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As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 09:50 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? This post has no substance. And why would you talk down to bunny about him having limited information? Do you have less limited information? Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded. He says I have limited information. How would he know that I am town? Well, if he was mafia he would know that I am town. So ##Vote: YKZ
This is the original post in which 27Bunnies casts suspicion on YKZ for claiming that 27bunnies has "limited information" (implying that YKZ belives that he has more information than 27bunnies, implying that YKZ is mafia since the only possible difference between players atm is town vs mafia).
On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies
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On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum.
On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule? I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so... I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm
On June 16 2014 11:50 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:43 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule? I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so... I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm Can you explain why a townie would never do that. Also what does lylo stand for. I know it is a phase at the end of the game. I can probably figure out why a scum would fake claim blue if i knew the definition. A townie isn't drawn to a VT claim in the way scum is. As a townie, when you see a VT claim, you think "huh, I guess that's a bit weird", but it's not the main thing on your mind. Scum, however jumps on it cause that's what scum does. Also, it's extremely worth noting that Kenpachi Rule Extended applies even to 27nb's current case. LYLO means "LYnch or LOse". It's when if town mislynches, town loses. So, 2 townies and 1 scum together are at LYLO, or 3 townies and 2 scum.
On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute!
The way in which the Kenpachi rule is explained Without a blatant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player (and the subsequent explanation), a vote due to the Kenpachi rule entails that the vote on the claimed vanilla townie be due to the claim of vt. However, 27bunnie's vote on you is completely independent of your claim of vanilla townie (if you removed you vt claim, 27bunnie would still have voted for you).
Because this is the case and 27bunnies has explained this to you (and all of us many times), your posts (no fewer than 4, I only chose the most pertinent posts) after her vote that claim that the Kenpachi rule supports your vote on her, and that her actions support the use of the Kenpachi rule are incorrect. This is YKZ's deliberate misinterpretation of what 27bunnies was saying and is not only a method of causing chaos in the thread, but also an early attempt to start a bandwagon and assume eminence over everyone else in the game. Unless you can prove to me (or anyone else) how Kenpachi's rule actually applies to what 27bunnie did (which would require a change of definition in my perspective, because as the current definition stands, 27bunnie is not mafia by the Kenpachi rule), you will have my vote.
##vote YouKnowZhou
Some rather useless defense by YKZ. In the way in which I see it, the following is indicative of playing to survive, and an excessive concern of self, rather than trying to progress, which I believe is indicative of mafia.
On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule? I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so... I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm
Of course YKZ claims Kenpachi's rule works because he is the one using it.
Of course YKZ claims that scum never claim vt because he claimed vt and wants to render himself as assured town.
YKZ does not necessarily need to be town to make these claims but tries further to convince us of his VT claim.
On June 16 2014 11:05 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:58 Snickers wrote:Also, your posts are giving me BH vibes.
Hello everyone. I am not sure how to quote someone so if the above quote was wrong please tell me how. (I checked preview and it looked right) What does BH stand for? For awhile i thought VT stood for vigilante not vanilla town. Also this kenpachi rule is useless. BH stands for "Blazinghand": he is a mafia-guy who is mean to newbies and throws around his "vet" status in games and thinks he is way better then everyone else. ne1 who thinks I am BH also thinks I am town tho cuz BH's favorite thing is to fake claim blue roles every game when he is scum. He would never claim vt as scum bcuz he wants to fake claim blue rofl
Same thing and claims that he is better than everyone else (in light of the BH-YKZ duality)
On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip.
27bunnie basically tacitly tells everyone to stop discussing blue because it will tell the mafia who are blue, but YKZ insists that this is a scumslip. Logic tells use that if YKZ is mafia, he cannot be blue and therefore the speculation is useless. If YKZ is town, discussion will only lure the mafia shot. Therefore, 27bunnie is correct is dissuading discussion from blue-talk but YKZ underscores it.
