So now that I'm one of those silly Platinum players (thanks mainly to TL and livestream, since I'd never really played much SC1 beyond UMS games as a kid) I thought it was about time to define and refine my build orders.
So that's what I'd like to see in this here thread; I'm going to try to compile the current 'standard' build orders versus each race. Liquipedia seems to be lacking in content thus far, so I figure if we can come together and get some of these build orders down it will go a long way to adding some much needed content to what should be a very useful tool. I'll start, and edit in updates as more of you fine gentlemen add yours.
Please feel free to add in your own 'standard' play build orders and discuss when they are useful
GENERAL INFORMATION: Common economic openings include: 13 Pool 15 Hatch 14 Pool 16 Hatch 15 Pool 16 Hatch (the "Idra")
SPECIFIC BO's:
Zerg v Zerg 13 Pool Roach/Baneling - Anti-Speedling build + Show Spoiler +
13 pool (ideally) 12-14(not tested accurately) extractor 16 queen 17 extractor trick lings 18 roach warren 17 baneling nest get a few roaches, morph the first couple lings into banelings.
This build will essentially **** on any mass ling builds, as the couple banelings worked in will reduce any all-in that could possibly come at that point to a number much more easily managed by a pittance of roaches. The timings aren't perfect, since I haven't tested this beyond seeing it hold off mass ling, but the essentials of the idea are there. Any panic lings built early on can easily be converted to banelings, and you can take a second with relative comfort. Plus you've now got roaches.
Bo is something like 13Pool 14Gas 16Queen Overlord Speed then throw down a baneling nest. Pump lings until you get a decent amount, convert some to banelings. Works great if you have a greater ling force then him after you morph your banelings, then you can run your banelings into his mineral line. Or, you can just run them in first and try and take out half his army before you run yours in.
10 Extractor Trick and use the 11th drone to scout 10 Overpool (Overlord then Pool) 13 Drones 14 Extractor 14 Lings 15 Queen 17-18 Lings Lair with first 100 gas
Then be aggressive with first 6 lings. If your opponent goes for FE you should be able to take it out with first 6 lings plus some reinforcements. If your opponent doesn't go 1 Base Roach all-in the then expand with 1-2 spine crawlers. Play defensively but try to snipe his expo if possible.
If your opponent is going FE with roaches then you will need to throw down a Roach Warren to match him. Hopefully you got your expo up first. If the map is Kulas Ravine try and steal the gold expo without your opponent knowing.
Mid-game you have 2 options. Mutas or hydras. If you go Mutas basically you need to expand again while denying your opponent any more expansions in order to win. You win by map control. If you go hydras, scout your opponent. If he goes Mutas make sure to put up 2 spore crawlers per base, sit back and keep producing Hydras, because in a straight-up fight your hydras will win. If he is also going hydras, then get +1/+1 and try to out macro him. Eventually you will gain enough of an economic advantage to win the game.
Basically ZvZ is a game of each player trying to secure the higher advantage. If you manage to get an expo and hold it, you will win if your opponent doesn't have one (obviously).
Zerg v Protoss LaLush Build (Overpool, Early Lair) - Excellent against Immortal timing push/Void ray harass + Show Spoiler +
10 Overpool 11/18 scout Drones to 13/18 13/18 4 Lings/Queen 17/18 Lings 18/18 Overlord/Extractor 17/18 Drone 20/26 Hatch at natural 25/26 Overlord 28/34 Lair (1st 100 gas) 2nd Gas at 2/3 Lair Hydra den once lair finishes, pump Hydras to defend the push
From this point on many of the variations depending on what you have scouted have been heavily discussed in TL's strategy posts
8 Pool 7 Drone 8 Drone 9 Overlord 9 Zergling 10 Zergling 11 Zergling 12 Zergling Send all your Zerglings as soon as possible to the Protoss base 13 Drone 14 Queen 16 Overlord 16 Drone 17 Drone 18 Roach Warren 17 Extractor 16-24 Drone 24 Overlord 24 Hatchery 24-28 Roach The general benefits are this: You don't have to scout initially, your zerglings will be there before it would matter anyway.
It gives you a big advantage vs 13 gate and 13 pool, since 8 zerglings is enough to kill the one zealot and then either the pylon on the gateway or a bunch of probes. Vs Zerg, if you micro correctly, you can easily kill 8 zerglings with your 8 zerglings and only losing one or two, and then you wipe out their queen. This puts them massively behind.
Oversky build (ZvP) - Popularized by oversky early in the hellogoodbye tourney. (13p Ling pressure) + Show Spoiler +
-13pool -15gas -16queen -@100gas, ling speed + pull drones off gas -18hatch -23ov
Rally lings nearby toss choke, keep a small squad of ling further up to deny scout. @~36 ling, attack + nonstop ling production. Don't be afraid of zealot walls.
Counters: any other tech build (robo, stargate, etc), any techless gateway zealot build. Countered by: fast warpgates (2-3 warpgates), forge openings, full wall-offs.
14 hatch 13 pool 15 overlord 15 queen Zerglings... queen at 2nd hatch... That's how you beat 2 gate. On close spawn LT, possibly on steppes, he thinks a 14 pool into a 1 base build or an in base hatch is the better build; same with a close proxy 2 gate.
14 pool 16 hatch 15 ovi 15 extractor 16 Queen Next queen builds on same hatch as first, as your second hatch will not be finished,walk first queen to second hatch after injecting larve, it should arrive close to when second hatch completes with almost enough energy for another inject larve. If you scout starports, build extra queens and fast lair tech to hydras. ELSE first 100 gas to speedlings (counters reaver, helion harass pretty well)
I have found 2 hatch >> 1 lair vs Terran.
Do not be too quick to fill up your gas to early, you should be focused on drones and speedlings since it is important to keep up with the Terrans very easy mode macro (damn mules).
Speedlings are not really hard countered by anything except by a large MM ball or air, they should give you enough map control to saturate your FE safety.
From here its up to the Terran player, they have a lot of options. Scout. React. Win. vs MMM- roach hydra infestor (fungal growth) vs mech- Muta/Roach/infestor (in the case of thors only, remember strike cannons work great on other thors vs Starport- hydra
Dimaga Baneling Break - can end games before the 8 minute mark if the Terran wall is standard + Show Spoiler +
14 Pool 13 Gas 15 Overlord 15 Queen/Lings Nothing but Ling production from this point until the break hits First 100 gas to ling speed next 50 gas to Bling Create 6 Banelings as soon as possible and hit his supply depots at his wall with them, then run the speedlings into his base through the breach
(scout on 9) 13 pool 14 hatch 13 gas 16 queen 18 extractor trick 17 one set of lings 18 roach warren (timings from here on out are in queen larva cycles 1-1 would mean queen 1, cycle 1) 1-1: 0-7 roaches, 0-7 drones, depending on ling/overlord scouting Queen #2 from other hatch 1-2: drones Lair after first cycle of drones 3 extractors up now, put 2 in each extractor (means pulling the third from the 1st extractor) 1-3/2-1: ideally these are more drones, and you fully saturate all extractors. Depends on scout though, these can be turned into enough roaches to ostensibly keep you alive) 1-4/2-2: get a spire out as soon as you get the double-cycle of drones
Ze Midgame Spire pops: build 2 Corrupters and as many Mutas as your gas buildup allows. The reasoning behind the Corrupters is their ability to disable buildings. Mutas suffer a *lot* in SC2 from static defense, mainly because said static defense (in the case of T and P) has received a substantial HP increase. Terran Turrets also do a lot of damage to muta harass. I've had games where the terran found a way to scout the spire and was able to get a couple of turrets down. I found that it pretty much shut the mutas down. With corrupters, the static defense gets nullified long enough to make the harass effective, accomplishing what the Terran could otherwise almost ignore with proper turret placement.
If the Terran didn't scout, the Corrupters still aren't wasted, as they can take a couple pot shots at other production buildings in the mean time, then do their proper job on a return trip later in the game. And hey, if there aren't turrets in the first round of harass, then your 5-6 mutas are still having a hey-day in the mineral line.
From this point on I would ostensibly use 1-5/2-3 and 1-6/2-4 on roaches in order to repel any panic all-ins, timing pushes, and to just generally get some ground dominance once the air superiority has been set up. The third hatch should then follow asap, followed by another round of mutas and another corrupter. The corrupters enable the mutas to pose a significant threat to an unguarded base, and I've found that they overall just increase the power of mutas by a lot.
Concerns involve early game harassment and fast banshees. early game harassment can simply be defended with your choice of spine crawlers or lings. Fast banshees tend to get shut down hard by well placed spore crawlers, so respond accordingly to your scouting information.
Alright, there's one for each match up to start with. Please reply with more of your fantastic build orders. I'll add any of them that work at the Platinum level (not to be an elitist or anything, but simply to cut down on the number of builds that I'll have to look at). I'll check every build submitted into this thread, and try to add them to the OP (or remove them if they are too cheesy or simply don't work).
I'm particularly looking for standard BO's against the standard Terran Bio, Terran Mech, and Protoss gateway pressure, in addition to a Roach ZvZ build.
Extra points if your BO's include Infestor usage
I'll also try to make each of the BO's into an image that can be easily saved or referenced eventually, if this thread actually gets a number of replies.
Edits: Thanks, keep them coming! And keep commenting on other builds, with the caveat that if you comment, please either suggest a change or suggest an alternative! Thanks guys!
On April 29 2010 12:08 Jeuh wrote: I've been looking for this, thanks a ton! really helpful as i've been struggling quite a bit with just having a solid opening.
No problem, I feel like a lot of people must be in the same boat. The three I put up so far are by no means the only openings, nor should they be used every time (especially not the Baneling break, if he knows how to stop it he can stop it HARD with the right wall).
Hopefully we will get a lot of community collaboration and we can get a real solid compendium of BO's going :D
Can your ZvsZ build handle a ling rush from a pool at 10 supply or earlier? Seems like it would have a tough time vs 10 pool and be completely screwed vs anything earlier. But this is coming from a Silver player. Currently when I draw ZvsZ I am usually doing a 13 pool, and even then a 7-9 pool is trouble.
Good post. However, I'm not sure how viable the zvz build you have is. I'm a mid-ranked plat player so I'm not much of an authority to talk; however, 14 hatch openings will pretty much instant lose to a 6pool or 10pool on every map i can think of. I could be wrong, but i never open with 14 hatch in zvz because it is too risky.
On April 29 2010 12:15 HCastorp wrote: Can your ZvsZ build handle a ling rush from a pool at 10 supply or earlier? Seems like it would have a tough time vs 10 pool and be completely screwed vs anything earlier. But this is coming from a Silver player. Currently when I draw ZvsZ I am usually doing a 13 pool, and even then a 7-9 pool is trouble.
Any 6 or 8 Pool might be a bit sketchy to deal with. 10 should be fine, since the 14 pool really doesn't come THAT much later than a 13 pool. Honestly, ZvZ I make a habit of scouting pretty darn early, so if I see some sort of 6 or 8 pool cheese I can do a 10 Overpool, or even a 13 pool instead of 14 Hatch. A big part of selecting your build beyond the 10 supply mark is scouting.
On April 29 2010 12:17 Onea wrote: Good post. However, I'm not sure how viable the zvz build you have is. I'm a mid-ranked plat player so I'm not much of an authority to talk; however, 14 hatch openings will pretty much instant lose to a 6pool or 10pool on every map i can think of. I could be wrong, but i never open with 14 hatch in zvz because it is too risky.
Yeah, 10 pool can be a bit sketchy on smaller maps. Like I said, scouting is always key no matter what the BO or what the MU. Always have a plan if you scout early cheese. The ZvZ Speedling build is primarily designed to combat 1 base Roach by overpowering with Lings early, or teching to Muta once you have him contained. It also works quite well against any FE Roach build.
But if you don't think it works, please share your build? That's what this thread is for, after all. I would love to add more ZvZ openings up there. =D
14 hatch zvz is extremely risky and usually a losing game. Even early expands are usually too risky. I would take that away it won't work at high level except as a BO win vs someone trying a 15 pool. All zvz builds should stem from the 13 pool since that is the safest pool timing that is good economically.
On April 29 2010 12:20 Floophead_III wrote: 14 hatch zvz is extremely risky and usually a losing game. Even early expands are usually too risky. I would take that away it won't work at high level except as a BO win vs someone trying a 15 pool. All zvz builds should stem from the 13 pool since that is the safest pool timing that is good economically.
Alright, let me edit my OP and I'll make a note. Feel free to share a build stemming from 13 pool.
On April 29 2010 12:08 Jeuh wrote: I've been looking for this, thanks a ton! really helpful as i've been struggling quite a bit with just having a solid opening.
I wouldn't call these solid openings. You can use the ZvP one, but the ZvT is just an all-in and the ZvZ is far from... good. You need to have something in mind if you plan on opening with speedlings. If they win you the game, your opponent wasn't up to snuff.
I agree with the above poster in the regard that the ZvT and ZvZ build aren't solid. The ZvT is just all-in, and the ZvZ is just very unstable as there's a number of common zerg openings and followups that will crush it.
They are just examples, gentlemen. If you call one of them not solid, please suggest an alternative so I can put it up there.
