On April 30 2010 14:19 cartoon]x wrote: 13 pool is not the standard safe opener. 14 pool is completely safe. There is no cheese which beats 14 pool, not even 7 pool crawler rush. 14 pool even holds this off on steppes of war. I have tested it. Every pro uses 14 pool (Idra actually uses 15 pool),
Notice he lost to orbs 2 gate in game 2 of HDH with 15 pool 15 hatch. Just saying..He did lose much later in the game, but this was probably due to losing his hatch early.
Alright guys. Comment about 13 pool removed from the OP. Will check out some of the other builds mentioned here in a bit.
On May 01 2010 00:26 Adeeler wrote: In 13 Pool 18 Roach into Air what do the "1-4/2-2: get a spire out as soon as you get the double-cycle of drones" mean? I don't understand what 1-4/2-2 refers too.
It refers to spawn cycles of queen larvae instead of supply count, check out the description along with the build.
On April 30 2010 14:19 cartoon]x wrote: 13 pool is not the standard safe opener. 14 pool is completely safe. There is no cheese which beats 14 pool, not even 7 pool crawler rush. 14 pool even holds this off on steppes of war. I have tested it. Every pro uses 14 pool (Idra actually uses 15 pool),
Notice he lost to orbs 2 gate in game 2 of HDH with 15 pool 15 hatch. Just saying..He did lose much later in the game, but this was probably due to losing his hatch early.
From personal experience, the only time I have ever gotten another hatch inside my main is in horribly desperate situations. And it's never really worked.
The real key is to not lose map control. Speedlings, Mutas, Nydus, Overlord drops... do anything you can to keep map control. Map control, just like staying a base ahead, seems absolutely essential to successful Zerg play.
How are you losing map control in the first place? That seems like the issue you need to address.
And you're very welcome with the post, it's even helped me a ton (started doing that diehilde build a bit, works wonders).
I have an interesting build versus terran here. I am only a gold player (top10 in my div) but I had some success with this build. I kinda developped the timings myself after trying it out for fun . The timings should be pretty tight but could probably still need some work.
10 Overlord 13 Gas (3 Drones asap, the gas is timed exactly) 14 Pool 15 Overlord 15 Queen 17 6 Lings 20 Ling Speed 22 Lair (@100% Queen) 24 Overlord (keep making drones) 26 1-2 Crawlers, replace drones 26+ Pump Lings/Overlords @100% Lair: Research Ventral Sacs @50 Gas: Baneling Nest @100% Baneling Nest: Morph 6 Banelings @50 Gas: Research Overlord Speed
The idea behind this build is to drop 6 Banelings with around 30+ Speedlings behind their wall. I recommend this build on Scrap Station or Desert oasis due to the short air distance and relatively long rush distance discouraging Helion play vs one Base. The drop is a bit later than a wall bust but you will get to use the banelings on their mineral line or MM instead of the wall.
The first 6 Lings should mainly be used to prevent any scouting. You can block your ramp or the choke if there is only one. You have the minerals to throw down 1-2 Spine crawlers around 20-25 Supply. Go ahead if you expect early agression. By the time Ventral Sacs finishes you should have 6 Overlords, 6 Banelings and enough Lings to fill up at least 5/6 Overlords. Load them in and start moving. With the next Lings popping fill the last overlord and send him too. Overlord speed should finish around half way to his base. DO NOT get into sight range of the terran before it is done or he will have too much time to react.
Drop your stuff as far away from his units as possible. If he can position the marines before you drop, he might kill some ovies before they are empty. Then run your Army through his army/mineral line. Usually when you blow up 6 Banelings into his SCVs there will not be much left and the CC took some significant damage as well. You can easily snipe it with the lings and then either finish the game or throw down a hatch + hydra den.
Most players get caught by suprprise and GG after i kill their main. But I am only gold after all. I would appreciate if maybe a plat player could try this strategy and report his results here... Thanks!
10 overlord extractor trick 14 gas (at around 100 minerals) 13 pool 16 queen 18 overlord 18 speed (All these 3 right after each other) extractor trick to get extra drone or zergling 19-21 lings
Attack with your 6-8 lings, depending on the map your lings should get speed about when you reach your opponents base. After the attack you can expand/get lair and transition into most normal midgames.
