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I was actually impressed with the writing. You're a very solid wordsmith.
In other news, it appears that I've accidentally uploaded a much better map into Sand Canyon's slot. I will fix this AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. The original Sand Canyon will continue to be available as it has been (as Bx Monobattle - Sand Canyon (Original)).
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Scumbad urashimakt.
Praises post about Bx Sand Canyon.
Gets rid of the Sand Canyon.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
Not sure if we have the latest version on EU but the Princess isn't currently assigned a hotkey. Also you might want to display on the map loading screen or somewhere that they can't attack as it leads to confusion.
While playing as random, I noticed that the idle worker icon and sounds effects were Zerg but my race was Terran.
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On April 01 2012 05:19 iHirO wrote:
Not sure if we have the latest version on EU but the Princess isn't currently assigned a a hotkey. Also you might want to display on the map loading screen or somewhere that they can't attack as it leads to confusion.
While playing as random, I noticed that the idle worker icon and sounds effects were Zerg but my race was Terran.
All units you haven't chosen can't attack, so it kinda falls in line with the theme (Zerglings can't attack if you get Banelings, DTs can't attack if you get Archons, etc). She's assigned to the Q hotkey (same as queen) on US, but that may have been lost in localization? Or it may be lost if you use a non-standard hotkey setup, I'm not sure. More feedback on that appreciated.
The sound notifications/worker icon idle isn't a bug as mentioned before.
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On April 01 2012 06:08 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 05:19 iHirO wrote:
Not sure if we have the latest version on EU but the Princess isn't currently assigned a a hotkey. Also you might want to display on the map loading screen or somewhere that they can't attack as it leads to confusion.
While playing as random, I noticed that the idle worker icon and sounds effects were Zerg but my race was Terran. All units you haven't chosen can't attack, so it kinda falls in line with the theme (Zerglings can't attack if you get Banelings, DTs can't attack if you get Archons, etc). She's assigned to the Q hotkey (same as queen) on US, but that may have been lost in localization? Or it may be lost if you use a non-standard hotkey setup, I'm not sure. More feedback on that appreciated. The sound notifications/worker icon idle isn't a bug as mentioned before.
The button to create a Princess is not bound to a hotkey in Standard, Standard for lefties, or Classic. Grid and Grid for lefties still works as intended.
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On April 01 2012 06:31 Chargelot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 06:08 urashimakt wrote:On April 01 2012 05:19 iHirO wrote:
Not sure if we have the latest version on EU but the Princess isn't currently assigned a a hotkey. Also you might want to display on the map loading screen or somewhere that they can't attack as it leads to confusion.
While playing as random, I noticed that the idle worker icon and sounds effects were Zerg but my race was Terran. All units you haven't chosen can't attack, so it kinda falls in line with the theme (Zerglings can't attack if you get Banelings, DTs can't attack if you get Archons, etc). She's assigned to the Q hotkey (same as queen) on US, but that may have been lost in localization? Or it may be lost if you use a non-standard hotkey setup, I'm not sure. More feedback on that appreciated. The sound notifications/worker icon idle isn't a bug as mentioned before. The button to create a Princess is not bound to a hotkey in Standard, Standard for lefties, or Classic. Grid and Grid for lefties still works as intended.
On US, she's bound to Q on every non-Grid hotkey setup, which is something I probably can't address because "custom hotkey setups" beyond Grid are based on a personal player file stored on bnet. It still shouldn't be a big deal, since Q doesn't conflict with any other hotkeys. Her Larva/Creep Tumor abilities act like the originals across all localizations.
So it's specifically a localization issue with the Birth Princess button. I'll fix it.
Edit: It's been fixed. Some random bug that fixed itself after resetting the hotkey.
A reminder about custom hotkeys: If you use your own custom hotkey profile that you've defined yourself, you'll need to change the Princess' abilities in the same way you changed the Queen's. If you load up the map with a computer, the Princess will be listed.
People also apparently prefer the crappy fixes to Sand Canyon over Blizzard maps. Weird, but I guess I'll put the Sand Canyon fix back up.
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I plan to move the button for the Princess one square to the right on the Hatchery command card so that players may bind it with a custom hotkey if they wish. Currently, the Queen hotkey visually blocks it from being rebound.
