|
The fact that I am posting right here right now, also proves that I am breathing. It also tells a lot of other things about me, my surroundings, my language, etc. etc. etc. If everyone thought like that we could close these strategy forums, as every event can only be viewed in its special context and timeframe..
Notice something? The things that you prove, are all about yourself. Tell me something about me from your post and that would be making a point.
Several individuals here are talking about imba race, changing the game, based in a match, in which the player who lost told that he made more mistakes than his rival.
Mistakes are not imbalance.
In order to prove imbalance in a game, you need several games, a tendency that pops out and need to be corrected a viable solution.
Here we have 3 matches of a series. Between 2 players on the same day.
Do i love Hydras "i'll just macro your ass" style? Well, kinda yes. But just because it works. I preffer much more the creative explorative gameplay of other players, I find that more entretaining, more related to the development and evolution of the game.
|
Expect more what? More creativeness? Pros are pros not from being creative. They are pros because they memorize every possible game situation and the best response and execute those responses with the best mechanics.
Creative people like TLO are very awesome to watch, but they are not Pro gamers. The Pro gamers will just incorporate any creative moves from other players into their repritoire and move on.
|
On May 18 2010 05:31 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:25 OneFierceZealot wrote:
@chicken
expect more as in how? i thought that pretty much everyone here agreed that idra kicked ass in this series... but then again there is always faggot ass haters like YoU, but i think its fair to expect more from such a person. While I feel compelled not to even waste my time responding to such a rude reply, I will write a few lines. I think I made clear in my original post, that I think that Idra was clearly dominating in regards to mechanics, he clearly knows his shit, with just an overall better economy, map control and decision making in terms of macro and timings. HOWEVER just seeing him go fast expansion, then trying to survive till hydras pop out, massing hydras and then just rolling over any army the opponent was able to muster up to that point, is not what I consider pro gaming, but that's probably just me as according to you "everyone" in here thinks Idra was kickass. With the amount of practice time he got, of course, there was nothing Nony could do, especially considering that he has uni and stuff. (see his comments after the game)
What do you consider "pro gaming"? Last I checked SC1 pros do what it takes to win too. Tell me, how many different strats do you see in SC1 progames? Do you see Flash doing a one base rush to ghosts, or doing tank+dropship micro Boxer style? No, he does similar shit almost every game because that's how you win. I'm trying to convince myself that everyone who whines about IdrA being too boring is just trolling...
|
On May 18 2010 05:31 ChickenLips wrote:
With the amount of practice time he got, of course, there was nothing Nony could do, especially considering that he has uni and stuff. (see his comments after the game)
nony had already proven you wrong on TSL2 when he whooped Idra's ass with the same uni and stuffs just 3 months ago. That game on Andromeda with the epic storms is the defining scene of nony's sc1 career!
oh wait almost forgot to mention, nony did that to idra after stop playing the game for like a year?
|
On May 18 2010 05:36 gREIFOCs wrote:Show nested quote +The fact that I am posting right here right now, also proves that I am breathing. It also tells a lot of other things about me, my surroundings, my language, etc. etc. etc. If everyone thought like that we could close these strategy forums, as every event can only be viewed in its special context and timeframe.. Notice something? The things that you prove, are all about yourself. Tell me something about me from your post and that would be making a point. Several individuals here are talking about imba race, changing the game, based in a match, in which the player who lost told that he made more mistakes than his rival. Mistakes are not imbalance. In order to prove imbalance in a game, you need several games, a tendency that pops out and need to be corrected a viable solution. Here we have 3 matches of a series. Between 2 players on the same day.
Yeah well, you are not really involved in the act of my posting, however I can deduce things about my PC, this message board, my fingers blablabla, Idra was playing zerg in the beta of SC2, so i can talk about all of these things. thank you.
I was not complaining about imbalance, I was expressing my disappointment to the boring shit Idra pulled off while still in the beta. Yeah big money, still doesn't justify monotonous play.