I have only been using this build in 2v2's yet but I think it should work in most 1vs1 matchups too. I'm in platinum if that matters, lol
There is a lot of homogeneity in these builds. May I propose an additional tactic: Right after your pool (I like 13), put up TWO gas and put 2 drones on each -- adjust the numbers to fit how many minerals you need at the time, but note from the gas analysis done recently that 2 extractor, 2 drone is much faster than 1 extractor, 3 drones, and you can adjust as needed. 2-4 spine crawlers plus minimal lings (to banelings if he goes all in -- SCOUT).
Gas is the choke point on key upgrades like ling speed, lair, and overlord speed, not to mention spire and hydra den. With double gas, you can get these much more quickly while defending appropriately. Easy to defend early and transition to any strategy -- hard to complain about lack of diversity in zerg units. And with overlord speed it is very easy to scout and build an appropriate army. Instead of building the expansion immediately, build it when it's safe and when you have overlords pooping creep so you can move your spine crawlers quickly. Fast expand is not as interesting, imo.
The one base double gas delayed expo is similiar to what I've seen in dimaga's latest games. I haven't tried it out in a while but I'm more of a fan of zpux's 9ov, 13pool, drone to 15, 15 ov, 15 ling, 16 ling, 17 queen, 19 drone, 20 hatch, 19 gas. Then drone and get a second queen. It'll differ slightly after that depending on the matchup but it's pretty standard always droning up then going ling speed then lair against t or p.
I like that approach as well. I don't like the 9ov as much as the 10ov, gas trick drone11/10, 13 pool. I've never seen an analysis on which is faster or better for resources, but it flows better for me.
The benefit of 2 extractors right after the pool is that #1 you can get speedlings, a lair, and banelings faster. Also, with the extra extractor you free up 1 supply which works really slick with the way it all flows, for me at least.
Unrelated: In 2v2, I have held off a speedling and zealot rush by myself with a bunch of banelings, speedlings, and 3 spine crawlers. Then, it was pretty easy to use my solid economy and my teammate's untouched build.
On May 03 2010 10:25 whs wrote: Preface: Platinum in 1v1 (28th) and 2v2 (11th).
Scouting is most important.
There is a lot of homogeneity in these builds. May I propose an additional tactic: Right after your pool (I like 13), put up TWO gas and put 2 drones on each -- adjust the numbers to fit how many minerals you need at the time, but note from the gas analysis done recently that 2 extractor, 2 drone is much faster than 1 extractor, 3 drones, and you can adjust as needed. 2-4 spine crawlers plus minimal lings (to banelings if he goes all in -- SCOUT).
Gas is the choke point on key upgrades like ling speed, lair, and overlord speed, not to mention spire and hydra den. With double gas, you can get these much more quickly while defending appropriately. Easy to defend early and transition to any strategy -- hard to complain about lack of diversity in zerg units. And with overlord speed it is very easy to scout and build an appropriate army. Instead of building the expansion immediately, build it when it's safe and when you have overlords pooping creep so you can move your spine crawlers quickly. Fast expand is not as interesting, imo.
I apologize! Here's a re-upload with the correct replay. I just re-watched that one, and my opponent did an excellent job of micro and counter, but I postulate that a gas deficit puts you at a disadvantage in early-mid game. There's definitely a strategic reason that there are 2 gas spots in SC2, and I think that unconventional thinking on how to use them needs to be considered. I will upload more replays to illustrate.
On May 02 2010 17:09 w_Ender_w wrote: Well, didn't he win another later with the same build against the same rush?
It wasn't idra playing iirc if you're referring to another blistering sands game. He canceled his hatch and just defended adequately. Vs proxy gate and earlier gates, though, it's pretty much impossible to survive with such a late pool.
I've been playing around with 7p ZvP with a drone and roach transition. I'll post when I iron out the roach timing. The gist of it right now is:
-7p -drones till 9 -double extractor trick after the pool pops -6 ling -12 ov -2 more ling and queen after ov, order is up to you -drone whore while harassing -gas, then roach warren when affordable.
