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we should lynch VE today. He is lying somewhere-the simplest solution to deal with a liar is to kill him, because otherwise we will waste a lot of time dealing with him when we could be using that time to find scum. He also clearly has not been an asset to town so far. His filter is one of the biggest, yet at no point has he provided anything useful to town (aside from that one post on Mocsta and his repeated change in story about how much he read)
As for the third party is or is not scum debate, it's just semantics. Our goal is to kill all nontown players. Third party is nontown, and a free lynch on antitown should never be passed up. I'm in agreement with Ace, just kill VE.
##vote VisceraEyes
Moving on:
Trancestorm is still incredibly scummy. Note that despite saying he would be less busy today, and promising activity, he has been almost completely absent. The absence is not necessarily a problem in itself-it's the fact that his words don't actually align with what he is doing. He doesn't seem to be interested in scumhunting, despite saying that he will have more time to read and participate. He never makes any pushes at all himself despite encouraging another player to "simply out your suspicions".
Compare:
On March 20 2013 16:09 TranceStorm wrote:
The implication you were driving at was that there were several mafia members driving the lynch. There is no need to be so vague in your questions. Just out your suspicions.
On March 20 2013 00:22 TranceStorm wrote:
@zarepath: in response to your town points (one of your posts is a response to Vivax).
First, as to my lynch choice today. I have a choice to make between the case against TPS and against Mr. Wiggles (which I had pointed out first last night). For me, the compelling evidence against TPS seems to be his behavior in his very flimsy vote for GM last night and hasn't paid any lip service to the accusations leveled at him. My case against Wiggles has been responded to somewhat, if unconvincingly. In a decision between two scummy candidates, I have to the most likely one, in my opinion it is TPS.
As to your second point, you are overgeneralizing. I was asked specifically for the case of zarepath, which I had read over and agreed with. That doesn't mean that any case that's presented to me will be something I agree with.
On March 20 2013 15:11 TranceStorm wrote:
The issue I currently have with your defense at the moment WOS is that it depends entirely on the fact that you, as you say, have historically played poorly in these circumstances and are doing so right now as well -> therefore you are not mafia. However, I don't think this forms a satisfactory defense and is far too reliant on 'meta' arguments. Just because you have behaved scummily in past games does not mean that we can give you a free pass when you behave scummily in this game!
That's why we have to look at the particular circumstances of this game as our primary 'evidence'. You state that you didn't have particularly you didn't have any strong reads on D1 and wanted to be seen in a good light. I'm not so sure that is the case when I look back at your D1 posts: and here, as you yourself admit, we see that kita's arguments hold up pretty strongly.
Do you have any particular response to kita's arguments beyond your meta?
Another thing to note is that he goes with the thread sentiment at every step. Notice how he is against TPS/Wiggles when the conversation was primarily against those two players. Then, without any explanation whatsoever, he goes from TPS/Wiggles to WoS. That's strikingly suspicious given that his only mention of TPS after that post is in his last post (where he says if WoS is scum then TPS is not, which is not justified by anything)
One last thing of importance: TranceStorm attacked DYH on day 1, and asserted that he did not ever drop the case on DYH.
So, he went from DYH to TPS/Wiggles, to WoS, without any sort of explanation for the shift in reads each time. Each time, it seems as if he has simply gone with the flow to blend in.
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But I'm town Ryu. I'm not 3P. That's where you're whole post breaks down. You say you want to find scum, but you're voting to lynch a townie. So....?
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Again the problem I see is we can either vote VE today or any number of non-posting anti-townies. I just don't understand, if these players truly cared about town winning, wouldn't they be here at some point contributing in some way?
Coag why do you feel we need to be voting Wiggles rather than VE today?
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Here is my struggle on VE, I'll start with why I originally thought he was scummy, which is not super relevant anymore.
I thought VE was scummy because of the way he was jumping around with his vote, pushing a bunch of different wagons. This started with DP but I also disagree with him on BH, which takes me to the 2 reveals at night when don't serve a town purpose. Revealing the masoning BH was doing is fine, but doing it when there is plenty of time for scum to react is a completely scum motivated thing to do.
IF VE is actually a vet, then he knows with reasonable certainty that he is going to live until day2. Waiting that extra couple hours, or even just waiting until day 2 to reveal the masoning and why that made BH look scummy would not have changed any of the value of VE's points. What it did do was throw in some WIFOM where we find BH suspicious because he is forced to claim and then doesn't die, which simultaneously makes VE look more townie because the common thing scum would do in that situation is just shoot BH. Basically, I would absolutely no problem with the way VE went about this, IF he had waited until daytime.
Then there is the Vet claim, which also looks bad simply because going past "I took a hit" is bad. But all of this is neither here nor there anymore becase...
The 3rd party crap! This is where I am getting really confused. If we are to believe the logs, then the only reason I can think of that VE would post them with that last line in there is that he honestly believes that he never actually joined the 3rd party. Also, if that premise is rejected and he did actually join the 3rd party, then it means the my scumread is likely wrong because scum wouldn't say, "If I'm going to be ignored by most of the thread, I might as well punish them for it.".
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WHAY ARE SO MANY PEOPLE LIMITING THE LYNCHES WTF
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EBWOP:
I'm unvoting until I can figure some things out.
