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On April 29 2010 14:40 Megabyte wrote:
Yeah I was thinking we could do a bunch of ZvZs for practice. I'll add you tomorrow, and good job with the build order list, keep it up.
My number one weakness right now is ZvP where the Protoss will start with 1 Gate and Cybercore, so I think he is going for fast robo facility build. I can't get up his ramp to scout anymore so I stick with that assumption and FE and go for Hydras (LaLush build) and then he just steamrolls into my base with zealots and sentries.
Only way I can think to counter this is 1 roach base play and spine crawlers. But its so hard to scout what hes doing with slow-ass overlords and by the time speed finishes its GG.
I've had a ton of luck with a well done LaLush build, the real key is to add Infestors if you even so far as sniff Colossus (but that's a different problem).
I ran into the same problem too, and Roaches really do seem to be the answer. Unsupported Hydras are just too slow moving and light to be really effective against Zealot/Sentry, and come too slow.
One nice thing you can do if you're forced into early Roaches, to combat the Immortal transition, is still get an early lair and get Infestors. They rock Zealots by holding them in place out of range of your Roaches, and neural parasites new range makes stealing those Immortals pretty viable.
Of course, he can always totally screw you by pushing with some really early Zealot/Sentry pressure while he techs to Void rays. Life really gets interesting then.
I think sacrificing your Overlord may just be completely essential when faced by a 1 Gate/Core build, because you just HAVE to know what he's going to push with.
Edit: Also yeah, feel free to PM me your name so I can add you as well.
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I use 8 pool for all my matchups (That is, ZvZ and ZvP, I don't have a viable strat vs T still >.<)
It's referenced on the Liquipedia here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/8_Pool_(vs._Protoss)
The general benefits are this: You don't have to scout initially, your zerglings will be there before it would matter anyway.
It gives you a big advantage vs 13 gate and 13 pool, since 8 zerglings is enough to kill the one zealot and then either the pylon on the gateway or a bunch of probes. Vs Zerg, if you micro correctly, you can easily kill 8 zerglings with your 8 zerglings and only losing one or two, and then you wipe out their queen. This puts them massively behind.
There really are no downsides to this build in the long run actually. You lose the opportunity to fast expand. It counters cheesy builds like 6 pool, and proxy gate (you wipe them off the face of the earth) and you can build one spine crawler to stop most everything else. If they're 3 gating, two spine crawlers will delay them until roaches occur, and then you're good to go.
The only general challenges to it are that your queen pops out RIGHT as your zerglings arrive at their base, so you have to learn to handle that well. However I"ve found it almost always gives me an advantage vs Z or P and especially if I micro right, I almost always win. If the game goes to late game, you don't lose anything from doing so either.
The way I term it to my friends is this:
If you 8 pool, you gain a chance to instantly win at the cost of nothing.
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On April 29 2010 15:03 ghosthunter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I use 8 pool for all my matchups (That is, ZvZ and ZvP, I don't have a viable strat vs T still >.<) It's referenced on the Liquipedia here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/8_Pool_(vs._Protoss)The general benefits are this: You don't have to scout initially, your zerglings will be there before it would matter anyway. It gives you a big advantage vs 13 gate and 13 pool, since 8 zerglings is enough to kill the one zealot and then either the pylon on the gateway or a bunch of probes. Vs Zerg, if you micro correctly, you can easily kill 8 zerglings with your 8 zerglings and only losing one or two, and then you wipe out their queen. This puts them massively behind. There really are no downsides to this build in the long run actually. You lose the opportunity to fast expand. It counters cheesy builds like 6 pool, and proxy gate (you wipe them off the face of the earth) and you can build one spine crawler to stop most everything else. If they're 3 gating, two spine crawlers will delay them until roaches occur, and then you're good to go. The only general challenges to it are that your queen pops out RIGHT as your zerglings arrive at their base, so you have to learn to handle that well. However I"ve found it almost always gives me an advantage vs Z or P and especially if I micro right, I almost always win. If the game goes to late game, you don't lose anything from doing so either. The way I term it to my friends is this: If you 8 pool, you gain a chance to instantly win at the cost of nothing.
Excellent. Thanks, it's been added to the OP along with a bit of your post.
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On April 29 2010 14:26 sooch wrote:
In ZvZ I feel like the safest thing to do is open speedlings.
My speedling opening goes like this:
-9OL
-11 scout (if you see an early pool you may delay speed for 2 sets of lings)
-14 gas (you want to do this pretty much at the same time as you start your 14th drone)
-14 pool
-15 OL
-16 speed/queen
-lings
You get 250min 100gas as soon as your spawning pool pops, just enough to start researching ling speed immediately and start your queen.
As for ZvT, I'm interested in seeing what people do in response to scouting a reaper build (e.g. Ret vs. LzGaMeR). I know that it's not good to FE after scouting such a build, but does it work out better to follow up with speedlings or roaches? Which gives better map control, defends the reapers, and counters the terran followup best?
