EPTZerg Standard Build Order Overview - Page 4
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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lipebra
Brazil130 Posts
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zomgzergrush
United States923 Posts
That said, here's my two cents: Oversky build (ZvP) Popularized by oversky early in the hellogoodbye tourney. -13pool -15gas -16queen -@100gas, ling speed + pull drones off gas -18hatch -23ov Rally lings nearby toss choke, keep a small squad of ling further up to deny scout. @~36 ling, attack + nonstop ling production. Don't be afraid of zealot walls. Counters: any other tech build (robo, stargate, etc), any techless gateway zealot build. Countered by: fast warpgates (2-3 warpgates), forge openings, full wall-offs. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 30 2010 09:18 zomgzergrush wrote: + Show Spoiler + Your ZvT dimaga build (baneling bust) would be better optimized if you go 13p, 12g. Delaying gas that much can sometimes make you miss your timing window. Since you're all in, anyway, minerals are not of concern. Gas timing is. With 13p 12g you still have enough money to do speed and baneling nest on time + 5 blings right after nest completes. Don't forget to have lings ready to morph blings close to T choke. That said, here's my two cents: Oversky build (ZvP) Popularized by oversky early in the hellogoodbye tourney. -13pool -15gas -16queen -@100gas, ling speed + pull drones off gas -18hatch -23ov Rally lings nearby toss choke, keep a small squad of ling further up to deny scout. @~36 ling, attack + nonstop ling production. Don't be afraid of zealot walls. Counters: any other tech build (robo, stargate, etc), any techless gateway zealot build. Countered by: fast warpgates (2-3 warpgates), forge openings, full wall-offs. Awesome, thanks zomgzergrush. Your posts are usually pretty darn knowledgeable, from what I've seen. Adding it to the OP. On April 30 2010 08:46 lipebra wrote: Nice topic. Thanks! I try. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 30 2010 08:08 Wr3k wrote: In the ZvT build list for the 14pool 16 hatch I definitely wouldn't go pure roach/hydra/infestor vs MMM. Ling/Bling/Infestor will roll MMM's much harder. Roach/hydra just simply can't match MMM anymore without baneling support. If you just want to crush pushes theres no point in getting roach/hydra vs MMM. You want to start adding some hydra/roach in at some point, but banelings make MMM such a joke that not using them would be a bad idea. Roach/hydra is more of a counter to mech than MMM's. I'm inclined to agree. I find either Ling/Bling/Muta or Ling/Bling/Infestor to be far more effective and dynamic against MMM than Roach/Hydra unless you are at a HUGE macro advantage. | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
I figured it would be a bit repetitive to mention in both the "General" section AND for each race that 14 pool 16 hatch can work, since it's kind of implied. As far as 14 hatch being standard, I'm inclined to agree that it can work, but most posters disagreed with it's viability so I removed it for now. The 13 pool v 14 pool debate is still ongoing I believe. I think that 14 pool is more effective overall, especially with the extractor trick, but there are pros and cons of both. Maybe someone could do a write up on the choice. | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
Now, maybe the issue is that you are not skilled enough to hold off common cheeses with 14 pool, and you need to use 13 pool. This makes 13 pool your personal standard build order, but not the standard build order for zerg. Most users disagree with 14 hatches viability? Vs. P that certainly isn't true. If it were true, all it would mean is most users are not skilled enough to hold off a 2 gate proxy with 14 hatch, which is very possible and infact it's easier than with 14 pool 16 hatch, since you get 2 queens out much sooner and you have more larvae from 2 hatches for zerglings. There are instances where 14 pool 16 hatch is preferable, but this is mostly because of the possibility of close spawn and preserving the option to do a 1 base build or an in-base hatch build. Vs T it's basically the same story except you have to worry about reapers. In the case of reapers it's sometimes preferable to go 14 pool for the earlier queen.. but this is only situational and it's mainly a concern on reaper maps like LT or desert oasis. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 30 2010 14:19 cartoon]x wrote: + Show Spoiler + 13 pool is not the standard safe opener. 14 pool is completely safe. There is no cheese which beats 14 pool, not even 7 pool crawler rush. 14 pool even holds this off on steppes of war. I have tested it. Every pro uses 14 pool (Idra actually uses 15 pool), and I can't remember a replay where I saw 13 pool. There is literally no advantage to going 13 pool when you can go 14 pool. 13 pool offers no early aggression advantage over 14 pool - there is no attack window for 2 lings 15 seconds or so earlier. Now, maybe the issue is that you are not skilled enough to hold off common cheeses with 14 pool, and you need to use 13 pool. This makes 13 pool your personal standard build order, but not the standard build order for zerg. Most users disagree with 14 hatches viability? Vs. P that certainly isn't true. If it were true, all it would mean is most users are not skilled enough to hold off a 2 gate proxy with 14 hatch, which is very possible and infact it's easier than with 14 pool 16 hatch, since you get 2 queens out much sooner and you have more larvae from 2 hatches for zerglings. There are instances where 14 pool 16 hatch is preferable, but this is mostly because of the possibility