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On May 19 2010 07:54 iEchoic wrote:
Honestly I kind of hate that you can spam hydras and zerglings and win. What is this, baby's first RTS?
Jesus, this game really is simplistic sometimes. Everyone in the plat leagues are doing this exact strat now and winning.
Then do something better and win. Or are you claiming it is unbeatable?
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On May 19 2010 08:20 Koffiegast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 07:54 iEchoic wrote:
Honestly I kind of hate that you can spam hydras and zerglings and win. What is this, baby's first RTS?
Jesus, this game really is simplistic sometimes. Everyone in the plat leagues are doing this exact strat now and winning. Let's be more realistic, what other options did Idra have? Hydra is the first unit (except queen) to actually hit air... mutalisks cost much more, while dps of hydra is better than muta..
I'm not attacking Idra, you should always do what is best for you to win the game. I think it shows that the state of Zerg is not where it should be, though.
On May 19 2010 08:24 nihlon wrote:
Then do something better and win. Or are you claiming it is unbeatable?
Definitely not unbeatable, but I think it is sort of disappointing to see plat leagues, let alone pro players spam one unit and win. It most definitely takes far more skill to counter than to execute.
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On May 19 2010 08:30 iEchoic wrote:
Definitely not unbeatable, but I think it is sort of disappointing to see plat leagues, let alone pro players spam one unit and win. It most definitely takes far more skill to counter than to execute.
lings and hydra, mutas in game 3. Insanely good scouting and perfect execution of everything he did. Drops, harassment, flanking, etc. I don't get how people relate this to "just spamming one unit and winning" It's not like he was A-moving those hydras as he brought Ovies forward to spew creep and dancing them to dodge force field entrapments.
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On May 19 2010 08:33 baconbits wrote:
lings and hydra, mutas in game 3. Insanely good scouting and perfect execution of everything he did. Drops, harassment, flanking, etc. I don't get how people relate this to "just spamming one unit and winning" It's not like he was A-moving those hydras as he brought Ovies forward to spew creep and dancing them to dodge force field entrapments.
Lings don't really count, every zerg player basically has to make lings, it's a given. Once he got hydras, the lings stopped being produced. But yeah, hydras and mutas, I guess. Not really all that impressive as NonY had to make about 5 different units.
Idra definitely executed flawlessly. Once again, I'm not downing on Idra or NonY, just commenting that one unit being so insanely dominant and well-rounded as the Hydra is a bit disappointing. I've played 5 zergs today and every one just massed Hydras.
This game's counter system is definitely confusing to a new SC player such as myself (I played AoE competitively). Some units seem to not really have effective counters (such as hydras) and instead you just have to mass more stuff. And then some units don't get countered by what their counters should be (i.e. vikings blow against mutas).
Game just makes little sense to me tbh, and sometimes it just seems like whoever masses more stuff wins, regardless what the opponent makes. I've never played an RTS before where a player can just mass shit and not care if you try to counter them... And still win.
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On May 19 2010 08:37 iEchoic wrote:
Not really all that impressive as NonY had to make about 5 different units.
And zerg only has, what, 9 different combat units? I agree, the lack of diversity is disappointing. It will be a long wait till the first expansion...
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On May 19 2010 08:37 iEchoic wrote:
Lings don't really count, every zerg player basically has to make lings, it's a given.
I put this in quotes, bolded, because it also explains your later complaint.
Idra definitely executed flawlessly. Once again, I'm not downing on Idra or NonY, just commenting that one unit being so insanely dominant and well-rounded as the Hydra is a bit disappointing. I've played 5 zergs today and every one just massed Hydras.
This game's counter system is definitely confusing to a new SC player such as myself (I played AoE competitively). Some units seem to not really have effective counters (such as hydras) and instead you just have to mass more stuff. And then some units don't get countered by what their counters should be (i.e. vikings blow against mutas).
Game just makes little sense to me tbh, and sometimes it just seems like whoever masses more stuff wins, regardless what the opponent makes. I've never played an RTS before where a player can just mass shit and not care if you try to counter them... And still win.
Quite frankly, massing Hydras is almost at that "every zerg player basicly has to make" status. They are the only quick response to air, and the only mid/early zerg unit with decent range. They are also one of the only zerg units that can stand up and fight as a main army unit.
I think I speak for most zerg players when I say I wish I COULD get away with using other units instead of Hydra, but in all honesty, our alternative choices are either poor or simply don't exist.
And there certainly are effective counters to Hydra, such as Colossus or HT's. You just can't get them out of a 4-gate push.
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On May 19 2010 05:49 travis wrote:
ok to the 5000 people who said it:
Nony said he made mistakes. He said he didn't play perfect. Not that he played badly. Anyone is liable to make mistakes when the opponent is bringing a level of game you aren't used to. Learn reading comprehension. Making mistakes is not the same as playing badly.