This is very close to my ZvZ build. It seems to flow pretty well and is easily adaptable based on scouting. Vs roaches, next 100 goes to +1 for lings, vs speedlings/blings it goes to baneling nest.
As to countering fast reaper, It depends. If he went for 2+ rax, go speedling. If he went for 1 rax 1 factory, go roaches. a good way to delay the very fast reaper is to position your drone where the tech lab must be placed..this can buy you precious time..I forget which progamer did this,but he must have delayed the reaper for a good 30+ seconds.
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i think a speedling build is strictly inferior to a 1base +1 roach build in ZvZ, especially off of only 1 hatch. you can't mass enough lings to bust a narrow ramp base (ie not scrapstation), and when i get my evo chamber at around 20 and upgrade my attack, my roaches will 2 shot lings. if my opponent has gone for an FE with roaches, i can do a timing bust at +1 and overwhelm him with more upgraded roaches, or if i scout him early enough i can choose to just expand myself and play a macro game. if he's done a 2hat speedling build, +1 roaches will rape speedlings incredibly hard; off 1 hatchery you won't have enough speedlings to even make it close. +1 also makes it a ton easier to bust any spine turtling into mutas.
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very helpful post. hope to see these for the other races also 
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On April 29 2010 15:03 ghosthunter wrote:
It gives you a big advantage vs 13 gate and 13 pool, since 8 zerglings is enough to kill the one zealot and then either the pylon on the gateway or a bunch of probes. Vs Zerg, if you micro correctly, you can easily kill 8 zerglings with your 8 zerglings and only losing one or two, and then you wipe out their queen. This puts them massively behind.
i disagree. if you attack with drones and lings, and do the move-attack/stop thing with drones to mess up the attack priority of your opponents lings 4 lings + drones + queen will beat 8 lings. then you're behind in lings and econ.
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just what i need exa build order thanks awsome
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some of this could be put on liquipedia 2
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On April 29 2010 14:45 neobowman wrote:
Sort of extracted this from Day9 Daily.
ZvZ
14 gas
14 pool
17 overlord
17 gas trick and get queen
Next 2 larvae, drones if you see no lings from opponent, lings if you see opponent's lings
Roach warren and second gas once queen pops, as well as Lair.
Defend ramp with all units and tech to spire. If you see all in coming from opponent, don't be afraid to get more roaches and pull drones from gas. Transition into mutas, then expand. Upgrade Roach speed and pick off overlords, stray queens, anything you can with the mutalisks you get. Hydra den when you feel comfortable.
This is from the first few replays of the daily. The build is modified a lot later on, but I was too tired to write that down.
This is the dihilde (sp?) build he featured in his recent Dailies. I have also been attempting to apply this to my ZvZ (and even some other races just to perfect it). A few things I've wanted to fix though:
-I still prefer the 13 pool to 14, I just feel far too much pressure if I scout on 10th drone and find a pool nearly completed or completed.
-14 gas as before.
-more often than not I 16 overlord and the pool finishes shortly after and I make my queen.
-I start the roach warren shortly before the queen pops, usually around 20 supply.
-Spawn larvae and Lair simultaneously.
-Roaches with the first larvae spawn.
-2nd gas around 21 supply
I've yet to find a situation that I feel the roaches don't prepare me for, and this includes some ling/baneling pushes. If I haven't been touched I'll ling scout and push out with my 5 roaches to catch a guy doing straight muta or a fast expand, the timing usually works out that he has very very little to defend and I delay his economy sufficient that we're still battling when my 4 mutas show up in his mineral line.
If I see him coming with a turbo fast ling push or I catch a baneling nest I usually put a spine crawler on the outer edge of my mineral line with the queen in the mineral line behind the spine crawler, and my pool/warren blocking the spine crawler. I know static defense is a double edged sword but I've held off massive attacks with 4 roaches, 1 queen, and 1 spine crawler all in a secure area.
This spine crawler addition is also why I've found this build to be exceptionally applicable to 2v2s since it offers excellent defense around the time a team will double the zerg player. But that is for another thread!
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On April 29 2010 22:27 Balor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2010 14:26 sooch wrote:
In ZvZ I feel like the safest thing to do is open speedlings.
My speedling opening goes like this:
-9OL
-11 scout (if you see an early pool you may delay speed for 2 sets of lings)
-14 gas (you want to do this pretty much at the same time as you start your 14th drone)
-14 pool
-15 OL
-16 speed/queen
-lings
You get 250min 100gas as soon as your spawning pool pops, just enough to start researching ling speed immediately and start your queen.
As for ZvT, I'm interested in seeing what people do in response to scouting a reaper build (e.g. Ret vs. LzGaMeR). I know that it's not good to FE after scouting such a build, but does it work out better to follow up with speedlings or roaches? Which gives better map control, defends the reapers, and counters the terran followup best? This is very close to my ZvZ build. It seems to flow pretty well and is easily adaptable based on scouting. Vs roaches, next 100 goes to +1 for lings, vs speedlings/blings it goes to baneling nest. As to countering fast reaper, It depends. If he went for 2+ rax, go speedling. If he went for 1 rax 1 factory, go roaches. a good way to delay the very fast reaper is to position your drone where the tech lab must be placed..this can buy you precious time..I forget which progamer did this,but he must have delayed the reaper for a good 30+ seconds.