On May 18 2010 05:36 QuakerOats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:31 ChickenLips wrote:On May 18 2010 05:25 OneFierceZealot wrote:
@chicken
expect more as in how? i thought that pretty much everyone here agreed that idra kicked ass in this series... but then again there is always faggot ass haters like YoU, but i think its fair to expect more from such a person. While I feel compelled not to even waste my time responding to such a rude reply, I will write a few lines. I think I made clear in my original post, that I think that Idra was clearly dominating in regards to mechanics, he clearly knows his shit, with just an overall better economy, map control and decision making in terms of macro and timings. HOWEVER just seeing him go fast expansion, then trying to survive till hydras pop out, massing hydras and then just rolling over any army the opponent was able to muster up to that point, is not what I consider pro gaming, but that's probably just me as according to you "everyone" in here thinks Idra was kickass. With the amount of practice time he got, of course, there was nothing Nony could do, especially considering that he has uni and stuff. (see his comments after the game) What do you consider "pro gaming"? Last I checked SC1 pros do what it takes to win too. Tell me, how many different strats do you see in SC1 progames? Do you see Flash doing a one base rush to ghosts, or doing tank+dropship micro Boxer style? No, he does similar shit almost every game because that's how you win. I'm trying to convince myself that everyone who whines about IdrA being too boring is just trolling...
This isn't a game that has been played professionally for 10 years! This game literally just came into beta, I want to see the best of the best use their best imagination to come up with new stuff that makes the game more exciting, or did you see people just stick to a single build all the time in the beginning of Sc1? Hell no!
My point is that while I am certainly far far away from any position someone like Idra is in, I think that what is best for this game, for the community, the players, the balance etc. is for people to EXPERIMENT, not just throw down the hydra-hammer (or any other similiar build) no matter what
|
I'd imagine IdrA already did loads of experimenting and determined that making hydras is the best build, or at least the one that works for him. Do you think that, the day the game came out, he decided "I'm just gonna make a shitload of roaches" and by luck it happened to get him to the top of the Asia server? Then when they nerfed roaches he said "derrr hey lemme make more hydras now" and again, just by luck, that happened to kick ass too? IdrA plays this game all the time, I'm sure he's tried tons of stuff and crafted the builds he uses now because they gave him the best results. A tourney with cash prizes is not the time to be trying new strategies.
|
Just because you found it boring, does not mean other people found it boring. Honestly, 18k+ people toned into see IdrA vs. Nony. It is expected that a few will find it boring simply by statistical anomaly.
Right after the games, I saw many people on the forums praising IdrA's play and calling it epic, masterful, etc. This just goes out to show that you can't please everyone.
Honestly, Zerg is not, all things considered, a very creative race. If you want to blame someone for that, blame Blizzard.
|
Necessity, as the old saw goes, is the mother of invention.
Innovation is great if you can't see a way to beat the other guy with the old methods. That's part of the reason why TLO does so well. But innovation, by its very nature, isn't reliable. If you bust out a new, untried, revolutionary build or strat every game, one of them is going to turn out of be an epic fail, probably sooner than later. Especially vs a master-level player like Nony.
Hence why Idra is known for playing as he does: a standard, uninnovative, somewhat boring macro game executed very, very, very well. Because it works and it works reliably. Like friggin' clockwork. Which is what someone in Idra's position (high talent, vast amount of rehersal and practice time, huge financial incentive to win and win repeatedly) wants: a system of play that will allow him to reliably win games.
If you want innovation you are looking at the wrong player. Innovation is going to come either from players more out for fun, or from players who can't win vs the top tier using the reliable, 'conventional', proven builds and so go looking for a solution.
|
On May 18 2010 05:50 QuakerOats wrote:
I'd imagine IdrA already did loads of experimenting and determined that making hydras is the best build, or at least the one that works for him. Do you think that, the day the game came out, he decided "I'm just gonna make a shitload of roaches" and by luck it happened to get him to the top of the Asia server? Then when they nerfed roaches he said "derrr hey lemme make more hydras now" and again, just by luck, that happened to kick ass too? IdrA plays this game all the time, I'm sure he's tried tons of stuff and crafted the builds he uses now because they gave him the best results. A tourney with cash prizes is not the time to be trying new strategies.
You're disproving your own point. First you say that the games don't prove anything, now you're saying that Idra went with hydras all the time because it (seemingly) kicks ass all the time.
Which one is it, Idra boring / Zerg boring ?
|
On May 18 2010 05:51 Azarkon wrote:
Just because you found it boring, does not mean other people found it boring. Honestly, 18k+ people toned into see IdrA vs. Nony. It is expected that a few will find it boring simply by statistical anomaly.
