On May 07 2010 04:05 DuncanIdaho wrote: Indeed Ema and Ender, the spice must flow...
But Yeah, like AtlasJQ said, voidrays are the bane of my existance as well (with vikings as a close second). What is the best counter? Corrupters/hydras/d-up on anti-air walker colonies? Also, I remember a nice combo from sc1:brood war where a defiler mixed with hydras were the best anti-air in the game, imo, and sadly our dark swarm and plague have gone byebye to be replaced by the infestor... By the way, in addition to the best vray counter, has anyone gotten infestors to be bad ass for them, and how? I still don't understand those things...
if ur having problems vs voidray its because ur not building enough queens. always scout even if u lose a slow ol doing it against toss. if u see the starports get 2 queens per base. they can infuse eachother ect. go for fast lair and hydra. problems solved. if ur really paranoid and are certain they are going air get 1 spore crawler behind each mining patch. make sure u spread ur creep with the second queens so u can chase voidrays. hydras completrely rape gateways builds anyways so going hydra vs protoss is usually a great idea.
I've been watching a lot of sen's VODs lately. Lately I've been doing 15 pool into 15/16 hatch openings but Sen's playstyle is just completely intriguing to me. He goes 11 pool, gets his queen and zerglings before even expanding. And then...he gets like 3-4 queens. I mean, not even against suspected void ray rushes or anything... It's almost default that he gets at least queens. He delays his lair a little bit as well, but I've seen him defend some pretty insane toss pushes with this opening.
On May 23 2010 07:36 Warrior Madness wrote: I've been watching a lot of sen's VODs lately. Lately I've been doing 15 pool into 15/16 hatch openings but Sen's playstyle is just completely intriguing to me. He goes 11 pool, gets his queen and zerglings before even expanding. And then...he gets like 3-4 queens. I mean, not even against suspected void ray rushes or anything... It's almost default that he gets at least queens. He delays his lair a little bit as well, but I've seen him defend some pretty insane toss pushes with this opening.
Anyone know what I'm talking about?
I haven't seen it yet, care to link or something? I'm very interested. Also a small new patch update: I've been having a ton of luck with 14 hatch/13 pool (hatch 1st) openings against Terran, and even against Protoss when I feel like Roaching.
On May 23 2010 07:36 Warrior Madness wrote: I've been watching a lot of sen's VODs lately. Lately I've been doing 15 pool into 15/16 hatch openings but Sen's playstyle is just completely intriguing to me. He goes 11 pool, gets his queen and zerglings before even expanding.
I've seen a few of his games too, and I was wondering why he did such an early pool, usually going for a 12 pool, but not going for a 12 overpool (double extractor trick to get to 12, overlord, pool, which is still faster than a 9OV 12Pool, and not economically behind).
Actually, I haven't seen much info about the 12 overpool (I'm assuming 12 pool, 11OV, 2nd extractor trick is inferior in most cases, just like 10 overpool is better than 10 pool, 9OV, drone).
Time to add queen roach build from daily #134. http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3743156/ it's an anti muta, anti baneling build. with a window for a roach timing push,
not sure how the build goes exactly; is there any links from a replay thread that anyone knows of?
I was just watching TLO's Zerg in the GLHF tournament against WhiteRa and he used another build. I don't have the actual replays, but I messed around in YABOT a bit and it looked like:
Drones to 10, Double extractor trick 12 Overlord 12 Pool 14-15 Overlord (I believe it was due to the spawn larva timing, not for the PSI)
At this point, he'd done some scouting and he will either hatch around 19-20 or he builds a Roach warren and extractor about this same time.
If he elects to 2 base, it seems to be about as good as a 14 pool 15 hatch with the added benefit you have more time to scout before making the decision. I'm not sure how fast this roach play is compared to other builds. I'd be really interested in seeing what the more experienced players think of this build compared to the 14 extractor/14 pool 1 base opener or a 14 pool 15 hatch.
Also, I took another look at the mass queen opener from the day9 daily and this was what I came up with:
15 Hatch 16 Pool 15 Overlord Drone to 18 When pool spawns you have enough to make a queen in each hatch plus 6 zerglings and the two spore crawlers.
If I cut out the crawlers, this build seems to be very similar to the TLO build. I used YABOT on LT timing until the 3 minute mark and was able to make about the same amount of zerglings when the zealot harass showed up. I'm trying to time roughly to figure out which opener will work the strongest against the 2 gate opener used by TesteR to completely dominate idra in the TL invitational. That seems to be the most dangerous Protoss opener as it sets up a great economy but still allows for a lot of early pressure.
ZvP LaLush Build (Overpool, Early Lair) - Excellent against Immortal timing push/Void ray harass
10 Overpool Scout with 11th drone. 13 Queen / 6 lings 18 Overlord/Extractor 20 Hatch at natural 25 Overlord 28 Lair (1st 100 gas) 2nd Gas at 2/3 Lair pump Hydras to defend the push
From this point on many of the variations depending on what you have scouted have been heavily discussed in TL's strategy posts ^ (this part is not necessary. it's a BO, not a cradle-to-grave strategy. the fact that it will fork is a given)
On August 08 2010 04:26 JeriKu wrote: I apologize but..
What is the "Double Extractor Trick"?
The extractor trick but done with an additional drone/extractor. For example, if you're at 10/10 pop:
1) Send two drones to make two extractors. 2) Pump two additional units while you're at 8/10 pop. 3) Cancel both extractors. You are now at 12/10 pop.
I just realized this thread was fairly old.
Does this trick still work though?
Certainly works, but it's questionable if it produces additional benefit (economy- or unit-wise) beyond a simple 9 overlord start. There were a number of threads analyzing the benefits of these sorts of openers and the consensus was that 9 overlord is superior from a practical perspective. I don't recall if the double extractor trick was analyzed, though.
For ZvZ, I've been using a build similiar to the AntiSpeedling build you got there. Keep in mind I'm still experimenting with it.
14 Pool 13 Gas 16 Ovie 16 Queen + 1 Ling At around 18-19 Roach Warren, Ovie After Roach Warren pops, make 7 Roaches; you should be somewhere around the 33-34/34 mark. Hatch at Natural after that.
I find that this allows me to enter the Lair Mid-Game faster than the opponent usually, while being able to make Roaches if they keep up pressure. Then from there on it's MassMuta wars.
EPT