Common and specific, rather, in the vein of what I posted. Not just "13 pool, go from there" but specifically what you do and what your goals are. Do you 13 pool, look for a FE then go Roach/Hydra? How? Muta/Bling/Zling against Terran Bio? How do you open to get there? That kind of stuff.
I've got two reasonable build orders, one ZvT and one ZvZ. The ZvT is more a mid-game type build, with pretty much any opener that will lead to a saturated 2 bases.
(scout on 9) 13 pool 14 hatch 13 gas 16 queen 18 extractor trick 17 one set of lings 18 roach warren (timings from here on out are in queen larva cycles 1-1 would mean queen 1, cycle 1) 1-1: 0-7 roaches, 0-7 drones, depending on ling/overlord scouting Queen #2 from other hatch 1-2: drones Lair after first cycle of drones 3 extractors up now, put 2 in each extractor (means pulling the third from the 1st extractor) 1-3/2-1: ideally these are more drones, and you fully saturate all extractors. Depends on scout though, these can be turned into enough roaches to ostensibly keep you alive) 1-4/2-2: get a spire out as soon as you get the double-cycle of drones
Ze Midgame Spire pops: build 2 Corrupters and as many Mutas as your gas buildup allows. The reasoning behind the Corrupters is their ability to disable buildings. Mutas suffer a *lot* in SC2 from static defense, mainly because said static defense (in the case of T and P) has received a substantial HP increase. Terran Turrets also do a lot of damage to muta harass. I've had games where the terran found a way to scout the spire and was able to get a couple of turrets down. I found that it pretty much shut the mutas down. With corrupters, the static defense gets nullified long enough to make the harass effective, accomplishing what the Terran could otherwise almost ignore with proper turret placement.
If the Terran didn't scout, the Corrupters still aren't wasted, as they can take a couple pot shots at other production buildings in the mean time, then do their proper job on a return trip later in the game. And hey, if there aren't turrets in the first round of harass, then your 5-6 mutas are still having a hey-day in the mineral line.
From this point on I would ostensibly use 1-5/2-3 and 1-6/2-4 on roaches in order to repel any panic all-ins, timing pushes, and to just generally get some ground dominance once the air superiority has been set up. The third hatch should then follow asap, followed by another round of mutas and another corrupter. The corrupters enable the mutas to pose a significant threat to an unguarded base, and I've found that they overall just increase the power of mutas by a lot.
Concerns involve early game harassment and fast banshees. early game harassment can simply be defended with your choice of spine crawlers or lings. Fast banshees tend to get shut down hard by well placed spore crawlers, so respond accordingly to your scouting information.
9 scout, pool if you see a pool (don't know if that's a standard response, I could just be a scrub) 13 pool (ideally) 12-14(not tested accurately) extractor 16 queen 17 extractor trick lings 18 roach warren 17 baneling nest get a few roaches, morph the first couple lings into banelings.
This build will essentially shit on any mass ling builds, as the couple banelings worked in will reduce any all-in that could possibly come at that point to a number much more easily managed by a pittance of roaches. The timings aren't perfect, since I haven't tested this beyond seeing it hold off mass ling, but the essentials of the idea are there. Any panic lings built early on can easily be converted to banelings, and you can take a second with relative comfort. Plus you've now got roaches.
As a pretty high ranked Z plat player, I would never go with a 14 hatch build.
I also do not believe a zerg should stay on 1base for any reason, it limits production by way too much, and limits your options. With one hatch, it is impossible to make it to the mid game if you require a ling heavy build, say if your opponent was massing stalkers/roaches/marauders, you just will not have enough larve to effectively mass lings while droneing.
I usually go 13 pool 15 hatch or 14 pool 16 hatch depending on the map. Currently the name of the game is the speedling-baneling-roach triangle, which can be tricky. Currently I am starting with speedlings, making sure to attack my opponent first giving me time to retreat and possibly tech switch. If I see roaches, I make sure to get +1 attack +1 armor (roaches with +1 attacking speedlings without +1 amor kill the speedling in 2 shots instead of 3). If I see speedlings I make sure to throw down a banelings nest. If I see banelings I throw down a roach warren.
my BO is not solid, I usually play a general opening and adapt based on scouting, but I am looking for some good ones. I hope that Liquipedia will get alot more detailed soon ^^, You should probably add some of these builds to it if you have time.
EDIT: If both players manage to escape the early game without one player destroying the others economy ( maybe 2/5 games for me get to this point) , the metagame usually progresses to a new triangle, that of roach hydra and muta's. Roaches with burrow can own hydras, (Its surprising how many zerg players still forget to upgrade and overseer, even at top levels of play), Hydras can own mutas -as long as there are a sufficient number- big muta balls can decimate small numbers of hydras. and of course roaches cant attack mutas.
I have found infestors to be quite worthless in ZvZ due to the fact that the zerg has no Collosi/Thor equivalent (please don't bring up Ultra), fungal growth barely shakes the knees of roaches, and is nearly worthless vs hydras due to their very good range. The only use I could think of would be to stop any banelings from getting too close to your hydras, as this ability would theoretically one shot both lings and blings.
Yep guys, the plan is definately to add all these to Liquipedia as soon as I both have a chance and have a bunch of you all suggesting them. Gonna do some editing now to the OP to add these on there. Thanks, keep them coming! And keep commenting on other builds, with the caveat that if you comment, please either suggest a change or suggest an alternative! Thanks guys!
I'm a Platinum zerg. I'd recommend if you have not already, introducing a Speedling/Baneling build order into your ZvZ matchup.
Bo is something like 13Pool 14Gas 16Queen Lord Speed then throw down a baneling nest. Pump lings until you get a decent amount, convert some to banelings. Works great if you have a greater ling force then him after you morph your banelings, then you can run your banelings into his mineral line. Or, you can just run them in first and try and take out half his army before you run yours in.
Have had alot of success with this, probally 80% win rate with it atm. Props to attero(stole it from him
On April 29 2010 12:58 Templar. wrote: I'm a Platinum zerg. I'd recommend if you have not already, introducing a Speedling/Baneling build order into your ZvZ matchup.
Bo is something like 13Pool 14Gas 16Queen Lord Speed then throw down a baneling nest. Pump lings until you get a decent amount, convert some to banelings. Works great if you have a greater ling force then him after you morph your banelings, then you can run your banelings into his mineral line. Or, you can just run them in first and try and take out half his army before you run yours in.
The problem with this build is if the opponent expands, and lays down a minimal amount of spine-crawlers, with a minimal amount of banelings, you can get very behind very early. With 1 crawler in the mineral line, a simple "A" attack wont work, as the lings will automatically target the crawler instead of the workers. If you try and power down the crawler, your very open to enemy banelings, which I like to hide behind my mineral line. Of course, at this point in the game better micro will usually win outright, regardless of BO. The only for sure way to lose is to go too early banelings, and find roaches knocking on your door.
On April 29 2010 12:58 Templar. wrote: I'm a Platinum zerg. I'd recommend if you have not already, introducing a Speedling/Baneling build order into your ZvZ matchup.
Bo is something like 13Pool 14Gas 16Queen Lord Speed then throw down a baneling nest. Pump lings until you get a decent amount, convert some to banelings. Works great if you have a greater ling force then him after you morph your banelings, then you can run your banelings into his mineral line. Or, you can just run them in first and try and take out half his army before you run yours in.
The problem with this build is if the opponent expands, and lays down a minimal amount of spine-crawlers, with a minimal amount of banelings, you can get very behind very early. With 1 crawler in the mineral line, a simple "A" attack wont work, as the lings will automatically target the crawler instead of the workers. If you try and power down the crawler, your very open to enemy banelings, which I like to hide behind my mineral line. Of course, at this point in the game better micro will usually win outright, regardless of BO. The only for sure way to lose is to go too early banelings, and find roaches knocking on your door.
i've never had a problem with this yet, if they decide to go for a spine crawler that means either they have less lings or less drones so there econ is worse. Besides, on maps with open naturals/chokes you can just run your lings past the crawler and into his base. Maybe i'll post a replay or two later on, but I actually don't think i've ever lost a zvz except for once against this exact bo lol.(while in platinum league)
On April 29 2010 12:58 Templar. wrote: I'm a Platinum zerg. I'd recommend if you have not already, introducing a Speedling/Baneling build order into your ZvZ matchup.
Bo is something like 13Pool 14Gas 16Queen Lord Speed then throw down a baneling nest. Pump lings until you get a decent amount, convert some to banelings. Works great if you have a greater ling force then him after you morph your banelings, then you can run your banelings into his mineral line. Or, you can just run them in first and try and take out half his army before you run yours in.
The problem with this build is if the opponent expands, and lays down a minimal amount of spine-crawlers, with a minimal amount of banelings, you can get very behind very early. With 1 crawler in the mineral line, a simple "A" attack wont work, as the lings will automatically target the crawler instead of the workers. If you try and power down the crawler, your very open to enemy banelings, which I like to hide behind my mineral line. Of course, at this point in the game better micro will usually win outright, regardless of BO. The only for sure way to lose is to go too early banelings, and find roaches knocking on your door.
i've never had a problem with this yet, if they decide to go for a spine crawler that means either they have less lings or less drones so there econ is worse. Besides, on maps with open naturals/chokes you can just run your lings past the crawler and into his base. Maybe i'll post a replay or two later on, but I actually don't think i've ever lost a zvz except for once against this exact bo lol.(while in platinum league)
I'd like to see the replay, I have had a lot of success with 1 crawler in each mineral line and ~2 banelings behind each line, and of course a handful of lings to mop up anything remaining. I only do this strategy If I scout a 1 base ling build, it is defensive and plays off the fact that if you survive the first couple minutes the opponent will fall behind as he will not be able to produce lings as fast as you due to being stuck on one hatch, providing an easy win.
Thanks for the submission. I added it up there for now, but please keep discussing it and of course replays are always welcome. How well does it deal with the common Roach builds?
I think 13 pool is a bit aggressive unless you need to deal with early pressure... 14pool 16hatch has worked in every matchup for me, and 14hatch 14pool is map dependent - I've tried it a few times and haven't been punished. I think Z should sac an ovie if necessary and respond entirely to what the opponent is doing. I tend to head for lair as quickly as safely possible, get hydras or roaches fast as the situation warrants and move into the midgame with a hydra/roach as the backbone of my army. The rest depends on my opponent
On April 29 2010 13:29 w_Ender_w wrote: @Templar, Balor
Thanks for the submission. I added it up there for now, but please keep discussing it and of course replays are always welcome. How well does it deal with the common Roach builds?
Possibly Templar has had a seen differently, but Ive always lost if I throw down a baneling nest and my opponent opts for 1 base roach. Of course the you should be able to scout a 1 base roach easily, he will not have sufficient lings to stop you from getting your first 2 lings into his base, and once you see the roach warren, you should probably forget about banelings all together.
EDIT: Also, the major major major defeat of this build is that 2-3 roaches can block a ramp very efficiently vs a lot of lings, giving the 'roach' player time to mass more roaches. Now your in this position: cannot break the roach wall, if at all then at least with without incurring ghastly losses of lings, and if you retreat then he continues to mass roaches and you basically have no response as your constricted by larve, you can only build 2 lings to every 1 of his roaches, once he reaches critical mass, your doomed.
On April 29 2010 13:29 w_Ender_w wrote: @Templar, Balor
Thanks for the submission. I added it up there for now, but please keep discussing it and of course replays are always welcome. How well does it deal with the common Roach builds?
Usually its quite effective versus roach builds just because by the time you attack your opponet won't have roaches yet(or won't have enough to properly defend, cuz it's either he goes 1 base roaches and has some roaches to defend, or he goes for a expo and he'll have a crawler and like 2-3 roaches maybe.), and with proper micro you could have your opponet crippled.
And, i'll agree you can get behind if you do not micro properly. Just like alot of early rushes etc its key to have good micro or else you're gonna be behind. In my mind the only way you can counter this build is if you build banelings yourself, and without either sacrificing a ovy or just saying screw it i'll make banelings blindly(because in reality you don't know if i'm gonna go lings or a roach build, or even a mix of them.) this build will work very effectively. Besides, i usually run one ling in to scout, that way if i do see banelings i'll just run in like 3-4 lings and attack them, they usually will just suicide on the lings.
Yo, w_Ender_w, is your name Ender in game and do you play Zerg? If so I think we had a pretty epic ZvZ the other day. Speaking of which I'm gonna post my ZvZ breakdown in a little bit.
On April 29 2010 13:32 Equaoh wrote: I think 13 pool is a bit aggressive unless you need to deal with early pressure... 14pool 16hatch has worked in every matchup for me, and 14hatch 14pool is map dependent - I've tried it a few times and haven't been punished. I think Z should sac an ovie if necessary and respond entirely to what the opponent is doing. I tend to head for lair as quickly as safely possible, get hydras or roaches fast as the situation warrants and move into the midgame with a hydra/roach as the backbone of my army. The rest depends on my opponent
That's definately good general advice. I agree that the vast majority of time you are forced to react more to your opponents BO then take the initiative on your own early on. Do you have anything more specific you'd like to see up there in the OP?
