EPT14pool 16hatch has worked in every matchup for me, and 14hatch 14pool is map dependent - I've tried it a few times and haven't been punished. I think Z should sac an ovie if necessary and respond entirely to what the opponent is doing. I tend to head for lair as quickly as safely possible, get hydras or roaches fast as the situation warrants and move into the midgame with a hydra/roach as the backbone of my army. The rest depends on my opponent
Zerg Standard Build Order Overview - Page 2
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Equaoh
Canada427 Posts
14pool 16hatch has worked in every matchup for me, and 14hatch 14pool is map dependent - I've tried it a few times and haven't been punished. I think Z should sac an ovie if necessary and respond entirely to what the opponent is doing. I tend to head for lair as quickly as safely possible, get hydras or roaches fast as the situation warrants and move into the midgame with a hydra/roach as the backbone of my army. The rest depends on my opponent | ||
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Balor
United States147 Posts
On April 29 2010 13:29 w_Ender_w wrote: @Templar, Balor Thanks for the submission. I added it up there for now, but please keep discussing it and of course replays are always welcome. How well does it deal with the common Roach builds? Possibly Templar has had a seen differently, but Ive always lost if I throw down a baneling nest and my opponent opts for 1 base roach. Of course the you should be able to scout a 1 base roach easily, he will not have sufficient lings to stop you from getting your first 2 lings into his base, and once you see the roach warren, you should probably forget about banelings all together. EDIT: Also, the major major major defeat of this build is that 2-3 roaches can block a ramp very efficiently vs a lot of lings, giving the 'roach' player time to mass more roaches. Now your in this position: cannot break the roach wall, if at all then at least with without incurring ghastly losses of lings, and if you retreat then he continues to mass roaches and you basically have no response as your constricted by larve, you can only build 2 lings to every 1 of his roaches, once he reaches critical mass, your doomed. | ||
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Templar.
Canada133 Posts
On April 29 2010 13:29 w_Ender_w wrote: @Templar, Balor Thanks for the submission. I added it up there for now, but please keep discussing it and of course replays are always welcome. How well does it deal with the common Roach builds? Usually its quite effective versus roach builds just because by the time you attack your opponet won't have roaches yet(or won't have enough to properly defend, cuz it's either he goes 1 base roaches and has some roaches to defend, or he goes for a expo and he'll have a crawler and like 2-3 roaches maybe.), and with proper micro you could have your opponet crippled. And, i'll agree you can get behind if you do not micro properly. Just like alot of early rushes etc its key to have good micro or else you're gonna be behind. In my mind the only way you can counter this build is if you build banelings yourself, and without either sacrificing a ovy or just saying screw it i'll make banelings blindly(because in reality you don't know if i'm gonna go lings or a roach build, or even a mix of them.) this build will work very effectively. Besides, i usually run one ling in to scout, that way if i do see banelings i'll just run in like 3-4 lings and attack them, they usually will just suicide on the lings. | ||
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Megabyte
United States29 Posts
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pat965
Canada274 Posts
(So long as they keep it updated) | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 29 2010 13:32 Equaoh wrote: I think 13 pool is a bit aggressive unless you need to deal with early pressure... 14pool 16hatch has worked in every matchup for me, and 14hatch 14pool is map dependent - I've tried it a few times and haven't been punished. I think Z should sac an ovie if necessary and respond entirely to what the opponent is doing. I tend to head for lair as quickly as safely possible, get hydras or roaches fast as the situation warrants and move into the midgame with a hydra/roach as the backbone of my army. The rest depends on my opponent That's definately good general advice. I agree that the vast majority of time you are forced to react more to your opponents BO then take the initiative on your own early on. Do you have anything more specific you'd like to see up there in the OP? | ||
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Dr_Strange
United States80 Posts
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 29 2010 13:38 Megabyte wrote: Yo, w_Ender_w, is your name Ender in game and do you play Zerg? If so I think we had a pretty epic ZvZ the other day. Speaking of which I'm gonna post my ZvZ breakdown in a little bit. Yeah I'm Ender.gunslinger in game, and I think I remember a Megabyte :D Don't remember who won, but I think it was you? I've been experimenting a lot with ZvZ lately. I used to do primarily Speedling builds every time then transition into Muta, but lately I've had loads of trouble with Roach/Baneling. Been trying to do Roach/Baneling myself and having only marginal success, so that was actually part of my intent behind this thread. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 29 2010 13:40 Dr_Strange wrote: Very nice, I was looking for something like this. I would name the Lalush build as an overpool build in the name. I was trying to experiment on which build has the best economy based on drones and when the queen pops. I favor overpool and 13 pool though in most of my matches. I'll do that immediately. On April 29 2010 13:40 pat965 wrote: Someone needs to make a thread like this for Terran... (So long as they keep it updated) I may just do that eventually, unless someone beats me to it. I enjoy playing Random on occasion, and Terran is definately my weakest race. On April 29 2010 13:37 Templar. wrote: Usually its quite effective versus roach builds just because by the time you attack your opponet won't have roaches yet(or won't have enough to properly defend, cuz it's either he goes 1 base roaches and has some roaches to defend, or he goes for a expo and he'll have a crawler and like 2-3 roaches maybe.), and with proper micro you could have your opponet crippled. And, i'll agree you can get behind if you do not micro properly. Just like alot of early rushes etc its key to have good micro or else you're gonna be behind. In my mind the only way you can counter this build is if you build banelings yourself, and without either sacrificing a ovy or just saying screw it i'll make banelings blindly(because in reality you don't know if i'm gonna go lings or a roach build, or even a mix of them.) this build will work very effectively. Besides, i usually run one ling in to scout, that way if i do see banelings i'll just run in like 3-4 lings and attack them, they usually will just suicide on the lings. A micro intensive build, I like it. I'll try it out a few times. | ||
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Equaoh
Canada427 Posts
On April 29 2010 13:40 w_Ender_w wrote: That's definately good general advice. I agree that the vast majority of time you are forced to react more to your opponents BO then take the initiative on your own early on. Do you have anything more specific you'd like to see up there in the OP? Like in sc1, whore drones for as long as possible early on (as in, I keep like 2 lings in front of his choke, few hydras in my base and pump drones)and put down 2-3 spine crawlers at your expo because you get a lot of money. I take my 2nd geyser when lair is near done, and nat geysers once hydra den finishes (add 2 evo chambers soon). | ||
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BladeRunner
United States407 Posts
On April 29 2010 13:40 pat965 wrote: Someone needs to make a thread like this for Terran... (So long as they keep it updated) For all the races, please use a thread until the best solid "normal" builds bubble up to the top, then put those on Liquipedia, that way I only have one place to print from / study, instead of having to hunt down the thread eventually. Also I really like this idea and it will help Bronze noobs like myself. I'm trying to focus on Macro rather than build order but will eventually want to know what to build when and why. I also really like the idea of "normal" builds as Day9 describes NonY's phoenix play, even though he's going phoenix's it looks totally normal. | ||
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Megabyte
United States29 Posts
But generally in ZvZ here is what I do: 10 Extractor Trick and use the 11th drone to scout 10 Overpool (Overlord then Pool) 13 Drones 14 Extractor 14 Lings 15 Queen 17-18 Lings Lair with first 100 gas Then be aggressive with first 6 lings. If your opponent goes for FE you should be able to take it out with first 6 lings plus some reinforcements. If your opponent doesn't go 1 Base Roach all-in the then expand with 1-2 spine crawlers. Play defensively but try to snipe his expo if possible. If your opponent is going FE with roaches then you will need to throw down a Roach Warren to match him. Hopefully you got your expo up first. If the map is Kulas Ravine try and steal the gold expo without your opponent knowing. Mid-game you have 2 options. Mutas or hydras. If you go Mutas basically you need to expand again while denying your opponent any more expansions in order to win. You win by map control. If you go hydras, scout your opponent. If he goes Mutas make sure to put up 2 spore crawlers per base, sit back and keep producing Hydras, because in a straight-up fight your hydras will win. If he is also going hydras, then get +1/+1 and try to out macro him. Eventually you will gain enough of an economic advantage to win the game. Basically ZvZ is a game of each player trying to secure the higher advantage. If you manage to get an expo and hold it, you will win if your opponent doesn't have one (obviously). Typing this out, I actually realize how hard it is to explain all the little nuances that you absorb as you play more and more games. | ||
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SC2Phoenix
Canada2814 Posts
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Balor
United States147 Posts
Please make sure to never ALWAYS go for any 1 build order, keep scouting! 14 pool 16 hatch 15 ovi 15 extractor 16 Queen Next queen builds on same hatch as first, as your second hatch will not be finished,walk first queen to second hatch after injecting larve, it should arrive close to when second hatch completes with almost enough energy for another inject larve. If you scout starports, build extra queens and fast lair tech to hydras. ELSE first 100 gas to speedlings (counters reaver, helion harass pretty well) I have found 2 hatch >> 1 lair vs Terran. Do not be too quick to fill up your gas to early, you should be focused on drones and speedlings since it is important to keep up with the Terrans very easy mode macro (damn mules). Speedlings are not really hard countered by anything except by a large MM ball or air, they should give you enough map control to saturate your FE safety. From here its up to the Terran player, they have a lot of options. Scout. React. Win. vs MMM- roach hydra infestor (fungal growth) vs mech- Muta/Roach/infestor (in the case of thors only, remember strike cannons work great on other thors  vs Starport- hydra | ||
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