However, several people have complained (nay whined!) about not being able to attack with their Queens. I asked the Bluefrex crew about it and we've agreed that it's Monobattle and it doesn't matter enough to try to balance around it. So, we'll put a poll up here with a few options with what to do with the Queen and let the community decide this one.
Poll: How should the Queen be dealt with?One Queen per Hatch, can attack and transfuse (18) 60% Keep the Princess (no food cost, can't attack/tranfuse) as is (5) 17% One Queen per Hatch, can't attack or transfuse (4) 13% Keep the Princess but remove the maximum limit (2) 7% Don't limit the Queen at all, allow it to be built at a whim (1) 3% 30 total votes Your vote: How should the Queen be dealt with? (Vote): Don't limit the Queen at all, allow it to be built at a whim
(Vote): One Queen per Hatch, can attack and transfuse
(Vote): One Queen per Hatch, can't attack or transfuse
(Vote): Keep the Princess (no food cost, can't attack/tranfuse) as is
(Vote): Keep the Princess but remove the maximum limit
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The queen change seems terribly arbitrary. It was almost as if someone said "Well there's a random queen, why don't we remove queens".
When you look at it from a meta perspective. as Destiny, Idra, and others said aroudn s1-s2, Zerg has too much to scout for. The queen is a nice slightly mobile static defense that lets the zerg prepare for things two things at once. As it is now, the zerg can not prepare for reaper and banshee at the same time, realistically. Terran can(PF+turret=is easy) and Protoss as well(cannon super easy). Right now you must make SEVERAL spores/spines in a circular formation to accomplish this. Additionally, if you are spining up to stop a cannon rush, you're toast to 1 base banshee.
I understand monobattles is not supposed to be incredibly balanced, but since this change i've seen zerg autolose games in the first 7-8 minutes at at least double the rate. Is this really want you want? There wasn't a problem before. No one was complaining.
If you want to keep the princess, make it cost 0 minerals. This way zerg would have more early game cash to defend. Either that or make the hatcheries have energy and have them cast spawn larva and spread creep once you've completed your spawning pool. This might be slightly OP to zergling rushes. it would have to be tested.
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On April 01 2012 18:37 RainFall wrote:As it is now, the zerg can not prepare for reaper and banshee at the same time, realistically. Terran can(PF+turret=is easy)
It's easier for zerg to throw up evo chamber, spore crawlers and spine crawlers than it is for terran to get engineering bay + turrents + PF, especially once you take into consideration the 150 gas for PF + lack of mules.
On April 01 2012 18:37 RainFall wrote:
I understand monobattles is not supposed to be incredibly balanced, but since this change i've seen zerg autolose games in the first 7-8 minutes at at least double the rate.
And that will probably continue until zerg players adapt to not having Queens.
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On April 01 2012 18:37 RainFall wrote:
The queen change seems terribly arbitrary. It was almost as if someone said "Well there's a random queen, why don't we remove queens".
One day on the Bluefrex estate...
"If a terran has to sacrifice his macro mechanic to survive, why does the Queen still get to attack?"
"Because you never know what you need to defend against."
"Yes you do. It's right there."
"Oh, fair enough."
(Zerg's second unit nixed)
The word "arbitrary" is ill-fitting because, as you can see, it was done deliberately. In a normal game of SC2 the argument against removing the queen's attacks is obvious to anyone. Why not continue the same train of thought into a Monobattle, ignoring the other races?
Think about what you just said, though. Planetary fortress=easy. The Terran just had to tech down the wrong tree, grab an early gas, and forfeit his macro mechanic on top of the whole mineral chugging portion of static defense all 3 races share. Zerg on the other hand tech to spines automatically and can pick up AA/detection by building an evo chamber. Suggesting you need to create a complete ring around your base to deter aggression is a bit of a gross exaggeration. 3 spines and 1-2 spores at your main gets you pretty far into the game. Expecting to be able to defend any possible incoming as 1 player in a 4v4 Monobattle situation is just playing selfishly on your team's part, which does happen.
It's so comforting to think of the Queen as a mobile cannon, and we're all so used to it. It was just simply obvious to us that Zerg being guaranteed an early defensive unit was a bit of unfairness that could be remedied while keeping with the spirit of Monobattles.