of close spawn and preserving the option to do a 1 base build or an in-base hatch build. Vs T it's basically the same story except you have to worry about reapers. In the case of reapers it's sometimes preferable to go 14 pool for the earlier queen.. but this is only situational and it's mainly a concern on reaper maps like LT or desert oasis. I put it up there because it was suggested to me by multiple people in the thread, if you go back and read the last few pages (mostly from suggestion of Floophead, who I've seen post enough to respect his opinion). I personally 14 pool with the extractor trick at 10 unless I scout a VERY early pool (then I might Overpool), so like I said in the last post, I agree with you there. As far as how 'skilled' I am, we could always play some time, it's much easy then thinly disguised insults on a message board. Quite frankly though, I don't care. This is a thread for sharing build orders, not a "Hey look how awesome that guy Ender that noone has ever heard of is!" thread. By all means, if you think 14 Hatch is viable, please suggest a build order for me to put up there. | ||
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cartoon]x
United States606 Posts
14 hatch 13 pool 15 overlord 15 queen zerglings... queen at 2nd hatch... That's how you beat 2 gate. On close spawn LT, possibly on steppes, I think a 14 pool into a 1 base build or an in base hatch is the better build. Same with a close proxy 2 gate. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 30 2010 14:40 cartoon]x wrote: Here is a build order: 14 hatch 13 pool 15 overlord 15 queen zerglings... queen at 2nd hatch... That's how you beat 2 gate. On close spawn LT, possibly on steppes, I think a 14 pool into a 1 base build or an in base hatch is the better build. Same with a close proxy 2 gate. Alrighty I'll put it up there under the Zerg v Protoss section. Remember, the more specific the better, so if you recall any other details just let me know. | ||
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goszar
Belarus119 Posts
On April 30 2010 14:40 cartoon]x wrote: Here is a build order: 14 hatch 13 pool 15 overlord 15 queen zerglings... queen at 2nd hatch... That's how you beat 2 gate. On close spawn LT, possibly on steppes, I think a 14 pool into a 1 base build or an in base hatch is the better build. Same with a close proxy 2 gate. Hi cartoon]x. I'm very interested in your replays if you are in Platinum. Could you please share? Recently I have discovered that it is impossible to FE vs Protoss at all starting from my level (~1100 plat) and up to top tier player. I have tried everything and I lost every single game when trying to FE (I even do 14 pool 16-18 hatch, let alone suicide 14 hatch). Every single Protoss does 4gate all-in build these days, and they add immortals if I build too many spine crawlers. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
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Adeeler
United Kingdom764 Posts
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
 )I find it interesting that so many of you are playing a 13-14pool BO. Personally, I prefer an 8pool ling rush with an openended approach to what I do next: + Show Spoiler + 8drones (meanwhile: I like to b-line an overlord to the most likely spot for the enemy, off to the side slightly to avoid queens/marines/etc upon arrival, and I like to hotkey my hatchery to 1 for easy transition back to baseview) wait for 200minerals, then build pool while pool is building: 2 more drones then overlord, and wait for pool And magically, if you do this right, there will be a third larvae spawning just before your pool is done building, and exactly 150 minerals available... I then <A> ling rush (usually overlord has scouted out the enemy just before the lings are built). Now, while they're in transit, I try to build an extractor and replace the loss of the drone, and then build a queen (spamming larvae), 2 drones for the xtractor, and then upgrade to a lair asap. Based upon what the ling rush discovers and/or causes, I then either send more rushes or tech up and drone up. I'm a true believer that knowledge is power, and thus reacting to what an opponent is building is important, and ling rushing is a great way to not only cripple your opponent early on but to keep tabs on what he/she is planning. Regardless of whether you may think that this is "cheese", it's perfectly legal, makes sense, has pros/cons, and can be prevented against, regardless. I think a decent lingrush/tech build hybrid should be in every zerg players' repertoires. What do you guys think? | ||
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NiiPPLES
United Kingdom201 Posts
I 15 pool 15/14 expand every game, 13 pool is very early as far as I'm concerned. Come to think of it, I don't see any zerg players in tournies open with 13 pool standard either. 13 pool just isn't a very standard opening. | ||
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ROOTslush
Canada170 Posts
14 is. I open 14 pool in EVERY matchup. then i either fast expo or get gaz. | ||
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wonksaggin
United States73 Posts
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HelloSon
United States456 Posts
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AtlasJQ
Canada138 Posts
I do have a question though - what is the best transition point out of the speedlings once your opponent holds it off? Ie: you hold off the two gate but he has solidified a strong choke or something to that effect. Should you be looking to transition to lair tech around 30 supply? 40? Either way, very nice build order. Ty for posting it. | ||
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