Great because it shuts down any sort of proxy gate cheese shenanigans and greedy gate/forge/expo openings. Otherwise it either ends the game with your roach follow up or puts you significantly ahead. Lings do variable damage, but always force zealots, which get countered hard by roaches. Often times P will try to counter when they finally get rid of the initial 8 ling only to have their zeals wasted with a face full of roaches.
Needless to say this is better suited for 4p maps and fails pretty bad if they scout in time and finish their wall early enough. Some P's try to be extra greedy and camp a probe to pylon off their choke RIGHT as the ling get there. If their pylon has too much surface area exposed, though, the ling break through it anyway as the warpin HP generation rate << ling damage rate.
Oh and yeah, I think you're right. There was another Zerg who plays just like him who did the same thing.
Could be interesting, but that early of a pool always makes me think cheese or all-in. Have you had any success making the transition to late game if your early aggression doesn't pan out?
On May 04 2010 05:07 w_Ender_w wrote: Oh and yeah, I think you're right. There was another Zerg who plays just like him who did the same thing.
Could be interesting, but that early of a pool always makes me think cheese or all-in. Have you had any success making the transition to late game if your early aggression doesn't pan out?
I saw a similar build already posted in OP as an 8p, but IMO the timing difference doesn't make that extra drone worth it. I was just inspired by Day9's spiel about rushie cheesie builds slowly being tweaked into a solid standard and this is my attempt. I was also inspired by certain slower players with poor micro beating me with massively defensive macro focused plays and decided to exploit my strength in the form of an early micro fest.
Obviously this play banks heavily on micro. Improved queue waypointing in sc2 helps this quite a bit. When I am actually managing the ling, I like to split them into two teams early on, especially when only 1 zealot is out. Map permitting and timing permitting, it is not unreasonable to be able to kill the first zealot altogether with a surround. Needless to say this works out quite well after that point. The secondary buffer to the risk factor is the roach transition after the zealots count grows. If he doesn't get more than 1 zealot he's going to lose probes so a growing zealot count is almost certainly going to happen. Also with such high risk of course involves a large range anywhere from high risk of being set real far behind or set real far ahead.
It's not entirely all in because you're not continually pumping ling to try and end the game, drones pile up real quick and you get an early queen to facilitate this.
Even though you may be screwed with a proper wall and do 0 damage, the same goes if you 14/15p and get proxied. In my eyes, either way is still a risk, just inversely so.
My success generally is with the roach followup. By then my drone count usually is equivalent with the probe count but I have the counter advantage at that point. Even if I decide not to commit to the roaches to end the game, I've already killed enough units or done enough damage with roach and secured my economy back by then easily.
On May 04 2010 05:07 w_Ender_w wrote: Oh and yeah, I think you're right. There was another Zerg who plays just like him who did the same thing.
Could be interesting, but that early of a pool always makes me think cheese or all-in. Have you had any success making the transition to late game if your early aggression doesn't pan out?
I saw a similar build already posted in OP as an 8p, but IMO the timing difference doesn't make that extra drone worth it. I was just inspired by Day9's spiel about rushie cheesie builds slowly being tweaked into a solid standard and this is my attempt. I was also inspired by certain slower players with poor micro beating me with massively defensive macro focused plays and decided to exploit my strength in the form of an early micro fest.
Obviously this play banks heavily on micro. Improved queue waypointing in sc2 helps this quite a bit. When I am actually managing the ling, I like to split them into two teams early on, especially when only 1 zealot is out. Map permitting and timing permitting, it is not unreasonable to be able to kill the first zealot altogether with a surround. Needless to say this works out quite well after that point. The secondary buffer to the risk factor is the roach transition after the zealots count grows. If he doesn't get more than 1 zealot he's going to lose probes so a growing zealot count is almost certainly going to happen. Also with such high risk of course involves a large range anywhere from high risk of being set real far behind or set real far ahead.
It's not entirely all in because you're not continually pumping ling to try and end the game, drones pile up real quick and you get an early queen to facilitate this.
Even though you may be screwed with a proper wall and do 0 damage, the same goes if you 14/15p and get proxied. In my eyes, either way is still a risk, just inversely so.
My success generally is with the roach followup. By then my drone count usually is equivalent with the probe count but I have the counter advantage at that point. Even if I decide not to commit to the roaches to end the game, I've already killed enough units or done enough damage with roach and secured my economy back by then easily.