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On April 01 2012 20:34 Tntnnbltn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 18:37 RainFall wrote:As it is now, the zerg can not prepare for reaper and banshee at the same time, realistically. Terran can(PF+turret=is easy)
It's easier for zerg to throw up evo chamber, spore crawlers and spine crawlers than it is for terran to get engineering bay + turrents + PF, especially once you take into consideration the 150 gas for PF + lack of mules. Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 18:37 RainFall wrote:
I understand monobattles is not supposed to be incredibly balanced, but since this change i've seen zerg autolose games in the first 7-8 minutes at at least double the rate.
And that will probably continue until zerg players adapt to not having Queens.
This is the problem when people comment when they don't understand monobattles. Terran opens PF ~75% of the time anyways if played correctly. This is not an issue. Weilhart as well ignores this issue. Most terrans are playing wrong. When You can't say Terrans are teching down the wrong tree when they tech down that tree every single time they don't 1) have meta info that says otherwise 2) aren't protected by a protoss at the gate. 3) have a low tier unit or one defending them/putting pressure on.
It is the most expensive for zerg to defend at the moment. I agree that zergs haven't adjusted to it, but you'll find after X amount of play that the zerg is the largest disadvantage
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On April 01 2012 22:29 RainFall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 20:34 Tntnnbltn wrote:On April 01 2012 18:37 RainFall wrote:As it is now, the zerg can not prepare for reaper and banshee at the same time, realistically. Terran can(PF+turret=is easy)
It's easier for zerg to throw up evo chamber, spore crawlers and spine crawlers than it is for terran to get engineering bay + turrents + PF, especially once you take into consideration the 150 gas for PF + lack of mules. On April 01 2012 18:37 RainFall wrote:
I understand monobattles is not supposed to be incredibly balanced, but since this change i've seen zerg autolose games in the first 7-8 minutes at at least double the rate.
And that will probably continue until zerg players adapt to not having Queens. This is the problem when people comment when they don't understand monobattles. Terran opens PF ~75% of the time anyways if played correctly. This is not an issue. Weilhart as well ignores this issue. Most terrans are playing wrong. When You can't say Terrans are teching down the wrong tree when they tech down that tree every single time they don't 1) have meta info that says otherwise 2) aren't protected by a protoss at the gate. 3) have a low tier unit or one defending them/putting pressure on. It is the most expensive for zerg to defend at the moment. I agree that zergs haven't adjusted to it, but you'll find after X amount of play that the zerg is the largest disadvantage
You are clearly stating that Terrans are usually forced to go PF and this somehow means it's not a disadvantage. It is. And we're ok with that disadvantage as long as other races are more or less disadvantaged equally. Terran, in a normal game, can defend early aggression easily with marines and bunkers or a wall and marines. Key word there is "marines". Without them, they are forced to PF and give up their macro mechanic. How you can overlook this as any meaningful disadvantage is almost offensive.
I understand your concerns and attempts to analyze Monobattle play are welcomed. We attempt to look at the fairness from all the angles, not just the Zerg's. It can be frustrating if you lose a couple times due to a trained reliance on the Queen performing a specific role and I can sympathize with that.
However, saying that sometimes being required to tech to PF is not an "issue" but having to build Spine Crawlers is an issue is clearly biased feedback. Try to look at the bigger picture before jumping to cry foul on the smaller one.
While we wait for the community poll to get some results, we're going to try something different. We're going to reintroduce the Queen to non-Queen Zergs with the typical 1 per base limit. We're also going to prevent Tranfusion from being used on anything other than a building or another Queen unless the Queen is your unit. Hopefully this gives some Zerg players the slight defensive edge they feel entitled to without giving them the late-game accompaniment to their chosen unit.
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One main difference is that for ebay+pf +1 turret on the mineral line side, terrans defense stops nearly EVERYTHING.
I understand your point, but personally it's annoying seeing every zerg from bronze to masters instalose to early pressure.
Terran spends 150m/150g+150ebay+100 turret and they have a virtually invisible defense to zergling, hellion, banshee, marine, marauder, phoenix, roach, cannon(to completely stop cannon you need +1 range to ebay) I'd be more in favor of making this an autoupgrade at the moment than taking away the queen. As it stands now, if you do not go depot->gas->gas->ebay->pf you will automatically lose to a skilled cannon rusher.
