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As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 09:50 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? This post has no substance. And why would you talk down to bunny about him having limited information? Do you have less limited information? Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded. He says I have limited information. How would he know that I am town? Well, if he was mafia he would know that I am town. So ##Vote: YKZ
This is the original post in which 27Bunnies casts suspicion on YKZ for claiming that 27bunnies has "limited information" (implying that YKZ belives that he has more information than 27bunnies, implying that YKZ is mafia since the only possible difference between players atm is town vs mafia).
On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies
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On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum.
On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule? I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so... I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm
On June 16 2014 11:50 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:43 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule? I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so... I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm Can you explain why a townie would never do that. Also what does lylo stand for. I know it is a phase at the end of the game. I can probably figure out why a scum would fake claim blue if i knew the definition. A townie isn't drawn to a VT claim in the way scum is. As a townie, when you see a VT claim, you think "huh, I guess that's a bit weird", but it's not the main thing on your mind. Scum, however jumps on it cause that's what scum does. Also, it's extremely worth noting that Kenpachi Rule Extended applies even to 27nb's current case. LYLO means "LYnch or LOse". It's when if town mislynches, town loses. So, 2 townies and 1 scum together are at LYLO, or 3 townies and 2 scum.
On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute!
The way in which the Kenpachi rule is explained Without a blatant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player (and the subsequent explanation), a vote due to the Kenpachi rule entails that the vote on the claimed vanilla townie be due to the claim of vt. However, 27bunnie's vote on you is completely independent of your claim of vanilla townie (if you removed you vt claim, 27bunnie would still have voted for you).
Because this is the case and 27bunnies has explained this to you (and all of us many times), your posts (no fewer than 4, I only chose the most pertinent posts) after her vote that claim that the Kenpachi rule supports your vote on her, and that her actions support the use of the Kenpachi rule are incorrect. This is YKZ's deliberate misinterpretation of what 27bunnies was saying and is not only a method of causing chaos in the thread, but also an early attempt to start a bandwagon and assume eminence over everyone else in the game. Unless you can prove to me (or anyone else) how Kenpachi's rule actually applies to what 27bunnie did (which would require a change of definition in my perspective, because as the current definition stands, 27bunnie is not mafia by the Kenpachi rule), you will have my vote.
##vote YouKnowZhou
Some rather useless defense by YKZ. In the way in which I see it, the following is indicative of playing to survive, and an excessive concern of self, rather than trying to progress, which I believe is indicative of mafia.
On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule? I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so... I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm
Of course YKZ claims Kenpachi's rule works because he is the one using it.
Of course YKZ claims that scum never claim vt because he claimed vt and wants to render himself as assured town.
YKZ does not necessarily need to be town to make these claims but tries further to convince us of his VT claim.
On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Also, your posts are giving me BH vibes.
Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl
Same thing and claims that he is better than everyone else (in light of the BH-YKZ duality)
On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip.
27bunnie basically tacitly tells everyone to stop discussing blue because it will tell the mafia who are blue, but YKZ insists that this is a scumslip. Logic tells use that if YKZ is mafia, he cannot be blue and therefore the speculation is useless. If YKZ is town, discussion will only lure the mafia shot. Therefore, 27bunnie is correct is dissuading discussion from blue-talk but YKZ underscores it.
On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is.
Again, of course he would claim that he doesn't slip as mafia; he made a slip and must therefore defend his slip. This is baseless and mostly just "believe me please."
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I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ.
+ Show Spoiler +Since that took an hour, I will take a break and be back in a few hours
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On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts
First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true).
So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null.
The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb).
Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon.
On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole.
That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia.
Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis.
And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival).
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On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote.
@2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP)
@3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town.
next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch.
@4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia.
@5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip."
this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination.
See below:
On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now.
On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1.
Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\
+ Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed
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On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release
Currently this is our only point of discussion, although your vote on me now introduces a discussion about me.
I have not only rehashed what has already been said: I also introduced the idea that YKZ has deliberately misinterpreted what 27bn was saying to cause chaos, his excessive concern about himself as opposed to progress in the game and the unequivocal incorrectness in his logic. Essentially, his anti-town agenda, no just his vote against 27nb.
On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so?
I am voting for YKZ because (the words that answers a why questions) of "the idea that YKZ has deliberately misinterpreted what 27bn was saying to cause chaos, his excessive concern about himself as opposed to progress in the game and the unequivocal incorrectness in his logic" as well as that on which 27nb and I agree.
I merely provided evidence (my argument) and I think that it is correct. If however it is incorrect, I would of course like to be shown in what way I am wrong (or if you think that it is a justification: where it becomes justification and not reasoning). And I'm not sure how you separate justification from reasoning since I'm pretty sure that my justification for voting is my reasoning (how would one exist without the other when providing evidence against to vote for someone?).
On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post.
I disagree that this is inconsistent. The former says that I am in favor of bunnies. THe latter says that I believe with strong conviction that YKZ is scum. If you consider that the situation in which I am more certain that YKZ is scum than I believe that 27bn is town (I think a town in that position would have already brought up the points that I made, which to me were glaringly obvious), then this is consistent.
What I said in my post:
Unless you can prove to me (or anyone else) how Kenpachi's rule actually applies to what 27bunnie did (which would require a change of definition in my perspective, because as the current definition stands, 27bunnie is not mafia by the Kenpachi rule), you will have my vote.
As far as I know, his vote is still on 27nb and he has not retracted his use of the kenpachi rule. I am open to what may develop from him, but so far, all he's said is "I lied and acted intentionally scummy and you (27nb) have not acted strongly enough on it and therefore still mafia."
+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:16 slOosh wrote:
Alright, let's cut it out with the "Kenpachi Rule" and associated nomenclature. It isn't immediately clear to everyone and is muddling up the discussion.
Let's get this straight.
Bunnies, you think YKZ is scum because of the phrase "limited information"? His post paraphrased as "I'm not listening to you because you are town"?
YKZ, you think bunnies is scum for her initial call out of your post "I'm vt"?
Please try to be a bit more clear with your posts please. Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it On June 16 2014 12:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:34 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:16 slOosh wrote:
Alright, let's cut it out with the "Kenpachi Rule" and associated nomenclature. It isn't immediately clear to everyone and is muddling up the discussion.
Let's get this straight.
Bunnies, you think YKZ is scum because of the phrase "limited information"? His post paraphrased as "I'm not listening to you because you are town"?
YKZ, you think bunnies is scum for her initial call out of your post "I'm vt"?
Please try to be a bit more clear with your posts please. Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it You saying I'm not a real townie? I mean, if a guy is making a case on me (you're not, but 27nb is), why ignore all the weird shit I said after my first post? Or the fact that I like abjectly lied to the thread with intent to decieve? This is not the behavior that someone actually trying to hunt scum and thought bh was scum would exhibit after voting bh.
@Lazer My accusation is his repeated attempts to mislead town about the Kenpachi rule, what 27nb has done, his claim of eminence, and his lackluster and ultimately meaningless defenses. My accusation much more detailed and in depth than 27nb's. The scum slip is NOT my accusation; only the catalyst for the events that serve as evidence for my accusation.
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@Lazer (and everyone else): His actions alone are bad. The repetitiveness of the badness and refusal to change his play after being corrected manifest his mafia agenda.
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On June 17 2014 03:00 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 02:39 Release wrote:
@Lazer (and everyone else): His actions alone are bad. The repetitiveness of the badness and refusal to change his play after being corrected manifest his mafia agenda. "blazinghand is stubborn, therefore he is mafia" and "blazinghand has scumslipped, therefore he is mafia" are both sentences that are like always super doops wrong. I certainly can be stubborn as mafia, but I'm always stubborn. And the scumslip thing, come on guys. I legit don't scumslip as scum, and scumslip all the time as town, ask like anyone who has played more than 2 games with me. Also, I'm just generally a stubborn bastard no matter what I roll; again, ask anyone who has played with me. I will say this though: although I don't particularly like that Release is all over me like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit, I gotta give him credit: he IS all over me. He went through my filter and tried to find anything he could possibly construe as scummy and slapped it down in a big honkin filter dive case. Now, it's a big honkin WRONG filter drive case, but it's still a lot of effort. Maybe he was explicitly dodging Kenpachi Rule Extended, but he still gets mondo credit for putting in effort imo. Is release scummy for jumping in and just repeating what other people said? Eh, maybe. It's certainly a easy move for scum to make, but it's also worth noting that it's a move town would make. Suppose Release comes in and sees this horrible back and forth between me and 27nb, and for some weird reason becomes convinced I'm scum as a result. He wants to drop a vote on me, but also there's like no-one voting me, so he drops a hella big case. He does work, he does research. I give him credit for this, at least. Yes, it would have been good if he had an original idea, but if he didn't, he didn't. There's only so much to be said about me. Maybe you think he's scum because you think I'm scum and this is the most poorly executed bus ever, but really, 1) it would be a terrible way to do it, and 2) as SloOsh said (and he gets mucho townie points for this) you don't draw associative tells between unflipped players. Back onto the 27nb thing, Check it out. If you look at 27nb's filter, you see the initial push on me, and you see some interactions on me in places where I directly call out 27nb, but that's it as far as interactions with me. Check out some of the posts I made after the post that set off 27nb's "flag" so to speak about me being scummy: Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Also, your posts are giving me BH vibes.
Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl In this post i'm explicitly stating I'm not BH and trying to fake not being me. Even worse, I'm setting up the "bh claiming vt must be town" meme and I later "accidentally" reveal myself to be BH. If I were someone who thought YKZ was scum and saw this, I'd be all over it. I'd point out that it's awfully CONVENIENT to say that and then "accidentally" reveal yourself to be bh. I'd write a case, or at least a post, or heck, at least a SENTENCE, about this. Since I'm already suspicious of YKZ, since I supposedly have a scumread on YKZ, responding to this would be a NATURAL thing to do if I was town and voting YKZ. And yet, no response from 27nb (who was in thread at the time) next.. Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. Look at what I'm saying here. I'm literally admitting to lying to and deceiving the thread. I then say it's okay to lie and that the ends justify the means. Jesus christ on a stick with a cherry on top, how do you not flip out over this if you're town and think I'm scum? You'd be like "look, BH is obviously willing to lie. He was trying to pretend to be someone else while smurfing, which is a CLASSIC BH move when smurfing as scum. He even admits it, right here, in an attempt to defuse the situation. You can't let this slide guys, this is proof BH is scum" anyone who thinks I'm suspicious and has a vote on me, after reading that I admit to lying and trying to decieve the thread, would be ALL OVER this post. You want to know how 27nb responds, though? Here, I'll show you. Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:39 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. You are soooooo wrong on me. It's super bad. And tbh, idc what you think of yourself, but you haven't impressed me ass the "best" in TL Mafia. I caught your mafia self d1. Get rekt! And as I said, Kenpachi rule is useless and stupid, and it will be highly disproved this game. I have no need to backtrack, and I had not backtracked anywhere. I'm going forward with this lynch and into the abyss you go! All 27nb sees is the part of the post directed at her. She argues about like backtracking or whatever, and says she's going forward with this lynch while literally ignoring possibly the most damning statement a player could make. If she was really town and really thought I was scum, at this point she'd say, not "blah blah kenpachi rule backtracking, your'e so bad and i'm so good", she'd say, "ah hah! Caught you in a lie, blazinghand, this is exactly what scum do!" You can see she's clearly not in a mindset of hunting scum, or hell, even actually PUSHING The wagon. She is putting on a big SHOW of pushing the wagon, but she's not actually doing it. She's not pointing out what I'm posting, or why I'm scum, just shouting about like one sentence in one post. She's not hunting scum. She's making noise. This is because she lacks the town mindset, the mindset that someone who really thought I was scum would have. Because 27nb is scum. vote her, for justice.
@ first 4 paragraphs: The first sentence is again deliberate misrepresentation of the information that I have presented. Blazinghand is stubbornly wrong even when corrected and refuses to acknowledge corrections and is therefore mafia is the complete picture. This is the same misrepresentation of information he used earlier to cause chaos and it is used to cause chaos now. And the scumslip (which to my mind is the "more information") is NOT the reason that I think you are mafia. Please stop trying to twist information to suit your agenda. I do not merely repeat what has been said. I created a case on you with greater breadth and depth than 27nb did. And maybe you should pay more attention to what SloOsh is saying because he has asked useful questions when (mostly) you and 27nb have caused havoc in the thread. Now disregarding that, my case demonstrates that your logic in your play is incorrect. A proper defense is not to say "If I were scum, I would have..." because that is meaningless. Instead, you need to demonstrates that your logic is not incorrect. Otherwise, I think we should still construe YKZ's earlier posts as deliberate chaos.
On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 01:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Boring, why so? And I know I'm town, so you think Release is more likely scum defending a town here? Or do you think it's scum defending a partner this early into the game? I'm thinking we're both town here. Though, i agree, he is basically just sayng everything I've already said. Boring because you both just kept repeating the same things but in different words and it wasn't going anywhere for me to get a read on either of you. I don't know your alignment and I'm not going to make an association between unflipped players. People did that in cell. You supported that as mafia. Why are you trying to create associations now? Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. This gives me a slight scumread on you. Wanting to be right is an easy reason to lean back on without actually saying anything. Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 02:38 Release wrote:
Currently this is our only point of discussion, although your vote on me now introduces a discussion about me.
wordy words Boring. You could've introduced a discussion about anyone that had an opinion on the case for bullshit reasons. You also keep repeating yourself in the post as well. If you want me to actually read your posts thoroughly, be more to the point. I'm not interested in your description of what you provided and what you want. It won't help me get a more accurate read on you. Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that.
I "repeat" myself because YKZ makes similar chaotic plays with the same agenda.
I rehashed some of the dispute because I wanted to provide a complete argument as to why YKZ is mafia and I want to be specific about my references.
On June 17 2014 03:19 Lazermonkey wrote:@Release: I'm sorry, I missread your post a little bit. Your argument is actually quite different from Bunnies. I do, however, still fail to understand how YKZ actions make him scum. Your argument seems like WIFOM to me. It's like you assume that YKZ is already scum and then try to justify his actions from that point of you. Have you even considered YKZ's actions from a town PoV? Assuming that he is trying to create chaos by missinterpreting Bunnies is a big leap of faith. I also do think that there is merit to the Kenpachi rule in this case. Even if Bunnies said nummerous times that the VT claim wasn't the reason she voted for YKZ, she still pointed out two times: Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 09:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? Awwwww, how rude. Don't you know you are supposed to talk to a person when they are talking to you? Also-she. And Why right off the bat claim vt? Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:45 slOosh wrote:
Bunnies (ninja? 27?), who is smurf and why should we lynch him? YKZ is smurf. And at first, I just put him on the list to get conversation going. I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. Looking at these two posts, you get the impression that Bunnies is indeed suspicious of YKZ because of the claim. Bunnies later on refutes this by saying that her suspicion of YKZ had nothing to do with the VT claim, HOWEVER: Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? This post has no substance. And why would you talk down to bunny about him having limited information? Do you have less limited information? Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded. He says I have limited information. How would he know that I am town? Well, if he was mafia he would know that I am town. So ##Vote: YKZ Note the bolded part. It doesn't say "look, this is a really scummy thing YKZ said", it says "look, this is another point I don't like". If she didn't care about him claiming VT, why say that it was another part she didn't like? If there is something that I find null in someones filter I don't say "Hey, this is wierd". I just don't say a thing about it. And the thing is that Bunnies doesn't say anything about this untill YKZ votes her with because of the Kenpachi rule. It is therefore impossible for us to know whether she is talking the truth or not about not caring about the VT thing. Her actions in the thread does, however, indicate that this was something she cared about. Which makes me belive that all this was just a massive backpaddle by Bunnies after she got caught doing scummy stuff. ##Vote: 27ninjabunnies
Here is a very concise argument train of thought for you:
YKZ claims vt
27 questions claim and in a SEPARATE post votes for "limited information"
YKZ repeatedly claims that the vote is for the "vt" claim (incorrect/bad play, currently not particularly indicative of alignment)
27 states the vote is not for the claim, but for the "limited information"
(lots of back and forth) but ultimately, YKZ insists that 27 is scum because of vote due to her vote due to vt claim (incorrect again while being corrected).
here we consider: if YKZ were town, he would recognize his mistake and reevaluate the situation, and conclude that he was incorrect and therefore 27 is not mafia, and YKZ should unvote.
However, YKZ doesn't and, therefore, YKZ has made a conscious choice to ignore corrections to his play, which is indicative of mafia.
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But you should consider the magnitude of the reasoning. You are correct in sayi ng that "another" implies the vt is relevant. However, the next two sentences and the vote form an independently logical sequence of events (and the vt claim alone did not procure a vote). This implies that "limited information" is the main reason for the vote. Care about it? somewhat. Enough to merit use of Kenpachi rule? doubt it.
On June 17 2014 03:22 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 03:13 slOosh wrote:Hmm, not quite feeling the flaming spears of logic and justice yet. On June 16 2014 12:46 slOosh wrote:
I can see a somewhat reasonable case to be made that bunnies is not a stellar townie, but I don't see the case being made that she must be scum. Why isn't she "bad" town? I think my most recent post demonstrates that 27nb's attention is drawn towards statements about her, rather than incriminating things I say-- even a bad townie would naturally respond to me saying things like "I lied to decieve town because I thought I could get away with it", whereas scum regardless of badness would naturally respond to me saying kenpachi rule but NOT respond to additional evidence. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of mindset. A townie, even a new townie (I remember being one), when thyey have a scumread on someone and that person does something really scummy, they RESPOND to it. they add it to their case. It's the natural thought process of a town player REGARDLESS of skill. 27nb is not showing this natural thought process. Look at her responses to my posts. Is she responding to things I say that are scummy or inconsistent and pointing out their inconsistency? Or is she just shouting about my first post whenever she gets the chance, and not actually trying to convince people to lynch me based on new evidence that emerges? A townie who was really tunnelled on me would LOVE to point out new scummy things I say, because he's still trying to formulate and develop a case. 27nb is always talking about me, sure, but look at WHAT she's responding to. Not the stuff a townie would.
This is always your argument. 'Not one specific town agenda and therefore mafia." There are multiple ways to play town (since you clearly claim to enjoy pretending to scumslip and most others do not).
On June 17 2014 03:48 27ninjabunnies wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 03:40 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:33 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:21 slOosh wrote:
Lazermonkey, what is the "scummy stuff" that bunnies is backpedaling from? The quick version: 1. Bunnies says that YKZ's VT claim is wierd and that she doesn't like it. 2. Bunnies says that ANOTHER thing the she doesn't like about YKZ is his "scum slip". Bunnes votes for YKZ. 3. YKZ votes Bunnies because Kenpachi rule. 4. Bunnies claims that the VT claim wasn't a reason she voted YKZ. 4. It wasn't the MAIN reason I voted YKZ. Okay, I'm not really interested in discussing this further with you. My goal isn't to make you confess in the thread. Its to convince the others. It is basically that it is impossible for us to know that what you are claiming is true or not. Based on what you wrote earlier I do find it more likely that you are scum than that you are town though. Understandable: also ##UnvoteI know this is not going to get votes off of me, and I'm fine with that. But YKZ's last few posts have been a bit towny, especially his read on Artansis. I'm starting to worry we are two town fighting. I also don't want my judgement clouded by my vote on YKZ and would like to hear more from other people.
His posting has mostly been to say that town (a very specific town) would have done X but did Y and therefore mafia. Do you guys agree with this kind of arguement? Because I certainly do not. I urge you to reconsider you unvote on YKZ.
On June 17 2014 07:05 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? Hmm? How does it make him scum? On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. Where's the inconsistency? Leaning may not be indicative of degree of conviction, but merely the direction of it. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. You are starting to make associations here and I don't think that's a good idea. Focus on them as individuals. I'm not really sure what else to say here except that there's a large variance of degrees. How I see it, you have release saying "I'm leaning YKZ scum" on first quote and saying "I am unequivocally convinced YKZ is scum" on second one. Release has since posted something in disagreement, but this is what I see when looking at that post. What's more, when would town ever say "...what needs to be said to incriminate..."? That's some super-scummy wording. Town looks to determine who's scum, not to make someone look like scum. Further, when thinking back on my own games the way Release has posted is almost exactly how I handled my first mafia game. I posted a huge case on an easy target then AFK'ed, only posting when I felt I had to. Looking at a few of his past games (when he was town), he had a much easier to follow flow with his posts. Every post in this game feels very calculated, and given how I personally liked to post in previous games as scum, it's easy for me to see how as an insecure newbie scum he would feel inclined to stack as much together as he could into a few very carefully planted posts.
Incriminate: " To cause to appear guilty of a crime or fault; implicate"
I believe that YKZ is guilty of a crime of fault, but others do not share that opinion with me. Therefore, it is my duty to convince others (you) of his guilt by causing him to appear to be guilty. I see nothing wrong with the use of the word. It is an apt choice. (would you have preferred implicate? same meaning)
OP says to reduce spam / one-liners and I play the game fitfully (about an hour each time).
On June 17 2014 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 04:46 slOosh wrote:Yea I so I think Artanis is scum. On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Here is his first post, top of page 8. There are many unnatural things about this post. First is his complaining tone. We are only 5 pages in, and yet he calls it all "bullshit". It's totally out of place and unnatural. Then he moves away from it and blames Release. Two things here. One is that he does nothing to either comment on, or figure out said "bullshit". No reads or questions on either YKZ / 27nb. Nothing to try to figure either one out. Just a straight up dismissal of the whole thing, and moving on to someone else. Next is how he blames Release for it all. When I press him on this issue: On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. Nothing but fluff. He doesn't offer any meaningful reason why Release is scum. Look at the backpedaling. "oh yea I guess he added content. I could argue that wordiness isn't alignment null but I won't". He doesn't really care to convince me or others why he finds Release scum. He just wants to put his vote somewhere to look like he is contributing. He dodges the question the first time around so I ask him again: On June 17 2014 03:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 03:17 slOosh wrote:On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. How is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He's the perpetrator of the conversation continuing about that specific topic. Ridiculous. Release is trying to make sense of the debacle, and Artanis is overexaggerating, blaming him for "perpetrating" this "bullshit", while making no effort to either figure out the YKZ / bunnies thing himself, nor make clear how Release is scum for it. Just vague handwaving and avoiding the biggest discussion topic at the time. Artanis is unnatural, Artanis is apathetic, Artanis is scum. ##Vote Artanis[Xp] I think this post makes slOosh scum. DETAILS AT ELEVEN!!!
Really? Because he has been the one asking clarifying questions, obviously with a purpose behind them. That fits townie agenda of forwarding the game in my book.
Currently, I feel confident in SloOsh and Lazer as town for candid presentation of information and quetions. I feel that 27nb is town but to a lesser extent.
I feel confident in YKZ as mafia.
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As I have said more than once now about the VT claim:
Yes she mentions it in post above her vote. Yes she says "another."
However, the fact that the sentences after that and the vote form a coherent independent sequence of events strongly suggests to me that the primary reason (and ultimately only relevant reason, otherwise we all would have seen a vote in the first post questioning the VT claim) was the "limited information." Therefore, I have reviewed my actions and statements (more than once now) and they are correct.
Yes, we have roles but if you read the OP closely, the Mafia Godfather sends his role on N1 or Night 1 which is after today. We have no reason to believe that any other role acts before Night 1. Therefore, no roles have any more information than anyone else except the mafia, who know exactly who is town, and who is mafia. AND, if you have been following closely, "limited information" was an intentional "scumslip" to solicit the use of the Kenpachi rule. However, my reasoning for the YKZ lynch is not for the utterance of "limited information" but for the actions that YKZ took afterwards.
I am not wrong. However, this is the second (or more?) time that you have claimed that I am wrong, and I have had to repeat myself (which of course will cause Artanis to give his mandatory "omg release stop rehashing" speech).
And in the bolded section (3 posts before this), the connection is not as glaring as the fact that you say "Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. " which does not make sense at all. (Again) wanting someone (YKZ) as town does not make the other player (27bn) mafia, but you say that regardless which is ridiculous.
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Not on day 1 and there is no point in talking about it on day 1.
I read it and it does not excuse illogical play. Regardless of 0/1/2 of 2 scum, you wish does not affect their roles. You soft retract your statement by saying it's a bad reason, but why say it in the first place if that is the case?
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This is mafia. We don't fantasize about outcomes. Instead, we try to determine who is and who isn't mafia.
You vote for mafia. You don't vote for town. Since you strongly imply that you think there is one scum between the two, saying that you would prefer to vote 27nb while simultaneously praising YKZ as a knowledge town player sounds like the situation i originally presented. However, in light of the fact that this was not a particularly salient outcome, I can see that it is not so ridiculous as I first thought.
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If you read the original situation in which the information is said, the information relates to 27nb calling out 3 purported mafia and YKZ saying she has less information. It pertains to knowing who and who isn't mafia, and in this case, VT and PR are equally informed (since it is day 1). Knowing there is a pr does not in any way help call out 3 mafia. Therefore it is the same and we should stop talking about PRs.
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Limited very strongly implies less. Otherwise, there is no point in mentioning it.
Yes, in a counter claim scenario, PR is info. But, I am talking strictly about the interaction b/w YKZ and 27bn.
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On June 17 2014 15:42 goodkarma wrote:
--snip--
And it's not like he's been eager to engage in conversation with you or investigate or get others to side with him. And yet he's just very much so convinced you're scum...
When I present information, it now exists for town to discuss, and in my case against YKZ, it puts the onus on him to disprove my arguments. However, he has repeatedly chosen to dismiss my points and provide meaningless hypothetical defenses. This is why he seems so scum to me and remains scum more than anyone else.
With regard to the Mderg situation:
His first post is bad because of it vacillation but at least he takes a firm stance at the end (albeit for somewhat unclear reasons). He also accuses VE for a lack of specificity but does to a lesser extent the same thing with Artanis and SloOsh. And to a lesser extent than YKZ, he seems more focussed on himself than most others. To me he is one the the weaker candidates for mafia outside YKZ.
@Lazer
Someone whom I think is a stronger candidate for mafia outside YKZ is Snickers. At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts. Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis. He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so. He even says "I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing." And if that weren't enough, he hops straight onto the Mderg train. This is a little bit of bluehunting covered by a boatload of bandwagoning. His agenda feels like one in which he wants to blend into the town instead of making his own reads and arguments. At first, I pardoned him because he wasn't as stubborn as YKZ but this level of bandwagoning suggests to me that he is more likely scum than town.
Artanis is on my suspicion list because he his reasoning against me been (I strongly believe) wrong, but he has been firm but not stubborn or inordinately foccused on one topic. His dismissal of YKZ vs 27nb is something that suggests he may be mafia with one of YKZ (my pick) or 27nb but that is a bit of a stretch atm.
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On June 18 2014 06:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 05:58 Release wrote:
Artanis is on my suspicion list because he his reasoning against me been (I strongly believe) wrong, but he has been firm but not stubborn or inordinately foccused on one topic. His dismissal of YKZ vs 27nb is something that suggests he may be mafia with one of YKZ (my pick) or 27nb but that is a bit of a stretch atm.
I didn't know being wrong was suspicious. I don't understand why I'm on your suspicion list when this is all you provide for it.
Wrong more than once about the same thing (my rehash repetiveness) even after SloOsh's statements. It's slight but more significant to me than null.
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I strongly urge you guys to reconsider YKZ vs 27nb. YKZ makes zero effort to consider something other than Kenpachi rule. Always dismisses 27nb's comments by saying he planted the vt claim and therefore it is the reason for 27nb's vote. His logic is not correct. Reread his filter and literally start considering boolean logic when you do so. His posts do not add up; he just commits to this play and hides behind it to wreak chaos.
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I'm pretty sure everyone knows my opinion at this point.
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On June 18 2014 08:13 Release wrote:
I strongly urge you guys to reconsider YKZ vs 27nb. YKZ makes zero effort to consider something other than Kenpachi rule. Always dismisses 27nb's comments by saying he planted the vt claim and therefore it is the reason for 27nb's vote. His logic is not correct. Reread his filter and literally start considering boolean logic when you do so. His posts do not add up; he just commits to this play and hides behind it to wreak chaos.
Yes, all game, Bunnies has not been necessarily town, only more townie due to BH's scumminess. However, read my post before the lynch again and you'll see that this is only an attack on BH and the defense of 27nb is a corollary of attacking BH.