Very nice, I was looking for something like this. I would name the Lalush build as an overpool build in the name. I was trying to experiment on which build has the best economy based on drones and when the queen pops. I favor overpool and 13 pool though in most of my matches.
On April 29 2010 13:38 Megabyte wrote: Yo, w_Ender_w, is your name Ender in game and do you play Zerg? If so I think we had a pretty epic ZvZ the other day. Speaking of which I'm gonna post my ZvZ breakdown in a little bit.
Yeah I'm Ender.gunslinger in game, and I think I remember a Megabyte :D Don't remember who won, but I think it was you? I've been experimenting a lot with ZvZ lately. I used to do primarily Speedling builds every time then transition into Muta, but lately I've had loads of trouble with Roach/Baneling. Been trying to do Roach/Baneling myself and having only marginal success, so that was actually part of my intent behind this thread.
On April 29 2010 13:40 Dr_Strange wrote: Very nice, I was looking for something like this. I would name the Lalush build as an overpool build in the name. I was trying to experiment on which build has the best economy based on drones and when the queen pops. I favor overpool and 13 pool though in most of my matches.
I'll do that immediately.
On April 29 2010 13:40 pat965 wrote: Someone needs to make a thread like this for Terran...
(So long as they keep it updated)
I may just do that eventually, unless someone beats me to it. I enjoy playing Random on occasion, and Terran is definately my weakest race.
On April 29 2010 13:37 Templar. wrote: Usually its quite effective versus roach builds just because by the time you attack your opponet won't have roaches yet(or won't have enough to properly defend, cuz it's either he goes 1 base roaches and has some roaches to defend, or he goes for a expo and he'll have a crawler and like 2-3 roaches maybe.), and with proper micro you could have your opponet crippled.
And, i'll agree you can get behind if you do not micro properly. Just like alot of early rushes etc its key to have good micro or else you're gonna be behind. In my mind the only way you can counter this build is if you build banelings yourself, and without either sacrificing a ovy or just saying screw it i'll make banelings blindly(because in reality you don't know if i'm gonna go lings or a roach build, or even a mix of them.) this build will work very effectively. Besides, i usually run one ling in to scout, that way if i do see banelings i'll just run in like 3-4 lings and attack them, they usually will just suicide on the lings.
A micro intensive build, I like it. I'll try it out a few times.
On April 29 2010 13:32 Equaoh wrote: I think 13 pool is a bit aggressive unless you need to deal with early pressure... 14pool 16hatch has worked in every matchup for me, and 14hatch 14pool is map dependent - I've tried it a few times and haven't been punished. I think Z should sac an ovie if necessary and respond entirely to what the opponent is doing. I tend to head for lair as quickly as safely possible, get hydras or roaches fast as the situation warrants and move into the midgame with a hydra/roach as the backbone of my army. The rest depends on my opponent
That's definately good general advice. I agree that the vast majority of time you are forced to react more to your opponents BO then take the initiative on your own early on. Do you have anything more specific you'd like to see up there in the OP?
Like in sc1, whore drones for as long as possible early on (as in, I keep like 2 lings in front of his choke, few hydras in my base and pump drones)and put down 2-3 spine crawlers at your expo because you get a lot of money. I take my 2nd geyser when lair is near done, and nat geysers once hydra den finishes (add 2 evo chambers soon).
On April 29 2010 13:40 pat965 wrote: Someone needs to make a thread like this for Terran...
(So long as they keep it updated)
For all the races, please use a thread until the best solid "normal" builds bubble up to the top, then put those on Liquipedia, that way I only have one place to print from / study, instead of having to hunt down the thread eventually.
Also I really like this idea and it will help Bronze noobs like myself. I'm trying to focus on Macro rather than build order but will eventually want to know what to build when and why.
I also really like the idea of "normal" builds as Day9 describes NonY's phoenix play, even though he's going phoenix's it looks totally normal.
So I checked the reply and I did verse you. You went roach/baneling and I went straight to mass Muta mid game and kept you contained to 1 base. You had pretty good use of the infestor but it didn't matter at that point in the match. My B/O was actually messed up that time too.
But generally in ZvZ here is what I do:
10 Extractor Trick and use the 11th drone to scout 10 Overpool (Overlord then Pool) 13 Drones 14 Extractor 14 Lings 15 Queen 17-18 Lings Lair with first 100 gas
Then be aggressive with first 6 lings. If your opponent goes for FE you should be able to take it out with first 6 lings plus some reinforcements. If your opponent doesn't go 1 Base Roach all-in the then expand with 1-2 spine crawlers. Play defensively but try to snipe his expo if possible.
If your opponent is going FE with roaches then you will need to throw down a Roach Warren to match him. Hopefully you got your expo up first. If the map is Kulas Ravine try and steal the gold expo without your opponent knowing.
Mid-game you have 2 options. Mutas or hydras. If you go Mutas basically you need to expand again while denying your opponent any more expansions in order to win. You win by map control. If you go hydras, scout your opponent. If he goes Mutas make sure to put up 2 spore crawlers per base, sit back and keep producing Hydras, because in a straight-up fight your hydras will win. If he is also going hydras, then get +1/+1 and try to out macro him. Eventually you will gain enough of an economic advantage to win the game.
Basically ZvZ is a game of each player trying to secure the higher advantage. If you manage to get an expo and hold it, you will win if your opponent doesn't have one (obviously).
Typing this out, I actually realize how hard it is to explain all the little nuances that you absorb as you play more and more games.
My 'normal' BO for Terran. Please make sure to never ALWAYS go for any 1 build order, keep scouting!
14 pool 16 hatch 15 ovi 15 extractor 16 Queen Next queen builds on same hatch as first, as your second hatch will not be finished,walk first queen to second hatch after injecting larve, it should arrive close to when second hatch completes with almost enough energy for another inject larve. If you scout starports, build extra queens and fast lair tech to hydras. ELSE first 100 gas to speedlings (counters reaver, helion harass pretty well)
I have found 2 hatch >> 1 lair vs Terran.
Do not be too quick to fill up your gas to early, you should be focused on drones and speedlings since it is important to keep up with the Terrans very easy mode macro (damn mules).
Speedlings are not really hard countered by anything except by a large MM ball or air, they should give you enough map control to saturate your FE safety.
From here its up to the Terran player, they have a lot of options. Scout. React. Win. vs MMM- roach hydra infestor (fungal growth) vs mech- Muta/Roach/infestor (in the case of thors only, remember strike cannons work great on other thors vs Starport- hydra
In ZvZ I feel like the safest thing to do is open speedlings. Speedlings and the scouting info they give you will enable you to crush greedy zerg openings, and to properly and quickly respond to enemy tech switches. Maybe it's just that I don't like playing super defensively, but IMO pure sling > roach/bling if you have the micro to dance around the banelings...you can almost always get your expo up first if he tries to push out of his main to take his natural with the bling/roach ball.
My speedling opening goes like this:
-9OL -11 scout (if you see an early pool you may delay speed for 2 sets of lings) -14 gas (you want to do this pretty much at the same time as you start your 14th drone) -14 pool -15 OL -16 speed/queen -lings
You get 250min 100gas as soon as your spawning pool pops, just enough to start researching ling speed immediately and start your queen.
As for ZvT, I'm interested in seeing what people do in response to scouting a reaper build (e.g. Ret vs. LzGaMeR). I know that it's not good to FE after scouting such a build, but does it work out better to follow up with speedlings or roaches? Which gives better map control, defends the reapers, and counters the terran followup best?
On April 29 2010 14:12 Megabyte wrote: So I checked the reply and I did verse you. You went roach/baneling and I went straight to mass Muta mid game and kept you contained to 1 base. You had pretty good use of the infestor but it didn't matter at that point in the match. My B/O was actually messed up that time too.
But generally in ZvZ here is what I do:
10 Extractor Trick and use the 11th drone to scout 10 Overpool (Overlord then Pool) 13 Drones 14 Extractor 14 Lings 15 Queen 17-18 Lings Lair with first 100 gas
Then be aggressive with first 6 lings. If your opponent goes for FE you should be able to take it out with first 6 lings plus some reinforcements. If your opponent doesn't go 1 Base Roach all-in the then expand with 1-2 spine crawlers. Play defensively but try to snipe his expo if possible.
If your opponent is going FE with roaches then you will need to throw down a Roach Warren to match him. Hopefully you got your expo up first. If the map is Kulas Ravine try and steal the gold expo without your opponent knowing.
Mid-game you have 2 options. Mutas or hydras. If you go Mutas basically you need to expand again while denying your opponent any more expansions in order to win. You win by map control. If you go hydras, scout your opponent. If he goes Mutas make sure to put up 2 spore crawlers per base, sit back and keep producing Hydras, because in a straight-up fight your hydras will win. If he is also going hydras, then get +1/+1 and try to out macro him. Eventually you will gain enough of an economic advantage to win the game.
Basically ZvZ is a game of each player trying to secure the higher advantage. If you manage to get an expo and hold it, you will win if your opponent doesn't have one (obviously).
Typing this out, I actually realize how hard it is to explain all the little nuances that you absorb as you play more and more games.
Aaaah, I remember now. Yeah, I scouted your early expansion and assumed it was a speedling build or something like that and you totally punished me for it. That was a fun game. Please feel free to friend me on there, I'd love to get another shot at you for some ZvZ practice.
Yeah I was thinking we could do a bunch of ZvZs for practice. I'll add you tomorrow, and good job with the build order list, keep it up.
My number one weakness right now is ZvP where the Protoss will start with 1 Gate and Cybercore, so I think he is going for fast robo facility build. I can't get up his ramp to scout anymore so I stick with that assumption and FE and go for Hydras (LaLush build) and then he just steamrolls into my base with zealots and sentries.
Only way I can think to counter this is 1 roach base play and spine crawlers. But its so hard to scout what hes doing with slow-ass overlords and by the time speed finishes its GG.
My 'normal' BO for Terran. Please make sure to never ALWAYS go for any 1 build order, keep scouting!
14 pool 16 hatch 15 ovi 15 extractor 16 Queen Next queen builds on same hatch as first, as your second hatch will not be finished,walk first queen to second hatch after injecting larve, it should arrive close to when second hatch completes with almost enough energy for another inject larve. If you scout starports, build extra queens and fast lair tech to hydras. ELSE first 100 gas to speedlings (counters reaver, helion harass pretty well)
I have found 2 hatch >> 1 lair vs Terran.
Do not be too quick to fill up your gas to early, you should be focused on drones and speedlings since it is important to keep up with the Terrans very easy mode macro (damn mules).
Speedlings are not really hard countered by anything except by a large MM ball or air, they should give you enough map control to saturate your FE safety.
From here its up to the Terran player, they have a lot of options. Scout. React. Win. vs MMM- roach hydra infestor (fungal growth) vs mech- Muta/Roach/infestor (in the case of thors only, remember strike cannons work great on other thors vs Starport- hydra
14 gas 14 pool 17 overlord 17 gas trick and get queen Next 2 larvae, drones if you see no lings from opponent, lings if you see opponent's lings Roach warren and second gas once queen pops, as well as Lair.
Defend ramp with all units and tech to spire. If you see all in coming from opponent, don't be afraid to get more roaches and pull drones from gas. Transition into mutas, then expand. Upgrade Roach speed and pick off overlords, stray queens, anything you can with the mutalisks you get. Hydra den when you feel comfortable.
This is from the first few replays of the daily. The build is modified a lot later on, but I was too tired to write that down.
On April 29 2010 14:40 Megabyte wrote: Yeah I was thinking we could do a bunch of ZvZs for practice. I'll add you tomorrow, and good job with the build order list, keep it up.
My number one weakness right now is ZvP where the Protoss will start with 1 Gate and Cybercore, so I think he is going for fast robo facility build. I can't get up his ramp to scout anymore so I stick with that assumption and FE and go for Hydras (LaLush build) and then he just steamrolls into my base with zealots and sentries.
Only way I can think to counter this is 1 roach base play and spine crawlers. But its so hard to scout what hes doing with slow-ass overlords and by the time speed finishes its GG.
Haha I had the exact same thing happen to me on scrap station...scouted the one gate cyber core and then got raped trying to pull off the LaLush build. The only thing I can think of is more diligent scouting tbh :/
On April 29 2010 14:40 Megabyte wrote: Yeah I was thinking we could do a bunch of ZvZs for practice. I'll add you tomorrow, and good job with the build order list, keep it up.
My number one weakness right now is ZvP where the Protoss will start with 1 Gate and Cybercore, so I think he is going for fast robo facility build. I can't get up his ramp to scout anymore so I stick with that assumption and FE and go for Hydras (LaLush build) and then he just steamrolls into my base with zealots and sentries.
Only way I can think to counter this is 1 roach base play and spine crawlers. But its so hard to scout what hes doing with slow-ass overlords and by the time speed finishes its GG.
I've had a ton of luck with a well done LaLush build, the real key is to add Infestors if you even so far as sniff Colossus (but that's a different problem).
I ran into the same problem too, and Roaches really do seem to be the answer. Unsupported Hydras are just too slow moving and light to be really effective against Zealot/Sentry, and come too slow.