Good to have some confirmation on that opening - I too do the +1 lings vs roaches and banelings if I see gas before pool (chances are they're using the same sort of timing as me, with speed research starting as soon as pool pops). The +1 serves a dual purpose against diehilde-type builds, letting you punish him if he doesn't build enough roaches to defend by just winning immediately and also by letting you have access to spore crawlers early to defend mutas while you get hydras out.
I thought about the fast reaper thing again, and I think you're right. If I'm not mistaken, you want the roaches if you see a factory to defend any hellion antics and speedlings to contain if he goes MMM. You can also pretty much straight up win with all-in speedlings if he fails to wall off with his initial rax because with the techlab addon he can only produce marauders (which suck against speedlings), reapers (which also suck against speedlings), and marines one at a time (which, again, suck against speedlings).
Does blocking the techlab with a drone (which sounds really hard, the addon is pretty small in terms of grid size) really give you enough time to FE safely without worrying about a reaper bunker rush? I have not seen or tested it myself.
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Im also having a hard time grasping the ZvZ matchup. I didnt play Zerg in broodwar an I think that might have something to do with it. Id love to practice these strategies with someone. Im currently ranked about 30th in Gold but mainly because I loose 90% of my ZvZ 
Ill be on at about 2:45 est if anyone wants to play. Message me at spookyfish.spookyfish
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On the blocking the techlab with a drone:
Ive been searching for the game for the past 30 mins and cant find it..its obviously pretty micro intensive, depending on location. If he trys to to build the barracks outside his main and you find it with a scouting drone, it is very easy to block the techlab forcing him to either attack with his SCV, (Im pretty sure first attacker wins, even though SCV has more HP), or build a marine, either way it should delay him enough for you to get speedlings.
If he does this inside his base, you can still do it, but he has the extra opton of pulling SCV's off the line, just make sure you try and attack him first, while staying on the grid for the addon.
this is a difficult technique, but any time bought vs reapers is priceless imo.
heres a replay, it is a TvP, but the same concept can be applied if the rax is proxy and not in the main. If you play toss, this is a great way to get your stalker out before the reaper.
http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/13/1AZ4cnt3hss
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I'm also looking to practice ZvZ, it's my worst matchup. High level platinum player, VelRa.velra
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Well, anyone can feel free to add me (Ender.gunslinger), I'm always looking to play with more TLers. I'll also try to check on that Diehilde build by watching the Day9 stuff, at which point I'll add it to the OP.
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On April 29 2010 14:17 SC2Phoenix wrote:
Nice build orders but i would definely not go hatch first in ZvZ. That is pretty much suicide if they scout you.
I'm in the same boat. I've had nothing but trouble in FE in ZvZ; definitely don't FE in ZvP if they are going 2 gate
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I'm an upper gold level player, and since every P and T player always goes for fast tech to void rays or banshees, I started experimenting with new ZvT and ZvP openings that could lead to a quick hydra den. The opening BO I'm currently testing is:
14 hatch
14 extractor
14 pool
17 ol
once you hit 18, both your pool and hatch should complete, and you will have ~300 mins, ~100 gas, and 4 larvae. From there, you can go for a variety of things, but I generally go for:
18 lair (main) + queen (expo)
18 queen + lings
18 queen + roach warren
Since I consider myself a pretty terrible player, I wanted to know if you platinum players think the build is viable or not.
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awesome i've been looking for some new stuff to try
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Here, to give some people some examples of the build I run (8 Pool), I'll post some replays from games I"m playing right now:
ZvZ
8 pool vs 13 pool
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2729
As you can see, he has the early edge for a little bit, but no defenses as my lings show up, so I'm able to knock him down to below my drone count. As well, my queen is up as my zerglings attack his base, while his queen is only still being constructed, thus allowing me to get even farther ahead economically. He does not recover the advantage all game. He also makes an unfortunate mistake and techs without a clear advantage, allowing me to push on and keep killing his queen till the end.
My one major mistake this game was not expanding earlier, but it didn't really matter and I knew it wouldn't. I just had to watch for a spire just in case, though with one gas he'd never have the resources to pull it off.
8 pool vs 13 Gate
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/2733
My next game was against a 13 gate toss, which once again this build is good against. I wipe out his pylon next to his gateway and kill his zealot, then he has to pull all his probes to kill my zerglings. They take a few with them, otherwise it's a very strong early aggressive push which works. I make quite a few mistakes in this game (Second queen, though tbh, that turned out to be useful), my second wave of zerglings shouldn've happened. After that I just outmacro him for the win.
It is important to make sure you creep tumor as your speed roaches will not come out till later. thus if you want to micro to win, you need the creep.
I'll edit with more as I play them.
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EPT
