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Lol zerg is so terrible right now.
Basically speedling FE into fast hydra, mass hydras, attack.
Collect win vs Toss, loss vs Terran (loltanks)
Mutas get raped by literally everything. Roaches are just not efficient tanks at 2 supply. Banelings are not a very good investment since they're one time only. Infestors are ok I guess if the game drags on and you want to throw extra spice into your hydras. Corruptors are AtoA only..
ZvZ is speedling/baneling fest which is ridiculous since speedlings are so quirky to micro and so much can come down to luck with what the baneling explosions actually decide to connect with.
Zerg have no options, unless you're trying to do "cute stuff".
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Loller you kinda completely ignored the pwnige that is Broodlords. And I find mutas in large numbers are really quite strong, that ricochet attack really starts to own.
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On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push).
On May 17 2010 19:03 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 16:46 lopper wrote:
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?! Yeah who needs a variety of viable combat units when a pro player can win with 2? That sure makes the game more interesting! lololol.
On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build.
I like how everything seems so simple to you guys. You should go into ladder as Zerg and just get 2700 Platinum ez. All you need to do is FE and build 2 units.
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On May 18 2010 04:59 ChickenLips wrote:
so basically after roaches got nerfed, idra now goes 100% hydra everytime no matter what instead of roaches 100% no matter what?
impressive
PS.: with regards to mechanics, i have to admit, he was way better than Nony, but regarding innovation, ... wow zergling harass, who wouldve thought to use a T1 unit to attack the mineral lines early in the game, wow he used drop after he had the series basically won. It's just not what I want to see in the beta.
You opened mostly a few lings into a bunch of hydras in ZvP in BW a lot of the time too. I don't know what you're complaining about. Also he didn't go 100% hydra. Hydra was his main army but he had an overseer attached to the to kill scouting, he used OLs to drop, he used slings in all games, and mutas in the last. What more do people want?
Also it's not really pure "innovation" as you're pointing out, but there's been a lot of whining about how drops "aren't viable" as Z, but Idra has the proper mechanics to pull off things like a well timed sling harass --> hydra drop --> hydra pickup without losing his whole army whereas other players (usually the ones whining) claim this isn't possible.
His play was very polished with his timings and gamesense and that's what won it for him. With some refinement though I suspect Nony would have taken the second game.
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amdtwO:
Good post.
The game on Kulas ended prematurely as nony didnt wall off properly, so we nevergot to see them duke i tout.
The game on scrap yard was just a poor strategychoice from nony, yes his phoenixes kept popping drones but Idra (Hidra) simply built more than Nony could kill off, while at the same time massing his army and hunting the phoenixes down. Worker harass really isnt that effective against Z, esp. not a Z like Idra; and when Idra attacke ofcourse Nony had nothing to defend.
The Metalopolis game; in retrospect nony should not have split his army, but kept beeing defensive and macroed up on 2 bases. As P that is plenty.
And ofcourse through all the game Idra played flawlessly; he definately was creative in ways I guess only Z-players can appreciate since the rest of you simply dosent seem to understand the inherent limitations of the current Z. I was totally impressed bby Idras play, and even though I dont like BM in general, I can not underappreciate a player because of it. Idra vs Whitera will be epic.
(and its been along time since I heard any BM from Idra anyway)
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WoW game 3. Epic play by IdrA.
Awesome splitting of nonys forces. Perfect timings.
Much respect
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On May 17 2010 06:40 Sanitarium14 wrote:
NonY, Don't worry, We still Love you =D
Only because you are better looking than Idra ^____^ Oh what a superficial world we live in.
I don't think it was a doom drop. Idra's play was pretty good. It was like immortal drop, marauder drop, attack and pick up and continous harass until it ended the game. Something I have not seen in Idra's game O___O Is this start of the new Idra? no more 100% macroing+big battles O:
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The metagame is evolving. Zerg has now figured out some good timing with the 15 hatch and speedling for defense against the early gate rush.
Perhaps if toss scouts this now, rather than pushing with the early gate rush the Zerg is readying up for, you just ignore it and expand yourself and start on figuring out new strats.
I'd say putting down a photon or two and pumping zealots while saturating your expo will put you in good shape against the speedlings while you tech quickly into colossi. Anti air defense is your call. Stalker vs Phoenix? Phoenix would probably be better overall vs zerg but only if you're careful and put them to use.
I agree with Nony that we shouldn't judge the entire PvZ balance based on this series. Idra just played very solid.
Nony did make a few errors but still had solid high level play. But in this case, Idra obviously put in the hard work and training and the results speak for themselves.
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On May 17 2010 06:15 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I made a lot of mistakes in the first two games. I definitely wasn't executing as well as possible so I didn't do my ideas justice. As far as getting cross positions ZvP on Metalopolis... well, that's very difficult to play "normally". Anyway, I would advise not jumping to conclusions based on my series against IdrA because, in my opinion, it was pretty clearly just the case that IdrA wasn't making huge mistakes and I was.
i felt that you almost had the second game, NonY
if that harrass would have been a little bit better, the zerg would have crushed under the pressure
- i mean going for the drones in the 1st place -
i really like the phoenix strategy in PvZ and your control over them.
keep the good games comming,
i am starting a NonY-fan-club here in Romania if you do
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On May 18 2010 12:15 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push). Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 19:03 Lollersauce wrote:On May 17 2010 16:46 lopper wrote:
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?! Yeah who needs a variety of viable combat units when a pro player can win with 2? That sure makes the game more interesting! lololol. Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build. I like how everything seems so simple to you guys. You should go into ladder as Zerg and just get 2700 Platinum ez. All you need to do is FE and build 2 units.
Haters always gon hate. If you don't like Idra for BM, fine. But to diss his superb play? Now that's just nonsense.