One nice thing you can do if you're forced into early Roaches, to combat the Immortal transition, is still get an early lair and get Infestors. They rock Zealots by holding them in place out of range of your Roaches, and neural parasites new range makes stealing those Immortals pretty viable.
Of course, he can always totally screw you by pushing with some really early Zealot/Sentry pressure while he techs to Void rays. Life really gets interesting then.
I think sacrificing your Overlord may just be completely essential when faced by a 1 Gate/Core build, because you just HAVE to know what he's going to push with.
Edit: Also yeah, feel free to PM me your name so I can add you as well.
The general benefits are this: You don't have to scout initially, your zerglings will be there before it would matter anyway.
It gives you a big advantage vs 13 gate and 13 pool, since 8 zerglings is enough to kill the one zealot and then either the pylon on the gateway or a bunch of probes. Vs Zerg, if you micro correctly, you can easily kill 8 zerglings with your 8 zerglings and only losing one or two, and then you wipe out their queen. This puts them massively behind.
There really are no downsides to this build in the long run actually. You lose the opportunity to fast expand. It counters cheesy builds like 6 pool, and proxy gate (you wipe them off the face of the earth) and you can build one spine crawler to stop most everything else. If they're 3 gating, two spine crawlers will delay them until roaches occur, and then you're good to go.
The only general challenges to it are that your queen pops out RIGHT as your zerglings arrive at their base, so you have to learn to handle that well. However I"ve found it almost always gives me an advantage vs Z or P and especially if I micro right, I almost always win. If the game goes to late game, you don't lose anything from doing so either.
The way I term it to my friends is this: If you 8 pool, you gain a chance to instantly win at the cost of nothing.
The general benefits are this: You don't have to scout initially, your zerglings will be there before it would matter anyway.
It gives you a big advantage vs 13 gate and 13 pool, since 8 zerglings is enough to kill the one zealot and then either the pylon on the gateway or a bunch of probes. Vs Zerg, if you micro correctly, you can easily kill 8 zerglings with your 8 zerglings and only losing one or two, and then you wipe out their queen. This puts them massively behind.
There really are no downsides to this build in the long run actually. You lose the opportunity to fast expand. It counters cheesy builds like 6 pool, and proxy gate (you wipe them off the face of the earth) and you can build one spine crawler to stop most everything else. If they're 3 gating, two spine crawlers will delay them until roaches occur, and then you're good to go.
The only general challenges to it are that your queen pops out RIGHT as your zerglings arrive at their base, so you have to learn to handle that well. However I"ve found it almost always gives me an advantage vs Z or P and especially if I micro right, I almost always win. If the game goes to late game, you don't lose anything from doing so either.
The way I term it to my friends is this: If you 8 pool, you gain a chance to instantly win at the cost of nothing.
Excellent. Thanks, it's been added to the OP along with a bit of your post.
On April 29 2010 14:26 sooch wrote: In ZvZ I feel like the safest thing to do is open speedlings.
My speedling opening goes like this:
-9OL -11 scout (if you see an early pool you may delay speed for 2 sets of lings) -14 gas (you want to do this pretty much at the same time as you start your 14th drone) -14 pool -15 OL -16 speed/queen -lings
You get 250min 100gas as soon as your spawning pool pops, just enough to start researching ling speed immediately and start your queen.
As for ZvT, I'm interested in seeing what people do in response to scouting a reaper build (e.g. Ret vs. LzGaMeR). I know that it's not good to FE after scouting such a build, but does it work out better to follow up with speedlings or roaches? Which gives better map control, defends the reapers, and counters the terran followup best?
This is very close to my ZvZ build. It seems to flow pretty well and is easily adaptable based on scouting. Vs roaches, next 100 goes to +1 for lings, vs speedlings/blings it goes to baneling nest.
As to countering fast reaper, It depends. If he went for 2+ rax, go speedling. If he went for 1 rax 1 factory, go roaches. a good way to delay the very fast reaper is to position your drone where the tech lab must be placed..this can buy you precious time..I forget which progamer did this,but he must have delayed the reaper for a good 30+ seconds.
i think a speedling build is strictly inferior to a 1base +1 roach build in ZvZ, especially off of only 1 hatch. you can't mass enough lings to bust a narrow ramp base (ie not scrapstation), and when i get my evo chamber at around 20 and upgrade my attack, my roaches will 2 shot lings. if my opponent has gone for an FE with roaches, i can do a timing bust at +1 and overwhelm him with more upgraded roaches, or if i scout him early enough i can choose to just expand myself and play a macro game. if he's done a 2hat speedling build, +1 roaches will rape speedlings incredibly hard; off 1 hatchery you won't have enough speedlings to even make it close. +1 also makes it a ton easier to bust any spine turtling into mutas.
It gives you a big advantage vs 13 gate and 13 pool, since 8 zerglings is enough to kill the one zealot and then either the pylon on the gateway or a bunch of probes. Vs Zerg, if you micro correctly, you can easily kill 8 zerglings with your 8 zerglings and only losing one or two, and then you wipe out their queen. This puts them massively behind.
i disagree. if you attack with drones and lings, and do the move-attack/stop thing with drones to mess up the attack priority of your opponents lings 4 lings + drones + queen will beat 8 lings. then you're behind in lings and econ.
On April 29 2010 14:45 neobowman wrote: Sort of extracted this from Day9 Daily.
ZvZ
14 gas 14 pool 17 overlord 17 gas trick and get queen Next 2 larvae, drones if you see no lings from opponent, lings if you see opponent's lings Roach warren and second gas once queen pops, as well as Lair.
Defend ramp with all units and tech to spire. If you see all in coming from opponent, don't be afraid to get more roaches and pull drones from gas. Transition into mutas, then expand. Upgrade Roach speed and pick off overlords, stray queens, anything you can with the mutalisks you get. Hydra den when you feel comfortable.
This is from the first few replays of the daily. The build is modified a lot later on, but I was too tired to write that down.
This is the dihilde (sp?) build he featured in his recent Dailies. I have also been attempting to apply this to my ZvZ (and even some other races just to perfect it). A few things I've wanted to fix though:
-I still prefer the 13 pool to 14, I just feel far too much pressure if I scout on 10th drone and find a pool nearly completed or completed. -14 gas as before. -more often than not I 16 overlord and the pool finishes shortly after and I make my queen. -I start the roach warren shortly before the queen pops, usually around 20 supply. -Spawn larvae and Lair simultaneously. -Roaches with the first larvae spawn. -2nd gas around 21 supply
I've yet to find a situation that I feel the roaches don't prepare me for, and this includes some ling/baneling pushes. If I haven't been touched I'll ling scout and push out with my 5 roaches to catch a guy doing straight muta or a fast expand, the timing usually works out that he has very very little to defend and I delay his economy sufficient that we're still battling when my 4 mutas show up in his mineral line.
If I see him coming with a turbo fast ling push or I catch a baneling nest I usually put a spine crawler on the outer edge of my mineral line with the queen in the mineral line behind the spine crawler, and my pool/warren blocking the spine crawler. I know static defense is a double edged sword but I've held off massive attacks with 4 roaches, 1 queen, and 1 spine crawler all in a secure area.
This spine crawler addition is also why I've found this build to be exceptionally applicable to 2v2s since it offers excellent defense around the time a team will double the zerg player. But that is for another thread!
On April 29 2010 14:26 sooch wrote: In ZvZ I feel like the safest thing to do is open speedlings.
My speedling opening goes like this:
-9OL -11 scout (if you see an early pool you may delay speed for 2 sets of lings) -14 gas (you want to do this pretty much at the same time as you start your 14th drone) -14 pool -15 OL -16 speed/queen -lings
You get 250min 100gas as soon as your spawning pool pops, just enough to start researching ling speed immediately and start your queen.
As for ZvT, I'm interested in seeing what people do in response to scouting a reaper build (e.g. Ret vs. LzGaMeR). I know that it's not good to FE after scouting such a build, but does it work out better to follow up with speedlings or roaches? Which gives better map control, defends the reapers, and counters the terran followup best?
This is very close to my ZvZ build. It seems to flow pretty well and is easily adaptable based on scouting. Vs roaches, next 100 goes to +1 for lings, vs speedlings/blings it goes to baneling nest.
As to countering fast reaper, It depends. If he went for 2+ rax, go speedling. If he went for 1 rax 1 factory, go roaches. a good way to delay the very fast reaper is to position your drone where the tech lab must be placed..this can buy you precious time..I forget which progamer did this,but he must have delayed the reaper for a good 30+ seconds.
Good to have some confirmation on that opening - I too do the +1 lings vs roaches and banelings if I see gas before pool (chances are they're using the same sort of timing as me, with speed research starting as soon as pool pops). The +1 serves a dual purpose against diehilde-type builds, letting you punish him if he doesn't build enough roaches to defend by just winning immediately and also by letting you have access to spore crawlers early to defend mutas while you get hydras out.
I thought about the fast reaper thing again, and I think you're right. If I'm not mistaken, you want the roaches if you see a factory to defend any hellion antics and speedlings to contain if he goes MMM. You can also pretty much straight up win with all-in speedlings if he fails to wall off with his initial rax because with the techlab addon he can only produce marauders (which suck against speedlings), reapers (which also suck against speedlings), and marines one at a time (which, again, suck against speedlings).
Does blocking the techlab with a drone (which sounds really hard, the addon is pretty small in terms of grid size) really give you enough time to FE safely without worrying about a reaper bunker rush? I have not seen or tested it myself.
Im also having a hard time grasping the ZvZ matchup. I didnt play Zerg in broodwar an I think that might have something to do with it. Id love to practice these strategies with someone. Im currently ranked about 30th in Gold but mainly because I loose 90% of my ZvZ Ill be on at about 2:45 est if anyone wants to play. Message me at spookyfish.spookyfish
Ive been searching for the game for the past 30 mins and cant find it..its obviously pretty micro intensive, depending on location. If he trys to to build the barracks outside his main and you find it with a scouting drone, it is very easy to block the techlab forcing him to either attack with his SCV, (Im pretty sure first attacker wins, even though SCV has more HP), or build a marine, either way it should delay him enough for you to get speedlings.
If he does this inside his base, you can still do it, but he has the extra opton of pulling SCV's off the line, just make sure you try and attack him first, while staying on the grid for the addon.
this is a difficult technique, but any time bought vs reapers is priceless imo.
heres a replay, it is a TvP, but the same concept can be applied if the rax is proxy and not in the main. If you play toss, this is a great way to get your stalker out before the reaper.
Well, anyone can feel free to add me (Ender.gunslinger), I'm always looking to play with more TLers. I'll also try to check on that Diehilde build by watching the Day9 stuff, at which point I'll add it to the OP.
On April 29 2010 14:17 SC2Phoenix wrote: Nice build orders but i would definely not go hatch first in ZvZ. That is pretty much suicide if they scout you.
I'm in the same boat. I've had nothing but trouble in FE in ZvZ; definitely don't FE in ZvP if they are going 2 gate
I'm an upper gold level player, and since every P and T player always goes for fast tech to void rays or banshees, I started experimenting with new ZvT and ZvP openings that could lead to a quick hydra den. The opening BO I'm currently testing is:
14 hatch 14 extractor 14 pool 17 ol
once you hit 18, both your pool and hatch should complete, and you will have ~300 mins, ~100 gas, and 4 larvae. From there, you can go for a variety of things, but I generally go for:
As you can see, he has the early edge for a little bit, but no defenses as my lings show up, so I'm able to knock him down to below my drone count. As well, my queen is up as my zerglings attack his base, while his queen is only still being constructed, thus allowing me to get even farther ahead economically. He does not recover the advantage all game. He also makes an unfortunate mistake and techs without a clear advantage, allowing me to push on and keep killing his queen till the end.
My one major mistake this game was not expanding earlier, but it didn't really matter and I knew it wouldn't. I just had to watch for a spire just in case, though with one gas he'd never have the resources to pull it off.
My next game was against a 13 gate toss, which once again this build is good against. I wipe out his pylon next to his gateway and kill his zealot, then he has to pull all his probes to kill my zerglings. They take a few with them, otherwise it's a very strong early aggressive push which works. I make quite a few mistakes in this game (Second queen, though tbh, that turned out to be useful), my second wave of zerglings shouldn've happened. After that I just outmacro him for the win.
It is important to make sure you creep tumor as your speed roaches will not come out till later. thus if you want to micro to win, you need the creep.
In the ZvT build list for the 14pool 16 hatch I definitely wouldn't go pure roach/hydra/infestor vs MMM. Ling/Bling/Infestor will roll MMM's much harder. Roach/hydra just simply can't match MMM anymore without baneling support. If you just want to crush pushes theres no point in getting roach/hydra vs MMM. You want to start adding some hydra/roach in at some point, but banelings make MMM such a joke that not using them would be a bad idea. Roach/hydra is more of a counter to mech than MMM's.
Your ZvT dimaga build (baneling bust) would be better optimized if you go 13p, 12g. Delaying gas that much can sometimes make you miss your timing window. Since you're all in, anyway, minerals are not of concern. Gas timing is. With 13p 12g you still have enough money to do speed and baneling nest on time + 5 blings right after nest completes. Don't forget to have lings ready to morph blings close to T choke.