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My stance still has not changed too much.
I still urge you guys to really thoroughly check out YKZ's filter and go through his posts and try to follow his logic. It does NOT make sense and you should be realizing this. I feel like this point is not being taken seriously enough. Really do this. I'm not kidding.
On June 18 2014 05:38 mderg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 04:24 Lazermonkey wrote:Mderg is just... Look through this part of his first post for example. On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote:SNIP The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong, bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:16 slOosh wrote:
Alright, let's cut it out with the "Kenpachi Rule" and associated nomenclature. It isn't immediately clear to everyone and is muddling up the discussion.
Let's get this straight.
Bunnies, you think YKZ is scum because of the phrase "limited information"? His post paraphrased as "I'm not listening to you because you are town"?
YKZ, you think bunnies is scum for her initial call out of your post "I'm vt"?
Please try to be a bit more clear with your posts please. Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. SNIP ##vote 27ninjabunnies So his logic is something like this: 1. Since YKZ are battling each other they cannot both be scum. 2. And YKZ is probably town (for some really wierd reasoning). 3. Its possible that Bunnies is scum, points out several stuff that Bunnies that is alignment unindicative. 4. Dislikes that Bunnies says that Release is scummy but doesn't want him to be scum. This is like the only part that makes sense. Then he proceeds to vote him. This vote is so out of place that I cannot even describe it with words. Pointing out several things that he even himself says isn't alignment indicative is just unnecessary. Yes, he said he disliked one of Bunnies posts. But he also said that he disliked Snickers and Release posting. Why vote Bunnies? Because it was the current wagon? This shit just seem to careless to be scum. You don't see scum posting posts liek this because that's all scum care about, looking good. I'm calling bad town here. ##Unvote My logic was different. I never said that they cannot both be scum. I also didn´t point out several things out that were alignment unindicative, it was one point made by YKZ that I don´t think is actually scummy. The things I didn´t like about her were the focus on the "scumslip" by YKZ, the thing about Release and townreading Artanis. Clearly more things that I think are scummy than things not alignment indicative. The thing(s) I pointed out that weren´t alignment indicative were points brought up by YKZ which I didn´t really agree with. That´s the reason for bringing it up. I think you´re "defending" me for the wrong reasons. Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 02:29 Snickers wrote:On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote:I almost forgot about this due to the world cup  The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong, bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:16 slOosh wrote:
Alright, let's cut it out with the "Kenpachi Rule" and associated nomenclature. It isn't immediately clear to everyone and is muddling up the discussion.
Let's get this straight.
Bunnies, you think YKZ is scum because of the phrase "limited information"? His post paraphrased as "I'm not listening to you because you are town"?
YKZ, you think bunnies is scum for her initial call out of your post "I'm vt"?
Please try to be a bit more clear with your posts please. Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: " As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies."
And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. It also feels like townreading Artanis is some kind of "You´re scumreading me, so I´ll townread you". I think Snickers has been posting strangely. As if he wanted to play the newbie card without stating that he´s new. His general thought process doesn´t show a scum mindset, though. I didn´t really like where he talked about associations between bunnies and VKZ. IMO pre-flip associations are bad most of the time. Release had a not so perfect entrance to this thread. At first glance his case on YKZ seemed good but it basically comes down to the few points bunnies has made on YKZ and that he stuck to the Kenpachi rule for so long. That´s not very much considering the length of his posts. What kinda speaks in his favor is how suddenly several people jumped on him after Artanis made his case on him. Still kinda neutral on him, maybe a bit scummy. I´m having a townread on sloosh right now. Mainly because his posting feels different from Detention where we were scum together. He´s asking questions and seems to be trying to get behind the reasons from the others. I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him. Not much on the others, yet. I´ll hopefully post more tomorrow.##vote 27ninjabunnies Yea it seems really strange that you are only leaning towards somebody and you vote for them. Saying that you are not 100% sure you will return to the game to reevaluate the situation. It would be terrible for a town to vote for someone with only about half the information we have. Then say he may not change it until the lynch. So you were leaning towards bunnies but felt she was scum enough that if you did not make it to a computer she could be lynched because of this vote. ##Unvote
##Vote mdergI still think Release is scum but I am more confident that mderg is at this time. Also we have to consolidate our posts and i think it would be easier for people to see this slip. Also more people on mderg atm than release. I was pretty heavily leaning scum on bunnies, so voting her seems logical, doesn´t it? I was also pretty sure that I´d be here today, just not how much time I could invest. Your reasoning that she could be lynched because of this one vote is flawed. Even in the case that I could not get to a computer today placing the vote would have been the correct choice. Taking the risk that bunnies is potentially mislynched when I think she´s more likely scum than town is better than risk being modkilled.Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 02:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 18 2014 02:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 18 2014 01:34 mderg wrote:
I generally don´t ask that many direct questions, I rather point things out that I find strange and most of the time people respond to these things. So it should have about the same effect as asking questions. Just scrolled through your Cell Mini (Town) and Detention (Mafia) games. You actually asked a lot more questions as mafia. Interesting. Carry on. EBWOP What do you take from this, though? Also, what the hell is it with Chezinu? He doesn´t even try to make sense.
Mderg's wording is bad. No Snickers, you are not completely wrong. In fact, "Then he tries to say he votes to prevent mod kill. " (-Snickers) is a completely accurate statement. However, it is not scummy since Mderg knows that he is town as much as anyone else knows they are town. Therefore, for him, having a modkill is 100% chance of bad, whereas a 27nb lynch, for him and I stress for him because you, snickers, seem not to understand, is less than 100% bad. It is consistent.
Mderg's "completely wrong" response is kind of illogical, but it feels like he is responding to the sentiment, not the literal candid meaning.
Before I focused on the Bandwagony nature of Snickers to put him on my scumlist, but you guys bring up a good point about the way in which his posts harp on specific phrases and sentences. The bandwagon nature is still something that should be review, and the motivation for his harping on specific phrases and sentences is probably to jump on a bandwagon later and cite them as original/self-motivated votes.
So snickers now takes a more serious position on my scumlist, but YKZ easily takes the top spot and I still definitely want to lynch him.
##Vote YKZ
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On June 18 2014 05:58 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 15:42 goodkarma wrote:
--snip--
And it's not like he's been eager to engage in conversation with you or investigate or get others to side with him. And yet he's just very much so convinced you're scum... When I present information, it now exists for town to discuss, and in my case against YKZ, it puts the onus on him to disprove my arguments. However, he has repeatedly chosen to dismiss my points and provide meaningless hypothetical defenses. This is why he seems so scum to me and remains scum more than anyone else. With regard to the Mderg situation: His first post is bad because of it vacillation but at least he takes a firm stance at the end (albeit for somewhat unclear reasons). He also accuses VE for a lack of specificity but does to a lesser extent the same thing with Artanis and SloOsh. And to a lesser extent than YKZ, he seems more focussed on himself than most others. To me he is one the the weaker candidates for mafia outside YKZ. @Lazer Someone whom I think is a stronger candidate for mafia outside YKZ is Snickers. At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts. Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis. He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so. He even says "I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing." And if that weren't enough, he hops straight onto the Mderg train. This is a little bit of bluehunting covered by a boatload of bandwagoning. His agenda feels like one in which he wants to blend into the town instead of making his own reads and arguments. At first, I pardoned him because he wasn't as stubborn as YKZ but this level of bandwagoning suggests to me that he is more likely scum than town. Artanis is on my suspicion list because he his reasoning against me been (I strongly believe) wrong, but he has been firm but not stubborn or inordinately foccused on one topic. His dismissal of YKZ vs 27nb is something that suggests he may be mafia with one of YKZ (my pick) or 27nb but that is a bit of a stretch atm.
I made a case for you, Snickers. Please read the thread.
Are you talking about new information in general, or new information about YKZ? If it's YKZ (or even you), I have not presented much new information because instead of refuting my points, YKZ and you continue to dismiss or ignore my points, indicating to me that you two cannot refute my points and are therefore scum. YKZ has made less of an effort than you to do so, so he gets my vote for today, until he does something to refute my points (as I said on Day 1, which he dismissed)..
VE's disgruntledness/lurkiness is bad but not even close to as bad as the way in which YKZ, in particular, and you try to mislead the town.
Koshi also deserves a special mention for his lackadaisicalness, but like VE, not as serious of an infringement as that of YKZ and you (Snickers).
Mderg would also get a mention, but I feel increasingly much that Snickers is trying to put him in the same position as 27nb on Day 1.
The rest seem to be presenting information and ideas well so I feel that they are towny.
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I quoted it for you and you still didn't read it.
"@Lazer
Someone whom I think is a stronger candidate for mafia outside YKZ is Snickers. At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts. Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis. He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so. He even says "I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing." And if that weren't enough, he hops straight onto the Mderg train. This is a little bit of bluehunting covered by a boatload of bandwagoning. His agenda feels like one in which he wants to blend into the town instead of making his own reads and arguments. At first, I pardoned him because he wasn't as stubborn as YKZ but this level of bandwagoning suggests to me that he is more likely scum than town."
On June 19 2014 14:26 Snickers wrote:
Very funny how you now say these other names after i ridicule you on trying to focus on one. Too bad it is all lies.
It sounded like you want opinions on everyone. Do you now not want me to give my opinions? Say one thing then imply the other so you can move either way in the future and not appear suspicious? Your comment is ridiculous and serves only to cause havoc. My focus on YKZ and you should already tell you that you two are significantly higher on my mafialist than others.+ Show Spoiler [in short] +He asks for something that might actually be useful, I provide it, he calls me mafia. Ridiculous
Regardless, my comments on the others only solidify the fact that I DO want to focus much more on YKZ and you than everyone else because they have not presented significant enough reason for me to think that they are likely mafia (unlike YKZ and you).
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I'm really limited on time right now but VE, here is something to consider for Mderg, which while rereading his filter, I found somewhat strange: When I consider the motivation/agenda behind his posts, I find it easier to fit a towny agenda since he doesn't hide his reads or information. However, when he is pressured, his logic does deteriorate, which could certainly represent mafia that cannot adequately refute claims.
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+ Show Spoiler [3post sequence] +On June 19 2014 14:26 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:09 Release wrote:On June 18 2014 05:58 Release wrote:On June 17 2014 15:42 goodkarma wrote:
--snip--
And it's not like he's been eager to engage in conversation with you or investigate or get others to side with him. And yet he's just very much so convinced you're scum... When I present information, it now exists for town to discuss, and in my case against YKZ, it puts the onus on him to disprove my arguments. However, he has repeatedly chosen to dismiss my points and provide meaningless hypothetical defenses. This is why he seems so scum to me and remains scum more than anyone else. With regard to the Mderg situation: His first post is bad because of it vacillation but at least he takes a firm stance at the end (albeit for somewhat unclear reasons). He also accuses VE for a lack of specificity but does to a lesser extent the same thing with Artanis and SloOsh. And to a lesser extent than YKZ, he seems more focussed on himself than most others. To me he is one the the weaker candidates for mafia outside YKZ. @Lazer Someone whom I think is a stronger candidate for mafia outside YKZ is Snickers. At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts. Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis. He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so. He even says "I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing." And if that weren't enough, he hops straight onto the Mderg train. This is a little bit of bluehunting covered by a boatload of bandwagoning. His agenda feels like one in which he wants to blend into the town instead of making his own reads and arguments. At first, I pardoned him because he wasn't as stubborn as YKZ but this level of bandwagoning suggests to me that he is more likely scum than town. Artanis is on my suspicion list because he his reasoning against me been (I strongly believe) wrong, but he has been firm but not stubborn or inordinately foccused on one topic. His dismissal of YKZ vs 27nb is something that suggests he may be mafia with one of YKZ (my pick) or 27nb but that is a bit of a stretch atm. I made a case for you, Snickers. Please read the thread. Are you talking about new information in general, or new information about YKZ? If it's YKZ (or even you), I have not presented much new information because instead of refuting my points, YKZ and you continue to dismiss or ignore my points, indicating to me that you two cannot refute my points and are therefore scum. YKZ has made less of an effort than you to do so, so he gets my vote for today, until he does something to refute my points (as I said on Day 1, which he dismissed).. VE's disgruntledness/lurkiness is bad but not even close to as bad as the way in which YKZ, in particular, and you try to mislead the town. Koshi also deserves a special mention for his lackadaisicalness, but like VE, not as serious of an infringement as that of YKZ and you (Snickers). Mderg would also get a mention, but I feel increasingly much that Snickers is trying to put him in the same position as 27nb on Day 1. The rest seem to be presenting information and ideas well so I feel that they are towny. at this point I see only lies in your posts. I will let the others decide.I really would encourage you to show me where your case is on me and where i dismiss or ignore your points. Very funny how you now say these other names after i ridicule you on trying to focus on one. Too bad it is all lies. On June 19 2014 15:01 Release wrote:I quoted it for you and you still didn't read it. "@Lazer Someone whom I think is a stronger candidate for mafia outside YKZ is Snickers. At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts. Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis. He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so. He even says "I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing." And if that weren't enough, he hops straight onto the Mderg train. This is a little bit of bluehunting covered by a boatload of bandwagoning. His agenda feels like one in which he wants to blend into the town instead of making his own reads and arguments. At first, I pardoned him because he wasn't as stubborn as YKZ but this level of bandwagoning suggests to me that he is more likely scum than town." Show nested quote +On June 19 2014 14:26 Snickers wrote:
Very funny how you now say these other names after i ridicule you on trying to focus on one. Too bad it is all lies. It sounded like you want opinions on everyone. Do you now not want me to give my opinions? Say one thing then imply the other so you can move either way in the future and not appear suspicious? Your comment is ridiculous and serves only to cause havoc. My focus on YKZ and you should already tell you that you two are significantly higher on my mafialist than others. + Show Spoiler [in short] +He asks for something that might actually be useful, I provide it, he calls me mafia. Ridiculous Regardless, my comments on the others only solidify the fact that I DO want to focus much more on YKZ and you than everyone else because they have not presented significant enough reason for me to think that they are likely mafia (unlike YKZ and you). On June 19 2014 15:09 Snickers wrote:
Yes only focus on two people when three could be mafia. Yes lets focus on people since that worked out so well for you day one.
Also that was very predictable your comment in spoilers. Also you are doing the same back and fourth we had day one.
My THIRD time quoting my case against him and still nothing. Day 1, Snickers never responds to it. That is where he ignored it.
Day 2, he doesn't read and claims that I do not have a case and he never ignore/dismiss (1 misrepresentation of information, and its corollary)
Then, instead of responding to the case, he criticizes the very general (and again not correct; I have mentioned who I thought were strong town to me earlier) nature of my play, and a specific phrase/summary (not actual response to any part of it).
He refuses to and avoids responding to my points because he CANNOT do so without acknowedging the scummy nature of his actions.
On June 20 2014 06:48 Snickers wrote:
Yo ykz and chezinu. Care to explain how you are playing to win.
I think the only way you are playing to win is if your mafia.
You guys must get a high off of being confusing.
This is an archetype of his posts. No reasoning or explanations.
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YKZ: another day, more dissatisfaction and haughtiness, another promise.
VE: activity indicates otherwise, but he is generating good discussion and for this he pushes himself away from my scumlist.
Koshi: Very empty filter, some questions, not much follow up, and not much opinions. He is probably the third mafia.
Mderg: The much less likely third mafia candidate. His words seem to obfuscate his meaning (and betray that he might be mafia) but he is able to explain himself and I say again that I find it is easier to fit a town agenda to him than a mafia agenda; he is responsive and he forms opinions which is more than I can say for the other three (YKZ, Snickers, Koshi).
Everyone else, I really doubt could possibly be mafia.
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We must wait for YKZ's promise to come through, but in the meantime, what do you guys think about VE?
Also, time to decipher Chez's posts.
+ Show Spoiler +Real life hectic past day. Believe it/don't. W/e
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Foreword: If you paid attention to my case any other time, read after "Why stop there:"
On June 21 2014 02:48 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 23:43 Koshi wrote:On June 20 2014 22:54 Lazermonkey wrote:
I'm busy today as well but will hopefully at least be able to post during the lynch. I don't really get the BH wagon yet though. Well, I do get it but I don't get how people would rather vote for BH than they would vote for VE or Koshi.
Untill his reason vote he didn't have a single scum read what so ever. And it IS very convinient that he votes that number 1 lynchbait... I am voting for the only person who has a case made against him. Two even. Do you disagree with the cases? I don't so I vote Mderg. What do you mean with you don't understand why people are voting BH? BH pushed bunnies like a mofo and then disappeared, only to come back do nothing and taunt everybody, so he got votes. I am only doing the do nothing part, so I got less votes than BH. Now that BH did something everybody should comment on that. Is the case legit or is it not? For me the case is very legit and well made so I am ok with BH. Somewhere I should look at the meta of BH in djinn game and in Ver game because he tunneled town D1 in both those games. I will do that later. Voting me is pretty boring btw. I pinkysweared I was town when I entered the game. That should be enough. On top of that I am voting for the best cases in the thread, I am not pushing my own agenda in the thread, and I do not hide any of my reasoning from the thread. I already told you people to look at the people who didn't vote Mderg D1. Scum never votes together. It simply doesn't happen ever. If I had to guess I would say Snickers is the scummer between the 4 but he is on Mderg ass since D1 so meh. Snickers hasn't been answering any of my questions and is just ignoring everything and pushing Release/Mderg.
But I am not pushing anything this game. People that lie frequently. 1.Koshi 2.Release People that play this game annoyingly (regardless of alignment most likely) 1.YKZ 2.Chezinu Mderg do you have a question. My filter will answer it for you. Also funny how i commented on Release's whole "case" on me and he still "thinks" i did not. Do not think it is a case since he summarizes stuff and does not quote. Also lets see who is the first to find out that YKZ's case on mderg is repeating what me and another person said. Then he completely takes the post i quoted and says the exact same thing. He even says he is sure somebody said this.
You ask and I guess you will receive. (It is a case. A summary of mafia play means mafia play was there).
At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts
This is already well into the day and YKZ has detailed his application of the kenpachi rule. Despite initially disliking the use of the Kenpachi rule + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum. I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole.
Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts.
The last quoted post does exactly that. Bad reasoning to support YKZ's incorrect claims. Let's also go back to this + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release On June 17 2014 02:17 Snickers wrote:
Ok I'm on a mobile phone ATM and will not have a proper keyboard 9 hours from now.
First off. 27nb i will try to be more clear in nine hours with examples. My overall feelings on you is this. You were being super confident but did not use all the smack talk available to you. Again I will try to be more clear later.
Somebody wanted to know my thoughts on release.
For awhile I started to think that neither he , 27nb or ykz was scum. I think 27nb is most likely town now.
I think release is actually scum. He has aligned himself with bunnies and defended her but I think she was not in need of defense . I do not see a reason to defend someone not in trouble unless u know they are town. I think release saw a good time to cause confusion while also looking extremly town. It is good to align with a town as scum as a future defense, right?
Some people think I am siding with YKZ. I do not think it is smart to be siding with someone so early unless u know his or her role. I would argue I was going after 27 nab rather than defending YKZ. Also i said he seems knowledgable.
I think he def still is because of his knowledge on the lenpachi rule. You guys have been saying his use of it was wrong but not his definition of it. Also he is bh which u guys know him so he has played a lot. It seems weird for a player that has played a lot to slip so early. ( I know it sounds life I'm defending him now) I think he is knowledgable regardless of his role.
His posts do seem weird tho. He adds on little joking phrases to the end of some posts. Also why create a smurf then show ur actual self. I think he was reacting strongly to something.
He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so.
Read the thread. You should be able to find it.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. On June 17 2014 11:50 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 08:25 Release wrote:On June 17 2014 03:00 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 02:39 Release wrote:
@Lazer (and everyone else): His actions alone are bad. The repetitiveness of the badness and refusal to change his play after being corrected manifest his mafia agenda. "blazinghand is stubborn, therefore he is mafia" and "blazinghand has scumslipped, therefore he is mafia" are both sentences that are like always super doops wrong. I certainly can be stubborn as mafia, but I'm always stubborn. And the scumslip thing, come on guys. I legit don't scumslip as scum, and scumslip all the time as town, ask like anyone who has played more than 2 games with me. Also, I'm just generally a stubborn bastard no matter what I roll; again, ask anyone who has played with me. I will say this though: although I don't particularly like that Release is all over me like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit, I gotta give him credit: he IS all over me. He went through my filter and tried to find anything he could possibly construe as scummy and slapped it down in a big honkin filter dive case. Now, it's a big honkin WRONG filter drive case, but it's still a lot of effort. Maybe he was explicitly dodging Kenpachi Rule Extended, but he still gets mondo credit for putting in effort imo. Is release scummy for jumping in and just repeating what other people said? Eh, maybe. It's certainly a easy move for scum to make, but it's also worth noting that it's a move town would make. Suppose Release comes in and sees this horrible back and forth between me and 27nb, and for some weird reason becomes convinced I'm scum as a result. He wants to drop a vote on me, but also there's like no-one voting me, so he drops a hella big case. He does work, he does research. I give him credit for this, at least. Yes, it would have been good if he had an original idea, but if he didn't, he didn't. There's only so much to be said about me. Maybe you think he's scum because you think I'm scum and this is the most poorly executed bus ever, but really, 1) it would be a terrible way to do it, and 2) as SloOsh said (and he gets mucho townie points for this) you don't draw associative tells between unflipped players. Back onto the 27nb thing, Check it out. If you look at 27nb's filter, you see the initial push on me, and you see some interactions on me in places where I directly call out 27nb, but that's it as far as interactions with me. Check out some of the posts I made after the post that set off 27nb's "flag" so to speak about me being scummy: On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Also, your posts are giving me BH vibes.
Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl In this post i'm explicitly stating I'm not BH and trying to fake not being me. Even worse, I'm setting up the "bh claiming vt must be town" meme and I later "accidentally" reveal myself to be BH. If I were someone who thought YKZ was scum and saw this, I'd be all over it. I'd point out that it's awfully CONVENIENT to say that and then "accidentally" reveal yourself to be bh. I'd write a case, or at least a post, or heck, at least a SENTENCE, about this. Since I'm already suspicious of YKZ, since I supposedly have a scumread on YKZ, responding to this would be a NATURAL thing to do if I was town and voting YKZ. And yet, no response from 27nb (who was in thread at the time) next.. On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. Look at what I'm saying here. I'm literally admitting to lying to and deceiving the thread. I then say it's okay to lie and that the ends justify the means. Jesus christ on a stick with a cherry on top, how do you not flip out over this if you're town and think I'm scum? You'd be like "look, BH is obviously willing to lie. He was trying to pretend to be someone else while smurfing, which is a CLASSIC BH move when smurfing as scum. He even admits it, right here, in an attempt to defuse the situation. You can't let this slide guys, this is proof BH is scum" anyone who thinks I'm suspicious and has a vote on me, after reading that I admit to lying and trying to decieve the thread, would be ALL OVER this post. You want to know how 27nb responds, though? Here, I'll show you. On June 16 2014 11:39 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. You are soooooo wrong on me. It's super bad. And tbh, idc what you think of yourself, but you haven't impressed me ass the "best" in TL Mafia. I caught your mafia self d1. Get rekt! And as I said, Kenpachi rule is useless and stupid, and it will be highly disproved this game. I have no need to backtrack, and I had not backtracked anywhere. I'm going forward with this lynch and into the abyss you go! All 27nb sees is the part of the post directed at her. She argues about like backtracking or whatever, and says she's going forward with this lynch while literally ignoring possibly the most damning statement a player could make. If she was really town and really thought I was scum, at this point she'd say, not "blah blah kenpachi rule backtracking, your'e so bad and i'm so good", she'd say, "ah hah! Caught you in a lie, blazinghand, this is exactly what scum do!" You can see she's clearly not in a mindset of hunting scum, or hell, even actually PUSHING The wagon. She is putting on a big SHOW of pushing the wagon, but she's not actually doing it. She's not pointing out what I'm posting, or why I'm scum, just shouting about like one sentence in one post. She's not hunting scum. She's making noise. This is because she lacks the town mindset, the mindset that someone who really thought I was scum would have. Because 27nb is scum. vote her, for justice. @ first 4 paragraphs: The first sentence is again deliberate misrepresentation of the information that I have presented. Blazinghand is stubbornly wrong even when corrected and refuses to acknowledge corrections and is therefore mafia is the complete picture. This is the same misrepresentation of information he used earlier to cause chaos and it is used to cause chaos now. And the scumslip (which to my mind is the "more information") is NOT the reason that I think you are mafia. Please stop trying to twist information to suit your agenda. I do not merely repeat what has been said. I created a case on you with greater breadth and depth than 27nb did. And maybe you should pay more attention to what SloOsh is saying because he has asked useful questions when (mostly) you and 27nb have caused havoc in the thread. Now disregarding that, my case demonstrates that your logic in your play is incorrect. A proper defense is not to say "If I were scum, I would have..." because that is meaningless. Instead, you need to demonstrates that your logic is not incorrect. Otherwise, I think we should still construe YKZ's earlier posts as deliberate chaos. On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 01:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Boring, why so? And I know I'm town, so you think Release is more likely scum defending a town here? Or do you think it's scum defending a partner this early into the game? I'm thinking we're both town here. Though, i agree, he is basically just sayng everything I've already said. Boring because you both just kept repeating the same things but in different words and it wasn't going anywhere for me to get a read on either of you. I don't know your alignment and I'm not going to make an association between unflipped players. People did that in cell. You supported that as mafia. Why are you trying to create associations now? On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. This gives me a slight scumread on you. Wanting to be right is an easy reason to lean back on without actually saying anything. On June 17 2014 02:38 Release wrote:
Currently this is our only point of discussion, although your vote on me now introduces a discussion about me.