My speedling opening goes like this: -9OL -11 scout (if you see an early pool you may delay speed for 2 sets of lings) -14 gas (you want to do this pretty much at the same time as you start your 14th drone) -14 pool -15 OL -16 speed/queen -lings You get 250min 100gas as soon as your spawning pool pops, just enough to start researching ling speed immediately and start your queen. As for ZvT, I'm interested in seeing what people do in response to scouting a reaper build (e.g. Ret vs. LzGaMeR). I know that it's not good to FE after scouting such a build, but does it work out better to follow up with speedlings or roaches? Which gives better map control, defends the reapers, and counters the terran followup best? | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 29 2010 14:12 Megabyte wrote: So I checked the reply and I did verse you. You went roach/baneling and I went straight to mass Muta mid game and kept you contained to 1 base. You had pretty good use of the infestor but it didn't matter at that point in the match. My B/O was actually messed up that time too. But generally in ZvZ here is what I do: 10 Extractor Trick and use the 11th drone to scout 10 Overpool (Overlord then Pool) 13 Drones 14 Extractor 14 Lings 15 Queen 17-18 Lings Lair with first 100 gas Then be aggressive with first 6 lings. If your opponent goes for FE you should be able to take it out with first 6 lings plus some reinforcements. If your opponent doesn't go 1 Base Roach all-in the then expand with 1-2 spine crawlers. Play defensively but try to snipe his expo if possible. If your opponent is going FE with roaches then you will need to throw down a Roach Warren to match him. Hopefully you got your expo up first. If the map is Kulas Ravine try and steal the gold expo without your opponent knowing. Mid-game you have 2 options. Mutas or hydras. If you go Mutas basically you need to expand again while denying your opponent any more expansions in order to win. You win by map control. If you go hydras, scout your opponent. If he goes Mutas make sure to put up 2 spore crawlers per base, sit back and keep producing Hydras, because in a straight-up fight your hydras will win. If he is also going hydras, then get +1/+1 and try to out macro him. Eventually you will gain enough of an economic advantage to win the game. Basically ZvZ is a game of each player trying to secure the higher advantage. If you manage to get an expo and hold it, you will win if your opponent doesn't have one (obviously). Typing this out, I actually realize how hard it is to explain all the little nuances that you absorb as you play more and more games. Aaaah, I remember now. Yeah, I scouted your early expansion and assumed it was a speedling build or something like that and you totally punished me for it. That was a fun game. Please feel free to friend me on there, I'd love to get another shot at you for some ZvZ practice. | ||
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Megabyte
United States29 Posts
My number one weakness right now is ZvP where the Protoss will start with 1 Gate and Cybercore, so I think he is going for fast robo facility build. I can't get up his ramp to scout anymore so I stick with that assumption and FE and go for Hydras (LaLush build) and then he just steamrolls into my base with zealots and sentries. Only way I can think to counter this is 1 roach base play and spine crawlers. But its so hard to scout what hes doing with slow-ass overlords and by the time speed finishes its GG. | ||
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
On April 29 2010 14:18 Balor wrote: + Show Spoiler + My 'normal' BO for Terran. Please make sure to never ALWAYS go for any 1 build order, keep scouting! 14 pool 16 hatch 15 ovi 15 extractor 16 Queen Next queen builds on same hatch as first, as your second hatch will not be finished,walk first queen to second hatch after injecting larve, it should arrive close to when second hatch completes with almost enough energy for another inject larve. If you scout starports, build extra queens and fast lair tech to hydras. ELSE first 100 gas to speedlings (counters reaver, helion harass pretty well) I have found 2 hatch >> 1 lair vs Terran. Do not be too quick to fill up your gas to early, you should be focused on drones and speedlings since it is important to keep up with the Terrans very easy mode macro (damn mules). Speedlings are not really hard countered by anything except by a large MM ball or air, they should give you enough map control to saturate your FE safety. From here its up to the Terran player, they have a lot of options. Scout. React. Win. vs MMM- roach hydra infestor (fungal growth) vs mech- Muta/Roach/infestor (in the case of thors only, remember strike cannons work great on other thors vs Starport- hydra Very cool, thanks for contributing. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
ZvZ 14 gas 14 pool 17 overlord 17 gas trick and get queen Next 2 larvae, drones if you see no lings from opponent, lings if you see opponent's lings Roach warren and second gas once queen pops, as well as Lair. Defend ramp with all units and tech to spire. If you see all in coming from opponent, don't be afraid to get more roaches and pull drones from gas. Transition into mutas, then expand. Upgrade Roach speed and pick off overlords, stray queens, anything you can with the mutalisks you get. Hydra den when you feel comfortable. This is from the first few replays of the daily. The build is modified a lot later on, but I was too tired to write that down. | ||
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sooch
Canada299 Posts
On April 29 2010 14:40 Megabyte wrote: Yeah I was thinking we could do a bunch of ZvZs for practice. I'll add you tomorrow, and good job with the build order list, keep it up. My number one weakness right now is ZvP where the Protoss will start with 1 Gate and Cybercore, so I think he is going for fast robo facility build. I can't get up his ramp to scout anymore so I stick with that assumption and FE and go for Hydras (LaLush build) and then he just steamrolls into my base with zealots and sentries. Only way I can think to counter this is 1 roach base play and spine crawlers. But its so hard to scout what hes doing with slow-ass overlords and by the time speed finishes its GG. Haha I had the exact same thing happen to me on scrap station...scouted the one gate cyber core and then got raped trying to pull off the LaLush build. The only thing I can think of is more diligent scouting tbh :/ | ||
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