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Oh man, you haters should list all the innovative and exciting tactics zerg can use. I'd love to see this.
Idra plays standard amazingly well, and that's how he wins games. I'd rather watch a standard game with amazing play than some "pro" reaper rush that wins the game in 5 minutes.
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On May 18 2010 04:59 ChickenLips wrote:
so basically after roaches got nerfed, idra now goes 100% hydra everytime no matter what instead of roaches 100% no matter what?
impressive
PS.: with regards to mechanics, i have to admit, he was way better than Nony, but regarding innovation, ... wow zergling harass, who wouldve thought to use a T1 unit to attack the mineral lines early in the game, wow he used drop after he had the series basically won. It's just not what I want to see in the beta.
this is literally the worst post i have ever read on this forum
i feel i should elaborate but it doesn't even deserve it
jesus
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I just watched the series on YouTube, I agree with NonY's conclusion; he just got outplayed. NonY made two-three crippling mistakes in game one and two, and game three IdrA's play was just on a whole other level.
It didn't help that all three maps they played were macro-maps perfetly suited to IdrA's playstyle.
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On May 18 2010 05:44 ChickenLips wrote:
This isn't a game that has been played professionally for 10 years! This game literally just came into beta, I want to see the best of the best use their best imagination to come up with new stuff that makes the game more exciting, or did you see people just stick to a single build all the time in the beginning of Sc1? Hell no!
My point is that while I am certainly far far away from any position someone like Idra is in, I think that what is best for this game, for the community, the players, the balance etc. is for people to EXPERIMENT, not just throw down the hydra-hammer (or any other similiar build) no matter what
How do you know he is not experimenting? Of course every good player experiments with their builds all the time but not in a tournament. Only idiots would do something like that and yes the people who suggest somebody do that are idiotic. This is true for all pro sports not just pro gaming. You always keep things simple and efficient so they do not break down under pressure.
You contradict yourself by saying the game is still young so you want to see a lot of variations. It is precisely because the game is young that not many standard builds have been discovered and that is why Idra used the one build that he thinks is the best at the moment. It takes years for players in BW to figure out standard builds (meaning even if they know it coming they can't flat out beat you unless they cheese) and you expecting Idra to have many efficient builds up his sleeves? You have to excuse people for not being as good as you are and do not have 5 killing builds in their pockets. Not to mention the fact that the race of Zerg really not allows many mix of units at the moment but this is an issue that needs to be discussed in other threads.
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I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't experiment in a Tourney with that kind of prize pool. It's not like Blizzard is paying the pro's to play.
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On May 18 2010 22:52 Entropic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 12:15 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push). On May 17 2010 19:03 Lollersauce wrote:On May 17 2010 16:46 lopper wrote:
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?! Yeah who needs a variety of viable combat units when a pro player can win with 2? That sure makes the game more interesting! lololol. On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build. I like how everything seems so simple to you guys. You should go into ladder as Zerg and just get 2700 Platinum ez. All you need to do is FE and build 2 units. Haters always gon hate. If you don't like Idra for BM, fine. But to diss his superb play? Now that's just nonsense.
Just to clarify. I wasn't blaming Idra for making 2 units, I'm glad he won. I was blaming Blizzard for balancing Zerg like such shit that we have literally 1 consistently usable viable unit atm. Which is the hydralisk.
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On May 19 2010 02:33 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 22:52 Entropic wrote:On May 18 2010 12:15 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push). On May 17 2010 19:03 Lollersauce wrote:On May 17 2010 16:46 lopper wrote:
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?! Yeah who needs a variety of viable combat units when a pro player can win with 2? That sure makes the game more interesting! lololol. On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build. I like how everything seems so simple to you guys. You should go into ladder as Zerg and just get 2700 Platinum ez. All you need to do is FE and build 2 units. Haters always gon hate. If you don't like Idra for BM, fine. But to diss his superb play? Now that's just nonsense. Just to clarify. I wasn't blaming Idra for making 2 units, I'm glad he won. I was blaming Blizzard for balancing Zerg like such shit that we have literally 1 consistently usable viable unit atm. Which is the hydralisk.
Yes, because speedlings, hydralisks, mutalisks, and clever use of drops are all grouped into "the hydralisk". Try reading this entire thread, as we've already refuted the argument that Idra *only* used one unit the entire set. And after that, maybe you could ACTUALLY watch the games that Idra played against Nony? When Nony makes phoenixes, do you expect Idra to make ultralisks? Or perhaps Idra should go corruptors against Nony's zealots? Duh?
And ChickenLips, this Idra vs. Nony set just showed that Idra can be very creative and won't always go for a dry "one unit for the whole game" build. That means that Zerg can be pretty versatile.
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Lol, mutalisks? How many mutalisks did you see?
Yes, Idra used speedlings as a diversion. I'm talking units that actually fight and don't straight up melt past tier1.
I'm not sure how overlord transport counts as a combat unit but hey, whatever floats your boat.
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On May 19 2010 02:53 Lollersauce wrote:
Lol, mutalisks? How many mutalisks did you see?
Yes, Idra used speedlings as a diversion. I'm talking units that actually fight and don't straight up melt past tier1.
I'm not sure how overlord transport counts as a combat unit but hey, whatever floats your boat.
1. Mutalisks were key to countering the collossi in the base elimination race in game 3. Hydralisks are not so good against them :-)
2. Speedlings WON the first game for Idra (run by into the main). How is that a mere diversion?
3. The doom drops in the main + the constant denial of expansions (by using speedlings, I might add) won game 3 as well.
QED.
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On May 19 2010 02:53 Lollersauce wrote:
Lol, mutalisks? How many mutalisks did you see?
I saw about 12 mutalisks, they singlehandedly killed 6 collossi, wtf games were you watching?!
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EPT