wordy words Boring. You could've introduced a discussion about anyone that had an opinion on the case for bullshit reasons. You also keep repeating yourself in the post as well. If you want me to actually read your posts thoroughly, be more to the point. I'm not interested in your description of what you provided and what you want. It won't help me get a more accurate read on you. On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. I "repeat" myself because YKZ makes similar chaotic plays with the same agenda. I rehashed some of the dispute because I wanted to provide a complete argument as to why YKZ is mafia and I want to be specific about my references. On June 17 2014 03:19 Lazermonkey wrote:@Release: I'm sorry, I missread your post a little bit. Your argument is actually quite different from Bunnies. I do, however, still fail to understand how YKZ actions make him scum. Your argument seems like WIFOM to me. It's like you assume that YKZ is already scum and then try to justify his actions from that point of you. Have you even considered YKZ's actions from a town PoV? Assuming that he is trying to create chaos by missinterpreting Bunnies is a big leap of faith. I also do think that there is merit to the Kenpachi rule in this case. Even if Bunnies said nummerous times that the VT claim wasn't the reason she voted for YKZ, she still pointed out two times: On June 16 2014 09:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? Awwwww, how rude. Don't you know you are supposed to talk to a person when they are talking to you? Also-she. And Why right off the bat claim vt? On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:45 slOosh wrote:
Bunnies (ninja? 27?), who is smurf and why should we lynch him? YKZ is smurf. And at first, I just put him on the list to get conversation going. I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. Looking at these two posts, you get the impression that Bunnies is indeed suspicious of YKZ because of the claim. Bunnies later on refutes this by saying that her suspicion of YKZ had nothing to do with the VT claim, HOWEVER: On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? This post has no substance. And why would you talk down to bunny about him having limited information? Do you have less limited information? Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded. He says I have limited information. How would he know that I am town? Well, if he was mafia he would know that I am town. So ##Vote: YKZ Note the bolded part. It doesn't say "look, this is a really scummy thing YKZ said", it says "look, this is another point I don't like". If she didn't care about him claiming VT, why say that it was another part she didn't like? If there is something that I find null in someones filter I don't say "Hey, this is wierd". I just don't say a thing about it. And the thing is that Bunnies doesn't say anything about this untill YKZ votes her with because of the Kenpachi rule. It is therefore impossible for us to know whether she is talking the truth or not about not caring about the VT thing. Her actions in the thread does, however, indicate that this was something she cared about. Which makes me belive that all this was just a massive backpaddle by Bunnies after she got caught doing scummy stuff. ##Vote: 27ninjabunnies Here is a very concise argument train of thought for you: YKZ claims vt 27 questions claim and in a SEPARATE post votes for "limited information" YKZ repeatedly claims that the vote is for the "vt" claim (incorrect/bad play, currently not particularly indicative of alignment) 27 states the vote is not for the claim, but for the "limited information" (lots of back and forth) but ultimately, YKZ insists that 27 is scum because of vote due to her vote due to vt claim (incorrect again while being corrected). here we consider: if YKZ were town, he would recognize his mistake and reevaluate the situation, and conclude that he was incorrect and therefore 27 is not mafia, and YKZ should unvote. However, YKZ doesn't and, therefore, YKZ has made a conscious choice to ignore corrections to his play, which is indicative of mafia. --------------------------------------- But you should consider the magnitude of the reasoning. You are correct in sayi ng that "another" implies the vt is relevant. However, the next two sentences and the vote form an independently logical sequence of events (and the vt claim alone did not procure a vote). This implies that "limited information" is the main reason for the vote. Care about it? somewhat. Enough to merit use of Kenpachi rule? doubt it. On June 17 2014 03:22 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 03:13 slOosh wrote:Hmm, not quite feeling the flaming spears of logic and justice yet. On June 16 2014 12:46 slOosh wrote:
I can see a somewhat reasonable case to be made that bunnies is not a stellar townie, but I don't see the case being made that she must be scum. Why isn't she "bad" town? I think my most recent post demonstrates that 27nb's attention is drawn towards statements about her, rather than incriminating things I say-- even a bad townie would naturally respond to me saying things like "I lied to decieve town because I thought I could get away with it", whereas scum regardless of badness would naturally respond to me saying kenpachi rule but NOT respond to additional evidence. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of mindset. A townie, even a new townie (I remember being one), when thyey have a scumread on someone and that person does something really scummy, they RESPOND to it. they add it to their case. It's the natural thought process of a town player REGARDLESS of skill. 27nb is not showing this natural thought process. Look at her responses to my posts. Is she responding to things I say that are scummy or inconsistent and pointing out their inconsistency? Or is she just shouting about my first post whenever she gets the chance, and not actually trying to convince people to lynch me based on new evidence that emerges? A townie who was really tunnelled on me would LOVE to point out new scummy things I say, because he's still trying to formulate and develop a case. 27nb is always talking about me, sure, but look at WHAT she's responding to. Not the stuff a townie would. This is always your argument. 'Not one specific town agenda and therefore mafia." There are multiple ways to play town (since you clearly claim to enjoy pretending to scumslip and most others do not). On June 17 2014 03:48 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:40 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:33 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:21 slOosh wrote:
Lazermonkey, what is the "scummy stuff" that bunnies is backpedaling from? The quick version: 1. Bunnies says that YKZ's VT claim is wierd and that she doesn't like it. 2. Bunnies says that ANOTHER thing the she doesn't like about YKZ is his "scum slip". Bunnes votes for YKZ. 3. YKZ votes Bunnies because Kenpachi rule. 4. Bunnies claims that the VT claim wasn't a reason she voted YKZ. 4. It wasn't the MAIN reason I voted YKZ. Okay, I'm not really interested in discussing this further with you. My goal isn't to make you confess in the thread. Its to convince the others. It is basically that it is impossible for us to know that what you are claiming is true or not. Based on what you wrote earlier I do find it more likely that you are scum than that you are town though. Understandable: also ##UnvoteI know this is not going to get votes off of me, and I'm fine with that. But YKZ's last few posts have been a bit towny, especially his read on Artansis. I'm starting to worry we are two town fighting. I also don't want my judgement clouded by my vote on YKZ and would like to hear more from other people. His posting has mostly been to say that town (a very specific town) would have done X but did Y and therefore mafia. Do you guys agree with this kind of arguement? Because I certainly do not. I urge you to reconsider you unvote on YKZ. On June 17 2014 07:05 goodkarma wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? Hmm? How does it make him scum? On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. Where's the inconsistency? Leaning may not be indicative of degree of conviction, but merely the direction of it. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. You are starting to make associations here and I don't think that's a good idea. Focus on them as individuals. I'm not really sure what else to say here except that there's a large variance of degrees. How I see it, you have release saying "I'm leaning YKZ scum" on first quote and saying "I am unequivocally convinced YKZ is scum" on second one. Release has since posted something in disagreement, but this is what I see when looking at that post. What's more, when would town ever say "...what needs to be said to incriminate..."? That's some super-scummy wording. Town looks to determine who's scum, not to make someone look like scum. Further, when thinking back on my own games the way Release has posted is almost exactly how I handled my first mafia game. I posted a huge case on an easy target then AFK'ed, only posting when I felt I had to. Looking at a few of his past games (when he was town), he had a much easier to follow flow with his posts. Every post in this game feels very calculated, and given how I personally liked to post in previous games as scum, it's easy for me to see how as an insecure newbie scum he would feel inclined to stack as much together as he could into a few very carefully planted posts. Incriminate: " To cause to appear guilty of a crime or fault; implicate" I believe that YKZ is guilty of a crime of fault, but others do not share that opinion with me. Therefore, it is my duty to convince others (you) of his guilt by causing him to appear to be guilty. I see nothing wrong with the use of the word. It is an apt choice. (would you have preferred implicate? same meaning) OP says to reduce spam / one-liners and I play the game fitfully (about an hour each time). On June 17 2014 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 17 2014 04:46 slOosh wrote:Yea I so I think Artanis is scum. On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Here is his first post, top of page 8. There are many unnatural things about this post. First is his complaining tone. We are only 5 pages in, and yet he calls it all "bullshit". It's totally out of place and unnatural. Then he moves away from it and blames Release. Two things here. One is that he does nothing to either comment on, or figure out said "bullshit". No reads or questions on either YKZ / 27nb. Nothing to try to figure either one out. Just a straight up dismissal of the whole thing, and moving on to someone else. Next is how he blames Release for it all. When I press him on this issue: On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. Nothing but fluff. He doesn't offer any meaningful reason why Release is scum. Look at the backpedaling. "oh yea I guess he added content. I could argue that wordiness isn't alignment null but I won't". He doesn't really care to convince me or others why he finds Release scum. He just wants to put his vote somewhere to look like he is contributing. He dodges the question the first time around so I ask him again: On June 17 2014 03:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 03:17 slOosh wrote:On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. How is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He's the perpetrator of the conversation continuing about that specific topic. Ridiculous. Release is trying to make sense of the debacle, and Artanis is overexaggerating, blaming him for "perpetrating" this "bullshit", while making no effort to either figure out the YKZ / bunnies thing himself, nor make clear how Release is scum for it. Just vague handwaving and avoiding the biggest discussion topic at the time. Artanis is unnatural, Artanis is apathetic, Artanis is scum. ##Vote Artanis[Xp] I think this post makes slOosh scum. DETAILS AT ELEVEN!!! Really? Because he has been the one asking clarifying questions, obviously with a purpose behind them. That fits townie agenda of forwarding the game in my book. Currently, I feel confident in SloOsh and Lazer as town for candid presentation of information and quetions. I feel that 27nb is town but to a lesser extent. I feel confident in YKZ as mafia. I have 100% corrected you and you did not respond to me at all. You had two main points in your first post. 1. Bunnies connection with YKZ's VT claim. 2. "limited information". I questioned you about the VT claim and even after going back to check yourself you still reported false information. Then i said you were still wrong and you still have not responding. You are not even following your own guidelines to not look like scum. Also this "limited information" this has a detail we all missed. I have never read anywhere in the rules where you have to read your role pm before starting play. Obviously u should (have to?) before day one ends. So we all had "equal info" unless we assume someone has read his role pm. It seems like a weird tactic but i still believe this "limited information" thing has very little value. So one of the two things your first post was based on was just wrong and you still did not correct it. The other thing has very little value in my opinion. I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing. Also i would really like to hear from oats and hear more for the world cup watcher. Also Chezinu's encryption is a hassle. On June 17 2014 12:23 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. you never responded to this post. Also you seem to not understand the fact that pr have more info than VT. Also you keep highlighting the same thing i did but have you read what i wrote right after that. On June 17 2014 12:54 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 12:44 Release wrote:
Not on day 1 and there is no point in talking about it on day 1.
I read it and it does not excuse illogical play. Regardless of 0/1/2 of 2 scum, you wish does not affect their roles. You soft retract your statement by saying it's a bad reason, but why say it in the first place if that is the case? ok start quoting because i have no clue what "it" is. It is a bad reason why? because we had such little information at the time. I was providing the most detail i could of why i thought 27nb was scum. It was a "long shot" but it still gave me another reason to. I do not understand two thirds of your above post. Why would I not say a bad reason. By bad reason i meant the game was probably going to end up with a lot better reasons for a scum. I am voting you know. I already showed multiple reasons why. ##Vote Release And admit that you are wrong about information. PR has more information than VT. This is a semi open game. PR know if his role exists. VT does not know if any or what PR exists. PR does not know if even one VT exists?(Do not know if this is 100% right because i am new) VT knows at least one VT exists. Both said VT and PR know there is three mafia. Knowing there is a pr is more info than knowing there is a VT. On June 17 2014 13:17 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 13:05 Release wrote:
If you read the original situation in which the information is said, the information relates to 27nb calling out 3 purported mafia and YKZ saying she has less information. It pertains to knowing who and who isn't mafia, and in this case, VT and PR are equally informed (since it is day 1). Knowing there is a pr does not in any way help call out 3 mafia. Therefore it is the same and we should stop talking about PRs. limited does not equal less. Also you do have a point with at the very start of the game PR and VT have the same chance of randomly guessing mafia. But even on day one it could matter. If u were a cop and somebody claimed cop... for example.
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He even says "I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing." self-standing statement of bandwagoning. Have some context anyways. + Show Spoiler +On June 17 2014 11:50 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 08:25 Release wrote:On June 17 2014 03:00 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 02:39 Release wrote:
@Lazer (and everyone else): His actions alone are bad. The repetitiveness of the badness and refusal to change his play after being corrected manifest his mafia agenda. "blazinghand is stubborn, therefore he is mafia" and "blazinghand has scumslipped, therefore he is mafia" are both sentences that are like always super doops wrong. I certainly can be stubborn as mafia, but I'm always stubborn. And the scumslip thing, come on guys. I legit don't scumslip as scum, and scumslip all the time as town, ask like anyone who has played more than 2 games with me. Also, I'm just generally a stubborn bastard no matter what I roll; again, ask anyone who has played with me. I will say this though: although I don't particularly like that Release is all over me like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit, I gotta give him credit: he IS all over me. He went through my filter and tried to find anything he could possibly construe as scummy and slapped it down in a big honkin filter dive case. Now, it's a big honkin WRONG filter drive case, but it's still a lot of effort. Maybe he was explicitly dodging Kenpachi Rule Extended, but he still gets mondo credit for putting in effort imo. Is release scummy for jumping in and just repeating what other people said? Eh, maybe. It's certainly a easy move for scum to make, but it's also worth noting that it's a move town would make. Suppose Release comes in and sees this horrible back and forth between me and 27nb, and for some weird reason becomes convinced I'm scum as a result. He wants to drop a vote on me, but also there's like no-one voting me, so he drops a hella big case. He does work, he does research. I give him credit for this, at least. Yes, it would have been good if he had an original idea, but if he didn't, he didn't. There's only so much to be said about me. Maybe you think he's scum because you think I'm scum and this is the most poorly executed bus ever, but really, 1) it would be a terrible way to do it, and 2) as SloOsh said (and he gets mucho townie points for this) you don't draw associative tells between unflipped players. Back onto the 27nb thing, Check it out. If you look at 27nb's filter, you see the initial push on me, and you see some interactions on me in places where I directly call out 27nb, but that's it as far as interactions with me. Check out some of the posts I made after the post that set off 27nb's "flag" so to speak about me being scummy: On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Also, your posts are giving me BH vibes.
Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl In this post i'm explicitly stating I'm not BH and trying to fake not being me. Even worse, I'm setting up the "bh claiming vt must be town" meme and I later "accidentally" reveal myself to be BH. If I were someone who thought YKZ was scum and saw this, I'd be all over it. I'd point out that it's awfully CONVENIENT to say that and then "accidentally" reveal yourself to be bh. I'd write a case, or at least a post, or heck, at least a SENTENCE, about this. Since I'm already suspicious of YKZ, since I supposedly have a scumread on YKZ, responding to this would be a NATURAL thing to do if I was town and voting YKZ. And yet, no response from 27nb (who was in thread at the time) next.. On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. Look at what I'm saying here. I'm literally admitting to lying to and deceiving the thread. I then say it's okay to lie and that the ends justify the means. Jesus christ on a stick with a cherry on top, how do you not flip out over this if you're town and think I'm scum? You'd be like "look, BH is obviously willing to lie. He was trying to pretend to be someone else while smurfing, which is a CLASSIC BH move when smurfing as scum. He even admits it, right here, in an attempt to defuse the situation. You can't let this slide guys, this is proof BH is scum" anyone who thinks I'm suspicious and has a vote on me, after reading that I admit to lying and trying to decieve the thread, would be ALL OVER this post. You want to know how 27nb responds, though? Here, I'll show you. On June 16 2014 11:39 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. You are soooooo wrong on me. It's super bad. And tbh, idc what you think of yourself, but you haven't impressed me ass the "best" in TL Mafia. I caught your mafia self d1. Get rekt! And as I said, Kenpachi rule is useless and stupid, and it will be highly disproved this game. I have no need to backtrack, and I had not backtracked anywhere. I'm going forward with this lynch and into the abyss you go! All 27nb sees is the part of the post directed at her. She argues about like backtracking or whatever, and says she's going forward with this lynch while literally ignoring possibly the most damning statement a player could make. If she was really town and really thought I was scum, at this point she'd say, not "blah blah kenpachi rule backtracking, your'e so bad and i'm so good", she'd say, "ah hah! Caught you in a lie, blazinghand, this is exactly what scum do!" You can see she's clearly not in a mindset of hunting scum, or hell, even actually PUSHING The wagon. She is putting on a big SHOW of pushing the wagon, but she's not actually doing it. She's not pointing out what I'm posting, or why I'm scum, just shouting about like one sentence in one post. She's not hunting scum. She's making noise. This is because she lacks the town mindset, the mindset that someone who really thought I was scum would have. Because 27nb is scum. vote her, for justice. @ first 4 paragraphs: The first sentence is again deliberate misrepresentation of the information that I have presented. Blazinghand is stubbornly wrong even when corrected and refuses to acknowledge corrections and is therefore mafia is the complete picture. This is the same misrepresentation of information he used earlier to cause chaos and it is used to cause chaos now. And the scumslip (which to my mind is the "more information") is NOT the reason that I think you are mafia. Please stop trying to twist information to suit your agenda. I do not merely repeat what has been said. I created a case on you with greater breadth and depth than 27nb did. And maybe you should pay more attention to what SloOsh is saying because he has asked useful questions when (mostly) you and 27nb have caused havoc in the thread. Now disregarding that, my case demonstrates that your logic in your play is incorrect. A proper defense is not to say "If I were scum, I would have..." because that is meaningless. Instead, you need to demonstrates that your logic is not incorrect. Otherwise, I think we should still construe YKZ's earlier posts as deliberate chaos. On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 01:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Boring, why so? And I know I'm town, so you think Release is more likely scum defending a town here? Or do you think it's scum defending a partner this early into the game? I'm thinking we're both town here. Though, i agree, he is basically just sayng everything I've already said. Boring because you both just kept repeating the same things but in different words and it wasn't going anywhere for me to get a read on either of you. I don't know your alignment and I'm not going to make an association between unflipped players. People did that in cell. You supported that as mafia. Why are you trying to create associations now? On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. This gives me a slight scumread on you. Wanting to be right is an easy reason to lean back on without actually saying anything. On June 17 2014 02:38 Release wrote:
Currently this is our only point of discussion, although your vote on me now introduces a discussion about me.
wordy words Boring. You could've introduced a discussion about anyone that had an opinion on the case for bullshit reasons. You also keep repeating yourself in the post as well. If you want me to actually read your posts thoroughly, be more to the point. I'm not interested in your description of what you provided and what you want. It won't help me get a more accurate read on you. On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. I "repeat" myself because YKZ makes similar chaotic plays with the same agenda. I rehashed some of the dispute because I wanted to provide a complete argument as to why YKZ is mafia and I want to be specific about my references. On June 17 2014 03:19 Lazermonkey wrote:@Release: I'm sorry, I missread your post a little bit. Your argument is actually quite different from Bunnies. I do, however, still fail to understand how YKZ actions make him scum. Your argument seems like WIFOM to me. It's like you assume that YKZ is already scum and then try to justify his actions from that point of you. Have you even considered YKZ's actions from a town PoV? Assuming that he is trying to create chaos by missinterpreting Bunnies is a big leap of faith. I also do think that there is merit to the Kenpachi rule in this case. Even if Bunnies said nummerous times that the VT claim wasn't the reason she voted for YKZ, she still pointed out two times: On June 16 2014 09:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? Awwwww, how rude. Don't you know you are supposed to talk to a person when they are talking to you? Also-she. And Why right off the bat claim vt? On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:45 slOosh wrote:
Bunnies (ninja? 27?), who is smurf and why should we lynch him? YKZ is smurf. And at first, I just put him on the list to get conversation going. I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. Looking at these two posts, you get the impression that Bunnies is indeed suspicious of YKZ because of the claim. Bunnies later on refutes this by saying that her suspicion of YKZ had nothing to do with the VT claim, HOWEVER: On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? This post has no substance. And why would you talk down to bunny about him having limited information? Do you have less limited information? Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded. He says I have limited information. How would he know that I am town? Well, if he was mafia he would know that I am town. So ##Vote: YKZ Note the bolded part. It doesn't say "look, this is a really scummy thing YKZ said", it says "look, this is another point I don't like". If she didn't care about him claiming VT, why say that it was another part she didn't like? If there is something that I find null in someones filter I don't say "Hey, this is wierd". I just don't say a thing about it. And the thing is that Bunnies doesn't say anything about this untill YKZ votes her with because of the Kenpachi rule. It is therefore impossible for us to know whether she is talking the truth or not about not caring about the VT thing. Her actions in the thread does, however, indicate that this was something she cared about. Which makes me belive that all this was just a massive backpaddle by Bunnies after she got caught doing scummy stuff. ##Vote: 27ninjabunnies Here is a very concise argument train of thought for you: YKZ claims vt 27 questions claim and in a SEPARATE post votes for "limited information" YKZ repeatedly claims that the vote is for the "vt" claim (incorrect/bad play, currently not particularly indicative of alignment) 27 states the vote is not for the claim, but for the "limited information" (lots of back and forth) but ultimately, YKZ insists that 27 is scum because of vote due to her vote due to vt claim (incorrect again while being corrected). here we consider: if YKZ were town, he would recognize his mistake and reevaluate the situation, and conclude that he was incorrect and therefore 27 is not mafia, and YKZ should unvote. However, YKZ doesn't and, therefore, YKZ has made a conscious choice to ignore corrections to his play, which is indicative of mafia. --------------------------------------- But you should consider the magnitude of the reasoning. You are correct in sayi ng that "another" implies the vt is relevant. However, the next two sentences and the vote form an independently logical sequence of events (and the vt claim alone did not procure a vote). This implies that "limited information" is the main reason for the vote. Care about it? somewhat. Enough to merit use of Kenpachi rule? doubt it. On June 17 2014 03:22 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 03:13 slOosh wrote:Hmm, not quite feeling the flaming spears of logic and justice yet. On June 16 2014 12:46 slOosh wrote:
I can see a somewhat reasonable case to be made that bunnies is not a stellar townie, but I don't see the case being made that she must be scum. Why isn't she "bad" town? I think my most recent post demonstrates that 27nb's attention is drawn towards statements about her, rather than incriminating things I say-- even a bad townie would naturally respond to me saying things like "I lied to decieve town because I thought I could get away with it", whereas scum regardless of badness would naturally respond to me saying kenpachi rule but NOT respond to additional evidence. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of mindset. A townie, even a new townie (I remember being one), when thyey have a scumread on someone and that person does something really scummy, they RESPOND to it. they add it to their case. It's the natural thought process of a town player REGARDLESS of skill. 27nb is not showing this natural thought process. Look at her responses to my posts. Is she responding to things I say that are scummy or inconsistent and pointing out their inconsistency? Or is she just shouting about my first post whenever she gets the chance, and not actually trying to convince people to lynch me based on new evidence that emerges? A townie who was really tunnelled on me would LOVE to point out new scummy things I say, because he's still trying to formulate and develop a case. 27nb is always talking about me, sure, but look at WHAT she's responding to. Not the stuff a townie would. This is always your argument. 'Not one specific town agenda and therefore mafia." There are multiple ways to play town (since you clearly claim to enjoy pretending to scumslip and most others do not). On June 17 2014 03:48 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:40 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:33 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:21 slOosh wrote:
Lazermonkey, what is the "scummy stuff" that bunnies is backpedaling from? The quick version: 1. Bunnies says that YKZ's VT claim is wierd and that she doesn't like it. 2. Bunnies says that ANOTHER thing the she doesn't like about YKZ is his "scum slip". Bunnes votes for YKZ. 3. YKZ votes Bunnies because Kenpachi rule. 4. Bunnies claims that the VT claim wasn't a reason she voted YKZ. 4. It wasn't the MAIN reason I voted YKZ. Okay, I'm not really interested in discussing this further with you. My goal isn't to make you confess in the thread. Its to convince the others. It is basically that it is impossible for us to know that what you are claiming is true or not. Based on what you wrote earlier I do find it more likely that you are scum than that you are town though. Understandable: also ##UnvoteI know this is not going to get votes off of me, and I'm fine with that. But YKZ's last few posts have been a bit towny, especially his read on Artansis. I'm starting to worry we are two town fighting. I also don't want my judgement clouded by my vote on YKZ and would like to hear more from other people. His posting has mostly been to say that town (a very specific town) would have done X but did Y and therefore mafia. Do you guys agree with this kind of arguement? Because I certainly do not. I urge you to reconsider you unvote on YKZ. On June 17 2014 07:05 goodkarma wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? Hmm? How does it make him scum? On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. Where's the inconsistency? Leaning may not be indicative of degree of conviction, but merely the direction of it. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. You are starting to make associations here and I don't think that's a good idea. Focus on them as individuals. I'm not really sure what else to say here except that there's a large variance of degrees. How I see it, you have release saying "I'm leaning YKZ scum" on first quote and saying "I am unequivocally convinced YKZ is scum" on second one. Release has since posted something in disagreement, but this is what I see when looking at that post. What's more, when would town ever say "...what needs to be said to incriminate..."? That's some super-scummy wording. Town looks to determine who's scum, not to make someone look like scum. Further, when thinking back on my own games the way Release has posted is almost exactly how I handled my first mafia game. I posted a huge case on an easy target then AFK'ed, only posting when I felt I had to. Looking at a few of his past games (when he was town), he had a much easier to follow flow with his posts. Every post in this game feels very calculated, and given how I personally liked to post in previous games as scum, it's easy for me to see how as an insecure newbie scum he would feel inclined to stack as much together as he could into a few very carefully planted posts. Incriminate: " To cause to appear guilty of a crime or fault; implicate" I believe that YKZ is guilty of a crime of fault, but others do not share that opinion with me. Therefore, it is my duty to convince others (you) of his guilt by causing him to appear to be guilty. I see nothing wrong with the use of the word. It is an apt choice. (would you have preferred implicate? same meaning) OP says to reduce spam / one-liners and I play the game fitfully (about an hour each time). On June 17 2014 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 17 2014 04:46 slOosh wrote:Yea I so I think Artanis is scum. On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Here is his first post, top of page 8. There are many unnatural things about this post. First is his complaining tone. We are only 5 pages in, and yet he calls it all "bullshit". It's totally out of place and unnatural. Then he moves away from it and blames Release. Two things here. One is that he does nothing to either comment on, or figure out said "bullshit". No reads or questions on either YKZ / 27nb. Nothing to try to figure either one out. Just a straight up dismissal of the whole thing, and moving on to someone else. Next is how he blames Release for it all. When I press him on this issue: On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. Nothing but fluff. He doesn't offer any meaningful reason why Release is scum. Look at the backpedaling. "oh yea I guess he added content. I could argue that wordiness isn't alignment null but I won't". He doesn't really care to convince me or others why he finds Release scum. He just wants to put his vote somewhere to look like he is contributing. He dodges the question the first time around so I ask him again: On June 17 2014 03:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 03:17 slOosh wrote:On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. How is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He's the perpetrator of the conversation continuing about that specific topic. Ridiculous. Release is trying to make sense of the debacle, and Artanis is overexaggerating, blaming him for "perpetrating" this "bullshit", while making no effort to either figure out the YKZ / bunnies thing himself, nor make clear how Release is scum for it. Just vague handwaving and avoiding the biggest discussion topic at the time. Artanis is unnatural, Artanis is apathetic, Artanis is scum. ##Vote Artanis[Xp] I think this post makes slOosh scum. DETAILS AT ELEVEN!!! Really? Because he has been the one asking clarifying questions, obviously with a purpose behind them. That fits townie agenda of forwarding the game in my book. Currently, I feel confident in SloOsh and Lazer as town for candid presentation of information and quetions. I feel that 27nb is town but to a lesser extent. I feel confident in YKZ as mafia. I have 100% corrected you and you did not respond to me at all. You had two main points in your first post. 1. Bunnies connection with YKZ's VT claim. 2. "limited information". I questioned you about the VT claim and even after going back to check yourself you still reported false information. Then i said you were still wrong and you still have not responding. You are not even following your own guidelines to not look like scum. Also this "limited information" this has a detail we all missed. I have never read anywhere in the rules where you have to read your role pm before starting play. Obviously u should (have to?) before day one ends. So we all had "equal info" unless we assume someone has read his role pm. It seems like a weird tactic but i still believe this "limited information" thing has very little value. So one of the two things your first post was based on was just wrong and you still did not correct it. The other thing has very little value in my opinion. I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing. Also i would really like to hear from oats and hear more for the world cup watcher. Also Chezinu's encryption is a hassle.
And if that weren't enough, he hops straight onto the Mderg train.
Quotes the same post 3 times + Show Spoiler +On June 17 2014 16:07 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote:I almost forgot about this due to the world cup The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong, bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:16 slOosh wrote:
Alright, let's cut it out with the "Kenpachi Rule" and associated nomenclature. It isn't immediately clear to everyone and is muddling up the discussion.
Let's get this straight.
Bunnies, you think YKZ is scum because of the phrase "limited information"? His post paraphrased as "I'm not listening to you because you are town"?
YKZ, you think bunnies is scum for her initial call out of your post "I'm vt"?
Please try to be a bit more clear with your posts please. Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. It also feels like townreading Artanis is some kind of "You´re scumreading me, so I´ll townread you". I think Snickers has been posting strangely. As if he wanted to play the newbie card without stating that he´s new. His general thought process doesn´t show a scum mindset, though. I didn´t really like where he talked about associations between bunnies and VKZ. IMO pre-flip associations are bad most of the time. Release had a not so perfect entrance to this thread. At first glance his case on YKZ seemed good but it basically comes down to the few points bunnies has made on YKZ and that he stuck to the Kenpachi rule for so long. That´s not very much considering the length of his posts. What kinda speaks in his favor is how suddenly several people jumped on him after Artanis made his case on him. Still kinda neutral on him, maybe a bit scummy. I´m having a townread on sloosh right now. Mainly because his posting feels different from Detention where we were scum together. He´s asking questions and seems to be trying to get behind the reasons from the others. I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him. Not much on the others, yet. I´ll hopefully post more tomorrow. ##vote 27ninjabunnies gk what is your read on mderg? I think its weird how he has only posted one thing. He sorta offers an excuse for that. The thing i find most weird is "I'll hopefully post more tomorrow". ..... I do not think somebody that is town would say hopefully i will post more after posting one post. On June 18 2014 02:07 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote:I almost forgot about this due to the world cup The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong, bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:16 slOosh wrote:
Alright, let's cut it out with the "Kenpachi Rule" and associated nomenclature. It isn't immediately clear to everyone and is muddling up the discussion.
Let's get this straight.
Bunnies, you think YKZ is scum because of the phrase "limited information"? His post paraphrased as "I'm not listening to you because you are town"?