In theory, if we argue the ebay is a cost, we'd also have to argue the cost of the spawning pool, but i' could let that slide. Each spine is 150(including drone), evo chamber is 150, and each spore is 125. To defend like a PF, you need a MINIMUM of 4 spines. I'd argue that 4 spines is significantly worse than a PF as well. The largest issue is placement. It's hard to have all 4 spines hitting someone at once. This is a factor MILDLY negated by the queens. It's small, and i understand your point about macro mechanic, but 4 spines cost 600 minerals. For 550 minerals the terran can have an orbital adjacent to the PF nearly fully defended from melee units that is his macro mechanic the entire game.
Lastly and this is a tangent, Day 9s monobattles are absolutely garbage. It's the equivalent of watching gold level players play. He's picking total noobs and playing it in a "for TV" type of way. If you watch his feed, his viewers purposely let him win. Watch his monobattle from yesterday. The guy cancels a completing cannon with 5-6 scvs on it. This is a huge mistake as the scvs the cannon will kill before dieing are way better than the price of the cannon. This guy simply purposely let Day9 win.
The biggest problem with this.. and i understand your thoughts on the zerg issue, is that it's made everyone absolutely horrible at monobattles. THey copy Day9 thinking naked-blind-orbital expanding constantly is a good strat. It's not it will be absolutely crushed by any gold+ level cannon rusher and any proxy/rush build.
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If you find yourself joining a weird "slow" version of Bx Monobattles, go ahead and report it. Be clear in the reason why you're reporting it. I have no idea how it created itself as the speed setting is not an option you can set.
You can always be sure you're joining the correct, "faster" version by joining off the featured list.
Also, I know that there are probably situations that cause bank files to reset (I've had it happen myself a couple times) and I'm sorry for it. Just remember your "rank" is just for fun and I mainly want you be able to see how well you do with each unit compared to your overall win rank. I will hopefully be able to nudge the whole thing into a stable and secure position so that the resets never happen unintentionally, but I'm fighting unforeseen Bnet issues on this one and not my own design (i.e., when battle.net drops you during the map load, the script fails to load your bank file but still attempts to verify it, causing a false detection and reset). It is not something I'm going to be patching by itself. As I make other changes (read: bug fixes or quality improvement), fixes to the stats memory will roll out along with them.
Queens will retain their right to attack and transfuse, but the block on "offensive" transfusions without picking Queen stays for now, too. We kicked around the idea of pacifying the Queen if she wandered too something like 20 "meters" from a Hatchery/Lair/Hive (a hatch spreads creep with an 11 "meter" radius), but at some point the special rules would just get too complicated to intuit. We'll return to it if people consistently witness Queens playing a significant offensive role when it's not their unit.
Next poll: Should Planetary Fortresses lift off? + Show Spoiler +
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I just want to say thanks to all the people enjoying Bx Monobattles. It was created primarily as a tool for monobattle observers, but it's much nicer to see everyone having fun with your work.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xePfu.png)
Pretty close to knocking out the abandoned mod.
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On April 02 2012 19:32 urashimakt wrote:Next poll: Should Planetary Fortresses lift off? + Show Spoiler +
They should lift off, shoot air, and build nukes that can be launched via SCVs. Only then will we have a chance against the enemy! :D
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On April 06 2012 09:41 mikiao wrote:They should lift off, shoot air, and build nukes that can be launched via SCVs. Only then will we have a chance against the enemy! :D
Get out of here, Browder.
Sorry about the wipe to stats, completely unintentional. Stats should again start recording correctly on Sand Canyon, the other maps will get the fix soon.
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Awesome work done to this map.
Small suggestion, though:
If someone doesn't pick their unit within the allotted time, make them stuck with overseers. That'll learn them.
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On April 06 2012 23:55 HungShark wrote:
Awesome work done to this map.
Small suggestion, though:
If someone doesn't pick their unit within the allotted time, make them stuck with overseers. That'll learn them.
You should see the observer side of the map. Makes the regular part of the map look like it was thrown together in an hour...er, ahem.
When I apply the new observer changes this morning I will be shortening the pick time in non-observed matches to 45 seconds as opposed to the current 2 minute duration. Thanks for the good humoured feedback.
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EPT