Nony did not play that badly, and he would have absolutely annihilated any of you by playing as good as he did.
But I never would have even posted anything had people not only said that Nony played badly, but then posted little lists of bullshit like they would have done it better in the game had they been playing. It's fine to be critical, but not when you don't even know what you're talking about.
Nony's ability to annihilate the average player even while playing bad has nothing to with whether or not he played badly that series. Judging from the mistakes that were made, I would say he played badly, that's my opinion, you're acting as if every one is an idiot because you disagree.
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I have just saw the game, jaw dropping. Nony with the upper hand in the micro area, but the macro area being too good (idra being godlike here), with not only having a big economy, but controlling the map flawlessly. He massed when the time was right, mixed units when it was right (that group of mutas defending the main base when that hydra drop ocurred, it was awesome) and knew nony' s steps, all the way. Completely deserved win, an awesome way to show the world that zerg, is not that weak as people say it is (just _maybe_ underdeveloped).
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On May 19 2010 09:30 Antoniuss wrote:
I have just saw the game, jaw dropping. Nony with the upper hand in the micro area, but the macro area being too good (idra being godlike here), with not only having a big economy, but controlling the map flawlessly. He massed when the time was right, mixed units when it was right (that group of mutas defending the main base when that hydra drop ocurred, it was awesome) and knew nony' s steps, all the way. Completely deserved win, an awesome way to show the world that zerg, is not that weak as people say it is (just _maybe_ underdeveloped).
people say zerg are weak? o.o
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Idra's performance in games 2 and 3 gave me nerdchills. too bad NonY better luck next time 
the final is going to so epic.
I wonder how TLO would have done against NonY, his zerg playstyle was very creative and ->IMO<- more entertaining to watch. and it beat whitera twice.
fingers crossed that he randoms zerg a couple times in the match for 3rd place =D. on that thought, which is going to be first? the final or match for 3rd?
PS: people like ChickenLips and DC elite make me lol irl :D
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4 carriers-5 phoenixes-2 collos, some zealots and stalkers.
all can be built off 2 bases in a relatively short time.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 19 2010 08:56 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 08:37 iEchoic wrote:
Lings don't really count, every zerg player basically has to make lings, it's a given.
I put this in quotes, bolded, because it also explains your later complaint. Show nested quote +Idra definitely executed flawlessly. Once again, I'm not downing on Idra or NonY, just commenting that one unit being so insanely dominant and well-rounded as the Hydra is a bit disappointing. I've played 5 zergs today and every one just massed Hydras.
This game's counter system is definitely confusing to a new SC player such as myself (I played AoE competitively). Some units seem to not really have effective counters (such as hydras) and instead you just have to mass more stuff. And then some units don't get countered by what their counters should be (i.e. vikings blow against mutas).
Game just makes little sense to me tbh, and sometimes it just seems like whoever masses more stuff wins, regardless what the opponent makes. I've never played an RTS before where a player can just mass shit and not care if you try to counter them... And still win.
Quite frankly, massing Hydras is almost at that "every zerg player basicly has to make" status. They are the only quick response to air, and the only mid/early zerg unit with decent range. They are also one of the only zerg units that can stand up and fight as a main army unit. I think I speak for most zerg players when I say I wish I COULD get away with using other units instead of Hydra, but in all honesty, our alternative choices are either poor or simply don't exist. And there certainly are effective counters to Hydra, such as Colossus or HT's. You just can't get them out of a 4-gate push.
Lolled at this ownage  So true, everybody thinks Z is OP because they refuse to adapt their own play. "If my 4 gate push dosent win me the game, Z is OP."
Zerg is a macro race, thats the ONLY thing they got going for them, but they do it well. (even though its hard to master as a player). P has much more bang for the buck + is a micro-race at its core, still people mass units, a-move and thinks they should win vs Z. If you cant beat masshydras you need to change your strat. HTs are way underused by Protoss.
You need to adapt during game. Following BOs you find in the forum is fine, but you still need to think on your feet, no one game is exactly like any other. There is a dynamic ingame, and if you refuse to recognise that and blindly do you own thing, fine. Just dont call the other cheater/imba/op everytime you loose, Because you will loose. Alot. And if you go blame/shame instead of realising your own errors, you will never learn.
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On May 19 2010 08:56 w_Ender_w wrote:
I think I speak for most zerg players when I say I wish I COULD get away with using other units instead of Hydra, but in all honesty, our alternative choices are either poor or simply don't exist.
Exactly... With the roach nerf, there's nothing really else that Zergs can do
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Cant remember game 1.