YKZ, you think bunnies is scum for her initial call out of your post "I'm vt"?
Please try to be a bit more clear with your posts please. Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. It also feels like townreading Artanis is some kind of "You´re scumreading me, so I´ll townread you". I think Snickers has been posting strangely. As if he wanted to play the newbie card without stating that he´s new. His general thought process doesn´t show a scum mindset, though. I didn´t really like where he talked about associations between bunnies and VKZ. IMO pre-flip associations are bad most of the time. Release had a not so perfect entrance to this thread. At first glance his case on YKZ seemed good but it basically comes down to the few points bunnies has made on YKZ and that he stuck to the Kenpachi rule for so long. That´s not very much considering the length of his posts. What kinda speaks in his favor is how suddenly several people jumped on him after Artanis made his case on him. Still kinda neutral on him, maybe a bit scummy.I´m having a townread on sloosh right now. Mainly because his posting feels different from Detention where we were scum together. He´s asking questions and seems to be trying to get behind the reasons from the others. I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him. Not much on the others, yet. I´ll hopefully post more tomorrow.##vote 27ninjabunnies Hey mderg can you explain the reasoning of the bold text. I think you made a terrible excuse for not posting more on day one. You are back and forth on release. Also you say you hopefully will post more tomorrow. You also throw in a vote first post. Also I am pretty sure you were hoping no one would comment and you could just lurk until the lynch. Your vote would of been your saving grace for not having to speak today. On June 18 2014 02:29 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote:I almost forgot about this due to the world cup The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong, bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:16 slOosh wrote:
Alright, let's cut it out with the "Kenpachi Rule" and associated nomenclature. It isn't immediately clear to everyone and is muddling up the discussion.
Let's get this straight.
Bunnies, you think YKZ is scum because of the phrase "limited information"? His post paraphrased as "I'm not listening to you because you are town"?
YKZ, you think bunnies is scum for her initial call out of your post "I'm vt"?
Please try to be a bit more clear with your posts please. Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: " As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies."
And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. It also feels like townreading Artanis is some kind of "You´re scumreading me, so I´ll townread you". I think Snickers has been posting strangely. As if he wanted to play the newbie card without stating that he´s new. His general thought process doesn´t show a scum mindset, though. I didn´t really like where he talked about associations between bunnies and VKZ. IMO pre-flip associations are bad most of the time. Release had a not so perfect entrance to this thread. At first glance his case on YKZ seemed good but it basically comes down to the few points bunnies has made on YKZ and that he stuck to the Kenpachi rule for so long. That´s not very much considering the length of his posts. What kinda speaks in his favor is how suddenly several people jumped on him after Artanis made his case on him. Still kinda neutral on him, maybe a bit scummy. I´m having a townread on sloosh right now. Mainly because his posting feels different from Detention where we were scum together. He´s asking questions and seems to be trying to get behind the reasons from the others. I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him. Not much on the others, yet. I´ll hopefully post more tomorrow.##vote 27ninjabunnies Yea it seems really strange that you are only leaning towards somebody and you vote for them. Saying that you are not 100% sure you will return to the game to reevaluate the situation. It would be terrible for a town to vote for someone with only about half the information we have. Then say he may not change it until the lynch. So you were leaning towards bunnies but felt she was scum enough that if you did not make it to a computer she could be lynched because of this vote. ##Unvote
##Vote mdergI still think Release is scum but I am more confident that mderg is at this time. Also we have to consolidate our posts and i think it would be easier for people to see this slip. Also more people on mderg atm than release.
This is a little bit of bluehunting covered by a boatload of bandwagoning. His agenda feels like one in which he wants to blend into the town instead of making his own reads and arguments. At first, I pardoned him because he wasn't as stubborn as YKZ but this level of bandwagoning suggests to me that he is more likely scum than town.
and this is the actually summary of my case.
This process was literally going through Snickers's filter and assigning posts to my statement, something that can easily be replaced by just reading his fitler and recognizing the sameness that it and my summary shares.
Why stop there:
fingerpointing and poor reasoning day 2
+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2014 04:51 Snickers wrote:
You are an idiot or scum if you can't "see" the scum in mderg's first post. First off saying there is a chance you are only going to contribute one post to day one. This shows his terrible interest in this game. Then he tries to say he votes to prevent mod kill. Id rather him be modkilled than him help lynch someone because he felt a slight scum. You guys must have played so many games of mafia you cannot think logically. You have these rules that you hold so highly. Even if these rules were true you guys cannot even use them right. So assuming they are true they still are no use. And somebody mentioned something about release. If you can't see the scum in his post there is a problem or you are scum.
I cannot believe no one mentioned this aspect of this game. 27nb had the same principles in her posts from the start. Confused, emotional, silly. So has ykz. Cocky , deceiving, focused. We know 27nb was town. If ykz is mafia he is very good at it. Even after the proof that he was wrong or was lying. He perfectly continues his principals after the lynch. Release on the other hand had been inconsistent with his principals. He seems aggressive than passive.
Reactionary than static. I think it should be looked into. I won't be able to post or read until six hours from now. I will look at be (whoever name keeps getting mentioned).
Also koshi seems to be obsessed with me. I am thinking him as third mafia. On June 19 2014 13:16 Snickers wrote:
And above this post is release's beautiful post where he now goes from continuing ykz and 27nb's argument which led to people making so much scum out of nothing to this one to now bringing ykz lynch about. Now this whole day cycle we are going to be led into talking about ykz the whole time when we should not just focus on one person.
Also he defends mderg with this post and also talks about me being scum. How predictable.
I should have called this like i called what happened to 27nb. What happened to 27nb was a long process tho this was an instant. Also me posting a prediction of this would have altered this outcome.
And not release continuing his cycle of posts. One very serious one talking about scum then all of his shorts ones to me. Now back to these serious ones. With a vote attached as his first day post.
Release says to look through YKZ's filter. How about you write a case with the new information we have release. The only reason why release is saying vote ykz instead of me is because it will be a lot more easier to sway all of you into voting ykz. Also it will be easier to drag on the ykz stuff that costed us day one. I do not see how a town release would not be voting me.
And how the hell did no one even vote for me a single time the first day. It is because scum all agreed to not vote me or make a case for me. I do not think there even is one since no one has made one. There was no reason to throw me in day one since they had it won with just this ykz and 27nb rigmarole.
We should really improve are chances of winning by not focusing on one or two people and start looking at many. On June 19 2014 15:09 Snickers wrote:
Yes only focus on two people when three could be mafia. Yes lets focus on people since that worked out so well for you day one.
Also that was very predictable your comment in spoilers. Also you are doing the same back and fourth we had day one.
The last one is actually in response to my case on him. Complete dismissal which he has insisted on dismissing leading me to have to make this post.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2014 15:18 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote.@2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed And here is where Release's mistake is so obvious. He did not even know that 27nb posted twice about vt before voting. But he made a huge case on YKZ. and defended 27nb. How would a town not know such an important fact when you can go back and reread. Also when we were only a few posts into the game. And then everything lines up perfectly with him being scum. I also find it odd that he did not consolidate his Vote. Everyone else did.
On June 21 2014 05:28 Snickers wrote:
Lets see how long it takes Release to say I am riding the wagon. He said i did it for 27nb and mderg . Too bad both times i contributed new information that was accurate. Too bad town does not see how his release information is inaccurate.
No your information was too narrow and therefore not useful.
So snickers, now that you without a shadow of a doubt know that I have a case on you, respond to it by refuting it.
|
YKZ, you say that mderg was unfocused which I believe is accurate. However, you say "If you didn't see his vote there at the bottom of the post, and just read the post itself, you would have NO IDEA that he was voting 27nb." For whom do you think he should have voted considering what he says in his posts?
|
I'm just rereading the day 1 segment from Mderg's vote and the timing to me is the weirdest thing: I'm not talking about lurk and jump when called out, but his vote is so early and it doesn't change. He doesn't propound anything for town to discuss outside 27nb but by the time he returns to the thread, it has already pretty much become 27nb or mderg lynch. There are things that he could have done to heighten his towniness, but at this point, I'm reading him scummy but understandable (as I have been all game), but more scummy than before. I am starting to believe that I have given him too much credit for his motivation and not enough for the blatant meaning of his posts. I still think YKZ and snickers are better lynches today.
Next point. YKZ is doing exactly what "things that he could have done to heighten his towniness" by actually discussing reads, asking questions, and responding others opinions. Even if he is mafia, and I still think he is, this type of discussion move the town forwards which is unequivocally good for town. Because of this, I think Snickers takes the spot for top lynch candidate for today since he actually followed through with completely afking (completely unacceptable at this stage; even bullshit misleading town posts give information to town, but this screams that he's hiding), giving him yet another excuse for ignoring/dismissing my case on him.
##unvote
##Vote snickers
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On June 21 2014 08:08 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Release, what are your thoughts on mderg's vote just now? You had similar reservations to him being scummy as I did.
I think the most important rule in mafia is to vote for mafia. His filter does not indicate an inclination for voting Snickers, which is why I think its awful, but not as awful as completely afking.
His play gave us information. This information can be very easily used against him. To be honest, complete afk so blatantly is also information too.
I think Mderg just shoved his way past YKZ on my scumlist, and now, I'm fine lynching Mderg or Snickers, but will still be voting snickers pending further information.
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Ok for some reason, YKZ is still being lynched today which is not correct.
For that:
##Unvote
##Vote Mderg
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On June 21 2014 08:33 mderg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:21 Release wrote:On June 21 2014 08:08 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Release, what are your thoughts on mderg's vote just now? You had similar reservations to him being scummy as I did. I think the most important rule in mafia is to vote for mafia. His filter does not indicate an inclination for voting Snickers, which is why I think its awful, but not as awful as completely afking. His play gave us information. This information can be very easily used against him. To be honest, complete afk so blatantly is also information too. I think Mderg just shoved his way past YKZ on my scumlist, and now, I'm fine lynching Mderg or Snickers, but will still be voting snickers pending further information. + Show Spoiler +On June 18 2014 06:42 mderg wrote:
My vote stays on bunnies today. Nothing today that changed my mind and I need some sleep now.
We should definitely look into VE and Snickers, though. On June 19 2014 04:44 mderg wrote:I´m not even remotely interested in talking about the life, the universe and everything with you. I don´t have any other clear scumreads but Snickers seems suspicious with how he asked these "newbie questions" but still knows his shit. he also focused on very small pieces of information and bad wording. Spoilered examples. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:44 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:35 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum. I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. I'm saying by the end of the game because I'm not getting lynched today! Straight up! And if I do, I'm going down swinging. And if that's the case, I will prove it's not 100% right as you say. And how am I thinking ina strange way? I've blatantly and straight forwardly laid out my case for you. I think you are thinking in a strange way because of my post you are responding to. I said that YKZ could be lynched and showed as scum. That would also prove the kenpachi rule as not 100% right. You responded to that and still did not understand that you could not be lynched and the rule could be shown as not 100% right at day one, not the end of the game. Also it think it is weird how confident you were with saying "Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME" but then you say by the end of the day. If i was being confident about proving someone wrong. I would have said, I could prove you wrong, even by day one with these one of these two lynches showing these respective outcomes, but will for sure prove you wrong by the end of the game. On June 16 2014 15:02 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule? I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so... I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm Also thought it should be pointed out that YKZ says the kenpachi rule "almost always" works and then says it "always works" without showing that his knowledge of the ruled changed between the posts.When we make posts we should try to stop assuming things. Thanks everybody for helping me with my posting and questions. On June 17 2014 16:07 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 09:11 mderg wrote:I almost forgot about this due to the world cup The whole thing with YKZ and bunnies is really strange. It feels like they´re both wrong, bunnies more so thab YKZ, though. I don´t think bunnies case was well substantiated at all, scumslips just almost never happen in forum mafia. I also don´t think the Kenpachi rule is as foolproof as YKZ said. It has some solid reasoning behind it but claiming that it always works seems stupid. They´ve kinda been repeating themselves quite often, so there´s not that much to get from this. I think YKZ is town because of the follow up on bunnies On June 16 2014 12:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:16 slOosh wrote:
Alright, let's cut it out with the "Kenpachi Rule" and associated nomenclature. It isn't immediately clear to everyone and is muddling up the discussion.
Let's get this straight.
Bunnies, you think YKZ is scum because of the phrase "limited information"? His post paraphrased as "I'm not listening to you because you are town"?
YKZ, you think bunnies is scum for her initial call out of your post "I'm vt"?
Please try to be a bit more clear with your posts please. Look at all the scummy stuff I've posted since my original post. Any real townie would be all over me for things like "I'm allowed to lie" and my blanatant lying etc but all YKZ is on is my OG post because he is scum. Any real townie would be all up on dis, think about it I don´t think scum would so blatantly say that he acted scummy and someone should have pointed it out. This feels like a trap made by town. He´s also claimed vt early on which I find weird but unlikely to be scum play. So I think out of bunnies and YKZ only bunnies can really be scum. It certainly is possible. Especially the heavy focus on YKZ´s "scumslip" seems suspicious. Not calling out YKZ´s scummy posts is not really alignment indicative. Not immediately noticing things that might look scummy to some can happen as both alignments. I also dislike how she agrees with Artanis that Release is scummy but doesn´t think he´s scum because she wants to be right about YKZ and her association read. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. It also feels like townreading Artanis is some kind of "You´re scumreading me, so I´ll townread you". I think Snickers has been posting strangely. As if he wanted to play the newbie card without stating that he´s new. His general thought process doesn´t show a scum mindset, though. I didn´t really like where he talked about associations between bunnies and VKZ. IMO pre-flip associations are bad most of the time. Release had a not so perfect entrance to this thread. At first glance his case on YKZ seemed good but it basically comes down to the few points bunnies has made on YKZ and that he stuck to the Kenpachi rule for so long. That´s not very much considering the length of his posts. What kinda speaks in his favor is how suddenly several people jumped on him after Artanis made his case on him. Still kinda neutral on him, maybe a bit scummy. I´m having a townread on sloosh right now. Mainly because his posting feels different from Detention where we were scum together. He´s asking questions and seems to be trying to get behind the reasons from the others. I think Artanis´case on Release made sense but slooshs case on him also made sense even though it´s not that strong. The fact that he almost completely ignored the back and forth between YKZ and bunnies is slightly suspicious. But it´s true that the back and forth was repetitive and I don´t think there was anything that´s really scummy in it. I agree with his reason for scumreading bunnies, it´s something I´m also sumreading her for. Slight townread on him. Not much on the others, yet. I´ll hopefully post more tomorrow. ##vote 27ninjabunnies gk what is your read on mderg? I think its weird how he has only posted one thing. He sorta offers an excuse for that. The thing i find most weird is "I'll hopefully post more tomorrow". ..... I do not think somebody that is town would say hopefully i will post more after posting one post. Other than that I only have null and townreads. On June 20 2014 18:30 mderg wrote:I´m not sure what to think of bh. I did read him as town but over the last days I didn´t get the impression that he was really trying to help town here which would normally lead me to believe he´s scum. But he has put himself so much into the spotlight in an obviously negative way that I find it hard to believe he could be scum. I guess I have to wait for his awesome case. Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 11:27 Snickers wrote:
##Vote mderg
For admitting he said something that he did not, plus his scum play from day one.
Got questions for me? Look at my filter.
Good Luck see you after lynch.
Can you quote that, so I know what you mean? Show nested quote +On June 20 2014 07:00 Snickers wrote:
When I look at the thread 4 to 5 hours from now and I continue seeing dumbness. I'm going to make one more post to vote someone then afk till lynch. I already contributed enough , especially compared to some players. Do I understand it correctly that you´re leaving for the rest of day 2 because you think that you contributed enough already? What kind of shit reasoning is that? I think you could come to the conclusion that I find Snickers to be suspicious from my filter.
Suspicious yes. Enough to warrant a switch from VE? No.
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Short on time again. Will get back to Snickers.
On June 21 2014 12:51 VisceraEyes wrote:
Snickers is now probably town. But if he posts anymore I might reverse that read.
Care to elaborate?
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 21 2014 11:47 Snickers wrote:--snip--
Numbers = his bold statement (ie. 1 2 3 4)
1. Yes i was leaning 27nb but that was before a lot of posted and the people that did posted did not post much. So it was the very start of the game. I think I did not even vote for her. The person i voted for flipped scum today. Also i was saying how terrible it was to vote27nb after i had information from all players.
I support the kenpachi rule. It has merit(it has some value) I do not see where release thinks i support further discussion of it. He did not post the post but someone said they were sick of it but i said i still think it should be discussed but i understand how it could be repetitive. I think that release thinks i encouraged further discussion of it by saying how 27nb dismissed it(which she did, koshi is saying this is true but release is denying it i guess make your own decision) And i did say that only two people said what the kenpachi rule was. YKZ explained it in a lot of detail while 27nb did not have a good explanation of it. I wanted someone else to say what it was or if YKZ was talking nonsense. Nobody did so I am still assuming that is was the kenpachi rule is. Second time I am saying this but no one was saying the kenpachi rule was defined wrong they were saying it was being used wrong.
Release also posted to where i said the kenpachi rule was useless. That was my first post to a mafia game ever. I had very little knowledge of the game.(For example i knew the term lylo existed and it was a phase as the end of the game but I did not know it meant lynch or lose.) Then i gathered new info that no was refuting so i did see the merit in it. Notice how i comment on YKZ saying the kenpachi rule also works then said it almost always works. His knowledge of it did not change but he said different things. I said different things but my knowledge of it did change.
I do not understand where I represented information wrong. Also 27nb could say if YKZ was lynched it would be proven by the end of the day. Also release wants to throw in the scientific method bs. It is simply stated as the kenpachi rule has merit but is not 100% correct.
2. I still stand that i did not make an association with YKZ because of the information I posted after that. I guess you all can decide. I was saying another reason i would want to vote 27nb. That would of been a longshot.
3. I thought was release was scum and I made my own case on his. I did not follow Art's case on him. I thought release did have a good point until he did not even know that 27nb said vt twice before he vote post. I think sloosh but somebody said something like good job now somebody is actually reading the thread. I still believe releases whole post was just the same information we have and then a misleading or terrible new point in his case about vt. So either scum or terrible town. I also do not see how I flip flopped (Does this mean I went from one player to another?) I was slightly leaning 27nb, i never even voted for her. I was full blown for you day one. More than mderg. But i played like a team player and consolidated my post like somebody said that was normal so scum votes could not factor that much.
Now these numbers are going to be related to the third bold comments, second spoiler.
I never asked 27nb to die. I was saying how she could of said if she died she would show town and the kenpachi rule would be disproved or if YKZ was lynched and shown scum first day. Things like this is where i think release is either a terrible town or scum. He misreads the simplest of things.
1. Where i was proving to release that he missed that 27nb mentions vt twice before vote post.
2. and 3. Me and Release had a different definition so i think we were both right about that.
4. I agree that talking about blue roles is bad.(My information on the subject changed) I realized that it
is the same thing we do to find scum. I still never talked about who had which blue role. I was
talking about talking about blue roles. I still think this does not have a primary nature to help scum.
I guess you could say it could lead someone else to mention a role with a person.
5. This does not matter much now. Still confused about this.
So i thought release had a very good post because of his thread changing point of the vt thing but then I realize that and i still think that it was wrong because 27nb. says also or another when referring to vt claim. It looks even worst when release did not know a simple fact about how many times 27nb mentioned vt when the thread was small and it was his first post and he could reread. For some reason release thinks i was following art's case but i was not. I think maybe his case triggered my case. Also the two people that mentioned the timing. One of them was me.
4.Already mentioned blue talk. So far my "harping" w/e the hell that means. It sounds so negative. My "harping" or focusing on slight details was my main read on mderg the scum.(letters correspond with only some of the major harps that helped the game)
A. Mderg's comment about hopefully helping tomorrow. I think i was the first person to catch this.
B. Mderg's comment on how he said something that he did not actually say.
Both of these "harps" were accurately reading scum but release defended Mderg both time. I do not know this was because release thought i was misleading, like a scum should or If he wanted to defend Mderg for w/e reason (scum team or did not think he was scum)
I will Harp till the day I die. Cause so far it has led to my 100% lynch record. (no I did not vote for mderg the day he got lynched but I did the first day and I would have continued the second day If I knew(or saw) that people decided to vote him.
3rd spoiler: "Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole." @ " I do not see where release thinks i support further discussion of it"
@2 Fantastic as in literally fantasy. Pointless.
@3 That is misrep. of info. 27nb did made not even close to the depth or breadth of indictment that I made.
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@2/3/4 don't see how that was supposed to help us. When 27nb initially said not to speculate whether blue or not, that should have been the last meniton of blue discussion Day 1.
It's the bandwagon nature of flipping only after someone else has made accusations.
@4 I disagree. In the end, Mderg's voting timing/pattern is what ultimately got him lynched. Those were not particularly indicative. Just because he flipped mafia does not make every single line of his posts indicative of mafia. + Show Spoiler +For example, yesterday, YKZ was helpful, but I still expect him to flip mafia
Also, harp:
"To talk or write about to an excessive and tedious degree; dwell on." It's just another word.
On June 21 2014 17:42 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Snickers stop spending so much goddamn time defending yourself, you're confirmed town.
5 bonus points to the person who knows why.
Care to elaborate?
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Well I'm going to bed. Maybe I'll see it when I'm less tired tomorrow.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 21 2014 21:43 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 21:14 Koshi wrote:
Artanis probably meant the mderg vote. If it brought Snickers in the lead it looks pretty good for Snickers. Snickers was on mderg his ass so mderg might have gotten greedy. Mderg didnt move to bh when he could, so why move to a teammate?
I am back condemned to phone posting for today.
My fav lynch for tomorrkw is VE or lazermonkey. I agree that the vote put it him the spotlight but it was so obviously extremely strange. I dont see why town would do it. Ding ding ding, we have a winner. I think your lynch targets are bad though. Also, the town reasoning should be obvious; he thought YKZ was more scummy than mderg, so he tried to get YKZ lynched.
What Koshi said is slightly confusing so one of you please explain like I'm 5. The way that Koshi explains it, it sounds like BH is Mderg's mafia teammate?
+ Show Spoiler +On June 21 2014 21:53 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 19:02 slOosh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So I'm typing this up around 4:30am ... b/c stupid dota tilting ... so excuse any typos or whatever I'm gonna be slightly lenient on the editing. My day 1 interpretation was wrong. Mderg is scum, so D1 looks different. D1 Lynch: 27ninjabunnies the Vanilla Townie has died to lynch!Final Vote Count - Day 1: 27ninjabunnies (7): YouKnowZhou, Artanis[Xp], mderg, Chezinu, Koshi, slOosh, goodkarmaYouKnowZhou (1): Release mderg (4): Snickers, VisceraEyes, 27ninjabunnies, Lazermonkey
27ninjabunnies is lynched with 7 votes! Ok nvm I don't know how to do vote analysis. Crap. UHhh Right things that stick out D1: Snickers calls out mderg first I think, before anyone else. VE follows up. Artanis doesn't like it. Snicker joins, Lazer odesn't like so he backs off, I don't like so I back off. On June 18 2014 04:35 Chezinu wrote:
##UnVote
##Vote: mderg
Art it is time to have some fun! Let's do this!!! This post makes lots of sense here in hindsight. I move to VE, Lazer joins me. YKZ comes in and asks a summary of mderg case couple times. On June 18 2014 05:33 Kurumi wrote:Vote Count - Day 1: mderg (3): VisceraEyes, Lazermonkey, Chezinu, Snickers 27ninjabunnies (2): YouKnowZhou, Lazermonkey, mderg VisceraEyes (2): Lazermonkey, slOosh YouKnowZhou (1): 27ninjabunnies, Release, goodkarmaKoshi (1): Artanis[Xp] Release (0): Artanis[Xp], SnickersArtanis[Xp] (0): slOoshCurrently Not Voting (3): goodkarma, Koshi, 27ninjabunnies,
Currently mderg is set to be lynched with 3 votes! Day will end in
Ok, scum probably starting to feel the heat here? On June 18 2014 05:38 mderg wrote:
Also, what the hell is it with Chezinu? He doesn´t even try to make sense. Chezinu rule? Chezinu rule. Artanis not liking these votes, goes on Koshi. I'm still gungho on VE. Stuff stuff stuff. Ultimately on page 18 Artanis town reads mderg and YKZ makes a bigger push on bunnies. I townread mderg here too. Maybe I'll pick up on this after getting proper sleep. I did not call him out first (two people did before me) but I think I was the first person to do a passable analysis on him rather than just say "the above post if filled with scum. therefore my vote is ......" Replying to release here. Yea i still do not have a definition of ban wagon. I think one of the criteria is to not show new scummy points in a player and just vote for them with the ones already out. Never voted for 27nb and voted for mderg after giving new information. Also I was the first person to vote mderg and stay with it all day one. I was in class but i had a 15 minute break to at least read a few posts and change my vote. Yesterday i had work. I was still wanting to vote mderg but i saw no support after day one lynch. So i consolidated my post just like day one. I think maybe you think i am ban wagoning because i consolidate early, but I have been busy around vote times. Guess what, Sunday i have work so it will be like yesterday. Wednesday I have class if this game is still going by then. Also this needs to be said. VE was not telling me not to vote mderg because of how many mislynches he did from "bad town play". That was LazerMonkey. I saw people were thinking he may be scummy and he also understand this.
The point is quickly becoming moot (and we are displeasing the Artanis) so I will leave with this: I still find you suspicious. Afk day 2 is the key recent point. However, considering only 2 mafia left, I think that YKZ and Lazer(pending Artanis/Koshi confirmed town explanation), are more suspicious at this moment.
I agree with what SloOsh says about Lazer, except that I think Lazer played a very good Day 1, and a somewhat decent Day 2 that went to trash at the end.
YKZ makes another promise so I'll think I'll wait to form a more firm opinion for now.
For my reads, not too much has changed except Lazer has climbed into mafia candidate territory, VE is also slowly climbing back into mafia candidate territory, and Snickers has climbed out a little bit. YKZ remains. A lot of this still pending explanations.
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On June 21 2014 18:56 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
No Release, I'm desperate to give someone bonus points. Now stop focussing on Snickers, he's not scum. Your attention is better suited for just about anyone that isn't me/snickers/lazer.
On June 21 2014 21:43 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 21:14 Koshi wrote:
Artanis probably meant the mderg vote. If it brought Snickers in the lead it looks pretty good for Snickers. Snickers was on mderg his ass so mderg might have gotten greedy. Mderg didnt move to bh when he could, so why move to a teammate?
I am back condemned to phone posting for today.
My fav lynch for tomorrkw is VE or lazermonkey. I agree that the vote put it him the spotlight but it was so obviously extremely strange. I dont see why town would do it. Ding ding ding, we have a winner. I think your lynch targets are bad though. Also, the town reasoning should be obvious; he thought YKZ was more scummy than mderg, so he tried to get YKZ lynched.
Please explain like I'm 5 why Snickers (and you and lazer) were supposed to be confirmed town. Also, why lazer is no longer in such a position.
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On June 22 2014 10:40 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 08:24 Release wrote:
Ok for some reason, YKZ is still being lynched today which is not correct.
For that:
##Unvote
##Vote Mderg If we end up lynching YKZ and he is shown mafia, lets not forget this gem. Anyway if you want to treat yourself to some good laughs on this victorious day please read release's filter. If he is shown town when this game is over, I should make a thread just showing how many times he was objectively wrong but still somehow thinks he is right. On a more serious note, i do not think it would be possible to be town and lie that much. And yea VE you should really explain why those people are not being voted today, not just type it.
I've said many times: I still believed that YKZ was mafia, but because of the fact that he was engaged in discussion, it is more valuable to keep him alive than other suspects, given that other suspects seemed at least as scummy, which Mderg did.
On June 22 2014 10:43 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 10:19 Release wrote:On June 21 2014 18:56 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
No Release, I'm desperate to give someone bonus points. Now stop focussing on Snickers, he's not scum. Your attention is better suited for just about anyone that isn't me/snickers/lazer. On June 21 2014 21:43 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 21 2014 21:14 Koshi wrote:
Artanis probably meant the mderg vote. If it brought Snickers in the lead it looks pretty good for Snickers. Snickers was on mderg his ass so mderg might have gotten greedy. Mderg didnt move to bh when he could, so why move to a teammate?