On June 16 2014 11:34 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:27 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 11:13 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. This reminds me of something you once said in Les Mafia: On May 22 2013 15:51 Blazinghand wrote:
DP, you're not bad, you're just wrong about scumslips. When I flip town, promise me this: for the next full game played, any time you mention scumslips you will say "I was wrong, BH was right, there is no such thing as a scumslip" Did something change? Yeah in the YKZ quote nobody thought I was blazinghand, so I thought I could get away with the fallacious "scumslip" argument, since you guys clearly aren't willing to accept the reasonable Kenpachi Rule argument. The fact of the matter is, 27nb IS scum because of Kenpachi Rule. I'm allowed to lie, cheat, steal, etc (well not cheat but you get the idea) to get you sheep to follow me and lynch him. The ends justify the means. also, 27nb's retconned case on me that's about me saying s/he doesn't have good info is based on, you guessed it, another scumslip. Let me get it through everyone's heads: I, Blazinghand, am by far the best scum player on TL Mafia. I may not be an amazing town player, I admit, but I am a GOD of scum, I only ever scumslip as town. You can look at my past games; every time someone calls me out for a scumslip, I'm town. You know why? As town, I don't have to bother worrying about scumslips cause I know I am innocent. As scum, I play a much cleaner game in terms of slips because I have to. So, 27nb's slip-based case on me actually proves how townie I am, and his/her hilarious backtracking on calling me potentially blue only shows how scummy 27nb is.
Again, of course he would claim that he doesn't slip as mafia; he made a slip and must therefore defend his slip. This is baseless and mostly just "believe me please."
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I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ.
+ Show Spoiler +Since that took an hour, I will take a break and be back in a few hours
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On June 16 2014 13:10 Release wrote:
The way in which the Kenpachi rule is explained Without a blatant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player (and the subsequent explanation), a vote due to the Kenpachi rule entails that the vote on the claimed vanilla townie be due to the claim of vt. However, 27bunnie's vote on you is completely independent of your claim of vanilla townie (if you removed you vt claim, 27bunnie would still have voted for you).
Ding ding ding! Someone is reading correctly.
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Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
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Vote Count - Day 1:
YouKnowZhou (2): 27ninjabunnies, Release
27ninjabunnies (1): YouKnowZhou
Currently Not Voting (9): Chezinu, VisceraEyes, Snickers, goodkarma, Lazermonkey, mderg, Artanis[Xp], Oatsmaster, slOosh
Currently YouKnowZhou is set to be lynched with 2 votes! Day will end in
Remember: Voting is mandatory. You can find the spreadsheet to the game here.
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So while I may or may not share the opinion that "The Kenpachi Rule" actually works or whatever, it's pretty much scientifically proven that you cannot discover the alignment of a player based on whether he is properly applying the tenets of the rule or not. That he's spoken at all makes me not want to lynch YKZ, and I think that bunnies is like supertown based on what she's saying and how she's arguing.
I'm more interested in lynching people like BH sitting back and tossing in occasional kindling like the following
On June 16 2014 11:12 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip.
and are content to sit back and watch it all burn.
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Also HI BUNNIES LETS LYNCH SCUMS TOGETHER ^^
##Vote: BH
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On June 16 2014 14:42 VisceraEyes wrote:So while I may or may not share the opinion that "The Kenpachi Rule" actually works or whatever, it's pretty much scientifically proven that you cannot discover the alignment of a player based on whether he is properly applying the tenets of the rule or not. That he's spoken at all makes me not want to lynch YKZ, and I think that bunnies is like supertown based on what she's saying and how she's arguing. I'm more interested in lynching people like BH sitting back and tossing in occasional kindling like the following Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:12 Blazinghand wrote:On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip. and are content to sit back and watch it all burn.
FYI: YKZ and BH are the same guy.
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sigh
I thought he was just trolling the game, I didn't realize he was actually in it. LOL
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On June 16 2014 10:49 YouKnowZhou wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 10:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:36 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:33 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:21 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? So rumor has it, There is a guy, called Kenpachi, and at the game start, he says "hi, i am Kenpachi and i am a townie." The first guy casting doubt on that dude is always scum, that's the "Kenpachi rule" It's a stupid rule, and has no basis to why I am reading YKZ as scum. On June 16 2014 10:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 10:16 goodkarma wrote:On June 16 2014 10:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:
I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt. On June 16 2014 09:52 27ninjabunnies wrote:
So ##Vote: YKZ Kenpachi Rule ##vote 27ninjabunnies Kenpachi rule? The Kenpachi rule, named after its author Kenpachi, is a TL adage reflecting the idea that without a clear and better motivation for a vote, it is almost certainly a scumtell when a player votes a player who claimed VT at the start of the game. Kenpachi's rule, in broader form, is: Without a blantant display of humor, a vote on a vt claim comes almost always from a scum player. The core of Kenpachi rule is that a vt claim by its nature is not suspicious to a town player, who isn't hunting for blues. Without a clear motivation for a vt claim, it looks odd to scum, who want to attack someone safely. A corollary of the Kenpachi rule is the reverse phenomenon: the first vt claim is almost always sincere. These definitions don't exactly match up... You can search it on TL for urself, but it's not about claiming townie, as 27ninjabunnies asserts. The rule is about claiming vanilla townie. Basicly, scum want to jump on something, and a VT claim looks basicly not intresting to a townie who isn't hunting for blues. It looks unique though to someone who is hunting for blues: scum. But knowing all of this, couldn't you say you're VT regardless of alignment, bait someone's suspicion and then claim Kenpachi rule? I'm having trouble understanding why at the very start of the game scum would be more prone to jumping on something that looks scummy. I mean if scum's job is to blend in, why be the first to vote and make a case? There's always scrutiny that comes with doing so... I understand your concern. Let me elucedate: Kenpachi's rule actually works. Your concerned bcuz you assume a townie would vote a vt claim so scum could claim vt then a townie votes and gets "baited". Your concern is wrong bcuz a townie would never do this. this is part of the kenpachi's rule. the next part is that you assume it looks scummy, which it isn't. scum would never claim vt bcuz scum wants to be able to fakeclaim blue at lylo or sumthing. scum wants to blend in but they are jumpy silly folk. kenpachi rule always works, bcuz it never fails. tyvm
Also thought it should be pointed out that YKZ says the kenpachi rule "almost always" works and then says it "always works" without showing that his knowledge of the ruled changed between the posts.