8 pool is cheese and bad play. It's only going to net you wins vs vastly inferior players, and when you get high enough in skill level it's going to be pure luck whether you win or lose.
On May 04 2010 05:07 w_Ender_w wrote: Oh and yeah, I think you're right. There was another Zerg who plays just like him who did the same thing.
Could be interesting, but that early of a pool always makes me think cheese or all-in. Have you had any success making the transition to late game if your early aggression doesn't pan out?
I saw a similar build already posted in OP as an 8p, but IMO the timing difference doesn't make that extra drone worth it. I was just inspired by Day9's spiel about rushie cheesie builds slowly being tweaked into a solid standard and this is my attempt. I was also inspired by certain slower players with poor micro beating me with massively defensive macro focused plays and decided to exploit my strength in the form of an early micro fest.
Obviously this play banks heavily on micro. Improved queue waypointing in sc2 helps this quite a bit. When I am actually managing the ling, I like to split them into two teams early on, especially when only 1 zealot is out. Map permitting and timing permitting, it is not unreasonable to be able to kill the first zealot altogether with a surround. Needless to say this works out quite well after that point. The secondary buffer to the risk factor is the roach transition after the zealots count grows. If he doesn't get more than 1 zealot he's going to lose probes so a growing zealot count is almost certainly going to happen. Also with such high risk of course involves a large range anywhere from high risk of being set real far behind or set real far ahead.
It's not entirely all in because you're not continually pumping ling to try and end the game, drones pile up real quick and you get an early queen to facilitate this.
Even though you may be screwed with a proper wall and do 0 damage, the same goes if you 14/15p and get proxied. In my eyes, either way is still a risk, just inversely so.
My success generally is with the roach followup. By then my drone count usually is equivalent with the probe count but I have the counter advantage at that point. Even if I decide not to commit to the roaches to end the game, I've already killed enough units or done enough damage with roach and secured my economy back by then easily.
8 pool is cheese and bad play. It's only going to net you wins vs vastly inferior players, and when you get high enough in skill level it's going to be pure luck whether you win or lose.
Says Idra as he dies to 10/10 gate. Last I checked, it's often the only chance you have vs vastly superior players. Your response also has no place in this thread about build orders, not your feelings about what's cheese and what's not cheese.
On May 04 2010 05:24 zomgzergrush wrote: I was just inspired by Day9's spiel about rushie cheesie builds slowly being tweaked into a solid standard and this is my attempt....
...Even though you may be screwed with a proper wall and do 0 damage, the same goes if you 14/15p and get proxied. In my eyes, either way is still a risk, just inversely so.
extractor trick to 12 drones 12 overlord 12 extractor (3 drones @ finish) 11 pool (can be laid right when overlord pops)
A: 2 drones on extractor when finished drones to 14, 6 lings at pool finish (+extractor trick for queen at ~175 minerals), aggressive ling pressure, expand asap
B: drones to 17, scouting drone somewhere in here (I like @11) @100 gas ling speed extractor trick for queen overlord+lings timing attack at + ling speed or slightly before (so it finishes during the attack for the blow by to the workers; depending on scouting info choices I have anywhere between 12 and 18 lings here and can pump lings and ovies; I like 2 control groups for this for added FF micro)
bonus if you win right here and your scout is still alive: manner building with scout drone on enemy creep or extractor
C: drones to 15 (scout drone @11) 6 lings asap lair (skip roaches) expand asap
D: drones to 16 2 lings roach warren / extractor trick queen (not sure on the order here, thinking queen first)
...
Depending on scouting info, I expand (at cost of hitting 3 larva), get blings, lair, earlier lings (start saving larva @14 for initial attack/defense of 6 lings) or roaches. The build seems larva starved though for me at least until my second base has a queen, but not enough to expand and remain larva starved (it hits 3 if I try expanding before speed finishes; don't know afterwords because my macro sucks while in battle and I wind up with 7, 10 or 11 larva and enough minerals to expand and use all the larva).
I am wondering if there is actually a really good build in here somewhere. I'd call it more of an opening than a full BO (12 overpool?) because I haven't really tried anything other than the speedlings with it and determining that I can tech that into some kind of 2 hatch muta-ling build really easily.
EPT
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