I am back condemned to phone posting for today.
My fav lynch for tomorrkw is VE or lazermonkey. I agree that the vote put it him the spotlight but it was so obviously extremely strange. I dont see why town would do it. Ding ding ding, we have a winner. I think your lynch targets are bad though. Also, the town reasoning should be obvious; he thought YKZ was more scummy than mderg, so he tried to get YKZ lynched. Please explain like I'm 5 why Snickers (and you and lazer) were supposed to be confirmed town. Also, why lazer is no longer in such a position. So Release, you believe you get special treatment. Why would that be so. Please enlighten me Mr. Objective. Or why should we accept you as town. Also who's filter do you want me to read.
I wasn't sold on the fact that a down-to-the-last desperation wagon by Mderg necessarily implies that Artanis/Lazer/Snickers is necessarily town. Artanis spoke as though it were an unequivocal fact, which it wasn't.
For today, I would ask you to look at YKZ, Lazer, and VE (though artanis says otherwise).
And to those of you suspicious of SloOsh, I'll say as I have said all game, I doubt that he is mafia. So read his filter too to reconsider if this applies to you.
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On June 23 2014 06:53 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 06:42 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Oh come on I was willing to lynch whoever as long as out wasn't me. The guy I resisted lynching was VE EBWOP: This is also a very good point. Explain why YKZ was so reluctant to vote for VE? He had a golden opportunity when they were throwing thrash at each others. This doesn't look like scum that wants to survive. This looks like town that wants to find scum.
Because a vote on VE would not have mattered since the only prospective lynch targets were YKZ, snickers, and mderg. His resistance to vote VE is irrelevant because he ultimately needs his vote to be whereever he doesn't die. This is not particularly indicative of YKZ's alignment.
On June 23 2014 07:28 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 06:58 slOosh wrote:On June 23 2014 06:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Alright, that's a fair point. Not willing to lynch ykz anymore. I don't see it, could you explain it to me? The only points against BH are how he's gone about Day 1 with tunneling Bunnies and then being antagonizing for a bit throughout the night. On Day 2, after his tunnel target died he went into the day fairly open in terms of who he wanted to lynch and re-evaluated a lot. The fact that he pushed mderg as strongly as he did is a point in his favour too. When there are some people (like myself and you) defending a scumread, there's no reason to throw him under the bus.
Mderg was not likely to be lynched at first. However, he made that extremely oppotunisitic (or unopportunistic) vote that was scummy as fuck. At that stage, YKZ's vote was still on Snickers, but I'm pretty sure YKZ is not going to martyr himself to save Mderg, so again, there's plenty of reason to throw Mderg under the bus, if YKZ is mafia, which I still expect him to flip.
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Why sloOsh is town and you guys (primarily Lazer) should not suspect him:
(skim along his filter, didn't feel like quoting)
YKZ and 27nb disagree about application of Kenpachi rule. He asks questions in order to settle the dispute. around here
Snickers makes a not-so-good post and SloOsh makes corrections around here
Advises against YKZ tunnel after
Credit to my long post (which I still believe has more merit than what 27nb did all day) where Artanis and Snickers didn't herehere
and later he attacks Artanis and VE until they play better.
Generally day 1: he tries to remove that chaos from town that YKZ created.
Corrects bad play and asks questions that move the town forward
Questions potentially scummy play and responds to changes in behavior.
Overall, very towny.
Pressure more bad play following his day 1 vote here
Questions questionable play herehere
further here
and here (and just to note, this is a slightly more harsh analysis of YKZ's day 2 play than I would have done; I believe that he is legitimately trying to move discussion to draw attention away from his scummy day 1). SloOsh sticks to his guns.
day 2 and day 3 can be categorized by forming his own opinions and asking relevant questions.
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On June 23 2014 05:59 Lazermonkey wrote:So after rereading almost all of D2-D3 I have come to the following conclusions. YKZ is 110% town. The remaining two scum are found among VE, SlOosh and Koshi. However, while I stated that SlOosh was my top scum a few posts ago I have changed my mind. I still do think SlOosh is suspicious but that has more to do with him pushing ALL the wrong wagons and putting up some quite weak reasoning for not voting mderg. He says that he doesn't like the wagon and he keeps saying that mdergs posts are "consistent" but he never explain what is so consistent with his posts. Koshi is still a scum read of mine. Not really going to repeat why I think that though, just look at my filter. My top scum read atm is Ve though. @Artanis and all other non-believers in VEs scumminess: VE sure made a case on mderg D1. But look at his follow-up to that case. Practically non-existant. And look at the vote count at time where VE left the thread: Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 08:03 OnceKing wrote:Vote Count - Day 1: 27ninjabunnies (5): YouKnowZhou, Artanis[Xp], mderg, goodkarma, Chezinu YouKnowZhou (1): Release VisceraEyes (2): Lazermonkey, slOosh mderg (2): Snickers, VisceraEyes Currently Not Voting (2): Koshi, 27ninjabunnies
Currently 27ninjabunnies is set to be lynched with 5 votes! Day will end in
Remember: Voting is mandatory. You can find the spreadsheet to the game here.
An mderg lynch is highly unlikely at this point making his vote on mderg not risky at all. Back to why VE is scum though: First off, we have the fact that VE drops case on mderg and puts a vote on him D1. But doesn't push him. And not only does he not push him. He does not try to defend Bunnies at all despite claiming that Bunnies was "supertown". Not only that but also keeps mentioning how he has both YKZ and mderg as his top scum reads yet he only keeps pushing YKZ. Convinient, huh? ##Vote: VE
I find this really weird because I see neither a strong nor even a weak case for sloOsh in your filter. There's this gem On June 23 2014 02:59 Lazermonkey wrote:
SlOosh (reponse to Koshi's "give me your top scumread") but I don't really see where this comes from. In fact since day2, you've been flip-flopping like a bass, a very mafia bass. It seems like SloOsh has just been thrown into that list for the sake of adding an extra town as a suspect. Makes me feel like Lazer is starting to grasp at straws.
Where I stand is that YKZ's day 1 scumplay should not be forgotten. Really seems like I am and have been the only one seriously considering this. His day 2 discussion play does not exonerate his mafia behavior.
Lazer to me is a more serious candidate than VE, and probably snickers too at this stage.
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On June 23 2014 12:23 Snickers wrote:
Release can you comment on Lazer Monkey's posting? I think somebody already did but I would like to hear your thoughts.
Also when you say "guys" whoever else thought that Sloosh was mafia. That seems really suspicious.
Also Release can you comment on the goodkarma kill? Do you even think it has merit?
See above, and if you are too lazy, I feel like he's grasping at straws, casting suspicion and trying to see what sticks.
I thought Artanis commented earlier but I just wanted to catchall. Think of it what you will.
I think the goodkarma kill was to kill someone not involved in controversy/chaos, a situation in which the majority of the us were.
He attacked me and YKZ early in the day before focusing on VE. At that point, he hadn't said too much except this On June 18 2014 08:32 goodkarma wrote:
##Vote: VE
It's pretty clear he's not interested in keeping up with this game and is spewing whatever comes off the top of his head. Not clearly scum-aligned thought process, but a clear liability. And there's also that he lied about his history, which is pretty durned scummy. . There is the possibility that mafia silenced him before he could say more, but I'm more inclined to believe the first sentence in this paragraph.
And for a note: I'm reading VE similarly to mderg, in that I feel his posts are somewhat suspicious but understandable in accordance with a town agenda. Also, the blatant meaning of his words do not nearly indicate as much mafia as mderg's did.
Yeah and I'll leave this here until something new comes up:
##Vote Lazermonkey
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Absolutely. But it's not a particularly strong read nor is it necessarily correct as to VE's alignment. His "clear liability" has held, but mafia and therefore worthy of a vote? I don't believe so at this moment.
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I am saying Lazer, not you, is the one "grasping...sticks."
Read the spoiler for my answer + Show Spoiler [answer] +for all the reasons that I've stated in my past few posts. But also, there are only two mafia left. I am pretty sure those two are Lazer and YKZ. YKZ has done a much better second half of D3 so far and as long as he discusses, he (as mafia) is more valuable to us than Lazer who has done pretty much nothing imo.
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VE has always been on of my candidates for mafia outside you. Although you disagree, I don' think he has done anything blatantly mafia and therefore he has only remained a candidate, and not worthy of a vote. Lazer on the other hand when I revisited his filter went from strong town Day 1 to useless D2 and D3, which pushes him ahead of VE, and snickers. I'll leave this here while I visit address your case.
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@"fake anger"
I think it's more believable that your arrogance was a play than his fake anger. When you make claims of grandeur, you imply that you will not listen to others' reasons, which is exactly what you did on day 1. It's more likely that you wanted to waste time and cause VE to appear more suspicious than he actually is.
since first p.graph in quote addresses afk, read above.
@ 2nd: Don't know why he would include the part about you.
The nested quote doesn't but the quote does? Even if you're talking about the nested quote, he agrees with himself and his statements are not contradictory. I do concede that the imcompleteness of the nested quote implicates VE for not being candid, but it's a stretch to say mafia for this.
Sloosh rock? Yeah it's suspicious but it still sounds like his reasoning is the nested quote. He only mentioned me and sloosh in response to your question, which seems definitely secondary to his original reason.
Sarcasm? It's a stretch to say it's serious. Town necessarily should be included in discussion. It is direct contradiction, and no one should (and didn't) agree without question.
afk. Read above.
vigi sounds like sarcasm, especially "stupid and scummy" = emulating YKZ. Vigi cannot possibly react quickly enough to actually do so.
@next paragraph: read my sloosh rock paragraph. Again, suspicious yes. But it sounds more like he was led into this by you, not alone.
nested quote...
D3 for referece----------------------
first two points OK. But if he gives you a pass, means that he suspects Sloosh more. I've been passing on you as long as you discuss stuff. A pass =\= townread.
The point about chez is understandable. Chez writes hidden messages. Not too hard for Chez to reveal the meaning of his messages, but VE wants more information? Understandable.
this precedes this Consistent enough.
I agree that the second part is rather useless.
Attack on sloosh, seems to defend you as a corollary.
His pass on you expired?
----------------------------------------
On June 23 2014 15:20 Snickers wrote:
Release and YKZ if you are still around. What do you make of the day one posts. Sloosh highlighted the alignment of players. I do not think all of mafia would of been on 27nb. So i think it is very likely that, not to call you out but release lazermonkey or ve is scum. So it is obvious i think Ve is the most likely out of the mentioned three. Release is most likely not. As with lazermonkey, I read his filter and I thought it looked townie, somebody just mentioned he was playing well day one then dropped off day two or vice versa.
So you most def do not want me to harp VE. If you have not yet, look at my post where I comment on where mderg says "honestly". I think mderg slipped so much with words it may have clued us in on other scum.
Day 1 posts in general or maybe you are talking about the vote (which is what sloosh did)? For posts, I thought it was full of chaos, started and perpetuated by YKZ. SloOsh tried to dissuade it.
In terms of the vote? Before the wealth of information we have now, I would say that mafia were more likely to be on the 27nb wagon since I didn't really see a reason for 27nb to be voted (yet she was voted regardless). However, I am pretty firm on Lazer and YKZ now for reasons I have already discussed.
If I had to make unflipped associations, I would say VE and YKZ are the most likely to be differently aligned. That is one hardcore bus on players with whom mderg was associated (suspected VE, voted YKZ), which I find hard to believe. I think that is the only unflipped association at this time. Where do you get me/lazer/VE?
I mentioned his stronger D1 into bad D2 and D3.
What is your opinion on Lazer?
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There is the
q
q
q
The innermost one is the nested one.
linky The nested one is where he starts with "meeeehhhhh"
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@YKZ response to my long post:
Read above is my first paragraph @ fake anger
Each line goes paragraph by paragraph.
Nested quote means to read the nested quote, which I believe is VE's reasoning.
afk means it addresses afk, so you should read my paragraph about VE's "fake anger" and afk.
First two points are the first two paragraphs after the "let's talk about D3"
Well to be fair, you ate dinner for 48 hours.
Snickers has had some seemingly convenient afk, which in hindsight is just timing issues.
It's not candid, but it is consistent. Not a lack of honesty but of straightforwardness/outrightness.
Under more thorough consideration, the change of reasoning is quite suspicious. Yeah I see what you're saying.
The sheer ridiculousness of VE's claim makes it sarcastic (or at least questionable before further consideration).
You talk about his conveniently being afk and not responding to you.. So I refer you to my paragraph above. - "Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum."
Again, it's different but not inconsistent. But, yes it is suspicious for not candid.
Responding to last paragraph before ...D2...D3. I felt like the nested quote explained enough. Again, it's consistent, but not candid.
First two points=first two paragraphs. Fair point about sloosh.
It's not the super opportune vote like the one Mderg made (in fact, I only see Sloosh also voting for you). However in light of his attack on SloOsh in conjunction with his pass on you, it is suspicious.
So at this point, his posts make much less sense to me than they once did.
----------------------------
@Lazer Color me unimpressed when I read your posts. Even YKZ, whom I have assumed was mafia through his discussion (but less so at this point), has contributed more meaningfully. I feel that your posting could be more concise and that the amount of posts D3 is not particularly representative of actually contributing to the discussion.
But at this stage, I feel that the final 2 remaining scum are almost certainly in VE/Lazer/BH. I know that unflipped associations are bad, but I feel that VE and BH cannot possibly be on the same team. (Does anyone else agree?). This makes me want to lynch Lazer. However, VE's last several posts have been quite useless and he reaffirms his suspicious reasoning for maintaining his vote on YKZ D2.
------------------------------
And @ YKZ's lazermo is town post since I just refreshed.
No. His vote doesn't matter. He could do whatever the fuck he wants and Mderg will still get lynched. I feel going any further than to say inconsequential vote ---> not alignment indicative is a stretch and probably WIFOMable.
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On June 24 2014 06:01 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +But at this stage, I feel that the final 2 remaining scum are almost certainly in VE/Lazer/BH. I know that unflipped associations are bad, but I feel that VE and BH cannot possibly be on the same team. (Does anyone else agree?). I completely disagree. I think both BH/VE are town or scum, with an outside chance of BH being scum and VE town.
Both town: You think that they would ignore each other to such a great extent?
Both scum: You think that they would create this bus on each other and stick with it for this long?
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On June 24 2014 06:05 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 06:02 Release wrote:On June 24 2014 06:01 Artanis[Xp] wrote:But at this stage, I feel that the final 2 remaining scum are almost certainly in VE/Lazer/BH. I know that unflipped associations are bad, but I feel that VE and BH cannot possibly be on the same team. (Does anyone else agree?). I completely disagree. I think both BH/VE are town or scum, with an outside chance of BH being scum and VE town. Both town: You think that they would ignore each other to such a great extent? Both scum: You think that they would create this bus on each other and stick with it for this long? Both town: What do you mean with ignoring each other? They've been posting a ton about each other. Both scum: Yeah. VE's done it before, see LI where VE and Toad had a bus that would put this one to shame.
Town: Claiming that the other is lying when one responds other (BH on VE).
Claiming that the other is lying/misleading/blatantly wrong when reasons are made (VE on BH).
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essentially not acknowledging the other's reasons.
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On June 22 2014 05:11 Lazermonkey wrote:
I will try to explain my actions yesterday as best as I can in this post. But it will hopefully be the only time I talk about the subject. I'm not under direct threat to get lynched as it seems and I'd rather spend my time trying to find scum.
I have been busy, more busy than I thought I was going to be. I didn't have time to analyze the players in the game good enough and went into stubborn-tunnel-townie-mode. As a result, my read on Mderg was wrong and it is a fair assumption that alot of my other reads are completely wrong also. I will therefore try to spend alot of time to figure shit out. Sadly, I still don't have much time today but both tomorrow and the day after that I will have lots of time to spare.
In summary: I sucked yesterday but tomorrow I will try not to suck.
@Koshi
I did consolidate D2. I did it far to late though but at the time of my second last post before lynch, it weren't obvious that the lynch would be between YKZ and mderg. Even if you don't believe me, how does me not consolidating make me scum...? If you are town (which you may actually be since I suck) then you are probably just butthurt since I was tunneling you so hard.
Doesn't explain other than what was already strongly implied. Expected some master read or something.
On June 23 2014 02:48 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 01:35 Koshi wrote:On June 23 2014 01:29 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 23 2014 01:27 Koshi wrote:On June 23 2014 00:56 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 23 2014 00:46 Koshi wrote:
Yes. Belgium playing soon so let's all cheer together. Nobody likes Russians anyway. Okay, lets consider some facts. You are obviously active since you answered both of my posts within 5 minutes. I am your biggest scum read.Alot of people (read: not a majority) don't want to kill me.If I were in your shoes (assuming that you are town now), I know what I would've done. I would've pushed the fuck out of that Lazermonkey-basterd. You on the other hand, seem okay with just leaving your vote on me and chilling. Why are you not pushing me? Why not push SlOosh? How should I push you? Please tell me how my case on you should look like. Why should I tell you how should get me lynched? I'm not voting myself. I am voting you because you did nothing else but talk about me D2 while there was a lot of things happening. I do not understand what you want me to do more. Please explain to me how I am not pushing you enough. I told everybody why I am voting you. How is that reread from D2 going? It seems like you still think I should be pushed over anybody else. You got nothing at all from D2? Or do you have new evidence against me. Let's talk about that. Because from where I am sitting you are still scumreading me for not doing enough. This time not doing enough to push you. It's getting boring. Okay, you clearly don't get the point I'm trying to make so I'll be as clear as I can. First off, I'm over halfway done with my reread. I don't have you as my top scum read anymore (though I still have some pages left so that is subject to change), although I still think you are suspicious. More about this later though. Yes, I don't think anyone has missed the point that you are voting me. But I never said anything about that. Even if we pretend that you are town and that BOTH me and SlOosh are scum then you are still useless if you cannot get the rest of the town to vote us. Right now, I'm not getting lynched. Why are "done" with the pushing me? If you wanted me to die, wouldn't you push me and try to get me lynched? Wouldn't you try to convince those who say that I'm probably town that they are wrong, that their arguments are flawed and what not? Last but not least: you can respond to this all you want but I'm not very interested in discussing this topic with you. I don't think you'll vote yourself. I want everyone else to respond and give their thoughts about you. That's why I write this.
His thoughts exist for town to consider. He's bad for being done, and you counter by being "done" with him. Very verbose, and very useless.
On June 23 2014 06:50 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 06:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Lazer, one interesting tidbit in that is that once we switched to Snickers, BH became complacent about whether Snickers or mderg should be lynched and even resisted switching back to mderg at first. It wasn't a very strong kind of resistance, but resistance nonetheless. Which makes alot of sense given that YKZ is town don't you think? I understand that there is a possibility that YKZ is scum and it was a clear exaggeration to say that YKZ was "110% town!". Yet it does become hard to justify a YKZ scum read. It seems like you and SlOosh are implying that there is a possibilty that YKZ is scum. But I see very little evidence that YKZ actually is scum. And even less that would make him a better alternative than SlOosh, VE or Koshi aka players that have done real scummy stuff. How do you explain why he started pushing the case against mderg so hard when there was many other possible targets? How do you explain that the restistance wasn't bigger for switching back to mderg? Etc.
Considering the post made 23 minutes earlier, this is not very useful.
On June 23 2014 19:21 Lazermonkey wrote:
I love how Release here-is-why-you-shouldn't-vote-for-SlOosh post basically goes something like this:
He did alot of good things D1 like
-Bla
-Blablabla
-bLaBLaBLaBLaBLA
-etc
and he did the same D2 and D3.
This is not how you evaluate if someone is scum or not. You don't even mention the fact that SlOosh was the dude that soft defended mderg through all of D1 and D2.
You don't even mention how he, during D1, never said anything in particular about what made him think mderg wasn't a possible lynch candidate other than "his posts are consistent". Yet he never says why they are consistent.
During D2 he claims that the mderg case has some merit but that he still doesn't want to lynch him because his posts are "consistent". Also mention that his meta is wishy washy but never displays an example of that.
first half? Criticize the content not the style.
Shit like those are the reason that I had felt that Snickers was mafia earlier, and why I think you're mafia now.
And wow. VE really has made no effort to give his reads. If he does last 10 minutes thing again, this might change but for now.
##unvote
##Vote VE
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"If we assume that Koshi is town, how could you justify his actions?"
"If we assume that Koshi is town, how could you justify his actions?"
same game?
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Can you underscore/quote specifically where Lazer votes based on others' reasons?
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VE please say something useful
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Lazer is a flip-flop-flippin.
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On June 24 2014 09:00 slOosh wrote:
Release please swaperonis!
would lazer but not koshi atm
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Because he hasn't defended himself. I guess the same could be said for Koshi, although the lynch-worthy pressure on Koshi is much newer (and he just went to sleep and apparently he's awake).
So I guess now, the onus is on Koshi to say something useful.
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Not in a particularly meaningful way.
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I feel that you did not refute YKZ's points in his big case adequately. (@VE)
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VE, for fun's sake. Explain one more time your reason for voting YKZ at the end of D2.
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MY suspicion originates from this:
On June 24 2014 09:14 Release wrote:
VE, for fun's sake. Explain one more time your reason for voting YKZ at the end of D2.
This is your latest respones
On June 24 2014 05:24 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 05:21 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 24 2014 05:16 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 24 2014 05:15 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I still have one tool left with which to lynch you, VE, should it come down to that. I will read on lazermo and you shall have my read. I do not anticipate being swayed to vote him over you, especially since this case appeared only when you were on mortal danger. In the end, though, I'll have my say and I'll do my best to be right. I'll remind you that one of us lynched mderg yesterday and the other is you. You say that, but I made a case on him and repeatedly stated that I was fine with him being lynched. I don't care how many times you say that I wasn't a factor in his lynch because my vote was on someone else, the facts and my posts speak for themselves. You made a case on him, said you were fine with him being lynched, then you didn't push him or vote him, and voted for his counterwagon even after your stated reason for voting the counterwagon went away. I know I overuse the phrase, but that's pretty much classic scum play. You voted mderg day 1, then day 2 you didn't vote him and made noises about how he was scum, but didn't follow it up, voted someone else, and day 2 was the day that mattered. And I stated my reasoning for voting for you when I did - that slOosh and Release had voted for you and Koshi and Snickers had voted for mderg and I felt better about slOosh and Release than I did about Koshi and Snickers. That's my reasoning. You can pull out all the quotes and vote-timings and everything that you want, but that's my reasoning and that's why I voted. I don't care if you think it doesn't make sense, it's factual and real and true. You repeatedly stating that it's NOT true and NOT real and NOT factual is wrong and bad. WRONG and BAD BH.
That was your initial reasoning. Then you flamed some on BH for his godly mafia claims, and said that was your reason. Then you said it was SloOsh and me again, but at that moment I had already switched to Mderg. Then you claim it was only at the initial moment. IF you were literally sheeping me and sloOsh, you would have responded to my change with something more than, 'he did it earlier.' That is what sounds like justification, which makes you suspicious.
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Exactly what YKZ mentioned in his case:
X caused you to vote. X changed. Your vote didn't and you didn't respond to X's change.
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I said SloOsh is town, and I stand by that statement.
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You could read my other post.
A summary would be that he asked questions that are useful to town.
When others create chaos, his posts dissuade it.
He forms his own opinions.
Haven't seen anything particularly misleading/incriminating as we have seen from Mderg, VE (even though he flipped town, some of his play was less than consistent), YKZ, and Lazer (imo).
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And since the night is just about over:
I still think that we should be lynching into YKZ/Lazer. Koshi is now the third candidate if one of them flips town.
Please, please, please, do not forget YKZ's deplorable Day 1 play.
Lazer's bandwagoning nature is also worthy of scrutiny.
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GG.
On June 25 2014 09:00 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 08:58 Release wrote:
You could read my other post.
A summary would be that he asked questions that are useful to town.
When others create chaos, his posts dissuade it.
He forms his own opinions.
Haven't seen anything particularly misleading/incriminating as we have seen from Mderg, VE (even though he flipped town, some of his play was less than consistent), YKZ, and Lazer (imo). While this type of post are good for town, its really easy to make them as scum as well. I don't buy too much into it.
This is a summary of my other post. Artanis had trouble finding it. I'm not trying to pass this as new information, which you seem to be implying.
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FFS his late vote was inconsequential, and I had initially thought not alignment indicative. However, under further consideration, the vote will certainly generate discussion about itself, not particularly useful information (I believe), so I see it as an impetus for increased chaos in our discussions. I think Lazer tried to brush off the vote with the few posts after his vote, and stop us from ascribing responsibility to him. However, if you believe that the vote was a well-informed decision (and I don't believe that anything says otherwise), then I have to believe that Lazer intended to cause chaos with the vote.
In addition to his vacillating nature,
##Vote Lazermonkey
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On June 26 2014 07:16 Chezinu wrote:
Release, I know I haven't talked to you directly all game. But I have something very important to ask you. Why do you think there is a roleblocker in this game?
Did I say something about a roleblocker?
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On June 26 2014 07:46 Lazermonkey wrote:
Went back and analyzed both Artanis's and GK's filter. While we can only speculate on why they got shot we do know that they got shot for a reason
People have already tried to get a grip of the GK-shot. Most people had him as townie after D1 IIRC so it makes a bit of sense to shoot him none the less. He was also suspcious of mderg. What I haven't seen someone say (and this may be because I simply missed it, CBA to look through all pages really...) is that he was pushing Release quite a bit. This makes Release look a little worse IMO.
As for Artanis's filter its kinda hard. I think he got shot simply for the fact that he was a town read for basically everyone.
He made two posts about how I may be suspicious (I don't think that constitutes "pushing ... quite a bit":
One for an "inconsistency" which I explained.
Second for a meta read comparing himself to me, which I also explained.
The post immediately after those two is one that attacks YKZ (for similar reasoning as mine), something that only I was doing.
Seems like he pushed me at first, was satisfied by my response, and then started to hunt elsewhere.
Lo and behold, another instance of the grasping at straws and casting suspicion that I mentioned earlier.
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Read the checks and my stance has not changed. Lazer/YKZ today.
Lazer, what do you think of the checks and how do they affect your reads?
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I think he is detective, not cop? (cop implying role cop)
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You could respond to this :
On June 26 2014 08:06 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2014 07:46 Lazermonkey wrote:
Went back and analyzed both Artanis's and GK's filter. While we can only speculate on why they got shot we do know that they got shot for a reason
People have already tried to get a grip of the GK-shot. Most people had him as townie after D1 IIRC so it makes a bit of sense to shoot him none the less. He was also suspcious of mderg. What I haven't seen someone say (and this may be because I simply missed it, CBA to look through all pages really...) is that he was pushing Release quite a bit. This makes Release look a little worse IMO.
As for Artanis's filter its kinda hard. I think he got shot simply for the fact that he was a town read for basically everyone. He made two posts about how I may be suspicious (I don't think that constitutes "pushing ... quite a bit": One for an "inconsistency" which I explained. Second for a meta read comparing himself to me, which I also explained. The post immediately after those two is one that attacks YKZ (for similar reasoning as mine), something that only I was doing. Seems like he pushed me at first, was satisfied by my response, and then started to hunt elsewhere. Lo and behold, another instance of the grasping at straws and casting suspicion that I mentioned earlier.
And you said this, mentioning YKZ vs Chez and Snickers in distinct groups, mentioning YKZ first aka "before" (not necessarily more town than) chez and snickers, which is what Snickers claims here and you twist his words:
On June 27 2014 03:20 Lazermonkey wrote:
I'm not really sure what to say. If it is true that we have 2 investigative roles + a doctor then I'd say scum are bound to have at least 1 power role to counter act that. More likely they have 2. This is obviously a bunch of speculation but something like goon/GF/framer scumteam would seem very resonable to me, especially since it would fuck with the 2 investigative roles. Otherwise the setup would be very town favoured.
This is IF both claims are true, which isn't necessarily the case. I find Snickers fake-claiming unlikely. Partly because of what YKZ pointed out earlier and partly why would you claim to have a town read on me at this state of the game as scum? Chezinu's claim, on the other hand, could be fake. I'm still unsure of why YKZ was so sure that Chezinu was doctor this whole time so therefore I cannot really go in to far on this issue. But from my PoV it does seem fishy that he claims to have gotten a goon check on me. I can't really argue much with this since I could very well have been framed. However, I DO think it is important that we do not regard Chez as confirmed town unless we have very good reasons to.