When we make posts we should try to stop assuming things. Thanks everybody for helping me with my posting and questions.
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VE<3
You still want to lynch him, even though you thought he was trolling the game?
Also, Release, I basically said the exact same thing you did, but apparently mine didnt come out like yours.
TT
But I still stick with my YKZ read.
VE probs town, Release probs town.
Snickers could be town or mafia. He seems to be buddying with YKZ, though he seems to be really trying to figure out the game.
On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts
The weird thing i find is here, and his whole "We should lynch bunnies because YKZ is a knowledgeable player" seems super off to me!
Knowledgeable does not make you town.
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Also, I am off to bed/ playing video mafia. Hope to see more thoughts and questions from people when i wake up!
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On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts
First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true).
So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null.
The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb).
Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon.
On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole.
That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia.
Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis.
And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival).
-----------------------Line for separation--------------------------
On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote.
@2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP)
@3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town.
next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch.
@4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia.
@5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip."
this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination.
See below:
On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now.
On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1.
Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\
+ Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed
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I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release
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On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release
I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face.
Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so?
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On June 16 2014 22:11 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 17:25 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I find this discussion about YKZ/27nb and its origins really boring and I can't believe we've written so much about such bullshit. Biggest perpetrator of it is Release. He's just rehashed everything that's already said but made it more wordy.
##Vote Release I kinda like this vote. And I kinda like Artanis' face. Release sounds a lot like he's trying to justify feeling the way he does rather than explaining honestly WHY he feels the way he does. Does anyone else think so?
I agree Release is looking scummy, but I wouldn't use that exact wording. He seems heavily invested in his case, but is only leaning towards ninja's side of this debate. These two statements especially didn't sit right with me from Release's post on 21:10 15 June 2014:
"As the situation between 27bunnies and YKZ currently stands, I am leaning on the side of 27bunnies."
And yet he ends this same post:
"I think 27bunnie has the right idea, but has not manifested clearly (or in enough detail) what needs to be said to properly incriminate YKZ."
Release doesn't seem that interested in what may develop from YKZ. He already has the verdict in mind... This is a HUGE inconsistency from how he starts his post.
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Welcome to the townpile Karma.
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Some of you are doubleposting within a minute or two too often. Please don't be so harsh to the "Post" button! Hug it before clicking it! 33 hours and 15 minutes remain in the Day.
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On June 16 2014 09:50 27ninjabunnies wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 09:45 slOosh wrote:
Bunnies (ninja? 27?), who is smurf and why should we lynch him? YKZ is smurf. And at first, I just put him on the list to get conversation going. I don't like that he wants to ignore me completely. And that he has to immediately come out and say he is vt.
In an attempt to disprove one of the things release said.
next post where she votes for YKZ
Also, another point to why I don't like YKZ is the bolded.
Then votes.
I think it is safe to say she had multiple reasons, not only one.
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On June 16 2014 17:12 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:26 Snickers wrote:
So far I am leaning towards 27nb as scum. Although i said the kenpachi rule is useless, now that i understand it better, it does have some merit. It seems like for a scum to claim VT first day would be a tactic that would be stupidly selfish, since it would most likely hurt the whole scum team. It seems like a tactic only a bad scum team would use. (But how would a scum team know it had a disadvantage. Maybe with poor roles? Maybe by meta? I do not think a scum team would plan to use the kenpachi rule to their favor.) 27nb has not really commented on the kenpachi rule and is just dismissing it.