That said, here's my two cents:
Oversky build (ZvP) Popularized by oversky early in the hellogoodbye tourney. -13pool -15gas -16queen -@100gas, ling speed + pull drones off gas -18hatch -23ov
Rally lings nearby toss choke, keep a small squad of ling further up to deny scout. @~36 ling, attack + nonstop ling production. Don't be afraid of zealot walls.
Counters: any other tech build (robo, stargate, etc), any techless gateway zealot build. Countered by: fast warpgates (2-3 warpgates), forge openings, full wall-offs.
Your ZvT dimaga build (baneling bust) would be better optimized if you go 13p, 12g. Delaying gas that much can sometimes make you miss your timing window. Since you're all in, anyway, minerals are not of concern. Gas timing is. With 13p 12g you still have enough money to do speed and baneling nest on time + 5 blings right after nest completes. Don't forget to have lings ready to morph blings close to T choke.
That said, here's my two cents:
Oversky build (ZvP) Popularized by oversky early in the hellogoodbye tourney. -13pool -15gas -16queen -@100gas, ling speed + pull drones off gas -18hatch -23ov
Rally lings nearby toss choke, keep a small squad of ling further up to deny scout. @~36 ling, attack + nonstop ling production. Don't be afraid of zealot walls.
Counters: any other tech build (robo, stargate, etc), any techless gateway zealot build. Countered by: fast warpgates (2-3 warpgates), forge openings, full wall-offs.
Awesome, thanks zomgzergrush. Your posts are usually pretty darn knowledgeable, from what I've seen. Adding it to the OP.
On April 30 2010 08:08 Wr3k wrote: In the ZvT build list for the 14pool 16 hatch I definitely wouldn't go pure roach/hydra/infestor vs MMM. Ling/Bling/Infestor will roll MMM's much harder. Roach/hydra just simply can't match MMM anymore without baneling support. If you just want to crush pushes theres no point in getting roach/hydra vs MMM. You want to start adding some hydra/roach in at some point, but banelings make MMM such a joke that not using them would be a bad idea. Roach/hydra is more of a counter to mech than MMM's.
I'm inclined to agree. I find either Ling/Bling/Muta or Ling/Bling/Infestor to be far more effective and dynamic against MMM than Roach/Hydra unless you are at a HUGE macro advantage.
your builds are wrong in many ways. Especially the remark on 13 pool being standard - either 14 pool or 14 hatch is the closest thing zerg has to standard. vs random 14 pool 16 hatch is the best all around choice. 14 hatch is standard vs P and T; but 14pool 16 hatch can work in both of those. 14 hatch doesnt work in ZvZ, but 14pool 16 hatch can work. 14 pool 13 gas is also the standard pool for roaches.. Idra actually uses 15 pool 16 hatch. Apparently he can hold of the 7 pool crawler rush with 15 pool. I can do it w/ 14 pool but I doubt I can manage w/ 15. Still, 14 pool also allows for various 1 base builds such as 14 pool 13 gas into banelings (the build order dimaga used in his games), or 14 pool 13 gas and tech to mutas. I never use 13 pool - it has no plausible advantage of early aggression over 14 pool and you can easily hold off early aggression or cheese with 14 pool.
I'm not sure you're reading the original post quite correctly; 13 pool is the standard 'safe' opener, as economic as possible without being overly succeptable to cheese. As is mentioned a few lines lower, 13 pool 15 hatch or 14 pool 16 hatch are the two common standard economic builds against almost anyone. The builds below are common race-specific builds that are designed to exploit either certain builds or certain racial tendencies.
I figured it would be a bit repetitive to mention in both the "General" section AND for each race that 14 pool 16 hatch can work, since it's kind of implied.
As far as 14 hatch being standard, I'm inclined to agree that it can work, but most posters disagreed with it's viability so I removed it for now.
The 13 pool v 14 pool debate is still ongoing I believe. I think that 14 pool is more effective overall, especially with the extractor trick, but there are pros and cons of both. Maybe someone could do a write up on the choice.
13 pool is not the standard safe opener. 14 pool is completely safe. There is no cheese which beats 14 pool, not even 7 pool crawler rush. 14 pool even holds this off on steppes of war. I have tested it. Every pro uses 14 pool (Idra actually uses 15 pool), and I can't remember a replay where I saw 13 pool. There is literally no advantage to going 13 pool when you can go 14 pool. 13 pool offers no early aggression advantage over 14 pool - there is no attack window for 2 lings 15 seconds or so earlier. Now, maybe the issue is that you are not skilled enough to hold off common cheeses with 14 pool, and you need to use 13 pool. This makes 13 pool your personal standard build order, but not the standard build order for zerg. Most users disagree with 14 hatches viability? Vs. P that certainly isn't true. If it were true, all it would mean is most users are not skilled enough to hold off a 2 gate proxy with 14 hatch, which is very possible and infact it's easier than with 14 pool 16 hatch, since you get 2 queens out much sooner and you have more larvae from 2 hatches for zerglings. There are instances where 14 pool 16 hatch is preferable, but this is mostly because of the possibility of close spawn and preserving the option to do a 1 base build or an in-base hatch build. Vs T it's basically the same story except you have to worry about reapers. In the case of reapers it's sometimes preferable to go 14 pool for the earlier queen.. but this is only situational and it's mainly a concern on reaper maps like LT or desert oasis.
13 pool is not the standard safe opener. 14 pool is completely safe. There is no cheese which beats 14 pool, not even 7 pool crawler rush. 14 pool even holds this off on steppes of war. I have tested it. Every pro uses 14 pool (Idra actually uses 15 pool), and I can't remember a replay where I saw 13 pool. There is literally no advantage to going 13 pool when you can go 14 pool. 13 pool offers no early aggression advantage over 14 pool - there is no attack window for 2 lings 15 seconds or so earlier. Now, maybe the issue is that you are not skilled enough to hold off common cheeses with 14 pool, and you need to use 13 pool. This makes 13 pool your personal standard build order, but not the standard build order for zerg. Most users disagree with 14 hatches viability? Vs. P that certainly isn't true. If it were true, all it would mean is most users are not skilled enough to hold off a 2 gate proxy with 14 hatch, which is very possible and infact it's easier than with 14 pool 16 hatch, since you get 2 queens out much sooner and you have more larvae from 2 hatches for zerglings. There are instances where 14 pool 16 hatch is preferable, but this is mostly because of the possibility of close spawn and preserving the option to do a 1 base build or an in-base hatch build. Vs T it's basically the same story except you have to worry about reapers. In the case of reapers it's sometimes preferable to go 14 pool for the earlier queen.. but this is only situational and it's mainly a concern on reaper maps like LT or desert oasis.
I put it up there because it was suggested to me by multiple people in the thread, if you go back and read the last few pages (mostly from suggestion of Floophead, who I've seen post enough to respect his opinion). I personally 14 pool with the extractor trick at 10 unless I scout a VERY early pool (then I might Overpool), so like I said in the last post, I agree with you there.
As far as how 'skilled' I am, we could always play some time, it's much easy then thinly disguised insults on a message board. Quite frankly though, I don't care. This is a thread for sharing build orders, not a "Hey look how awesome that guy Ender that noone has ever heard of is!" thread.
By all means, if you think 14 Hatch is viable, please suggest a build order for me to put up there.
Here is a build order: 14 hatch 13 pool 15 overlord 15 queen zerglings... queen at 2nd hatch... That's how you beat 2 gate. On close spawn LT, possibly on steppes, I think a 14 pool into a 1 base build or an in base hatch is the better build. Same with a close proxy 2 gate.
On April 30 2010 14:40 cartoon]x wrote: Here is a build order: 14 hatch 13 pool 15 overlord 15 queen zerglings... queen at 2nd hatch... That's how you beat 2 gate. On close spawn LT, possibly on steppes, I think a 14 pool into a 1 base build or an in base hatch is the better build. Same with a close proxy 2 gate.
Alrighty I'll put it up there under the Zerg v Protoss section. Remember, the more specific the better, so if you recall any other details just let me know.
On April 30 2010 14:40 cartoon]x wrote: Here is a build order: 14 hatch 13 pool 15 overlord 15 queen zerglings... queen at 2nd hatch... That's how you beat 2 gate. On close spawn LT, possibly on steppes, I think a 14 pool into a 1 base build or an in base hatch is the better build. Same with a close proxy 2 gate.
Hi cartoon]x. I'm very interested in your replays if you are in Platinum. Could you please share? Recently I have discovered that it is impossible to FE vs Protoss at all starting from my level (~1100 plat) and up to top tier player. I have tried everything and I lost every single game when trying to FE (I even do 14 pool 16-18 hatch, let alone suicide 14 hatch). Every single Protoss does 4gate all-in build these days, and they add immortals if I build too many spine crawlers.
In 13 Pool 18 Roach into Air what do the "1-4/2-2: get a spire out as soon as you get the double-cycle of drones" mean? I don't understand what 1-4/2-2 refers too.
SC2 Beta Bronze 1v1 Zerg here. (I know, I'm 1 rank removed from total n00b, but I like to think I have some advice to contribute... )
I find it interesting that so many of you are playing a 13-14pool BO. Personally, I prefer an 8pool ling rush with an openended approach to what I do next:
8drones (meanwhile: I like to b-line an overlord to the most likely spot for the enemy, off to the side slightly to avoid queens/marines/etc upon arrival, and I like to hotkey my hatchery to 1 for easy transition back to baseview) wait for 200minerals, then build pool while pool is building: 2 more drones then overlord, and wait for pool And magically, if you do this right, there will be a third larvae spawning just before your pool is done building, and exactly 150 minerals available...
I then <A> ling rush (usually overlord has scouted out the enemy just before the lings are built).
Now, while they're in transit, I try to build an extractor and replace the loss of the drone, and then build a queen (spamming larvae), 2 drones for the xtractor, and then upgrade to a lair asap. Based upon what the ling rush discovers and/or causes, I then either send more rushes or tech up and drone up.
I'm a true believer that knowledge is power, and thus reacting to what an opponent is building is important, and ling rushing is a great way to not only cripple your opponent early on but to keep tabs on what he/she is planning. Regardless of whether you may think that this is "cheese", it's perfectly legal, makes sense, has pros/cons, and can be prevented against, regardless. I think a decent lingrush/tech build hybrid should be in every zerg players' repertoires. What do you guys think?
someone post that Machine build he did against CauthonLuck (TvZ) in the ITL. machine went HydraLing and crushed cauthonluck's hellion reaper opening into maurader and expo with viking harass. (lol that was a mouth full)
no love for Roach Pressure on Liquidipedia? i've had a good amt of success against P in Gold and Plat against Ps who try to tech to Immortals or VRs. i like sending in the lings toward their probes after atacking their ramp with roaches.
Cartoon's anti two gate build was surprisingly effective for me today. The queen was coming out of the 2nd hatchery shortly after the first zealot arrived and the ling spam made it easy to hold off.
I do have a question though - what is the best transition point out of the speedlings once your opponent holds it off? Ie: you hold off the two gate but he has solidified a strong choke or something to that effect. Should you be looking to transition to lair tech around 30 supply? 40?
Either way, very nice build order. Ty for posting it.
On April 30 2010 14:19 cartoon]x wrote: 13 pool is not the standard safe opener. 14 pool is completely safe. There is no cheese which beats 14 pool, not even 7 pool crawler rush. 14 pool even holds this off on steppes of war. I have tested it. Every pro uses 14 pool (Idra actually uses 15 pool),
Notice he lost to orbs 2 gate in game 2 of HDH with 15 pool 15 hatch. Just saying..He did lose much later in the game, but this was probably due to losing his hatch early.
Alright guys. Comment about 13 pool removed from the OP. Will check out some of the other builds mentioned here in a bit.
On May 01 2010 00:26 Adeeler wrote: In 13 Pool 18 Roach into Air what do the "1-4/2-2: get a spire out as soon as you get the double-cycle of drones" mean? I don't understand what 1-4/2-2 refers too.
It refers to spawn cycles of queen larvae instead of supply count, check out the description along with the build.
On April 30 2010 14:19 cartoon]x wrote: 13 pool is not the standard safe opener. 14 pool is completely safe. There is no cheese which beats 14 pool, not even 7 pool crawler rush. 14 pool even holds this off on steppes of war. I have tested it. Every pro uses 14 pool (Idra actually uses 15 pool),
Notice he lost to orbs 2 gate in game 2 of HDH with 15 pool 15 hatch. Just saying..He did lose much later in the game, but this was probably due to losing his hatch early.
From personal experience, the only time I have ever gotten another hatch inside my main is in horribly desperate situations. And it's never really worked.
The real key is to not lose map control. Speedlings, Mutas, Nydus, Overlord drops... do anything you can to keep map control. Map control, just like staying a base ahead, seems absolutely essential to successful Zerg play.
How are you losing map control in the first place? That seems like the issue you need to address.
And you're very welcome with the post, it's even helped me a ton (started doing that diehilde build a bit, works wonders).
I have an interesting build versus terran here. I am only a gold player (top10 in my div) but I had some success with this build. I kinda developped the timings myself after trying it out for fun . The timings should be pretty tight but could probably still need some work.