If you lynch me, which is still likely, the fact that I flip green will obviously point towards that Snickers is in fact sane. It is, however, possible that he is insane and that I got framed but based purely on probabilty, I don't think this is the case. I would also argue that I'm a pretty bad frame target since I was very likely to get lynched no matter what, thus cops/detectives are more unlikely to check me.
So, who do I want to lynch then? Koshi. By process of elimination I know that YKZ is likely town. Chez and Snickers are likely town (and also are the guys that will get shot, thus wasting lynches on them is bad). SlOosh I dislike but his green check means that he is likely town. This leaves Release and Koshi. The fact that Koshi has been scummier in general this game makes me want to kill him over Release. But I'm obviously willing to kill anyone in order to survive at this point...
On June 27 2014 03:30 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 03:18 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 03:02 Snickers wrote:
Also just thought about something interesting. I am not 100% sure about this but lets consider something. YKZ hard pushes 27nb on day one. Relatively early. Same thing day two with VE. Now day three he has not pushed anyone yet, but only six hour till deadline? His biggest move so far was defending Lazer. Looking likely those two are scum. > claims to be cop > doesn't know what day it is, or who has been lynched on what day Amazingly, It's not even like he's scum for this, either. I'm sure scum would be keenly aware that it is in fact Day 4. I wish I could call Snickers scum. There just aren't words appropriate for a mafia game for me to say that would adequately define my opinion of a case against me based on the fact that D1 and D2 I mislynched 27nb and VE, and now on "D3" I'm defending LM. Like, not only is it not D3, but on D2 it was mderg that was lynched, and oh my god I can't even deal with this guy lol thats the first decent size mistake i made in this game. A lot of a mistake than all the people that did not even read the roles. Anyway, day one hard pushed 27nb early Day two was hard pushing me I guess, will look into it when I get time before the lynch. Day three hard push ve early. Day four defend lazer early. And it is weird that Lazer says YKZ is town before me and chezinu.
On June 27 2014 04:01 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 03:30 Snickers wrote:On June 27 2014 03:18 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 03:02 Snickers wrote:
Also just thought about something interesting. I am not 100% sure about this but lets consider something. YKZ hard pushes 27nb on day one. Relatively early. Same thing day two with VE. Now day three he has not pushed anyone yet, but only six hour till deadline? His biggest move so far was defending Lazer. Looking likely those two are scum. > claims to be cop > doesn't know what day it is, or who has been lynched on what day Amazingly, It's not even like he's scum for this, either. I'm sure scum would be keenly aware that it is in fact Day 4. I wish I could call Snickers scum. There just aren't words appropriate for a mafia game for me to say that would adequately define my opinion of a case against me based on the fact that D1 and D2 I mislynched 27nb and VE, and now on "D3" I'm defending LM. Like, not only is it not D3, but on D2 it was mderg that was lynched, and oh my god I can't even deal with this guy lol thats the first decent size mistake i made in this game. A lot of a mistake than all the people that did not even read the roles. Anyway, day one hard pushed 27nb early Day two was hard pushing me I guess, will look into it when I get time before the lynch. Day three hard push ve early. Day four defend lazer early. And it is weird that Lazer says YKZ is town before me and chezinu. I never said I thought YKZ was more town than you...
You should talk about things other than the checks because as far as we know, we have 3? town power roles and there is a good chance of GF/Framer. The checks tangentially guide us. They are not gospel.
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YKZ is mafia. His day 1 play is inexcusably stubborn/unresponsive and therefore mafia. Although he has played a useful past few days, this only delays my wanting to lynch him. It does not exculpate him and I have assumed that he was mafia throughout our discussions.
SloOsh is town for me. First 3 days were quite chaotic. When I read his filter, I find that he does not contribute to the chaos. Even though he said this:On June 26 2014 13:01 slOosh wrote:
I was framed, you're insane. Npnp.
and peace'd out. You and YKZ are my mafia and probably his too. SloOsh just placed the simplest consistent scenario with that. Don't agree with his analysis since the accuracy of the checks are dubious (because of mafia PRs), but don't think that makes him mafia.
Koshi is the mafia candidate outside you and YKZ that would become a lynch candidate if you or YKZ flip town. His play this game has not been particularly good (and at times absolutely useless). However, I still think that his play has been more meaningful than your's.
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On June 27 2014 05:49 Snickers wrote:
Release is starting to look scummy again. Someone mentions his name, bam he's in the thread.
Because it feels like I make a post then everyone ignores it (and therefore my posts are meaningless). When someone mentions my name, they want my opinion and therefore my posts are not meaningless. Interpret that however you please.
Pretty much YKZ's D1 is what makes him scum.
Because when the thread is filled with tunneling, OMGUS, and is primarily focused on a single battle, asking questions leads us to consider other options. I agree that his passiveness is noteworthy, but even with that, I do not think that it outweighs what I perceive to be his information-gathering agenda.
+ Show Spoiler +having said that, if he says absolutely nothing until the end of the day and you do flip town, that would make me feel that he is suspicious to similar levels as that which I felt about Snickers D2 (which in hindsight was just timing issues). Afk complete peace out is not tolerable, even more so than 48 hour dinner since YKZ actually did something prior to D2 deadline
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Aaand since I didn't refresh before posting, the spoiler is pretty much irrelevant.
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Lazer, forget the checks. Reread YKZ day 1. How do you feel about him and why?
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Forget the check. Stance on YKZ? (goes to everyone)
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What about the fact that others told him that he was wrong and he still insisted that he was right?
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Yes YKZ. It wasn't a disagreement of opinion; it was the fact that he insisted that 27nb voted because of VT claim, and when 27nb and I said it was because of the "limited information" YKZ still said it was because of the VT claim.
Pushing a confirmed town is not why I think he is mafia. It is the way in which he pushed 27nb.
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On June 27 2014 06:56 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 06:25 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 05:49 Snickers wrote:
Release is starting to look scummy again. Someone mentions his name, bam he's in the thread. Because it feels like I make a post then everyone ignores it (and therefore my posts are meaningless). When someone mentions my name, they want my opinion and therefore my posts are not meaningless. Interpret that however you please. Pretty much YKZ's D1 is what makes him scum. Because when the thread is filled with tunneling, OMGUS, and is primarily focused on a single battle, asking questions leads us to consider other options. I agree that his passiveness is noteworthy, but even with that, I do not think that it outweighs what I perceive to be his information-gathering agenda. + Show Spoiler +having said that, if he says absolutely nothing until the end of the day and you do flip town, that would make me feel that he is suspicious to similar levels as that which I felt about Snickers D2 (which in hindsight was just timing issues). Afk complete peace out is not tolerable, even more so than 48 hour dinner since YKZ actually did something prior to D2 deadline First part seems like you are justifying the fact that you aren't giving out reads in a very bad way. That is at least how I interpret it. So basically, YKZ being wrong=>YKZ is scum. Do you really believe this logic yourself. Also, have you even considered what he has done since then?`He was the fucking dude that got mderg lynched. Are you not reading or refusing to understand? I never said that asking questions and such was bad. It IS, however, non-commital. Its at most a sliiight town tell but mostly null.
Fair enough.
YKZ was wrong, was corrected, still insisted on his wrong reasoning.
I understand, but it doesn't actively lead town astray. Maybe I am being fooled by fake activity and I have to reread his filter, but I am doubtful. I'll revisit this after a reread.
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YKZ explain this to me:
If you claim vt at the start of the day, and someone votes for you for some uncontiguous reason, does it still count as an appropriate application of the kenpachi rule?
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On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip.
At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input).
Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post.
You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God"
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On June 27 2014 08:03 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God" So when you were talking about Koshi as a third consideration over an LM/YKZ lynch if one of the two of us flips town, what you really meant was that you wanted to lynch LM first, then decide between me and koshi? Or am I misunderstanding your priorities here?
Lynch whichever of you I thought was scummier. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped town, then decide between Koshi and the other. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped mafia, then lynch the other.
it just so happens to be that "scummier" is LM today, and "the other" is by default, you (YKZ)
On June 27 2014 08:04 Lazermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God" Yhea, getting people lycnhed is totally not something town would want to do.. Owait.
"someone" as in not necessarily mafia. Would you have preferred me to say "anyone?"
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On June 27 2014 08:11 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:08 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 08:03 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God" So when you were talking about Koshi as a third consideration over an LM/YKZ lynch if one of the two of us flips town, what you really meant was that you wanted to lynch LM first, then decide between me and koshi? Or am I misunderstanding your priorities here? Lynch whichever of you I thought was scummier. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped town, then decide between Koshi and the other. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped mafia, then lynch the other. it just so happens to be that "scummier" is LM today, and "the other" is by default, you (YKZ) Ok, I see what you're saying. I'm just confused because 2 hours ago you said this: Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 05:42 Release wrote:
Koshi is the mafia candidate outside you and YKZ that would become a lynch candidate if you or YKZ flip town. His play this game has not been particularly good (and at times absolutely useless). However, I still think that his play has been more meaningful than your's. But this makes sense. In your mind, you are thinking "I expect YKZ and LM to be scum together. A large amount of my scumread on them is an associative tell between unflipped players. If one of them flips town, my scumread on the other becomes weaker, more on par with my scumread on Koshi-- so I'll need to re-evaluate." Is that accurate?
Not quite. It's not that my scumread on the other becomes weaker. It's the fact that there are 2 mafia left. It is stupid for me not to consider who the other mafia might be, therefore I must decide between the two remaining mafia. I think you might be reading too much into "I would probably lynch Koshi tomorrow." That is contingent upon his contributing nothing at the end of today and not doing anything tomorrow. Like I said: "(but of course I would have to consider his next day input)."
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On June 27 2014 08:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:25 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 27 2014 08:24 slOosh wrote:
Snickers if Lazer flips town we can deal with it then. GG. Nice waste of 72 hours bro. Don't give up. Keep talking. Keep giving reads. We need to play on after you're dead. If you're town, don't be mad. be vigilant. Tell me something I acn use tomorrow; anything. Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:21 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 08:11 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 08:08 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 08:03 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God" So when you were talking about Koshi as a third consideration over an LM/YKZ lynch if one of the two of us flips town, what you really meant was that you wanted to lynch LM first, then decide between me and koshi? Or am I misunderstanding your priorities here? Lynch whichever of you I thought was scummier. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped town, then decide between Koshi and the other. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped mafia, then lynch the other. it just so happens to be that "scummier" is LM today, and "the other" is by default, you (YKZ) Ok, I see what you're saying. I'm just confused because 2 hours ago you said this: On June 27 2014 05:42 Release wrote:
Koshi is the mafia candidate outside you and YKZ that would become a lynch candidate if you or YKZ flip town. His play this game has not been particularly good (and at times absolutely useless). However, I still think that his play has been more meaningful than your's. But this makes sense. In your mind, you are thinking "I expect YKZ and LM to be scum together. A large amount of my scumread on them is an associative tell between unflipped players. If one of them flips town, my scumread on the other becomes weaker, more on par with my scumread on Koshi-- so I'll need to re-evaluate." Is that accurate? Not quite. It's not that my scumread on the other becomes weaker. It's the fact that there are 2 mafia left. It is stupid for me not to consider who the other mafia might be, therefore I must decide between the two remaining mafia. I think you might be reading too much into "I would probably lynch Koshi tomorrow." That is contingent upon his contributing nothing at the end of today and not doing anything tomorrow. Like I said: "(but of course I would have to consider his next day input)." Fair enough. Take a moment, if you would, to look at how Koshi and how LM have played today. Has LM tried to get basically anyone who's not him lynched? Yeah, but I can't blame him. But at least Koshi is giving reads. He wants town to go onw hen he dies. And Koshji? Koshi has done literally nothing but complain about possibly being lynched, defending himself, voting LM,a nd as asoon as it's clear his life is no longer in imminent danger, Koshi is GONE. He doesn't care about what happens. Yeah, he's probably REALLY actually watching soccer games and stuff, but look. The guy only defends himself and gets pissy about potentially getting lynched. Who here has been the better townie? The answer is LM. We should lynch Koshi today.
My main point on LM scum is the haphazard SloOsh inclusion into his mafia circa D3. Since then, his play has been underwhelming until he was a serious lynch target.
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On June 27 2014 08:46 Lazermonkey wrote:
Also, look at Release's argument. He basically refuses to rethink his read on you (YKZ) based on what happend D1. I mean, maybe he is always like this? But that just really, really bad.
And you only bring this up now? I've maintained that I thought he was mafia throughout the game.
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LM: Me/Koshi/SloOsh. Who is it?
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Address sloOsh's ealier comment: why not convincing him of my scumminess instead of vice-versa?
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Stance unchanged. Read my D4 convo w/ YKZ for more info.
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I should start linking instead of spoiler quoting: 3 part post inc. b/c I am too lazy to split properly
+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote:Preamble - Throwning downLook guys, there are a lot of things that could have gone down with night actions, and maybe it's possible Sloosh is the GF or he was a scum player who was framed, or some other weird set of circumstances (snickers insane and LM and I were framed, etc). But when it comes down to it, we should not be lynching into green checks today. We shouldn't have lynched into green checks tomorrow. Assuming there's no cc for snickers (and at this point, I'd be pretty surprised if there was, and suspicious of any cc of snickers), we should not lynch into his green checks today, and we shouldn't lync snicks. I've decided we should lynch Release over Koshi, for reasons I'll explain later in this post. It looks like during the night people (including people who thought I was scum defending scum LM...) have decided I am scum and want to lynch me. Here's what I gotta say to anyone who seriously wants to lynch me: You're welcome to try. You will fail. I'm better than you; I'm more convincing, I'm more experienced, I'm one of the best players on TL Mafia, and this is LYLO. I won't lie down and say "well, treat me as conftown after I flip" because if I flip, it's game over. The fact of the matter is, I'm an extremely convincing player, and I'm only MORE convincing when I can use real facts to defend myself and accuse my enemies.
Chapter 1 - All Systems GreenFirst off, here are reasons not to lynch me or sloosh tomorrow (assuming snicks gets shot, which he will). Imagine for a moment, you're not in this game, but you're observing it. It's D4, and the cop reveals 3 green checks. For some reason, the entire game decides to lynch one of his green checks, and one of his other green checks hard defends the other one to the point that people start thinking the 2nd guy is scum too. The first guy flips scum, and D5 the cop is dead and people want to lynch the 2nd greencheck now. If you saw town systematically lynching through the greenchecks of the flipped cop, your first thought would be "wat". Your second thought would be "man, I wonder what these guys are thinking. There's no way I could possibly be so awful when I play this game". The fact of the matter is, if you lynch me, you will be that town who decided the best pool of people to lynch into on D4 and D5 LYLO was the pool of people the cop got green on. You will never live it down. In retrospect, lynching VE was a mistake for a number of reasons, but the biggest of them was that despite being pigheaded, strident, and generally disagreeable and ragey, VE is in fact highly intelligent. Sure, he didn't like LM, but I am sure if he were alive his advice wouldn't be "let's systematically lynch the greenchecks" because honestly that plan is awful. "Now wait, Blazinghand", you say, "I'm not saying we should lynch all the greenchecks. I'm just saying that yesterday we needed to lynch LM because he was scummy, and you were scummy for defendhing him, your scumbuddy. Now, he flipped town, so you're scummy for defending someone who was lynched and flipped town. You HAPPEN to have a greencheck on you, but that won't stop us from lynching you." Ok, look, you can have whatever reason you want for systematically lynching through the greenchecks. Maybe you think Snickers is insane, which is possible. But boy, after the first one flips green, you should probably stop and think "maybe, just maybe, we're totally wrong about this thing. Maybe it's actually a bad idea to do this." I'll admit, on some level I want to lynch slOosh. He could be scum. But the fact of the matter is, there's a green check on him. If it comes down to it, we can deal with him in 3-player LYLO after lynching his buddy. If release flips GF, then we can be assured that both Sloosh and I are town, since this game is exceedingly unlikely to have both GF *and* Framer (since cop would be effectively useless, and anti-role, then). If release flips Framer, then we can cast doubt on the green checks for reasons related to him potentially framing me or Sloosh as scum. If Release flips Goon, then the last scum is either GF or Framer and we also probably can't trust the checks. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Unless you believe in a BH/Sloosh scumteam, there's at least one scum amongst Koshi/Release, and if we lynch that scum first (similar odds there), then we can go into LYLO potentially with tons of info. Our odds aren't worse, and they're potentially much, much better. I'd like to point out the non-trivial chance that Me and Sloosh are both town and the green checks (which so far have been 100% accurate) are accurate on us. Don't lynch into the green checks tomorrow. At the endgame, you know what's gonna happen, right? VE will be in here and say "wow, BH is such an idiot for lynching me, because without me there was nobody to tell town not to be idiotic. somehow you jubjubs lynched only into the cop's green checks? Are you kidding me? And BH, you talk about how "pro" you are at mafia but you and one of your top townreads got lynched while you had green checks on you. I can't believe this." And he'll be right, too. As the only experienced, intelligent player here, it's my job to lead the town. I failed yesterday, but I won't fail today.
Intermezzo - my townreads Snickers: we all know snickers is town unless cced so we're not lynching him, ever. Sloosh: although the VCA wiggles its eyebrows suggestively, there's a greencheck on this guy. Also, despite whatever uselessness he does, I feel like his awfulness is distinct enough he's likely to be town. Also, that little VCA chart thing impressed me. Sloosh is in zero danger of being lynched. If he's scum, he doesn't need to post a freakin VCA chart, all he has to do is yell that I'm scum (as he had been doing for days...) and hang out and post a tiny bit. Mostly though it's the green check. Chezinu: as a matter of principle I don't try to make reads on chez and just treat him as town. If I'm the cop, I check him. The fact that snickers never checked chezinu but instead checked like sloosh, is frankly awful. If our blues misplay and fail to shoot or check chezinu all game, I'm willing to accept a loss any time he rolls scum. I don't even want to policy this guy ever because honestly there are bigger fish. I will not lynch chezinu unless someone claims a scum check on him, or it's like 2-1 lylo and there's a conftown, and it's me vs chez or something like that where I know he's scum.
Chapter Two - Vote Count AnalSloosh, like the reliable greencheck he is, provided a color-coded VCA chart for us. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22454200The Day 1 lynch is pretty straightforward. 7 votes on 27nb, 3 on mderg, 1 on me. Snickers we can consider town because of his cop claim, so we have to ask ourselves: Did all scum unnecessarily vote together on 27nb? Sure, I was pushing that wagon all day and maybe mderg hopped one arly ish, but if the third scum is Chez, Koshi, or Sloosh, they really did NOT have to be on 27nb to save snickers. no, in my opinion the 7-4-1 result indicates a wagon that did not need all 3 scum to be on it. Even in the event of all 3 scum being on 27nb, I expect at least one scum to not commit to lynching a VT over his buddy when it's so lopsided and jump off. Since everyone on mderg is town, we can reasonably expect Release to be scum from D1 VCA. Looking at the D2 wagon, I see two possibilties. Since it would have been trivial for Koshi, Release, or Chez to jump on to me (maybe not in terms of explanation, but that 1 vote would have swung it even without LM voting), I immediatley wonder if sloosh and snickers were somehow scum and voted together with mderg to try to save him. That being said, Snickers is town and there's a greencheck against sloosh. If I were scum going into D2 I'd want to bus mderg, as he was the counterwagon to a D1 wagon on a VT, and was pretty close in the running. None of the people who voted mderg D1 are dead during D2, except of course 27nb, so you can expect him to at least be a candidate D2. So who was added to the mderg wagon, who voted mderg D2 and not D1, who might have been scum looking for a chance to bus? Well, I see Release and Koshi on that wagon, which again lines up with what I said in the preamble. These guys saw an opportunity to bus a goon and went for it. This is exceptionally true for Release. Release voted me D1, when I wasn't a legit wagon, instead of mderg, who was. On D2, you see Release voting mderg, instead of me, the guy he wanted to lynch D1. Remember, during D1 27nb had not yet flipped town, so during D2 Release should have been more suspicious of me. Yet he moves his vote to mderg, who is probably on the way out as the counterwagon to 27nb D1. In my opinion, this discrepancy in voting indicates that Release's motivations are not thought through from a perspective of "I want to lynch YKZ" but "I want to lynch mderg, but only when it's clear he's going to be lynched". The only part that doesn't fit for me is why Release wouldn't swap over to me, given that he voted me D2. I really think he'd take the opportunity to save his teammate and look consistent with his D1 play. Still, There were SOME shenannies around the deadline, but he must have known mderg would vote me. The evidence of the green check by snickers on sloosh is bigger imo than the evidence of "scum on the mderg wagon could have swapped". Perhaps it would look too bad to swap from a scum wagon to a town wagon late in the day, and they figured mderg was going down eventually anyways. D3 and D4 were both pretty onesided. To all of you who voted for LM D4, it's worth noting that Artanis and VE, whose votes couldn't swing the wagon anyways during D3, ended up voting Koshi over LM, yet somehow we ended up lynching LM who had a greencheck on him ._.
Coda - From Beyond the GraveDue to VCA from D1, I believe Release to be a better target for today's lynch than Koshi. However, I would like to bring in some support from Lazermonkey, who I think we can all agree is town (I assume; a green check wouldn't convince you "players" (I use the term generously) that he was town, perhaps a townflip from the mod may not). Here, briefly, is LM's case on Release, supplemented with my own words I've encorporated phrases from the following posts, to make one hybrid case. I find Snickers fake-claiming unlikely. Partly because of what YKZ pointed out earlier and partly why would you claim to have a town read on me at this state of the game as scum?
Chez and Snickers are likely town (and also are the guys that will get shot, thus wasting lynches on them is bad). SlOosh I dislike but his green check means that he is likely town. This leaves Release and Koshi. Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 06:25 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 05:49 Snickers wrote:
Release is starting to look scummy again. Someone mentions his name, bam he's in the thread. Because it feels like I make a post then everyone ignores it (and therefore my posts are meaningless). When someone mentions my name, they want my opinion and therefore my posts are not meaningless. Interpret that however you please. Pretty much YKZ's D1 is what makes him scum. Because when the thread is filled with tunneling, OMGUS, and is primarily focused on a single battle, asking questions leads us to consider other options. I agree that his passiveness is noteworthy, but even with that, I do not think that it outweighs what I perceive to be his information-gathering agenda. + Show Spoiler +having said that, if he says absolutely nothing until the end of the day and you do flip town, that would make me feel that he is suspicious to similar levels as that which I felt about Snickers D2 (which in hindsight was just timing issues). Afk complete peace out is not tolerable, even more so than 48 hour dinner since YKZ actually did something prior to D2 deadline First part seems like you are justifying the fact that you aren't giving out reads in a very bad way. That is at least how I interpret it.
So basically, YKZ being wrong=>YKZ is scum. Do you really believe this logic yourself. Also, have you even considered what he has done since then?`He was the fucking dude that got mderg lynched.
Are you not reading or refusing to understand? I never said that asking questions and such was bad. It seems like you're really stretching to give a scumread and not be helpful and at the same time call other people scum. Look at it this way: If you were town, you' dbe willing to play the game. Yet here you are, stonewalling my precious time left alive.
Now that Chezinu has unclaimed... Chezinu fake-claimed so I don't have a red check on myself. Therefore, you should unvote me. The list for people that we are allowed to chose from (to kill) is
-Release
-Koshi
These guys are most likely the scum.
Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God"
Yhea, getting people lycnhed is totally not something town would want to do.. Owait. This push on YKZ is awful. That's just how the guy plays, he wants to lynch his targets. We all do, youc an't call him scum for that. bad reasoning. You're scum.
Looks like I won't live.
I'm honestly pretty sad right now. I know that there are 2 scum on my wagon but it also means that there are 3 dumb townies on my wagon as well.
As for my wills:
-Anyone thinking that YKZ could be scum after this is so so so so so wrong. And stupid.
-Snickers, just do whatever YKZ tells you to. Your logic sucks but thats something we can take in postgame.
-Koshi/Release is the next lynch. Maybe SlOosh if he really fucks over.
-Chezinu and Snickers town.
Why Release? The fact that Release simply did nothing is also telling I'd say. No matter how much scum you think I am, there is still a point in keeping up the work. It seemed like SlOosh even wanted to apear contributing by pushing me when it was obvious I was getting lynched. I said numerous times that I was cool with dying. I was giving out reads and asked them to ask question but Release just didn't give a fuck at all. He didn't ask questions, let me speak, etc. He just wanted me to flip so he could get to lylo.
@YKZ: I mean, I would like to believe that about Koshi. But he could just be bad town. Like I said, I don't really know Koshi's meta but I really think you should check him. Does he generally play like this, ie super defending and passive? Or is he actually good? Also, while Koshi is lurking SlOosh and Release seems to be trying to contribute but in reality just tunnel. I still think Release is just as scummy as Koshi.
He's the best lynch for tomorrow+ Show Spoiler +
@ All Systems Green
"I'll admit..."
Makes sense under the assumption that I'm mafia but if anyone has any hesitations about that (you say SloOsh could be scum, yet you've stated repeatedly that Koshi and I are mafia, others may have different reasons to doubt it), then lynching me because you would gain the most information IF I'm mafia is ill-advised since this is LYLO and should instead just vote for most suspicious mafia read.
"Do you see..."
There need not necessarily be "at least one scum amongst Koshi/Release." Because Chez is not modconfirmed town, there is the slightest possibility that he is in a team w/ YKZ or Sloosh (albeit, I highly doubt this is the case).
A note about the green checks:
The green checks are not gospel. As we know, a framer and/or godfather may exist. For all we know, your intractable day 1 attack on 27nb could have been to lynch a town, while drawing the detective check, knowing that framer (not necessarily you) or your GF role would return green to cop. The checks are guides, but view them with scrutiny.
@VCA
Day 1:
I voted for the person whom I thought was scum. At the time, I did not believe either 27nb or Mderg was as suspicious as YKZ. If that is not convincing enough, I will iterate this again: An inconsequential vote is not alignment indicative.
Day 2:
As I have mentioned multiple times, I have been willing to let you live in light of the fact that you produced useful discussion. Assuming that I suspect two persons of being mafia, and one produced useful discussion, I will lynch the other. In this case YKZ produced useful information, and Mderg didn't so voted mderg. The opportunistic vote was what caused mderg to be suspect.
next paragraph:
speculation blah blah blah
---------------------LM time--------
@my attack on YKZ:
Again, I have to explain myself multiple times:
It's not that YKZ was wrong, it's that he refused to acknowledge others' corrections to his play. 27nb and I addressed multiple times that the VT claim is not the reason for 27nb's vote, yet he insisted that it was. In addition to that, his only defense for the day was "I am better than you" "Kenpachi rule is god" and "if I were mafia, I wouldn't do this" all of which can be said by mafia. Alone these are just useless, but the uselessness indicates the lack of an actual defense which implies mafia. Read his day 1 filter until you can see this.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2014 10:48 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 06:31 Release wrote:Foreword: If you paid attention to my case any other time, read after "Why stop there:" On June 21 2014 02:48 Snickers wrote:On June 20 2014 23:43 Koshi wrote:On June 20 2014 22:54 Lazermonkey wrote:
I'm busy today as well but will hopefully at least be able to post during the lynch. I don't really get the BH wagon yet though. Well, I do get it but I don't get how people would rather vote for BH than they would vote for VE or Koshi.
Untill his reason vote he didn't have a single scum read what so ever. And it IS very convinient that he votes that number 1 lynchbait... I am voting for the only person who has a case made against him. Two even. Do you disagree with the cases? I don't so I vote Mderg. What do you mean with you don't understand why people are voting BH? BH pushed bunnies like a mofo and then disappeared, only to come back do nothing and taunt everybody, so he got votes. I am only doing the do nothing part, so I got less votes than BH. Now that BH did something everybody should comment on that. Is the case legit or is it not? For me the case is very legit and well made so I am ok with BH. Somewhere I should look at the meta of BH in djinn game and in Ver game because he tunneled town D1 in both those games. I will do that later. Voting me is pretty boring btw. I pinkysweared I was town when I entered the game. That should be enough. On top of that I am voting for the best cases in the thread, I am not pushing my own agenda in the thread, and I do not hide any of my reasoning from the thread. I already told you people to look at the people who didn't vote Mderg D1. Scum never votes together. It simply doesn't happen ever. If I had to guess I would say Snickers is the scummer between the 4 but he is on Mderg ass since D1 so meh. Snickers hasn't been answering any of my questions and is just ignoring everything and pushing Release/Mderg.