Also i am not voting for her yet.
Only eight out of the twelve players have posted so far, so it seems too early.
My reads for other players so far.
Artanis, sloosh and Ve have not said much so no read.
goodkarma seems to be playing standard. Nothing really sticking out at me for now. Maybe I will reread his posts.
Chezinu has a high ratio of text to information. Seems weird but it only the first day. I do not think this information is sufficient enough to even mention the s word.
YKZ seems to be a very knowledgeable player.
It seems for a stupid tactic for two scum to call each other out day 1. It seems like something that would be a risk that would be hard to get payed back on. Am i right about this? Another reason i am leaning towards 27nb, is if she is shown as scum, YKZ would then almost be proven as a town player and we would have a knowledgeable town player and only two more scum to hunt. Hopefully we could then protect him. I would not like to lynch someone with one of my two points being. "If we lynch her and shes a scum it will help a lot" because she still has a fair chance of not being scum. Also time is really precious for town so voting for such a long shot reason would show that town has bad chances after day one.
Please comment on my thoughts First bold is incorrect. YKZ has been acted stubbornly incorrectly and has misrepresented information in a manner that implies that he is correct and 27nb is wrong (whereas the opposite is true). So you essentially have no reads? I doubt anyone has any solid reads except for/against 27nb and YKZ. Weird to include an entire paragraph about null. The above implies bad/useless town but the next paragraph changes my read completely (as it did for 27nb). Second bold: You would prefer that YKZ be town and therefore believe that 27nb is scum? The roles have already been determined. That is a complete lack of reasoning for wanting a lynch but still being swayed? That reeks of scum trying to jump on the bandwagon. Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 12:32 Snickers wrote:On June 16 2014 12:14 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 12:12 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 16 2014 12:03 27ninjabunnies wrote:On June 16 2014 11:59 slOosh wrote:
What is this "limited information" that you guys are getting at? On June 16 2014 09:37 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'm a vt.
I'm not really replying to 27ninjabunnies for making a bad judgement call about any of the lynches. That would be unfair since he has limited information. I will be just trying to clarify some things so you, and everyone else here, could get a better impression about me. Of course, you would have to trust me on that.
What I'm trying to say is, YKZ good, lynching YKZ bad, mmkay? What's truly amazing here is what an awesome example this is for Kenpachi Rule Extended. Even after I call it you're still doing it. Assuming you do in fact flip scum I'll have to write a post game analysis just on the first few pages of this game. Maybe I could tie it in with a general Kenpachi and Kenpachi Rule Extended / Zephirdd Rule tutorial. I'm getting more excited by the minute! BH I thought you were some amazing mafia player? Obviously not because YOU ARE WRONG ON ME! And I'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game. See the statement is suspicious to me "i'll disprove your kenpachi rule by the end of the game." why the end of the game. It could easily be prove "wrong" the first night. "wrong" as in if your lynched and shown as town. Or if YKZ is lynched and showed scum.I am just trying to show where I think 27nb is thinking in a strange way. Maybe she just thinks that way normally. I do not think the kenpachi rule can be proven wrong. I think it can be proven to not be 100% right though. I think saying it is wrong is stating it has no merit at all. I already explained why i thought a scum could potentially claim VT day one to attempt for an advantage. Also sloosh thanks for posting. I think this kenpachi rule should still be discussed a little more, but I see where you think we should stop the seeming rigmarole. That is a strange statement because asking for town to die to prove something is ridiculous, and is against our goal to kill mafia. However, the second part is correct. Why would you include the first part in this statement? Reeks of mafia. Also quick note on Scientific Method: Nothing can be proven correct, but 1 counterexample demonstrates a need to change the hypothesis. And from 27nb's perspective, I take a neutral stance on what she said. By the end of the game sounds like she was saying that she would be revealed as town when the game conclude, assuming that she would survive the entire game. As opposed to end of the day by getting a lynch of YKZ, but, at that point, not many people had taken a stance on the situation. It's passive but focussed on moving the game forward (as opposed to YKZ's comments which were designed to draw attention to himself and his survival). -----------------------Line for separation-------------------------- Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 13:49 Snickers wrote:
Good post release, I wanted to comment on some of your points.
1.I think it should be stated that 27nb mentioned VT in a post before her vote post.
2.Also this "limited information" we all have different levels of information. This is a semi open game so we know what roles are possible but not the quantity. I am assuming that we all could be goons and VT? but even if we were not, information is simply not on the level of scum or town. A PR has more information that a VT because he knows his respective role exists in the game. So i think generally information goes scum>PR>Vt.