Right after the games, I saw many people on the forums praising IdrA's play and calling it epic, masterful, etc. This just goes out to show that you can't please everyone.
Honestly, Zerg is not, all things considered, a very creative race. If you want to blame someone for that, blame Blizzard.
On May 18 2010 05:53 SpaceElvis wrote:
Necessity, as the old saw goes, is the mother of invention.
Innovation is great if you can't see a way to beat the other guy with the old methods. That's part of the reason why TLO does so well. But innovation, by its very nature, isn't reliable. If you bust out a new, untried, revolutionary build or strat every game, one of them is going to turn out of be an epic fail, probably sooner than later. Especially vs a master-level player like Nony.
Hence why Idra is known for playing as he does: a standard, uninnovative, somewhat boring macro game executed very, very, very well. Because it works and it works reliably. Like friggin' clockwork. Which is what someone in Idra's position (high talent, vast amount of rehersal and practice time, huge financial incentive to win and win repeatedly) wants: a system of play that will allow him to reliably win games.
If you want innovation you are looking at the wrong player. Innovation is going to come either from players more out for fun, or from players who can't win vs the top tier using the reliable, 'conventional', proven builds and so go looking for a solution.
Wow finally some sensible arguments itt. It was probably my fault to expect the stuff I have seen from TLO & others by someone like Idra, who is apparently notorious for his lack of innovation. If so, i apologize. 
Although I don't play Zerg, I would love to see some more - especialy early game - creative units for zerg, but I guess it's too late for that.
All things considered, Zerg is the swarm, so quantity > quality it seems.
|
There's obviously a place for both micro-oriented plays that are hugely unpredictable, and more predictable, but mechanically sound macro plays. One might be personally preferable to you, but that has no real bearing on which one is more effective.
Anyways, back to the original topic of NonY vs. IdrA, I really liked seeing a doom drop used in SC2, even though it wasn't quite a "doom" drop. Fast overlords seem underutilized, generally.
|
ChickenLips is a fantasy football coach who never played football but talks well.
|
|
|
If you want to see something creative go play the game and come up with something yourself.
These people are playing to win, are really good at the game, and are very fun to watch if you can keep up. I guess its easier to understand a strategy that hard counters something than why Idra won with hydra/ling.
|
I was heavily relying on hydras the first weeks/month of the beta. I honestly think that the ZvP build I was using at that time was one of the best and safest builds available. I didn't have any problems against anyone ZvP. A non roach opening gives the zerg alot of freedom in terms of tech switching and mid game map control.
But that was only until...
They nerfed hydra firing rate. And protosses started using builds that included more than 3 gateways on 1 base. It could still hold 4gate on maps with moderate to long rush distances (with some effort).
Then they nerfed hydra hp. 5gate builds became nearly impossible to hold if you forgoed roaches. You need at least 7 spine crawlers to make it work. On maps like blistering sands and kulas, where there are destructible rocks you need twice the amount of spines. Holding a 4gate with a straight to hydra build is basically a coin flip.
I honestly don't think any expansion strategy with protoss has enough juice in it to punish a zerg that went for a roachless build. And I'm speaking from experience since I had to rethink and relearn my entire ZvP matchup after the hydra nerfs and after the naniwa-style of PvZ (5gate every game) became popular.
Relying on speedlings to carry you through the early game (without massive spine crawler use) is always a gamble.
It's ironic because if you put any skilless (relatively speaking) 5gating euro noob in this series he might've actually won.
|
Based on recent tournaments, Naniwa seemed to have a lot of trouble with Dimaga/TLO's +1 speedling FE, but then he was playing under a pseudonym so maybe wasn't doing his usual 5 gate.
|
People will always hate on macro-type players, as they have over the past 10 years. Different people are impressed by different stuff, just deal with it (both sides).
|
On May 18 2010 02:39 niteReloaded wrote:
are there VODs of these games?
Yes
Game 1:
+ Show Spoiler +
Game 1 and a half:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO9yvw8K5NI
Enjoy!
I'll post the others when they are available here.
|
On May 18 2010 06:00 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:51 Azarkon wrote:
Just because you found it boring, does not mean other people found it boring. Honestly, 18k+ people toned into see IdrA vs. Nony. It is expected that a few will find it boring simply by statistical anomaly.