But I am not pushing anything this game. People that lie frequently. 1.Koshi
2.ReleasePeople that play this game annoyingly (regardless of alignment most likely) 1.YKZ 2.ChezinuMderg do you have a question. My filter will answer it for you. Also funny how i commented on Release's whole "case" on me and he still "thinks" i did not. Do not think it is a case since he summarizes stuff and does not quote. Also lets see who is the first to find out that YKZ's case on mderg is repeating what me and another person said. Then he completely takes the post i quoted and says the exact same thing. He even says he is sure somebody said this. You ask and I guess you will receive. (It is a case. A summary of mafia play means mafia play was there). At the beginning of the game, he casts suspsicion on 27nb following YKZ, supports the Kenpachi rule and encourages further discussion of it.+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts This is already well into the day and YKZ has detailed his application of the kenpachi rule. Despite initially disliking the use of the Kenpachi rule + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. he now claims that it has merit. Bandwagon play. 27nb dismisses the reasoning for the Kenpachi (which again is the mention of VT; I'm pretty certain incorrect). Misrep. of information by Snickers. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum. I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. Focuses to narrowly on the phrasing of game vs day. The idea of bunny's wish to survive to the end of the game is very clear. And he adds a completely wrong scietific interpretation of the Kenpachi rule, and supports the Kenpachi rule discussion which has caused nothing but havoc in the thread. Then he makes some slightly unclear buddy up to YKZ posts.The last quoted post does exactly that. Bad reasoning to support YKZ's incorrect claims. Let's also go back to this + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
in which he supports YKZ's towniness by saying that he would prefer to have a knowledgable player. Later claims that this was an unlikely outcome, but if that were the case, there would be no point in making a post like this. Therefore, I conclude that Snickers is lying and that the intention of this post is to half-defend but moreso align himself with the "towny" YKZ (from his perspective). Then he supports me, the he flipflops on me following a not so good case on me by artansis.+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
Appears to want a discussion with me. + Show Spoiler +On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. Claims I do not understand and that I twist his words, when I'm pretty sure I understood what he meant. He just doesn't want others to read his statements as mafia so he misrepresents his own ideas to make them appear town, when they are not. Misleading the town --> mafia agenda. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Artanis case OP. I disagreed with it and so did slo0sh. + Show Spoiler +On June 17 2014 02:17 Snickers wrote:
Ok I'm on a mobile phone ATM and will not have a proper keyboard 9 hours from now.
First off. 27nb i will try to be more clear in nine hours with examples. My overall feelings on you is this. You were being super confident but did not use all the smack talk available to you. Again I will try to be more clear later.
Somebody wanted to know my thoughts on release.
For awhile I started to think that neither he , 27nb or ykz was scum. I think 27nb is most likely town now.
I think release is actually scum. He has aligned himself with bunnies and defended her but I think she was not in need of defense . I do not see a reason to defend someone not in trouble unless u know they are town. I think release saw a good time to cause confusion while also looking extremly town. It is good to align with a town as scum as a future defense, right?
Some people think I am siding with YKZ. I do not think it is smart to be siding with someone so early unless u know his or her role. I would argue I was going after 27 nab rather than defending YKZ. Also i said he seems knowledgable.
I think he def still is because of his knowledge on the lenpachi rule. You guys have been saying his use of it was wrong but not his definition of it. Also he is bh which u guys know him so he has played a lot. It seems weird for a player that has played a lot to slip so early. ( I know it sounds life I'm defending him now) I think he is knowledgable regardless of his role.
His posts do seem weird tho. He adds on little joking phrases to the end of some posts. Also why create a smurf then show ur actual self. I think he was reacting strongly to something. Flip. Claims defending a suspected towny is scummy. What I had been doing was more attacking YKZ and defending 27nb as a corollary. I said even said that 27nb is not necessarily towny because I thought town 27nb would have made my points already. It should be noted that this post is made after Artanis OP case on me. (sequence: he says I have good post, artanis case, misleading response from snickers, snickers firm flip) He harps quite a bit on the "information" and blue talk even after I try multiple times to dissuade him from doing so.Read the thread. You should be able to find it. + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. On June 17 2014 11:50 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 08:25 Release wrote:On June 17 2014 03:00 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 02:39 Release wrote:
@Lazer (and everyone else): His actions alone are bad. The repetitiveness of the badness and refusal to change his play after being corrected manifest his mafia agenda. "blazinghand is stubborn, therefore he is mafia" and "blazinghand has scumslipped, therefore he is mafia" are both sentences that are like always super doops wrong. I certainly can be stubborn as mafia, but I'm always stubborn. And the scumslip thing, come on guys. I legit don't scumslip as scum, and scumslip all the time as town, ask like anyone who has played more than 2 games with me. Also, I'm just generally a stubborn bastard no matter what I roll; again, ask anyone who has played with me. I will say this though: although I don't particularly like that Release is all over me like a dog on a butt-flavored biscuit, I gotta give him credit: he IS all over me. He went through my filter and tried to find anything he could possibly construe as scummy and slapped it down in a big honkin filter dive case. Now, it's a big honkin WRONG filter drive case, but it's still a lot of effort. Maybe he was explicitly dodging Kenpachi Rule Extended, but he still gets mondo credit for putting in effort imo. Is release scummy for jumping in and just repeating what other people said? Eh, maybe. It's certainly a easy move for scum to make, but it's also worth noting that it's a move town would make. Suppose Release comes in and sees this horrible back and forth between me and 27nb, and for some weird reason becomes convinced I'm scum as a result. He wants to drop a vote on me, but also there's like no-one voting me, so he drops a hella big case. He does work, he does research. I give him credit for this, at least. Yes, it would have been good if he had an original idea, but if he didn't, he didn't. There's only so much to be said about me. Maybe you think he's scum because you think I'm scum and this is the most poorly executed bus ever, but really, 1) it would be a terrible way to do it, and 2) as SloOsh said (and he gets mucho townie points for this) you don't draw associative tells between unflipped players. Back onto the 27nb thing, Check it out. If you look at 27nb's filter, you see the initial push on me, and you see some interactions on me in places where I directly call out 27nb, but that's it as far as interactions with me. Check out some of the posts I made after the post that set off 27nb's "flag" so to speak about me being scummy: On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Also, your posts are giving me BH vibes.
Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl In this post i'm explicitly stating I'm not BH and trying to fake not being me. Even worse, I'm setting up the "bh claiming vt must be town" meme and I later "accidentally" reveal myself to be BH. If I were someone who thought YKZ was scum and saw this, I'd be all over it. I'd point out that it's awfully CONVENIENT to say that and then "accidentally" reveal yourself to be bh. I'd write a case, or at least a post, or heck, at least a SENTENCE, about this. Since I'm already suspicious of YKZ, since I supposedly have a scumread on YKZ, responding to this would be a NATURAL thing to do if I was town and voting YKZ. And yet, no response from 27nb (who was in thread at the time) next.. On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. Look at what I'm saying here. I'm literally admitting to lying to and deceiving the thread. I then say it's okay to lie and that the ends justify the means. Jesus christ on a stick with a cherry on top, how do you not flip out over this if you're town and think I'm scum? You'd be like "look, BH is obviously willing to lie. He was trying to pretend to be someone else while smurfing, which is a CLASSIC BH move when smurfing as scum. He even admits it, right here, in an attempt to defuse the situation. You can't let this slide guys, this is proof BH is scum" anyone who thinks I'm suspicious and has a vote on me, after reading that I admit to lying and trying to decieve the thread, would be ALL OVER this post. You want to know how 27nb responds, though? Here, I'll show you. On June 16 2014 11:39 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is. You are soooooo wrong on me. It's super bad. And tbh, idc what you think of yourself, but you haven't impressed me ass the "best" in TL Mafia. I caught your mafia self d1. Get rekt! And as I said, Kenpachi rule is useless and stupid, and it will be highly disproved this game. I have no need to backtrack, and I had not backtracked anywhere. I'm going forward with this lynch and into the abyss you go! All 27nb sees is the part of the post directed at her. She argues about like backtracking or whatever, and says she's going forward with this lynch while literally ignoring possibly the most damning statement a player could make. If she was really town and really thought I was scum, at this point she'd say, not "blah blah kenpachi rule backtracking, your'e so bad and i'm so good", she'd say, "ah hah! Caught you in a lie, blazinghand, this is exactly what scum do!" You can see she's clearly not in a mindset of hunting scum, or hell, even actually PUSHING The wagon. She is putting on a big SHOW of pushing the wagon, but she's not actually doing it. She's not pointing out what I'm posting, or why I'm scum, just shouting about like one sentence in one post. She's not hunting scum. She's making noise. This is because she lacks the town mindset, the mindset that someone who really thought I was scum would have. Because 27nb is scum. vote her, for justice. @ first 4 paragraphs: The first sentence is again deliberate misrepresentation of the information that I have presented. Blazinghand is stubbornly wrong even when corrected and refuses to acknowledge corrections and is therefore mafia is the complete picture. This is the same misrepresentation of information he used earlier to cause chaos and it is used to cause chaos now. And the scumslip (which to my mind is the "more information") is NOT the reason that I think you are mafia. Please stop trying to twist information to suit your agenda. I do not merely repeat what has been said. I created a case on you with greater breadth and depth than 27nb did. And maybe you should pay more attention to what SloOsh is saying because he has asked useful questions when (mostly) you and 27nb have caused havoc in the thread. Now disregarding that, my case demonstrates that your logic in your play is incorrect. A proper defense is not to say "If I were scum, I would have..." because that is meaningless. Instead, you need to demonstrates that your logic is not incorrect. Otherwise, I think we should still construe YKZ's earlier posts as deliberate chaos. On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 01:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Boring, why so? And I know I'm town, so you think Release is more likely scum defending a town here? Or do you think it's scum defending a partner this early into the game? I'm thinking we're both town here. Though, i agree, he is basically just sayng everything I've already said. Boring because you both just kept repeating the same things but in different words and it wasn't going anywhere for me to get a read on either of you. I don't know your alignment and I'm not going to make an association between unflipped players. People did that in cell. You supported that as mafia. Why are you trying to create associations now? On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. This gives me a slight scumread on you. Wanting to be right is an easy reason to lean back on without actually saying anything. On June 17 2014 02:38 Release wrote:
Currently this is our only point of discussion, although your vote on me now introduces a discussion about me.
wordy words Boring. You could've introduced a discussion about anyone that had an opinion on the case for bullshit reasons. You also keep repeating yourself in the post as well. If you want me to actually read your posts thoroughly, be more to the point. I'm not interested in your description of what you provided and what you want. It won't help me get a more accurate read on you. On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. I "repeat" myself because YKZ makes similar chaotic plays with the same agenda. I rehashed some of the dispute because I wanted to provide a complete argument as to why YKZ is mafia and I want to be specific about my references. On June 17 2014 03:19 Lazermonkey wrote:@Release: I'm sorry, I missread your post a little bit. Your argument is actually quite different from Bunnies. I do, however, still fail to understand how YKZ actions make him scum. Your argument seems like WIFOM to me. It's like you assume that YKZ is already scum and then try to justify his actions from that point of you. Have you even considered YKZ's actions from a town PoV? Assuming that he is trying to create chaos by missinterpreting Bunnies is a big leap of faith. I also do think that there is merit to the Kenpachi rule in this case. Even if Bunnies said nummerous times that the VT claim wasn't the reason she voted for YKZ, she still pointed out two times: On June 16 2014 09:42 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? Awwwww, how rude. Don't you know you are supposed to talk to a person when they are talking to you? Also-she. And Why right off the bat claim vt? On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:45 slOosh wrote:
Bunnies (ninja? 27?), who is smurf and why should we lynch him? YKZ is smurf. And at first, I just put him on the list to get conversation going. I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. Looking at these two posts, you get the impression that Bunnies is indeed suspicious of YKZ because of the claim. Bunnies later on refutes this by saying that her suspicion of YKZ had nothing to do with the VT claim, HOWEVER: On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? This post has no substance. And why would you talk down to bunny about him having limited information? Do you have less limited information? Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded. He says I have limited information. How would he know that I am town? Well, if he was mafia he would know that I am town. So ##Vote: YKZ Note the bolded part. It doesn't say "look, this is a really scummy thing YKZ said", it says "look, this is another point I don't like". If she didn't care about him claiming VT, why say that it was another part she didn't like? If there is something that I find null in someones filter I don't say "Hey, this is wierd". I just don't say a thing about it. And the thing is that Bunnies doesn't say anything about this untill YKZ votes her with because of the Kenpachi rule. It is therefore impossible for us to know whether she is talking the truth or not about not caring about the VT thing. Her actions in the thread does, however, indicate that this was something she cared about. Which makes me belive that all this was just a massive backpaddle by Bunnies after she got caught doing scummy stuff. ##Vote: 27ninjabunnies Here is a very concise argument train of thought for you: YKZ claims vt 27 questions claim and in a SEPARATE post votes for "limited information" YKZ repeatedly claims that the vote is for the "vt" claim (incorrect/bad play, currently not particularly indicative of alignment) 27 states the vote is not for the claim, but for the "limited information" (lots of back and forth) but ultimately, YKZ insists that 27 is scum because of vote due to her vote due to vt claim (incorrect again while being corrected). here we consider: if YKZ were town, he would recognize his mistake and reevaluate the situation, and conclude that he was incorrect and therefore 27 is not mafia, and YKZ should unvote. However, YKZ doesn't and, therefore, YKZ has made a conscious choice to ignore corrections to his play, which is indicative of mafia. --------------------------------------- But you should consider the magnitude of the reasoning. You are correct in sayi ng that "another" implies the vt is relevant. However, the next two sentences and the vote form an independently logical sequence of events (and the vt claim alone did not procure a vote). This implies that "limited information" is the main reason for the vote. Care about it? somewhat. Enough to merit use of Kenpachi rule? doubt it. On June 17 2014 03:22 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 17 2014 03:13 slOosh wrote:Hmm, not quite feeling the flaming spears of logic and justice yet. On June 16 2014 12:46 slOosh wrote:
I can see a somewhat reasonable case to be made that bunnies is not a stellar townie, but I don't see the case being made that she must be scum. Why isn't she "bad" town? I think my most recent post demonstrates that 27nb's attention is drawn towards statements about her, rather than incriminating things I say-- even a bad townie would naturally respond to me saying things like "I lied to decieve town because I thought I could get away with it", whereas scum regardless of badness would naturally respond to me saying kenpachi rule but NOT respond to additional evidence. It's not a matter of skill, it's a matter of mindset. A townie, even a new townie (I remember being one), when thyey have a scumread on someone and that person does something really scummy, they RESPOND to it. they add it to their case. It's the natural thought process of a town player REGARDLESS of skill. 27nb is not showing this natural thought process. Look at her responses to my posts. Is she responding to things I say that are scummy or inconsistent and pointing out their inconsistency? Or is she just shouting about my first post whenever she gets the chance, and not actually trying to convince people to lynch me based on new evidence that emerges? A townie who was really tunnelled on me would LOVE to point out new scummy things I say, because he's still trying to formulate and develop a case. 27nb is always talking about me, sure, but look at WHAT she's responding to. Not the stuff a townie would. This is always your argument. 'Not one specific town agenda and therefore mafia." There are multiple ways to play town (since you clearly claim to enjoy pretending to scumslip and most others do not). On June 17 2014 03:48 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:40 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:33 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 17 2014 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 17 2014 03:21 slOosh wrote:
Lazermonkey, what is the "scummy stuff" that bunnies is backpedaling from? The quick version: 1. Bunnies says that YKZ's VT claim is wierd and that she doesn't like it. 2. Bunnies says that ANOTHER thing the she doesn't like about YKZ is his "scum slip". Bunnes votes for YKZ. 3. YKZ votes Bunnies because Kenpachi rule. 4. Bunnies claims that the VT claim wasn't a reason she voted YKZ. 4. It wasn't the MAIN reason I voted YKZ. Okay, I'm not really interested in discussing this further with you. My goal isn't to make you confess in the thread. Its to convince the others. It is basically that it is impossible for us to know that what you are claiming is true or not. Based on what you wrote earlier I do find it more likely that you are scum than that you are town though. Understandable: also ##UnvoteI know this is not going to get votes off of me, and I'm fine with that. But YKZ's last few posts have been a bit towny, especially his read on Artansis. I'm starting to worry we are two town fighting. I also don't want my judgement clouded by my vote on YKZ and would like to hear more from other people. His posting has mostly been to say that town (a very specific town) would have done X but did Y and therefore mafia. Do you guys agree with this kind of arguement? Because I certainly do not. I urge you to reconsider you unvote on YKZ. On June 17 2014 07:05 goodkarma wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? Hmm? How does it make him scum? On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. Where's the inconsistency? Leaning may not be indicative of degree of conviction, but merely the direction of it. On June 17 2014 01:45 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 22:45 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so? I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014: "As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies." And yet he ends this same post: "I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ." Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post. You have a point here I really like. Which makes me wonder if scum defending a town here. He's not even considering in what YKZ could or could not do. But then if that's the case, and Release is scum, then YKZ is town, and I don't like that. I really really want to be right that YKZ is scum. You are starting to make associations here and I don't think that's a good idea. Focus on them as individuals. I'm not really sure what else to say here except that there's a large variance of degrees. How I see it, you have release saying "I'm leaning YKZ scum" on first quote and saying "I am unequivocally convinced YKZ is scum" on second one. Release has since posted something in disagreement, but this is what I see when looking at that post. What's more, when would town ever say "...what needs to be said to incriminate..."? That's some super-scummy wording. Town looks to determine who's scum, not to make someone look like scum. Further, when thinking back on my own games the way Release has posted is almost exactly how I handled my first mafia game. I posted a huge case on an easy target then AFK'ed, only posting when I felt I had to. Looking at a few of his past games (when he was town), he had a much easier to follow flow with his posts. Every post in this game feels very calculated, and given how I personally liked to post in previous games as scum, it's easy for me to see how as an insecure newbie scum he would feel inclined to stack as much together as he could into a few very carefully planted posts. Incriminate: " To cause to appear guilty of a crime or fault; implicate" I believe that YKZ is guilty of a crime of fault, but others do not share that opinion with me. Therefore, it is my duty to convince others (you) of his guilt by causing him to appear to be guilty. I see nothing wrong with the use of the word. It is an apt choice. (would you have preferred implicate? same meaning) OP says to reduce spam / one-liners and I play the game fitfully (about an hour each time). On June 17 2014 07:29 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 17 2014 04:46 slOosh wrote:Yea I so I think Artanis is scum. On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release Here is his first post, top of page 8. There are many unnatural things about this post. First is his complaining tone. We are only 5 pages in, and yet he calls it all "bullshit". It's totally out of place and unnatural. Then he moves away from it and blames Release. Two things here. One is that he does nothing to either comment on, or figure out said "bullshit". No reads or questions on either YKZ / 27nb. Nothing to try to figure either one out. Just a straight up dismissal of the whole thing, and moving on to someone else. Next is how he blames Release for it all. When I press him on this issue: On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. Nothing but fluff. He doesn't offer any meaningful reason why Release is scum. Look at the backpedaling. "oh yea I guess he added content. I could argue that wordiness isn't alignment null but I won't". He doesn't really care to convince me or others why he finds Release scum. He just wants to put his vote somewhere to look like he is contributing. He dodges the question the first time around so I ask him again: On June 17 2014 03:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 03:17 slOosh wrote:On June 17 2014 03:11 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 17 2014 02:38 slOosh wrote:On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I'm sorry, how is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He hasn't rehashed anything, it's original content and wordiness is alignment null. Release made a giant post about stuff that was really boring so I didn't get very far in it. The first part is definitely rehash. You're right in that he did add some original content afterwards though. Wordiness being alignment null is debatable but that debate wouldn't go anywhere so let's agree to disagree on that. How is Release the perpetrator if it started as a spat between YKZ and 27nb? He's the perpetrator of the conversation continuing about that specific topic. Ridiculous. Release is trying to make sense of the debacle, and Artanis is overexaggerating, blaming him for "perpetrating" this "bullshit", while making no effort to either figure out the YKZ / bunnies thing himself, nor make clear how Release is scum for it. Just vague handwaving and avoiding the biggest discussion topic at the time. Artanis is unnatural, Artanis is apathetic, Artanis is scum. ##Vote Artanis[Xp] I think this post makes slOosh scum. DETAILS AT ELEVEN!!! Really? Because he has been the one asking clarifying questions, obviously with a purpose behind them. That fits townie agenda of forwarding the game in my book. Currently, I feel confident in SloOsh and Lazer as town for candid presentation of information and quetions. I feel that 27nb is town but to a lesser extent. I feel confident in YKZ as mafia. I have 100% corrected you and you did not respond to me at all. You had two main points in your first post. 1. Bunnies connection with YKZ's VT claim. 2. "limited information". I questioned you about the VT claim and even after going back to check yourself you still reported false information. Then i said you were still wrong and you still have not responding. You are not even following your own guidelines to not look like scum. Also this "limited information" this has a detail we all missed. I have never read anywhere in the rules where you have to read your role pm before starting play. Obviously u should (have to?) before day one ends. So we all had "equal info" unless we assume someone has read his role pm. It seems like a weird tactic but i still believe this "limited information" thing has very little value. So one of the two things your first post was based on was just wrong and you still did not correct it. The other thing has very little value in my opinion. I am leaning pretty hard to vote for you. Especially when two people have posted how your post had such a great timing. Also i would really like to hear from oats and hear more for the world cup watcher. Also Chezinu's encryption is a hassle. On June 17 2014 12:23 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 00:13 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that. I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now. 1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post. 2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this. "no one has any information except for the mafia," Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists. Also we all have information through the posts. 4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody. 5. I still do not understand this speculation idea. I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark. you never responded to this post. Also you seem to not understand the fact that pr have more info than VT. Also you keep highlighting the same thing i did but have you read what i wrote right after that. On June 17 2014 12:54 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 12:44 Release wrote:
Not on day 1 and there is no point in talking about it on day 1.
I read it and it does not excuse illogical play. Regardless of 0/1/2 of 2 scum, you wish does not affect their roles. You soft retract your statement by saying it's a bad reason, but why say it in the first place if that is the case? ok start quoting because i have no clue what "it" is. It is a bad reason why? because we had such little information at the time. I was providing the most detail i could of why i thought 27nb was scum. It was a "long shot" but it still gave me another reason to. I do not understand two thirds of your above post. Why would I not say a bad reason. By bad reason i meant the game was probably going to end up with a lot better reasons for a scum. I am voting you know. I already showed multiple reasons why. ##Vote Release And admit that you are wrong about information. PR has more information than VT. This is a semi open game. PR know if his role exists. VT does not know if any or what PR exists. PR does not know if even one VT exists?(Do not know if this is 100% right because i am new) VT knows at least one VT exists. Both said VT and PR know there is three mafia. Knowing there is a pr is more info than knowing there is a VT. On June 17 2014 13:17 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2014 13:05 Release wrote:
If you read the original situation in which the information is said, the information relates to 27nb calling out 3 purported mafia and YKZ saying she has less information. It pertains to knowing who and who isn't mafia, and in this case, VT and PR are equally informed (since it is day 1). Knowing there is a pr does not in any way help call out 3 mafia. Therefore it is the same and we should stop talking about PRs. limited does not equal less. Also you do have a point with at the very start of the game PR and VT have the same chance of randomly guessing mafia. But even on day one it could matter. If u were a cop and somebody claimed cop... for example. Show nested quote +On June 24 2014 07:00 Release wrote:
"If we assume that Koshi is town, how could you justify his actions?"
"If we assume that Koshi is town, how could you justify his actions?"
same game? Show nested quote +On June 25 2014 08:48 Release wrote:
I said SloOsh is town, and I stand by that statement. Ya Know, Let's have some Fun Art! *cries* This is for you man!!! ##Unvote
##Vote Release
If my attack on Snickers is the point of this:
Assuming that snickers is town (which in hindsight, he is), he "thinks aloud" quite frequently and proposes multiple somewhat contradictory scenarios in the same posts. His "blue talk" was that he knew that a detective existed (why he wanted to talk about it, I'll only know in the post game). I dropped snickers as mafia suspicion when I formed the VE/Lazer/YKZ mafia circle.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2014 16:15 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2014 16:03 slOosh wrote:
So you are saying Koshi is the last scum? Why the switch to Release all of a sudden after going on about Koshi? Show nested quote +On June 28 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote:Preamble - Throwning downLook guys, there are a lot of things that could have gone down with night actions, and maybe it's possible Sloosh is the GF or he was a scum player who was framed, or some other weird set of circumstances (snickers insane and LM and I were framed, etc). But when it comes down to it, we should not be lynching into green checks today. We shouldn't have lynched into green checks tomorrow. Assuming there's no cc for snickers (and at this point, I'd be pretty surprised if there was, and suspicious of any cc of snickers), we should not lynch into his green checks today, and we shouldn't lync snicks. I've decided we should lynch Release over Koshi, for reasons I'll explain later in this post. It looks like during the night people (including people who thought I was scum defending scum LM...) have decided I am scum and want to lynch me. Here's what I gotta say to anyone who seriously wants to lynch me: You're welcome to try. You will fail. I'm better than you; I'm more convincing, I'm more experienced, I'm one of the best players on TL Mafia, and this is LYLO. I won't lie down and say "well, treat me as conftown after I flip" because if I flip, it's game over. The fact of the matter is, I'm an extremely convincing player, and I'm only MORE convincing when I can use real facts to defend myself and accuse my enemies.
Chapter 1 - All Systems GreenFirst off, here are reasons not to lynch me or sloosh tomorrow (assuming snicks gets shot, which he will). Imagine for a moment, you're not in this game, but you're observing it. It's D4, and the cop reveals 3 green checks. For some reason, the entire game decides to lynch one of his green checks, and one of his other green checks hard defends the other one to the point that people start thinking the 2nd guy is scum too. The first guy flips scum, and D5 the cop is dead and people want to lynch the 2nd greencheck now. If you saw town systematically lynching through the greenchecks of the flipped cop, your first thought would be "wat". Your second thought would be "man, I wonder what these guys are thinking. There's no way I could possibly be so awful when I play this game". The fact of the matter is, if you lynch me, you will be that town who decided the best pool of people to lynch into on D4 and D5 LYLO was the pool of people the cop got green on. You will never live it down. In retrospect, lynching VE was a mistake for a number of reasons, but the biggest of them was that despite being pigheaded, strident, and generally disagreeable and ragey, VE is in fact highly intelligent. Sure, he didn't like LM, but I am sure if he were alive his advice wouldn't be "let's systematically lynch the greenchecks" because honestly that plan is awful. "Now wait, Blazinghand", you say, "I'm not saying we should lynch all the greenchecks. I'm just saying that yesterday we needed to lynch LM because he was scummy, and you were scummy for defendhing him, your scumbuddy. Now, he flipped town, so you're scummy for defending someone who was lynched and flipped town. You HAPPEN to have a greencheck on you, but that won't stop us from lynching you." Ok, look, you can have whatever reason you want for systematically lynching through the greenchecks. Maybe you think Snickers is insane, which is possible. But boy, after the first one flips green, you should probably stop and think "maybe, just maybe, we're totally wrong about this thing. Maybe it's actually a bad idea to do this." I'll admit, on some level I want to lynch slOosh. He could be scum. But the fact of the matter is, there's a green check on him. If it comes down to it, we can deal with him in 3-player LYLO after lynching his buddy. If release flips GF, then we can be assured that both Sloosh and I are town, since this game is exceedingly unlikely to have both GF *and* Framer (since cop would be effectively useless, and anti-role, then). If release flips Framer, then we can cast doubt on the green checks for reasons related to him potentially framing me or Sloosh as scum. If Release flips Goon, then the last scum is either GF or Framer and we also probably can't trust the checks. Do you see what I'm getting at here? Unless you believe in a BH/Sloosh scumteam, there's at least one scum amongst Koshi/Release, and if we lynch that scum first (similar odds there), then we can go into LYLO potentially with tons of info. Our odds aren't worse, and they're potentially much, much better. I'd like to point out the non-trivial chance that Me and Sloosh are both town and the green checks (which so far have been 100% accurate) are accurate on us. Don't lynch into the green checks tomorrow. At the endgame, you know what's gonna happen, right? VE will be in here and say "wow, BH is such an idiot for lynching me, because without me there was nobody to tell town not to be idiotic. somehow you jubjubs lynched only into the cop's green checks? Are you kidding me? And BH, you talk about how "pro" you are at mafia but you and one of your top townreads got lynched while you had green checks on you. I can't believe this." And he'll be right, too. As the only experienced, intelligent player here, it's my job to lead the town. I failed yesterday, but I won't fail today.