Also this "limited information" does not seem like a slip. 27nb was just trying to get the game going and I think two of the people she mentioned did not post. Even now three people have not posted so I would say we all have limited information. On day 1, information :: Mafia > Town.
3.Your point on YKZ claiming he only slips as mafia while playing town. I think this is 10000x more worthy than the "limited information" post. Is YKZ's slip the "limited information" post? I still think this point is very important even though I do not think YKZ slipped with the kenpachi rule or the "limited information"
4. I do not think talk about blue would lead to mafia finding out the blue players. Although it seems bad to claim blue players day one right? If I was scum and said I was vigilante and there was actually someone vigilante, they would shoot me the first night. If I was VT and claimed vigilante, it would help lead scum to target a "less worthy player". But the risk seems to high for that tactic to be valuable. Also i used "less worthy player" because a smart VT would obviously be more worthy than an unintelligent vigilante that shot a PR.
5. Also that speculate post was really ambiguous and I think i may have caused that. I was not speculating that YKZ was a blue. I was trying to show a possibility that was being overlooked by a player. Then 27nb said "I wouldnt speculate" well is she telling me not to speculate or saying she would not personally speculate.
@1: That was a question, separate from her vote. @2: I'm pretty sure we don't use roles on "night 0." (check the Godfather role on the OP) @3: Not too sure what you're asking but I can clarify: "Limited information" indicates scum because on Day 1, no one has any information except for the mafia, so assuming that YKZ is town, he should have less than or equal information to everyone else. Clearly, "limited information" implies that he has more and therefore cannot be town. next point: The Kenpachi rule does not apply but he insisted repeatedly and incorrectly that it did apply, causing chaos in town and trying to lead a mislynch. @4: That sounds really scummy. On day 1, blues have no information more than town so we need to keep them alive. Talking about blues can only increase that chance that mafia corrects identifies blue so talking about blue on day 1 favors mafia. @5: "You wouldnt speculate bcuz you think i am scum. Unless of cours u kno i am not scum. So I caught u in scum slip." this is incorrect. 27nb who thinks YKZ is scum does not speculate whether YKZ is blue because 27nb believes that YKZ is red. YKZ presents information as though 27nb is speculating which is the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Read the second part closely. Speculation only occurs if town is the hypothesis, which is not the case, so again, YKZ makes an incorrect statement and misleads us. 27nb's statement is not a scum slip by any stretch of the imagination. See below: Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:09 27ninjabunnies wrote:
Snickers, you need to work a bit on your quoting, but not bad.
Just hit quote in the upper right corner of the post. It works better!
Also, pr means power role, so yes means same as blue.
I think coming out like that puts yourself in the spotlight.
i wouldnt speculate whether or not he is blue right now. Show nested quote +On June 16 2014 11:22 27ninjabunnies wrote:
OMG Bh<3
WTG buddy!
hahaha. im laughing my ass off right now.
So what I'm saying here is that I think you are scum, and I'm not removing my vote from you..
But in the offchance you are town- which I don't believe one bit- town shouldnt speculate this early in the game whether or not a person is blue or just vt. That gives tooooo much information for mafia. That's what I was saying in sayng we shouldnt speculate whether or not you are blue.
That was definitely not a slip, so stop trying to grasp at straws because I caught you d1. Overall, this sounds like a soft defense of YKZ, and such a defense is untenable.\ + Show Spoiler +and with that I am off to bed
So i do not think you guys should pick a statement and bold it when right after that statement i said why it would be terrible to do that.
I was not asking for 27nb to die, I was saying it was strange for her to act super confident and not mention how she could prove him wrong less than 48 hours than now.
1.In my above post i showed where it was linked to her vote post. Also Her first post about VT was a question. The second one was not. It was then linked to the Vote Post.
2.and 3. Last time I am explaining this unless someone one new to the thread does not understand this.
"no one has any information except for the mafia,"
Since this is a semi open game the knowledge of a PR and a VT is different. Pr knows that his respective role exists.
Also we all have information through the posts.
4.So this actually makes sense why talking about blue would be bad day one. (Same logic applies for why we try to get scrum to speak on day one). But i do not think what i said was scummy. I think you said I was scummy then put a true statement after it to try and fool somebody.
5. I still do not understand this speculation idea.
I do not think you understand me and are twisting my words a lot to hurt me. You also seem to be twisting 27nb's words a lot to protect her. You seemed to have missed the part where she mentions VT without the question mark.
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Snickers, you mentioned that you felt Release made a good post before, now you accuse him of twisting your words to hurt you. What's your overall read on him?
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EPT