10 Overlord 13 Gas (3 Drones asap, the gas is timed exactly) 14 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 6 Lings 20 Ling Speed 22 Lair (@100% Queen) 24 Overlord (keep making drones) 26 1-2 Crawlers, replace drones 26+ Pump Lings/Overlords @100% Lair: Research Ventral Sacs @50 Gas: Baneling Nest @100% Baneling Nest: Morph 6 Banelings @50 Gas: Research Overlord Speed
The idea behind this build is to drop 6 Banelings with around 30+ Speedlings behind their wall. I recommend this build on Scrap Station or Desert oasis due to the short air distance and relatively long rush distance discouraging Helion play vs one Base. The drop is a bit later than a wall bust but you will get to use the banelings on their mineral line or MM instead of the wall.
The first 6 Lings should mainly be used to prevent any scouting. You can block your ramp or the choke if there is only one. You have the minerals to throw down 1-2 Spine crawlers around 20-25 Supply. Go ahead if you expect early agression. By the time Ventral Sacs finishes you should have 6 Overlords, 6 Banelings and enough Lings to fill up at least 5/6 Overlords. Load them in and start moving. With the next Lings popping fill the last overlord and send him too. Overlord speed should finish around half way to his base. DO NOT get into sight range of the terran before it is done or he will have too much time to react.
Drop your stuff as far away from his units as possible. If he can position the marines before you drop, he might kill some ovies before they are empty. Then run your Army through his army/mineral line. Usually when you blow up 6 Banelings into his SCVs there will not be much left and the CC took some significant damage as well. You can easily snipe it with the lings and then either finish the game or throw down a hatch + hydra den.
Most players get caught by suprprise and GG after i kill their main. But I am only gold after all. I would appreciate if maybe a plat player could try this strategy and report his results here... Thanks!
10 overlord extractor trick 14 gas (at around 100 minerals) 13 pool 16 queen 18 overlord 18 speed (All these 3 right after each other) extractor trick to get extra drone or zergling 19-21 lings
Attack with your 6-8 lings, depending on the map your lings should get speed about when you reach your opponents base. After the attack you can expand/get lair and transition into most normal midgames.
I have only been using this build in 2v2's yet but I think it should work in most 1vs1 matchups too. I'm in platinum if that matters, lol
There is a lot of homogeneity in these builds. May I propose an additional tactic: Right after your pool (I like 13), put up TWO gas and put 2 drones on each -- adjust the numbers to fit how many minerals you need at the time, but note from the gas analysis done recently that 2 extractor, 2 drone is much faster than 1 extractor, 3 drones, and you can adjust as needed. 2-4 spine crawlers plus minimal lings (to banelings if he goes all in -- SCOUT).
Gas is the choke point on key upgrades like ling speed, lair, and overlord speed, not to mention spire and hydra den. With double gas, you can get these much more quickly while defending appropriately. Easy to defend early and transition to any strategy -- hard to complain about lack of diversity in zerg units. And with overlord speed it is very easy to scout and build an appropriate army. Instead of building the expansion immediately, build it when it's safe and when you have overlords pooping creep so you can move your spine crawlers quickly. Fast expand is not as interesting, imo.
The one base double gas delayed expo is similiar to what I've seen in dimaga's latest games. I haven't tried it out in a while but I'm more of a fan of zpux's 9ov, 13pool, drone to 15, 15 ov, 15 ling, 16 ling, 17 queen, 19 drone, 20 hatch, 19 gas. Then drone and get a second queen. It'll differ slightly after that depending on the matchup but it's pretty standard always droning up then going ling speed then lair against t or p.
I like that approach as well. I don't like the 9ov as much as the 10ov, gas trick drone11/10, 13 pool. I've never seen an analysis on which is faster or better for resources, but it flows better for me.
The benefit of 2 extractors right after the pool is that #1 you can get speedlings, a lair, and banelings faster. Also, with the extra extractor you free up 1 supply which works really slick with the way it all flows, for me at least.
Unrelated: In 2v2, I have held off a speedling and zealot rush by myself with a bunch of banelings, speedlings, and 3 spine crawlers. Then, it was pretty easy to use my solid economy and my teammate's untouched build.
On May 03 2010 10:25 whs wrote: Preface: Platinum in 1v1 (28th) and 2v2 (11th).
Scouting is most important.
There is a lot of homogeneity in these builds. May I propose an additional tactic: Right after your pool (I like 13), put up TWO gas and put 2 drones on each -- adjust the numbers to fit how many minerals you need at the time, but note from the gas analysis done recently that 2 extractor, 2 drone is much faster than 1 extractor, 3 drones, and you can adjust as needed. 2-4 spine crawlers plus minimal lings (to banelings if he goes all in -- SCOUT).
Gas is the choke point on key upgrades like ling speed, lair, and overlord speed, not to mention spire and hydra den. With double gas, you can get these much more quickly while defending appropriately. Easy to defend early and transition to any strategy -- hard to complain about lack of diversity in zerg units. And with overlord speed it is very easy to scout and build an appropriate army. Instead of building the expansion immediately, build it when it's safe and when you have overlords pooping creep so you can move your spine crawlers quickly. Fast expand is not as interesting, imo.
I apologize! Here's a re-upload with the correct replay. I just re-watched that one, and my opponent did an excellent job of micro and counter, but I postulate that a gas deficit puts you at a disadvantage in early-mid game. There's definitely a strategic reason that there are 2 gas spots in SC2, and I think that unconventional thinking on how to use them needs to be considered. I will upload more replays to illustrate.
On May 02 2010 17:09 w_Ender_w wrote: Well, didn't he win another later with the same build against the same rush?
It wasn't idra playing iirc if you're referring to another blistering sands game. He canceled his hatch and just defended adequately. Vs proxy gate and earlier gates, though, it's pretty much impossible to survive with such a late pool.
I've been playing around with 7p ZvP with a drone and roach transition. I'll post when I iron out the roach timing. The gist of it right now is:
-7p -drones till 9 -double extractor trick after the pool pops -6 ling -12 ov -2 more ling and queen after ov, order is up to you -drone whore while harassing -gas, then roach warren when affordable.
Great because it shuts down any sort of proxy gate cheese shenanigans and greedy gate/forge/expo openings. Otherwise it either ends the game with your roach follow up or puts you significantly ahead. Lings do variable damage, but always force zealots, which get countered hard by roaches. Often times P will try to counter when they finally get rid of the initial 8 ling only to have their zeals wasted with a face full of roaches.
Needless to say this is better suited for 4p maps and fails pretty bad if they scout in time and finish their wall early enough. Some P's try to be extra greedy and camp a probe to pylon off their choke RIGHT as the ling get there. If their pylon has too much surface area exposed, though, the ling break through it anyway as the warpin HP generation rate << ling damage rate.
Oh and yeah, I think you're right. There was another Zerg who plays just like him who did the same thing.
Could be interesting, but that early of a pool always makes me think cheese or all-in. Have you had any success making the transition to late game if your early aggression doesn't pan out?
On May 04 2010 05:07 w_Ender_w wrote: Oh and yeah, I think you're right. There was another Zerg who plays just like him who did the same thing.
Could be interesting, but that early of a pool always makes me think cheese or all-in. Have you had any success making the transition to late game if your early aggression doesn't pan out?
I saw a similar build already posted in OP as an 8p, but IMO the timing difference doesn't make that extra drone worth it. I was just inspired by Day9's spiel about rushie cheesie builds slowly being tweaked into a solid standard and this is my attempt. I was also inspired by certain slower players with poor micro beating me with massively defensive macro focused plays and decided to exploit my strength in the form of an early micro fest.
Obviously this play banks heavily on micro. Improved queue waypointing in sc2 helps this quite a bit. When I am actually managing the ling, I like to split them into two teams early on, especially when only 1 zealot is out. Map permitting and timing permitting, it is not unreasonable to be able to kill the first zealot altogether with a surround. Needless to say this works out quite well after that point. The secondary buffer to the risk factor is the roach transition after the zealots count grows. If he doesn't get more than 1 zealot he's going to lose probes so a growing zealot count is almost certainly going to happen. Also with such high risk of course involves a large range anywhere from high risk of being set real far behind or set real far ahead.
It's not entirely all in because you're not continually pumping ling to try and end the game, drones pile up real quick and you get an early queen to facilitate this.
Even though you may be screwed with a proper wall and do 0 damage, the same goes if you 14/15p and get proxied. In my eyes, either way is still a risk, just inversely so.
My success generally is with the roach followup. By then my drone count usually is equivalent with the probe count but I have the counter advantage at that point. Even if I decide not to commit to the roaches to end the game, I've already killed enough units or done enough damage with roach and secured my economy back by then easily.
On May 04 2010 05:07 w_Ender_w wrote: Oh and yeah, I think you're right. There was another Zerg who plays just like him who did the same thing.
Could be interesting, but that early of a pool always makes me think cheese or all-in. Have you had any success making the transition to late game if your early aggression doesn't pan out?
I saw a similar build already posted in OP as an 8p, but IMO the timing difference doesn't make that extra drone worth it. I was just inspired by Day9's spiel about rushie cheesie builds slowly being tweaked into a solid standard and this is my attempt. I was also inspired by certain slower players with poor micro beating me with massively defensive macro focused plays and decided to exploit my strength in the form of an early micro fest.
Obviously this play banks heavily on micro. Improved queue waypointing in sc2 helps this quite a bit. When I am actually managing the ling, I like to split them into two teams early on, especially when only 1 zealot is out. Map permitting and timing permitting, it is not unreasonable to be able to kill the first zealot altogether with a surround. Needless to say this works out quite well after that point. The secondary buffer to the risk factor is the roach transition after the zealots count grows. If he doesn't get more than 1 zealot he's going to lose probes so a growing zealot count is almost certainly going to happen. Also with such high risk of course involves a large range anywhere from high risk of being set real far behind or set real far ahead.
It's not entirely all in because you're not continually pumping ling to try and end the game, drones pile up real quick and you get an early queen to facilitate this.
Even though you may be screwed with a proper wall and do 0 damage, the same goes if you 14/15p and get proxied. In my eyes, either way is still a risk, just inversely so.
My success generally is with the roach followup. By then my drone count usually is equivalent with the probe count but I have the counter advantage at that point. Even if I decide not to commit to the roaches to end the game, I've already killed enough units or done enough damage with roach and secured my economy back by then easily.
8 pool is cheese and bad play. It's only going to net you wins vs vastly inferior players, and when you get high enough in skill level it's going to be pure luck whether you win or lose.
On May 04 2010 05:07 w_Ender_w wrote: Oh and yeah, I think you're right. There was another Zerg who plays just like him who did the same thing.
Could be interesting, but that early of a pool always makes me think cheese or all-in. Have you had any success making the transition to late game if your early aggression doesn't pan out?
I saw a similar build already posted in OP as an 8p, but IMO the timing difference doesn't make that extra drone worth it. I was just inspired by Day9's spiel about rushie cheesie builds slowly being tweaked into a solid standard and this is my attempt. I was also inspired by certain slower players with poor micro beating me with massively defensive macro focused plays and decided to exploit my strength in the form of an early micro fest.
Obviously this play banks heavily on micro. Improved queue waypointing in sc2 helps this quite a bit. When I am actually managing the ling, I like to split them into two teams early on, especially when only 1 zealot is out. Map permitting and timing permitting, it is not unreasonable to be able to kill the first zealot altogether with a surround. Needless to say this works out quite well after that point. The secondary buffer to the risk factor is the roach transition after the zealots count grows. If he doesn't get more than 1 zealot he's going to lose probes so a growing zealot count is almost certainly going to happen. Also with such high risk of course involves a large range anywhere from high risk of being set real far behind or set real far ahead.
It's not entirely all in because you're not continually pumping ling to try and end the game, drones pile up real quick and you get an early queen to facilitate this.
Even though you may be screwed with a proper wall and do 0 damage, the same goes if you 14/15p and get proxied. In my eyes, either way is still a risk, just inversely so.
My success generally is with the roach followup. By then my drone count usually is equivalent with the probe count but I have the counter advantage at that point. Even if I decide not to commit to the roaches to end the game, I've already killed enough units or done enough damage with roach and secured my economy back by then easily.
8 pool is cheese and bad play. It's only going to net you wins vs vastly inferior players, and when you get high enough in skill level it's going to be pure luck whether you win or lose.
Says Idra as he dies to 10/10 gate. Last I checked, it's often the only chance you have vs vastly superior players. Your response also has no place in this thread about build orders, not your feelings about what's cheese and what's not cheese.
On May 04 2010 05:24 zomgzergrush wrote: I was just inspired by Day9's spiel about rushie cheesie builds slowly being tweaked into a solid standard and this is my attempt....