Game 2 was interesting with some usage of the phoenixes. I would have like Nony to try to expand while harassing with phoenixes and not push with his ground force, especially his second push which failed hard.
Game3 I really think idra played this one very well and with a touch of creativity. The colossi give to mutalisks was a huge mistakes.
On the lasts posts... I wonder what people want Zerg to do beside massing Hydras or Lings and maybe Roaches (but not that much lately...)... I mean it's not like there is a ton of units Zergs can do mid-game... Maybe add a infestor here and there but it is not alwas useful.
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On May 18 2010 06:42 LaLuSh wrote:
I was heavily relying on hydras the first weeks/month of the beta. I honestly think that the ZvP build I was using at that time was one of the best and safest builds available. I didn't have any problems against anyone ZvP. A non roach opening gives the zerg alot of freedom in terms of tech switching and mid game map control.
But that was only until...
They nerfed hydra firing rate. And protosses started using builds that included more than 3 gateways on 1 base. It could still hold 4gate on maps with moderate to long rush distances (with some effort).
Then they nerfed hydra hp. 5gate builds became nearly impossible to hold if you forgoed roaches. You need at least 7 spine crawlers to make it work. On maps like blistering sands and kulas, where there are destructible rocks you need twice the amount of spines. Holding a 4gate with a straight to hydra build is basically a coin flip.
I honestly don't think any expansion strategy with protoss has enough juice in it to punish a zerg that went for a roachless build. And I'm speaking from experience since I had to rethink and relearn my entire ZvP matchup after the hydra nerfs and after the naniwa-style of PvZ (5gate every game) became popular.
Relying on speedlings to carry you through the early game (without massive spine crawler use) is always a gamble.
It's ironic because if you put any skilless (relatively speaking) 5gating euro noob in this series he might've actually won.
I'm sure Idra would've reacted appropriately had he scouted the 5 gate all-in.
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On May 19 2010 15:38 s031720 wrote:Lolled at this ownage So true, everybody thinks Z is OP because they refuse to adapt their own play. "If my 4 gate push dosent win me the game, Z is OP."
Uh, what thread are you reading? Nobody is saying Z is OP...
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Idra just showed the power of keeping composure and macroing at all times. I really thought Nony had a great chance at winning on scrap station if he just left maybe a zel or two on the drone lines while focusing on sniping hydras.
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On May 19 2010 09:22 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 05:49 travis wrote:
ok to the 5000 people who said it:
Nony said he made mistakes. He said he didn't play perfect. Not that he played badly. Anyone is liable to make mistakes when the opponent is bringing a level of game you aren't used to. Learn reading comprehension. Making mistakes is not the same as playing badly.
Nony did not play that badly, and he would have absolutely annihilated any of you by playing as good as he did.
But I never would have even posted anything had people not only said that Nony played badly, but then posted little lists of bullshit like they would have done it better in the game had they been playing. It's fine to be critical, but not when you don't even know what you're talking about. Nony's ability to annihilate the average player even while playing bad has nothing to with whether or not he played badly that series. Judging from the mistakes that were made, I would say he played badly, that's my opinion, you're acting as if every one is an idiot because you disagree.
I have to agree. Nony made mistakes that equated to him playing badly. Now, of course he still played way way way better than I have and there's no way I could've done better, but there's no denying that he simply didn't play as well as he could have.
In pretty much all three of the games his expansion went up way too late, especially considering how he essentially knew Idra was a macro player doing the same build every game. He made micro and decision mistakes here and there but in the end, it was his macro that really lost him the games. Tbh, it was a rather disappointing series because we've all seen Nony play much, much better games.
That said, he's still one hell of a good player and I believe he already mentioned how he didn't get much practicing done for that match because of school and other matters of life. It can't be expected for him to play at his top form against one of the strongest Zerg players in the scene right now when Nony was stressed, tired, and barely able to have practiced.
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nony said earlier in the thread he made too many major mistakes while idra made none.. well, i think it's important that, idra has very few mistakes he could even make. as zerg, with great apm dedicated to solid macro, most major decisions are obvious.
would be interesting to see great macro/defensive play from a toss pro player facing idra.
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On May 19 2010 16:33 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 15:38 s031720 wrote:Lolled at this ownage So true, everybody thinks Z is OP because they refuse to adapt their own play. "If my 4 gate push dosent win me the game, Z is OP." Uh, what thread are you reading? Nobody is saying Z is OP...
On the countrary, everyone complaining about the masshydras are saying that Z (through Hydra) is OP. Its not.
Im sure soon Bl. will nerf hydras and Zerg will build only lings and blings. And then people who refuse to adapt their play will say that that is OP.
Pretty soon Z will be removed from the game. Rince and repeat with protoss. Then we are back at warcraft 2. Awesome!
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EPT