Right after the games, I saw many people on the forums praising IdrA's play and calling it epic, masterful, etc. This just goes out to show that you can't please everyone.
Honestly, Zerg is not, all things considered, a very creative race. If you want to blame someone for that, blame Blizzard. Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:53 SpaceElvis wrote:
Necessity, as the old saw goes, is the mother of invention.
Innovation is great if you can't see a way to beat the other guy with the old methods. That's part of the reason why TLO does so well. But innovation, by its very nature, isn't reliable. If you bust out a new, untried, revolutionary build or strat every game, one of them is going to turn out of be an epic fail, probably sooner than later. Especially vs a master-level player like Nony.
Hence why Idra is known for playing as he does: a standard, uninnovative, somewhat boring macro game executed very, very, very well. Because it works and it works reliably. Like friggin' clockwork. Which is what someone in Idra's position (high talent, vast amount of rehersal and practice time, huge financial incentive to win and win repeatedly) wants: a system of play that will allow him to reliably win games.
If you want innovation you are looking at the wrong player. Innovation is going to come either from players more out for fun, or from players who can't win vs the top tier using the reliable, 'conventional', proven builds and so go looking for a solution. Wow finally some sensible arguments itt. It was probably my fault to expect the stuff I have seen from TLO & others by someone like Idra, who is apparently notorious for his lack of innovation. If so, i apologize. Although I don't play Zerg, I would love to see some more - especialy early game - creative units for zerg, but I guess it's too late for that. All things considered, Zerg is the swarm, so quantity > quality it seems.
indeed, quantity > quality is the concept of zerg, I read a post a while ago that I thought was quite true, it went something like this:
The three races are all based to have different types of gameplay, and thus focus more strongly on certain points than others.
protoss: micro
its important for the protoss player to use the options available (storm, feedback, forcefield, hallucination etc.), since that is part of the balance, and, the protoss units are more powerful than the ordinary unit, but that also means they are more specialized, it is (normally) much more devestating for a protoss to lose a colossus before a fight, if he only had 3 than for a zerg to lose 2 infestors, where he also had 3.
terran: harass
terran easily have the most harass oriented units, banshees, medivac drops, reapers, vikings, etc. while the rest in the terran arsenal are defensive and/or high damage units, the fact that terran have such easy time to defend a base helps a lot aswell, these facts combined hints toward terran being a race where you sit back in your base and harass, harass, harass until the opponents economy is so damaged you can walk in and stomp all over his base.
zerg: macro
zerg is the swarm for a reason, zerg have the cheapest main building, which allows for easy expanding, as well as very short build times on their armyunits, making it very tempting as a zerg to spam drones until you see the opponent moving out and then try to get just enough emergency army to hold his push off, the concept of larvae also allow for extremely fast techswitches.
now, about your remark of more... creative, I guess, zerg play early game, theres really not much a zerg can do, early game the zerg have the following options:
1. expand
standard macro game, as is zerg specialty, impossible to be creative here
2. T1 rush
oooh, a cheese allin, how original... not
1. rush tech
to what? hive is a joke, no point in going for that so early, lair have the nydus worm, not very creative, its been used a lot, muta? thats just muta harass, nothing new, hydra? thats pretty standard, you cant call that creative, infestor? well, I have been thinking about this fun strategy where I put a couple infestors in an overlord and pop out like 16 infested terrans in his mineral lines, that would be interesting, I guess, but with proper micro the enemy wont lose much more than a bit of mining time.
aside from the infestor thing, ive only come up with one other thing which would be quite interesting, a baneling drop into his minerals, no big investment from your part, just get ovy speed and drop tech in different hatcheries so they will be finished about the same time (this will be wuite gas-intensive, make sure youve got enough), get a baneling nest, make 4 banelings, drop in his main and run them into his workerline, the ovy drop ability can easily be re-used later in the game for more harass, so it wont be like you got ovy drop tech just for those banelings, one game i managed to get 17 probes with those 4 banelings, is that cost effective or what? (btw, he had like 31 probes in his main and had 12 left when i finished)
btw, I play in silver league, 1200-ish, so my opponents isnt really all that great, most likely because of that this harass works so well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