...Even though you may be screwed with a proper wall and do 0 damage, the same goes if you 14/15p and get proxied. In my eyes, either way is still a risk, just inversely so.
extractor trick to 12 drones 12 overlord 12 extractor (3 drones @ finish) 11 pool (can be laid right when overlord pops)
A: 2 drones on extractor when finished drones to 14, 6 lings at pool finish (+extractor trick for queen at ~175 minerals), aggressive ling pressure, expand asap
B: drones to 17, scouting drone somewhere in here (I like @11) @100 gas ling speed extractor trick for queen overlord+lings timing attack at + ling speed or slightly before (so it finishes during the attack for the blow by to the workers; depending on scouting info choices I have anywhere between 12 and 18 lings here and can pump lings and ovies; I like 2 control groups for this for added FF micro)
bonus if you win right here and your scout is still alive: manner building with scout drone on enemy creep or extractor
C: drones to 15 (scout drone @11) 6 lings asap lair (skip roaches) expand asap
D: drones to 16 2 lings roach warren / extractor trick queen (not sure on the order here, thinking queen first)
...
Depending on scouting info, I expand (at cost of hitting 3 larva), get blings, lair, earlier lings (start saving larva @14 for initial attack/defense of 6 lings) or roaches. The build seems larva starved though for me at least until my second base has a queen, but not enough to expand and remain larva starved (it hits 3 if I try expanding before speed finishes; don't know afterwords because my macro sucks while in battle and I wind up with 7, 10 or 11 larva and enough minerals to expand and use all the larva).
I am wondering if there is actually a really good build in here somewhere. I'd call it more of an opening than a full BO (12 overpool?) because I haven't really tried anything other than the speedlings with it and determining that I can tech that into some kind of 2 hatch muta-ling build really easily.
I find the baneling bust build to work just as well with a 13 pool, and the extra few seconds I think are often all the difference between getting stoned by helions, more marauders or whatever. For what it's worth, I'm currently #10 plat, and ZvT is by far my best matchup statistically.
My question is whether you guys think that the baneling bust is exclusively an all-in build or whether it can transition into something else reasonably smoothly. My experience is that the times it fails, it really fails =)
Baneling bust is a pretty all-in approach, I think. If he is going all-maurader, it is actually easier, if you use just enough banelings to bust and then get your speedlings in. I've never recovered from a failed baneling bust personally, since failure means you've done very little damage to your opponent, and you are at a disadvantage both in your army and your economy.
On May 04 2010 10:03 Bosh wrote: I find the baneling bust build to work just as well with a 13 pool, and the extra few seconds I think are often all the difference between getting stoned by helions, more marauders or whatever. For what it's worth, I'm currently #10 plat, and ZvT is by far my best matchup statistically.
My question is whether you guys think that the baneling bust is exclusively an all-in build or whether it can transition into something else reasonably smoothly. My experience is that the times it fails, it really fails =)
Have pretty much the same expierience, if i go baneling bust and he has a "simple" supply/rax wall-off its near auto win, if he defends somehow or has a factory/rax/rax or similar wall-off you didnt scout i am so far behind in economy its basicly an auto-loss
On May 04 2010 10:03 Bosh wrote: I find the baneling bust build to work just as well with a 13 pool, and the extra few seconds I think are often all the difference between getting stoned by helions, more marauders or whatever. For what it's worth, I'm currently #10 plat, and ZvT is by far my best matchup statistically.
My question is whether you guys think that the baneling bust is exclusively an all-in build or whether it can transition into something else reasonably smoothly. My experience is that the times it fails, it really fails =)
can u upload any reps of this working against a decent player? i'm still having trouble getting this off and ZvT is my hardest matchup.
I'm really getting discouraged with my zerg play lately. Admittedly Im no pro, around 1200 platinum, but it seems no matter who Im against I am being taken out by early air. Even when I know its coming the Void Ray is so powerful unless I've gone straight for anti air Im done in by it.
It seems almost everyone is FEing now for zerg, especially vs a two gate toss. It holds the zealot pressure fine but then it dies to them tech switching into a fast void ray. 90% of my losses are coming against banshees or void rays and I really feel helpless to stop it. Static defenses are a total waste since they can just move around them and rapid teching to hydras or mutas leaves me open to the early immortal or bioball push. I just had a terran roll from a reaper harass into hellions into banshees. Each one is putting me on the defensive as I need to alter my build to compensate (speed for reapers), spine/roaches for hellions, and by the time the banshees come Im just off balance and screwed.
Should I just stick to one base builds and try to rapid tech ala the dehilde build? All the FE builds seem to really leave me exposed to someone pulling a tech like that and just making two queens seems like a really poor excuse for actual tier 1/1.5 anti air. Let alone the slowing it does to me in having to make the 2nd queen, preventing my lair upgrade and costing me supply and minerals to do so.
On May 05 2010 06:40 AtlasJQ wrote: I'm really getting discouraged with my zerg play lately. Admittedly Im no pro, around 1200 platinum, but it seems no matter who Im against I am being taken out by early air. Even when I know its coming the Void Ray is so powerful unless I've gone straight for anti air Im done in by it.
It seems almost everyone is FEing now for zerg, especially vs a two gate toss. It holds the zealot pressure fine but then it dies to them tech switching into a fast void ray. 90% of my losses are coming against banshees or void rays and I really feel helpless to stop it. Static defenses are a total waste since they can just move around them and rapid teching to hydras or mutas leaves me open to the early immortal or bioball push. I just had a terran roll from a reaper harass into hellions into banshees. Each one is putting me on the defensive as I need to alter my build to compensate (speed for reapers), spine/roaches for hellions, and by the time the banshees come Im just off balance and screwed.
Should I just stick to one base builds and try to rapid tech ala the dehilde build? All the FE builds seem to really leave me exposed to someone pulling a tech like that and just making two queens seems like a really poor excuse for actual tier 1/1.5 anti air. Let alone the slowing it does to me in having to make the 2nd queen, preventing my lair upgrade and costing me supply and minerals to do so.
I posted a build earlier that I've tested a bit in gold league, and I find it works fairly well against quick tech to void rays/banshees. It allows you to get an expo up, and get lair tech quickly.
10/10 ol 10/10 extractor trick 14/18 hatch 14/18 extractor 14/18 pool 18/18 ol (hatchery & pool pops) 18/20 queen + lair 20/20 extractor trick (either zerglings to scout, or a drone)
Defend against early tier 1 pressure with zerglings, spine crawlers, and your queen. If the protoss goes for heavy warp gate pressure, you can delay the lair, and instead get speedlings/spine crawlers and drop down a roach warren.
Hey guys I'm just starting to play Zerg as of recently (Used to be a big Terran lover but lack of constant pressure bugs me about humans.) Do you guys know when the timings of usually building drones or units? I usually never really know what to build vs zerg and it just ends up as either massing tier 1 units or insane amounts of unnecessary drones. When do you say to yourself, OK I got exactly 24 drones on the 8 mineral fields I should be OK. Or is it more of a ... I feel like i need more money... so ill just make more drones vs units?
On May 05 2010 10:56 qazqwezxc wrote: Hey guys I'm just starting to play Zerg as of recently (Used to be a big Terran lover but lack of constant pressure bugs me about humans.) Do you guys know when the timings of usually building drones or units? I usually never really know what to build vs zerg and it just ends up as either massing tier 1 units or insane amounts of unnecessary drones. When do you say to yourself, OK I got exactly 24 drones on the 8 mineral fields I should be OK. Or is it more of a ... I feel like i need more money... so ill just make more drones vs units?
Well, Zerg droning is very different from the other races. There are a few factors you need to consider.
With Spawn Larvae, you are capable of saturating a new expansion VERY quickly, so you often don't need to build up drones beyond saturation at your existing bases before you expand.
You also have to consider that each time you build a drone, that's one less larvae you can use to build a combat unit.
A huge part of Zerg play is just making the proper decision about when to drone and when to mass units. Beyond that I can't help too much, since it's such a situational decision.
On May 05 2010 06:40 AtlasJQ wrote: I'm really getting discouraged with my zerg play lately. Admittedly Im no pro, around 1200 platinum, but it seems no matter who Im against I am being taken out by early air. Even when I know its coming the Void Ray is so powerful unless I've gone straight for anti air Im done in by it.
It seems almost everyone is FEing now for zerg, especially vs a two gate toss. It holds the zealot pressure fine but then it dies to them tech switching into a fast void ray. 90% of my losses are coming against banshees or void rays and I really feel helpless to stop it. Static defenses are a total waste since they can just move around them and rapid teching to hydras or mutas leaves me open to the early immortal or bioball push. I just had a terran roll from a reaper harass into hellions into banshees. Each one is putting me on the defensive as I need to alter my build to compensate (speed for reapers), spine/roaches for hellions, and by the time the banshees come Im just off balance and screwed.
Should I just stick to one base builds and try to rapid tech ala the dehilde build? All the FE builds seem to really leave me exposed to someone pulling a tech like that and just making two queens seems like a really poor excuse for actual tier 1/1.5 anti air. Let alone the slowing it does to me in having to make the 2nd queen, preventing my lair upgrade and costing me supply and minerals to do so.
It sounds like scouting would help you a ton here, since you have to do out of your way to defend early air aggression sometimes. Against the Immortal push you probably should be getting Hydra's anyway. Most games I find that an FE into quick Lair after speedlings is just so useful and necessary.
And don't discount some Spores or an extra Queen. It's not a permanent solution, but it can buy you the time to pump out some Hydra/Muta.
I stumbled into this one and think it works pretty well across the board
drones up until 10 10 pool build another drone 10 overlord when the pool pops you should have exactly 300 for a set of 6 lings and a queen build 2 more dornes to harvest and start an extractor
With my initial 6 i do my scouting and can harass a protoss or zerg. Even with a 10 pool terren will be walled off already, but i usually take a look to see if any supply depots are involved, if so, i'll start pumping out more lings while upgrading speed, collecting gas, and drop a baneling nest.
The early queen is nice to either spam lings for a bling push (usually ends up being all-in) and she also is in plenty of time if there is any reaper harass. This build is fast enough to stop an 8 pool rush, too.
The downside is if my initial harass is completely fail then im behind in economy slightlya dn have a hard time choosing to expand or tech. I suppose it depends on the situation as always. I'm a lowly gold league, for what its worth.
On May 06 2010 05:12 FlipFantastic wrote: I stumbled into this one and think it works pretty well across the board
drones up until 10 10 pool build another drone 10 overlord when the pool pops you should have exactly 300 for a set of 6 lings and a queen build 2 more dornes to harvest and start an extractor
With my initial 6 i do my scouting and can harass a protoss or zerg. Even with a 10 pool terren will be walled off already, but i usually take a look to see if any supply depots are involved, if so, i'll start pumping out more lings while upgrading speed, collecting gas, and drop a baneling nest.
The early queen is nice to either spam lings for a bling push (usually ends up being all-in) and she also is in plenty of time if there is any reaper harass. This build is fast enough to stop an 8 pool rush, too.
The downside is if my initial harass is completely fail then im behind in economy slightlya dn have a hard time choosing to expand or tech. I suppose it depends on the situation as always. I'm a lowly gold league, for what its worth.
You might want to give swapping the pool and the overlord a try. A 10 Overpool can work quite well, and doesn't leave you behind economically by much. You got: Drones to 10. 10 Overlord. Save minerals, 10 Spawning Pool. Drone up while the Pool is building. It'll allow you to get to 13-15 supply of drones, then you can pop the queen or 6 Lings or whatever you want pretty early when the Pool is done. Allows for some nice early pressure, and is very very good against really cheesy rushes.
Of course, you can handle a lot of rushes with a more economical build with practice.
But Yeah, like AtlasJQ said, voidrays are the bane of my existance as well (with vikings as a close second). What is the best counter? Corrupters/hydras/d-up on anti-air walker colonies? Also, I remember a nice combo from sc1:brood war where a defiler mixed with hydras were the best anti-air in the game, imo, and sadly our dark swarm and plague have gone byebye to be replaced by the infestor... By the way, in addition to the best vray counter, has anyone gotten infestors to be bad ass for them, and how? I still don't understand those things...
Infestors are amazing if your opponent either goes for immortals or thors. The mind control range is so far now (9?) that your infestor is relatively safe behind your line of roaches/lings/hydras and just one controlled unit swings the balance of the fight significantly.
Unfortunately, protoss nowadays seem to favor mass sentinals/stalker/and zealots with charge now and that makes for hard targets to infest.
On May 07 2010 04:05 DuncanIdaho wrote: Indeed Ema and Ender, the spice must flow...
But Yeah, like AtlasJQ said, voidrays are the bane of my existance as well (with vikings as a close second). What is the best counter? Corrupters/hydras/d-up on anti-air walker colonies? Also, I remember a nice combo from sc1:brood war where a defiler mixed with hydras were the best anti-air in the game, imo, and sadly our dark swarm and plague have gone byebye to be replaced by the infestor... By the way, in addition to the best vray counter, has anyone gotten infestors to be bad ass for them, and how? I still don't understand those things...
Well, nothing really beats Hydra's as far as early anti-air. If you're getting smacked around by really early rushes (Void Rays, Banshees) you can throw out a few Spore's and build a few extra Queens. Infestor's aren't quite at Defiler status but they are supremely useful. Fungal Growth's on the correct units (especially the melee ones) can easily change the tide of a battle.
On May 07 2010 04:11 FlipFantastic wrote: Infestors are amazing if your opponent either goes for immortals or thors. The mind control range is so far now (9?) that your infestor is relatively safe behind your line of roaches/lings/hydras and just one controlled unit swings the balance of the fight significantly.