Intermezzo - my townreads Snickers: we all know snickers is town unless cced so we're not lynching him, ever. Sloosh: although the VCA wiggles its eyebrows suggestively, there's a greencheck on this guy. Also, despite whatever uselessness he does, I feel like his awfulness is distinct enough he's likely to be town. Also, that little VCA chart thing impressed me. Sloosh is in zero danger of being lynched. If he's scum, he doesn't need to post a freakin VCA chart, all he has to do is yell that I'm scum (as he had been doing for days...) and hang out and post a tiny bit. Mostly though it's the green check. Chezinu: as a matter of principle I don't try to make reads on chez and just treat him as town. If I'm the cop, I check him. The fact that snickers never checked chezinu but instead checked like sloosh, is frankly awful. If our blues misplay and fail to shoot or check chezinu all game, I'm willing to accept a loss any time he rolls scum. I don't even want to policy this guy ever because honestly there are bigger fish. I will not lynch chezinu unless someone claims a scum check on him, or it's like 2-1 lylo and there's a conftown, and it's me vs chez or something like that where I know he's scum.
Chapter Two - Vote Count AnalSloosh, like the reliable greencheck he is, provided a color-coded VCA chart for us. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22454200The Day 1 lynch is pretty straightforward. 7 votes on 27nb, 3 on mderg, 1 on me. Snickers we can consider town because of his cop claim, so we have to ask ourselves: Did all scum unnecessarily vote together on 27nb? Sure, I was pushing that wagon all day and maybe mderg hopped one arly ish, but if the third scum is Chez, Koshi, or Sloosh, they really did NOT have to be on 27nb to save snickers. no, in my opinion the 7-4-1 result indicates a wagon that did not need all 3 scum to be on it. Even in the event of all 3 scum being on 27nb, I expect at least one scum to not commit to lynching a VT over his buddy when it's so lopsided and jump off. Since everyone on mderg is town, we can reasonably expect Release to be scum from D1 VCA. Looking at the D2 wagon, I see two possibilties. Since it would have been trivial for Koshi, Release, or Chez to jump on to me (maybe not in terms of explanation, but that 1 vote would have swung it even without LM voting), I immediatley wonder if sloosh and snickers were somehow scum and voted together with mderg to try to save him. That being said, Snickers is town and there's a greencheck against sloosh. If I were scum going into D2 I'd want to bus mderg, as he was the counterwagon to a D1 wagon on a VT, and was pretty close in the running. None of the people who voted mderg D1 are dead during D2, except of course 27nb, so you can expect him to at least be a candidate D2. So who was added to the mderg wagon, who voted mderg D2 and not D1, who might have been scum looking for a chance to bus? Well, I see Release and Koshi on that wagon, which again lines up with what I said in the preamble. These guys saw an opportunity to bus a goon and went for it. This is exceptionally true for Release. Release voted me D1, when I wasn't a legit wagon, instead of mderg, who was. On D2, you see Release voting mderg, instead of me, the guy he wanted to lynch D1. Remember, during D1 27nb had not yet flipped town, so during D2 Release should have been more suspicious of me. Yet he moves his vote to mderg, who is probably on the way out as the counterwagon to 27nb D1. In my opinion, this discrepancy in voting indicates that Release's motivations are not thought through from a perspective of "I want to lynch YKZ" but "I want to lynch mderg, but only when it's clear he's going to be lynched". The only part that doesn't fit for me is why Release wouldn't swap over to me, given that he voted me D2. I really think he'd take the opportunity to save his teammate and look consistent with his D1 play. Still, There were SOME shenannies around the deadline, but he must have known mderg would vote me. The evidence of the green check by snickers on sloosh is bigger imo than the evidence of "scum on the mderg wagon could have swapped". Perhaps it would look too bad to swap from a scum wagon to a town wagon late in the day, and they figured mderg was going down eventually anyways. D3 and D4 were both pretty onesided. To all of you who voted for LM D4, it's worth noting that Artanis and VE, whose votes couldn't swing the wagon anyways during D3, ended up voting Koshi over LM, yet somehow we ended up lynching LM who had a greencheck on him ._.
Coda - From Beyond the GraveDue to VCA from D1, I believe Release to be a better target for today's lynch than Koshi. However, I would like to bring in some support from Lazermonkey, who I think we can all agree is town (I assume; a green check wouldn't convince you "players" (I use the term generously) that he was town, perhaps a townflip from the mod may not). Here, briefly, is LM's case on Release, supplemented with my own words I've encorporated phrases from the following posts, to make one hybrid case. I find Snickers fake-claiming unlikely. Partly because of what YKZ pointed out earlier and partly why would you claim to have a town read on me at this state of the game as scum?
Chez and Snickers are likely town (and also are the guys that will get shot, thus wasting lynches on them is bad). SlOosh I dislike but his green check means that he is likely town. This leaves Release and Koshi. On June 27 2014 06:25 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 05:49 Snickers wrote:
Release is starting to look scummy again. Someone mentions his name, bam he's in the thread. Because it feels like I make a post then everyone ignores it (and therefore my posts are meaningless). When someone mentions my name, they want my opinion and therefore my posts are not meaningless. Interpret that however you please. Pretty much YKZ's D1 is what makes him scum. Because when the thread is filled with tunneling, OMGUS, and is primarily focused on a single battle, asking questions leads us to consider other options. I agree that his passiveness is noteworthy, but even with that, I do not think that it outweighs what I perceive to be his information-gathering agenda. + Show Spoiler +having said that, if he says absolutely nothing until the end of the day and you do flip town, that would make me feel that he is suspicious to similar levels as that which I felt about Snickers D2 (which in hindsight was just timing issues). Afk complete peace out is not tolerable, even more so than 48 hour dinner since YKZ actually did something prior to D2 deadline First part seems like you are justifying the fact that you aren't giving out reads in a very bad way. That is at least how I interpret it.
So basically, YKZ being wrong=>YKZ is scum. Do you really believe this logic yourself. Also, have you even considered what he has done since then?`He was the fucking dude that got mderg lynched.
Are you not reading or refusing to understand? I never said that asking questions and such was bad. It seems like you're really stretching to give a scumread and not be helpful and at the same time call other people scum. Look at it this way: If you were town, you' dbe willing to play the game. Yet here you are, stonewalling my precious time left alive.
Now that Chezinu has unclaimed... Chezinu fake-claimed so I don't have a red check on myself. Therefore, you should unvote me. The list for people that we are allowed to chose from (to kill) is
-Release
-Koshi
These guys are most likely the scum.
On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God"
Yhea, getting people lycnhed is totally not something town would want to do.. Owait. This push on YKZ is awful. That's just how the guy plays, he wants to lynch his targets. We all do, youc an't call him scum for that. bad reasoning. You're scum.
Looks like I won't live.
I'm honestly pretty sad right now. I know that there are 2 scum on my wagon but it also means that there are 3 dumb townies on my wagon as well.
As for my wills:
-Anyone thinking that YKZ could be scum after this is so so so so so wrong. And stupid.
-Snickers, just do whatever YKZ tells you to. Your logic sucks but thats something we can take in postgame.
-Koshi/Release is the next lynch. Maybe SlOosh if he really fucks over.
-Chezinu and Snickers town.
Why Release? The fact that Release simply did nothing is also telling I'd say. No matter how much scum you think I am, there is still a point in keeping up the work. It seemed like SlOosh even wanted to apear contributing by pushing me when it was obvious I was getting lynched. I said numerous times that I was cool with dying. I was giving out reads and asked them to ask question but Release just didn't give a fuck at all. He didn't ask questions, let me speak, etc. He just wanted me to flip so he could get to lylo.
@YKZ: I mean, I would like to believe that about Koshi. But he could just be bad town. Like I said, I don't really know Koshi's meta but I really think you should check him. Does he generally play like this, ie super defending and passive? Or is he actually good? Also, while Koshi is lurking SlOosh and Release seems to be trying to contribute but in reality just tunnel. I still think Release is just as scummy as Koshi.
He's the best lynch for tomorrow+ Show Spoiler + But, to be more specific, because of Release' day 1 vote, and the swap from voting me D1 to voting mderg D2 in a mderg-vs-me race, when I should have looked worse D2 than I did D1. Remember what I did D2? I took a 48 hour dinner after lynching a townie. Not sure how this convinced Release, who was happy throwing away his vote on a non-wagon on me D1, to vote to lynch mderg over me. Obviously he pretended to be convinced by the case, but this reversal doesn't make sense. Although Koshi has been uniformly terrible and his actions during the VE/LM debacle are pretty awful, and he's been afk, it doesn't make sense to me that all 3 scum woudl vote 27nb D1, which means Release is more likely to be scum. I also ned to look over release' long back-and-forths with me throughout the VE lynch day, I wonder if they make sense from a town perspective. In any case, I'm not lynching into the green checks, and I'm not lynching Chez. The VCA for D1 and D2 and the words of LM that we know were town-motivated make me want to lynch Release. But hey, I've done nothing here but repeat the case I quoted. I recommend you check it out. Remember, Sloosh, if you think Chez is town, you need to convince him to vote me with you if you want to lynch scum-me. It's 3 town, 2 scum today. This means that all 3 town NEED to vote together to get a lynch. This also means that if you hear someone say something, there's like a 50% chance it's coming from scum. Tell me what I can say to clarify or help you. Also, please tell me the chief reasons you think I'm scum. I think you're town, I want to do everything I can to convince you that I too am town, because I *need* you. Unless all 3 of us vote together, we lose.
Addressed the voting this earlier.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 28 2014 18:21 YouKnowZhou wrote:
You don't address the most telling part of the Vount Count Analysis. If you think Release is town, then D1 all scum voted together for no reason (since the vote was 7-4). I do not find this likely. I think if 7-4 was entirely due to scum inteference (ie the townies voted 4-4) scum would not have shot GK, one of mderg's strongest defenders, N1. I think Release is scum for that reason. Please address this issue.
Also, I'm not done with you. Unless we vote together, it's over. This is true. You obviously understand this since you're talking to chez. But the fact of the matter is, you're lynching into green checks, again. This is patently awful play. When this game is over, some observer, or even the host, is going to ask what we were doing lynching the green checks.
Also, I know I was basically absent from the end of N1 to about halfway through D2, but this is because my nephew had an epileptic seizure. The kid has epilipsy, but hasn't had an episode for a couple years. the doctors were ramping down his dosage and he seized overnight, and my brother was in Chico. my dad called the doctor while I stayed with him and we took him to the neurologist, and basically didn't have time to actually be at the computer. I wish I did, but all I had was my phone, so I basically just made flippant remarks to ease the stress. There, is that better? That's the reason I randomly disappeared for 48 hours. My fucking loser brother can't hold down a job and can't even keep custody of his kid who has special needs, so sometimes I gotta clean up after messes that aren't mine.
So there, I did what all you idiots do, which is talk about IRL things. Is this better than Dinner? Is this more convincing? No, you don't give a shit. none of the IRL things matter. I was away for 48 hours, but that was then, and this is now. when my life was on the line, I contributed. When VE was being lynched, I contributed. And when EVERYONE was wrong (or scum) and pushing LM, I was there to try to make the best of it. It doesn't matter if I was eating a long long dinner or if my nephew needed someone to take care of him during a medical emergency. all that matters is how I played before, and how I played after.
I played for the town.
Everything I've done this game, I've done to foster a good environment. I've kept less active people involved. I've forced people to give opinions when they were quiet. I've driven most of the lynches and god damn it, everyone knows my reads and where I stand. yeah, it's easy for me to look bad because i'm outspoken, because I don't hide or vascillate or waffle. I'm here to talk and I push my reads, because that's what I do. I was wrong, twice-- on 27nb and VE. But I was also right twice, on mderg and on LM. And when I was right OR wrong, I made sure the thread stayed active. When I thought I'd die D2, I tried to leave behind reads and engage the thread.
i've done everything I can to make this decision easy for you.
and gods be damned, I'm gonna make the best of this, too. sloosh, I stayed up 2 hours waiting for your reply so you better have replied to this post by the time I wake up.
Also I didn't read the vote by vote thing, I was just looking at your helpful vca diagram, i'm looking at what happened at the end of the day. and honestly it's worth noting that Release was on me D1, and NOT on me D2. you can't deny this.
And let's be real here, I play a good scum, but
1) everything I've done is pro town. most of this town's good atmosphere and environment is due to me and me alone
2) there's a freaking green check on me, just like there was on LM, and just like there is on you, sloosh.
3) i also play a good town. A damn good town. and you need to engage me and discuss with me and not say "roll credits" because you OWE it to me. You OWE it to me to talk to me and give me a chance to convince you. You're not 100% on me being scum, which means you have to admit it; you could be wrong.
which means we need to keep talking. If I'm scum, catch me. I'm good scum, as you say. Then read my games history and show how I'm like my scum games. If I'm town, that will show; and if I'm scum, that will show.
We're not done, sloosh. Respond to the Release vote on D1. Respond to what I say about myself. Respond to the green check. you KNOW it's wrong to go lynching down the list of green checks. you KNOW it. yes, I could be a gf or a framer who framed himself, sure. But maybe the scum pr is an rb (unlikely given the gk kill, but super common non-conseq doc + 1x cop setup). this would mean there's no cop-fooling role, which means you and I are town.
Chezinu understands this as well as I do. we gotta get our shit together. I've done everything I can to work for the town, and you've been tunnelled on me forever. I bet if LM flipped scum, you'd call e scum for it, and if he flipped town, youd' call me town for it. please, sloosh, THINK for a moment.
Are we appealing to emotion now? Is this where your "The ends justify the means?" Sounds like desperation for lack of better reasoning (but SloOsh's attack not mine, 48 hour dinner was fine to me in consideration of useful day 2 discussion)+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is.
That's besides the point though. D2 and D3, yes, you played a good town. You needed to in order to survive. But D4? No. You tried to work some magic in with twisting my words. You somehow managed to convince LM that I was tunneling you for being wrong instead of being stubborn and useless. The way that I see it, your play perfectly fits with check-manipulative role:
D1: Lynch townie horribly to lure detective check (green) --> won't get checked anymore
D2: Play as well as possible to survive ---> necessary to survive, one cop green check probably won't get the cop to out himself
D3: VE went down pretty easily. His reasoning was quite poor.
D4: one mislynch before LYLO. You construe everything I say in order to make me sound as candid mafia as possible:
At first:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 27 2014 08:11 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:08 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 08:03 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God" So when you were talking about Koshi as a third consideration over an LM/YKZ lynch if one of the two of us flips town, what you really meant was that you wanted to lynch LM first, then decide between me and koshi? Or am I misunderstanding your priorities here? Lynch whichever of you I thought was scummier. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped town, then decide between Koshi and the other. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped mafia, then lynch the other. it just so happens to be that "scummier" is LM today, and "the other" is by default, you (YKZ) Ok, I see what you're saying. I'm just confused because 2 hours ago you said this: Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 05:42 Release wrote:
Koshi is the mafia candidate outside you and YKZ that would become a lynch candidate if you or YKZ flip town. His play this game has not been particularly good (and at times absolutely useless). However, I still think that his play has been more meaningful than your's. But this makes sense. In your mind, you are thinking "I expect YKZ and LM to be scum together. A large amount of my scumread on them is an associative tell between unflipped players. If one of them flips town, my scumread on the other becomes weaker, more on par with my scumread on Koshi-- so I'll need to re-evaluate." Is that accurate?
but then a concession!
+ Show Spoiler +On June 27 2014 08:30 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:25 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 27 2014 08:24 slOosh wrote:
Snickers if Lazer flips town we can deal with it then. GG. Nice waste of 72 hours bro. Don't give up. Keep talking. Keep giving reads. We need to play on after you're dead. If you're town, don't be mad. be vigilant. Tell me something I acn use tomorrow; anything. Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:21 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 08:11 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 08:08 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 08:03 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God" So when you were talking about Koshi as a third consideration over an LM/YKZ lynch if one of the two of us flips town, what you really meant was that you wanted to lynch LM first, then decide between me and koshi? Or am I misunderstanding your priorities here? Lynch whichever of you I thought was scummier. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped town, then decide between Koshi and the other. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped mafia, then lynch the other. it just so happens to be that "scummier" is LM today, and "the other" is by default, you (YKZ) Ok, I see what you're saying. I'm just confused because 2 hours ago you said this: On June 27 2014 05:42 Release wrote:
Koshi is the mafia candidate outside you and YKZ that would become a lynch candidate if you or YKZ flip town. His play this game has not been particularly good (and at times absolutely useless). However, I still think that his play has been more meaningful than your's. But this makes sense. In your mind, you are thinking "I expect YKZ and LM to be scum together. A large amount of my scumread on them is an associative tell between unflipped players. If one of them flips town, my scumread on the other becomes weaker, more on par with my scumread on Koshi-- so I'll need to re-evaluate." Is that accurate? Not quite. It's not that my scumread on the other becomes weaker. It's the fact that there are 2 mafia left. It is stupid for me not to consider who the other mafia might be, therefore I must decide between the two remaining mafia. I think you might be reading too much into "I would probably lynch Koshi tomorrow." That is contingent upon his contributing nothing at the end of today and not doing anything tomorrow. Like I said: "(but of course I would have to consider his next day input)." Fair enough. Take a moment, if you would, to look at how Koshi and how LM have played today. Has LM tried to get basically anyone who's not him lynched? Yeah, but I can't blame him. But at least Koshi is giving reads. He wants town to go onw hen he dies. And Koshji? Koshi has done literally nothing but complain about possibly being lynched, defending himself, voting LM,a nd as asoon as it's clear his life is no longer in imminent danger, Koshi is GONE. He doesn't care about what happens. Yeah, he's probably REALLY actually watching soccer games and stuff, but look. The guy only defends himself and gets pissy about potentially getting lynched. Who here has been the better townie? The answer is LM. We should lynch Koshi today.
but then, an attack on the very post to which he conceded earlier! (unless you assume that he is not being sarcastic, which I'm pretty sure he is. Quite a flippant agreement with bad play otherwise)
+ Show Spoiler +On June 27 2014 08:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:Lm, you briefly voted Chez here: (link). Could you explain the reasoning behind your vote and your general read on chez? Since he's not the cop, we need to make sure we have a good read on him going into LYLO. What do you really think of him? Remember, as far as we know, Artanis saved this guy from a KP during N2. Show nested quote +On June 27 2014 08:21 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 08:11 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 08:08 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 08:03 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 27 2014 08:01 Release wrote:On June 27 2014 07:45 YouKnowZhou wrote:Release, you've said (link) multiple (link) times (link) over the past few days that you want to lynch one of me/lm first, then if that person flips town, lynch Koshi. Here's my question for you: If LM flips town, would you lynch me next or Koshi? What if LM flips scum? If these answers are different from each other, why? What about Koshi do you like that makes you not want to lynch him over LM? Right now we are 7 alive, with 2 scum. If we mislynch today we go into 3-2 lylo. If you have 3 scumreads and worried you might be wrong, and that 2 of them are town and 1 scum, the order you lynch them in matters a lot. So why are you eager to lynch me over Koshi today, but would reconsider if and only if LM flips town? I don't understand your thought process here. Please respond before the flip. At this point, since Koshi has not returned since the Korea Belgium game, and he is probably asleep (earlier than he has been in past days), his lack of input is more harmful as compared to you who is always around the deadline. I'd probably lynch Koshi first (but of course I would have to consider his next day input). Since the end of day 2, LM's play seems to be characteristic of try to get someone lynched (particularly SloOsh whom I thought was unreasonably thrown into his scumlist when Koshi questioned him, and when LM made his bigger post. You have been on my scumlist since Day 1. I thought that was awful play, and I still think it is awful play to ignore everyone and just hide behind "Kenpachi rule is God" So when you were talking about Koshi as a third consideration over an LM/YKZ lynch if one of the two of us flips town, what you really meant was that you wanted to lynch LM first, then decide between me and koshi? Or am I misunderstanding your priorities here? Lynch whichever of you I thought was scummier. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped town, then decide between Koshi and the other. If the lynch revealed that the lynch target flipped mafia, then lynch the other. it just so happens to be that "scummier" is LM today, and "the other" is by default, you (YKZ) Ok, I see what you're saying. I'm just confused because 2 hours ago you said this: On June 27 2014 05:42 Release wrote:
Koshi is the mafia candidate outside you and YKZ that would become a lynch candidate if you or YKZ flip town. His play this game has not been particularly good (and at times absolutely useless). However, I still think that his play has been more meaningful than your's. But this makes sense. In your mind, you are thinking "I expect YKZ and LM to be scum together. A large amount of my scumread on them is an associative tell between unflipped players. If one of them flips town, my scumread on the other becomes weaker, more on par with my scumread on Koshi-- so I'll need to re-evaluate." Is that accurate? Not quite. It's not that my scumread on the other becomes weaker. It's the fact that there are 2 mafia left. It is stupid for me not to consider who the other mafia might be, therefore I must decide between the two remaining mafia. I think you might be reading too much into "I would probably lynch Koshi tomorrow." That is contingent upon his contributing nothing at the end of today and not doing anything tomorrow. Like I said: "(but of course I would have to consider his next day input)." Ok, I understand. You're saying "I want to lynch one of YKZ/LM, but if we hit LYLO we need to reconsider everything and not fuck up". That makes total sense to me.
YKZ is mafia. If you're not convinced, go reread my case on him Day 1. The past doesn't change. His scumminess cannot be erased.
##Vote YKZ
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I guess I am speaking to Chez mostly at this moment. Koshi, if you want to bus YKZ, that would be fine too.
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Chez, how do you feel about YKZ?
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On June 30 2014 06:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:
Look Sloosh, the fact of the matter is, I was wrong on days 1 and 3, but I was right on 2 and 4. I was the only one who even put effort into trying to solve the game or push things forward on D4, and I have a green check from the confirmed cop. The fact that you're lynching me (and note, this is the 2nd green check we're lynching today) is simply awful. stop for a moment and take the outside view. It's the obs QT, and people are talking about what's going on. So far, town has lynched one of the green checks of the confirmed cop. Now they're lynching the 2nd green check. Everyone who has defended this guy is either dead or lynched (remember, BH's top strategy for nks besides shooting whoever looks towniest is shooting whoever wants to lynch him).
Now you can say that last bit is wifom, but trust me sloosh, if I were scum I'd have shot you long ago just to avoid situations like this. I'd probably have shot VE instead of trying to lynch him, and there's no way in hell I'd have shot chez, who lacks the leadership traits to really oppose me in thread. You have multiple times praised my scumplay and noted the various things I do as scum, but as scum I fucking shoot people who want to lynch me. Most people due stupid shit like hunt blues or try to wifom their shots. I pull no punches. I shoot anyone who wants to lynch me, and when they're dead people aren't smart enough to pick up on it.
Do you really think these NKs are the NKs I'd make?
On June 30 2014 07:24 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 07:19 slOosh wrote:
B/c I've been wrong a whole bunch of times? Seems straightforward.
And I actually have no idea how you play as scum, I'm just aware of the reputation that BH plays a decent scum game. Well, not that you should trust people telling you about their own scum meta, but basically as scum I always ensure my team wins by shitting up the thread and getting people really really angry. I use my ability to make many posts and argue a lot to prevent town from playing constructively, and rely on the length of my filter to make myself look useful. Also, I aim my NK at people who suspect me, shooting the towniest, loudest people who don't like me. I'd never waste a shot on chezinu, and I'd never ever not shoot VE or you. A lot of what makes me good as scum is that I always shoot people who suspect me. This sounds like a dumb strategy, but by definition it makes it easier to survive. People might notice that everyone who had a strong scumread on me is dead, but they never draw conclusions, even though everyone is aware this is my top scum strategy. It makes situations like lylo very easy. Amazingly, you're underestimating my scumplay by not assuming I'd just shoot you. Most poeple don't know how to use the nk.
Chez is not dead bro...
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Artanis never claimed to save Chez
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On June 30 2014 07:49 YouKnowZhou wrote:Oh come on, are you kidding me? Artanis listed Chez as his top townread the night after, right before he died with NO explanation. He obviously saved Chez.
here
"There's also one comment in his filter that makes me near certain that he's town." Aka Chezinu's filter, not Artanis's. This implies that Artanis did not save Chezinu; otherwise, it would be a breadcrumb in Artanis's filter that would cause Chezinu to be "near certain ... town"
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On June 22 2014 10:06 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
List of people we're not lynching today:
Artanis
Snickers
VisceraEyes
Release
Probably not lynching slOosh or Chez either, so that leaves BH, Lazer and Koshi. Those three candidates are the people I want to focus on, though slOosh and Chez are fair game too if you have a good case.
This is his post after the deathless Day-post.
SloOsh/Chez? Unless you think it is some next-level bait, I'd say his medic save was not on either.
Justify your scumslip however you want. We do not have confirmation that Artanis saved Chez.
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Your scumbuddy is still going down.
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On June 30 2014 09:01 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 09:00 Koshi wrote:
##unvote
##vote: YouKnowZhou
Chez worst scumbuddy. gg oh, you can't possibly allow this, this is past the deadline
Messaged Kurumi. He said 00 is deadline, not 59
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or last counted vote I should say.
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On June 30 2014 09:06 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I saved myself on N2 you numbnuggets.
I was fully prepared to make a case on how "Artanis must have saved Release" N2. Never cam to that.
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On June 30 2014 09:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 09:08 Release wrote:On June 30 2014 09:06 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I saved myself on N2 you numbnuggets. I was fully prepared to make a case on how "Artanis must have saved Release" N2. Never cam to that. My initial read on you was right. Stupid town consensus townreading you leading to me townreading you as well Did get you from the grave though! PMed this to Kurumi 30 min before deadline. Show nested quote +Original Message From Artanis[Xp]:
Going with a Koshi/Release scumteam. Honestly hope Koshi is scum more than anything because this'd be a really sad display of his towngame if it is. Also, is there a scum qt?
http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/a7jPbWLJHBhW
Let me one up you. I called Artanis medic on N1. 
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On June 30 2014 09:14 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2014 09:11 Release wrote:On June 30 2014 09:09 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On June 30 2014 09:08 Release wrote:On June 30 2014 09:06 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I saved myself on N2 you numbnuggets. I was fully prepared to make a case on how "Artanis must have saved Release" N2. Never cam to that. My initial read on you was right. Stupid town consensus townreading you leading to me townreading you as well Did get you from the grave though! PMed this to Kurumi 30 min before deadline. Original Message From Artanis[Xp]:
Going with a Koshi/Release scumteam. Honestly hope Koshi is scum more than anything because this'd be a really sad display of his towngame if it is. Also, is there a scum qt? http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/a7jPbWLJHBhWLet me one up you. I called Artanis medic on N1. Hm, what made you think I was doc? I saved GK until 30 min before deadline when I switched to SlOosh even though my townread on him was weaker just because I thought he was more likely to get shot.
You attacked me and reconsidered. I felt that a VT would have gone ham and probed for information (like Snickers, who actually turned out to be Detective) for longer than 1 post before changing their mind.
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The sane cop is somewhat misleading because there likely exists a mafia alignment changing counterpart, and he does not know that he is sane.
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Snickers, let's be fair about the situation. Despite saying a few times who the scum team were (and I'm sure that throughout the game, everyone was correct at some point), you have to make convincing cases in order to lynch your suspects. If you actually maintained your reads as strongly as you claim, you would have strongly opposed any non (release/koshi/mderg) lynch and prevented the town candidate from dying; you didn't. This is why you were left alive (pre cop claim) and Artanis was shot twice (besides being suspected medic).
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On June 30 2014 12:04 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I wonder if anyone knows why I read Chez as confirmed town.
Please elaborate. I thought it was this post?
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EPT