Unfortunately, protoss nowadays seem to favor mass sentinals/stalker/and zealots with charge now and that makes for hard targets to infest.
I find Fungal Growth is still incredibly useful, especially on the Zealots. Charge can't bring them in range if they are rooted into place.
I played a 2v2 today, we were both zerg (started random) and we were against terran and protoss. We went all ground, (roaches and banelings, with a few hydras from my ally, and they went phoenixes (or phoeni? ) on our olords, and then terran marched in with fully upgraded 3/3 battlecruisers (about 8-15 or so). We died, died and died, slowly, for we put up a fight, but man, corrupters were just not able to keep up with them. especially after they took out our expansions that were still producing.
To me, this seems to be evidence suggesting that in the endgame, zerg lose if they're not already ahead... Any thoughts?
I saw Dimaga use this build against Strelok in a ZvT, but I've taken it and used it against P effectively as well, and it might even be well suited for a ZvZ. Basically, it's a very fast 1 base Lair that denies any sort of VR or Banshee harrass, while allowing adequate defense against Immortal pushes, etc.
9/10 Ovie 14/18 Pool 13/18 Gas 15/18 Ovie
When you reach around 50 gas, make your second Extractor.
First 100 gas goes to Speedlings. You should get your next 100 gas a second after the Queen pops, and that's when you make your Lair.
Now depending on what your opponent is doing, you can make lings for defense, drone up, or expand.
Here is a link to the replay in which I found this build:
I started using the baneling bust in strat from here as my standard opening in ZvT and was amazed at how consistently strong it is. Thanks to whoever contributed it
No offense, but that bust was very slow, with a few critical mistakes: - You didn't rescout his wall before morphing your banelings and fully commiting to the bust. - You should move your speedlings close to his base, then morph them while the next batch is rallying there. - You simply attacked in the middle of his scvs, which led to a ton of zerglings not doing much. - A good baneling bust on that map comes at the 6 minutes mark, with a rescout around the 5:20 mark where you can abort and macro if needed. Yours only has 14 drones for 8 minutes, which is actually after the usual push/harass.
The build order in itself is good though, simply execute it faster by morphing the banelings right when the nest finishes and you get 150 gas.
With that said, unfortunately a ton of info in this thread has been outdated by the latest patch, mostly anything concerning corruptors and infestors openings. Thankfully there are a ton of tournaments to get new info from this weekend!
Sweet thread! I'm at the point in my sc2 development that I don't have any BO per se (Where if you keep your Queens under 50 energy you'll probably win anyway). I seriously just 15 hatch, pool, queen in every game and I get away with it scott free. I'm sure as I move up the ranks that that will get refined and specialized though.
Wow, stopped playing for a month and just came back. This is going to help tremendously, keep updating this mate, it will help Zerg-players pick up the game :D
Gold ranked zerg here: My build (for almost all match ups) is 14 pool 13 gas. Usually verses zerg, I go ling all in, as i find that roaches are too hard to get out fast enough
On May 09 2010 08:05 GenesisX wrote: Gold ranked zerg here: My build (for almost all match ups) is 14 pool 13 gas. Usually verses zerg, I go ling all in, as i find that roaches are too hard to get out fast enough
Ling all-ins are reallyyyyy vulnerable. 2-3 Banelings can kill almost all of you Zerglings if microed correctly.
I used to do the same thing. It doesn't work so well in platinum.
Feel free to flame me if I'm wrong, because I haven't played zerg after the new patch. Dont corruptors no longer work on buildings? and if so, the air v terran build should be modified
I need help, like a lot of it. I just can't handle Zerg v Zerg because my macro isn't nearly good enough to keep up the ROACHES ROACHES ROACHES that seems to be the zerg metagame.
So while I practice in custom games, how can I do an efficient rush? My last game I did an 8 pool and managed to take him out early on on Chaar- was this effiicent enough?
For your ZvZ Overpool idea into expansion... where exactly does the expansion come in? I've had it happen several times that I tried this but someone will quick expo and fend off my early harass and then I'm a sitting duck and fighting an uphill battle the whole game.
Heres a new BO ive been working on for ZvZ, grateful for any comments:
9O 14 pool 13 Gas 16O 16Queen 21 Crawler next to pool/hatch 20 lings (scout) 20 Evo 19 2nd Crawler 29 range upgrade 30 second gas 34 Lair Burrow when Lair finishes
this build is still very rough,and I will continue to work on it and edit this post
The point is to attack with +1roaches and burrowing them for healing as neccessary. In the past I have won games without losing a unit.
Its very effective vs 1 base ling and 1 base roach, If they don't expo you will win.
It is weak to FE builds with alot of static defense that includes Detectors,Ifyou see this you may want to expand yourself.
Vs 1 base muta just throw down a hydra den before moving out, you already have the Lair up ^^
On May 07 2010 04:05 DuncanIdaho wrote: Indeed Ema and Ender, the spice must flow...
But Yeah, like AtlasJQ said, voidrays are the bane of my existance as well (with vikings as a close second). What is the best counter? Corrupters/hydras/d-up on anti-air walker colonies? Also, I remember a nice combo from sc1:brood war where a defiler mixed with hydras were the best anti-air in the game, imo, and sadly our dark swarm and plague have gone byebye to be replaced by the infestor... By the way, in addition to the best vray counter, has anyone gotten infestors to be bad ass for them, and how? I still don't understand those things...
if ur having problems vs voidray its because ur not building enough queens. always scout even if u lose a slow ol doing it against toss. if u see the starports get 2 queens per base. they can infuse eachother ect. go for fast lair and hydra. problems solved. if ur really paranoid and are certain they are going air get 1 spore crawler behind each mining patch. make sure u spread ur creep with the second queens so u can chase voidrays. hydras completrely rape gateways builds anyways so going hydra vs protoss is usually a great idea.
I've been watching a lot of sen's VODs lately. Lately I've been doing 15 pool into 15/16 hatch openings but Sen's playstyle is just completely intriguing to me. He goes 11 pool, gets his queen and zerglings before even expanding. And then...he gets like 3-4 queens. I mean, not even against suspected void ray rushes or anything... It's almost default that he gets at least queens. He delays his lair a little bit as well, but I've seen him defend some pretty insane toss pushes with this opening.
On May 23 2010 07:36 Warrior Madness wrote: I've been watching a lot of sen's VODs lately. Lately I've been doing 15 pool into 15/16 hatch openings but Sen's playstyle is just completely intriguing to me. He goes 11 pool, gets his queen and zerglings before even expanding. And then...he gets like 3-4 queens. I mean, not even against suspected void ray rushes or anything... It's almost default that he gets at least queens. He delays his lair a little bit as well, but I've seen him defend some pretty insane toss pushes with this opening.
Anyone know what I'm talking about?
I haven't seen it yet, care to link or something? I'm very interested. Also a small new patch update: I've been having a ton of luck with 14 hatch/13 pool (hatch 1st) openings against Terran, and even against Protoss when I feel like Roaching.
On May 23 2010 07:36 Warrior Madness wrote: I've been watching a lot of sen's VODs lately. Lately I've been doing 15 pool into 15/16 hatch openings but Sen's playstyle is just completely intriguing to me. He goes 11 pool, gets his queen and zerglings before even expanding.
I've seen a few of his games too, and I was wondering why he did such an early pool, usually going for a 12 pool, but not going for a 12 overpool (double extractor trick to get to 12, overlord, pool, which is still faster than a 9OV 12Pool, and not economically behind).
Actually, I haven't seen much info about the 12 overpool (I'm assuming 12 pool, 11OV, 2nd extractor trick is inferior in most cases, just like 10 overpool is better than 10 pool, 9OV, drone).
Time to add queen roach build from daily #134. http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3743156/ it's an anti muta, anti baneling build. with a window for a roach timing push,
not sure how the build goes exactly; is there any links from a replay thread that anyone knows of?
I was just watching TLO's Zerg in the GLHF tournament against WhiteRa and he used another build. I don't have the actual replays, but I messed around in YABOT a bit and it looked like:
Drones to 10, Double extractor trick 12 Overlord 12 Pool 14-15 Overlord (I believe it was due to the spawn larva timing, not for the PSI)
At this point, he'd done some scouting and he will either hatch around 19-20 or he builds a Roach warren and extractor about this same time.
If he elects to 2 base, it seems to be about as good as a 14 pool 15 hatch with the added benefit you have more time to scout before making the decision. I'm not sure how fast this roach play is compared to other builds. I'd be really interested in seeing what the more experienced players think of this build compared to the 14 extractor/14 pool 1 base opener or a 14 pool 15 hatch.
Also, I took another look at the mass queen opener from the day9 daily and this was what I came up with:
15 Hatch 16 Pool 15 Overlord Drone to 18 When pool spawns you have enough to make a queen in each hatch plus 6 zerglings and the two spore crawlers.
If I cut out the crawlers, this build seems to be very similar to the TLO build. I used YABOT on LT timing until the 3 minute mark and was able to make about the same amount of zerglings when the zealot harass showed up. I'm trying to time roughly to figure out which opener will work the strongest against the 2 gate opener used by TesteR to completely dominate idra in the TL invitational. That seems to be the most dangerous Protoss opener as it sets up a great economy but still allows for a lot of early pressure.
ZvP LaLush Build (Overpool, Early Lair) - Excellent against Immortal timing push/Void ray harass
10 Overpool Scout with 11th drone. 13 Queen / 6 lings 18 Overlord/Extractor 20 Hatch at natural 25 Overlord 28 Lair (1st 100 gas) 2nd Gas at 2/3 Lair pump Hydras to defend the push
From this point on many of the variations depending on what you have scouted have been heavily discussed in TL's strategy posts ^ (this part is not necessary. it's a BO, not a cradle-to-grave strategy. the fact that it will fork is a given)
On August 08 2010 04:26 JeriKu wrote: I apologize but..
What is the "Double Extractor Trick"?
The extractor trick but done with an additional drone/extractor. For example, if you're at 10/10 pop:
1) Send two drones to make two extractors. 2) Pump two additional units while you're at 8/10 pop. 3) Cancel both extractors. You are now at 12/10 pop.
I just realized this thread was fairly old.
Does this trick still work though?
Certainly works, but it's questionable if it produces additional benefit (economy- or unit-wise) beyond a simple 9 overlord start. There were a number of threads analyzing the benefits of these sorts of openers and the consensus was that 9 overlord is superior from a practical perspective. I don't recall if the double extractor trick was analyzed, though.
For ZvZ, I've been using a build similiar to the AntiSpeedling build you got there. Keep in mind I'm still experimenting with it.
14 Pool 13 Gas 16 Ovie 16 Queen + 1 Ling At around 18-19 Roach Warren, Ovie After Roach Warren pops, make 7 Roaches; you should be somewhere around the 33-34/34 mark. Hatch at Natural after that.
I find that this allows me to enter the Lair Mid-Game faster than the opponent usually, while being able to make Roaches if they keep up pressure. Then from there on it's MassMuta wars.
Notes -First 25 energy from queen goes to a creep tumor. -Use first 2 zerglings to scout the enemy out, if you see the threat of a push produce spinecrawlers and use queens to defend. Don't waste larva on zerglings yet, get both bases saturated. -Build spinecrawlers - more cost effective then zerglings. -First 100gas on zergling speed. -Second 100gas on Lair -When lairs complete, get Spire, and then mutas. Producing zerglings when ready.
Notes -First 25 energy from queen goes to a creep tumor. -Use first 2 zerglings to scout the enemy out, if you see the threat of a push - spinecrawlers and use queens to defend. -Build spinecrawlers - more cost effective then zerglings. -First 100gas on Lair -Second 100gas on Zerglings Speed. -When lairs complete, get Infestor Pit, use infestors and spinecrawlers to defend.
Notes -First 25 energy from queen goes to a creep tumor. -Use first 2 zerglings to scout the enemy out, if you see the threat of a push - make more zerglings and banelings. -Build spinecrawlers - more cost effective then zerglings. -If they go pure zerglings then get banelings, if they go banelings then get spinecrawlers and build a roach warren. -First 100gas on zergling speed. -Second 100gas on Lair -When lairs complete, get Infestor Pit, use infestors and spinecrawlers to defend.
Notes -First 25 energy from queen goes to a creep tumor. -Use first 2 zerglings to scout the enemy out, if you see the threat of a push - make more a few roaches and spinecrawlers. -Build spinecrawlers - more cost effective then zerglings. -First 100gas on Lair speed. -When Lairs complete, get Infestor Pit, use infestors and spinecrawlers to defend.
Unit Composition Roach Hydra Infestor
Important Notes in All Matches
Scout, Overseers - zerglings etc.. use them - scouting is everything!!
Important Notes in Protoss and Zerg VS's
Infestors and spinecrawlers are all you need to defend early pushes and mid game pushes. Infestors ARE the most powerful unit in the game - regardless of what you think, 1 fungal growth can destroy a full batch of banelings and refuse nearly all air attacks.
USE INFESTORS!
And you better add these as the 8pool that is in there is fucking awful, I can't believe you've added it.
I do have replays but sc2replays wont let me upload.
EPT
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