Unvote: VE
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wiggles has made zero impact on my town meter.
Wiggles is not a bad town player.
Its pretty straightforward.
also
##dildo geript
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Lol one day mebbe I'll be able to nail people simply based on 10 words of meta.
Are you calling geript a dildo or putting one in him? I might approve of either.
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@VE - Why did you post about BH masoning you when you did? And why did it take you so long to realize that logs were allowed to be posted after BH posted them, which, even if it contradicted what you had heard from the hosts, means that the information was no longer exclusive to the QT and was now fair game?
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On March 21 2013 05:11 DoYouHas wrote:
@VE - Why did you post about BH masoning you when you did? And why did it take you so long to realize that logs were allowed to be posted after BH posted them, which, even if it contradicted what you had heard from the hosts, means that the information was no longer exclusive to the QT and was now fair game?
don't forget his semi-allegations that I falsified logs, which he never followed up on
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I have this simple question for you VE:
If you're town, and felt inspired to copy paste in mason chat logs, why are there no timestamps? Wouldn't you have to take a deliberate effort to omit them?
And if we assume it's true that VE became some kind of 3P: we don't know its purpose. When last I checked our objective was to remove all mafia. There are 3P setups where the 3P is benign or has some kind of objective that isn't really anti-town. Like assassins in LVII or some kind of survivor role. For all we know 3P here could also be benign to town. All we could do is speculate... Like what if The Mirror is really The Devil. To win, he needs to "empower" three different individuals. These individuals actually lose their roles, but are never notified. Or some other such thing... It's all speculation. We simply don't know, and quite honestly we shouldn't care right now...
We 100% know that mafia have the means to kill us off, and they should be our priority. If we lynch VE today, it should be on the merits of him being possibly mafia rather than 3P.
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I just didn't think about the logs man. They weren't even factoring in because I specifically asked if they were allowed. I assumed that if that were changed I would have specifically heard something to that regard. It was apparently in the thread and I missed it though.
I posted about BH masoning me because I thought he was scum based on my conversation with him during the cycle and based on my observation of his play D1/N1. If he's scum, I wanted the fact that he's masoning people and specifically requesting that this fact be kept secret IN the thread. Becuase that's active manipulation of town. Active.
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Yes I did it for readability purposes. The timestamps are of no consequence, but if you want an unabridged copy I can certainly provide one.
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On March 21 2013 05:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
I just didn't think about the logs man. They weren't even factoring in because I specifically asked if they were allowed. I assumed that if that were changed I would have specifically heard something to that regard. It was apparently in the thread and I missed it though.
I posted about BH masoning me because I thought he was scum based on my conversation with him during the cycle and based on my observation of his play D1/N1. If he's scum, I wanted the fact that he's masoning people and specifically requesting that this fact be kept secret IN the thread. Becuase that's active manipulation of town. Active.
Look I have a good reason to not want to claim mason to thread. Was I masoning people without telling the thread? Yeah, sure. But all that does is paint a target on my back if I claim mason! Come on, man. And how did you NOT SEE IT in the thread? Like come on, man, there was a LOT of talking about it.
This just doesn't add up at all. I don't understand your thought process.
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On March 21 2013 05:17 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yes I did it for readability purposes. The timestamps are of no consequence, but if you want an unabridged copy I can certainly provide one.
wat this is like the worst explanation
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On March 21 2013 05:15 goodkarma wrote:
I have this simple question for you VE:
If you're town, and felt inspired to copy paste in mason chat logs, why are there no timestamps? Wouldn't you have to take a deliberate effort to omit them?
And if we assume it's true that VE became some kind of 3P: we don't know its purpose. When last I checked our objective was to remove all mafia. There are 3P setups where the 3P is benign or has some kind of objective that isn't really anti-town. Like assassins in LVII or some kind of survivor role. For all we know 3P here could also be benign to town. All we could do is speculate... Like what if The Mirror is really The Devil. To win, he needs to "empower" three different individuals. These individuals actually lose their roles, but are never notified. Or some other such thing... It's all speculation. We simply don't know, and quite honestly we shouldn't care right now...
We 100% know that mafia have the means to kill us off, and they should be our priority. If we lynch VE today, it should be on the merits of him being possibly mafia rather than 3P.
Okay, admittedly mafia is possibly a bigger threat than 3P, and there are benign 3P roles like survivor that don't mechanically inhibit a town win. At this point, though, I don't trust anything VE has to say. He outed me to the thread at a weird time, as has been mentioned. He removed the timestamps from his logs "for readability" and posted them, soft-claiming 3p (which he walked back as people voted him) and he's been making weird noises about me being scum but not seriously pushing me for like over 48 hours.
Whatever VE is, he's not playing for the town.
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I have not softclaimed 3p. That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Why would anyone of any alignment do that?
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On March 21 2013 05:21 VisceraEyes wrote:
I have not softclaimed 3p. That's the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Why would anyone of any alignment do that?
It IS super retarded, but calling it retarded doesn't change what's in the (possibly doctored) logs. I don't know why you did it, you tell me.
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On March 21 2013 05:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
I just didn't think about the logs man. They weren't even factoring in because I specifically asked if they were allowed. I assumed that if that were changed I would have specifically heard something to that regard. It was apparently in the thread and I missed it though.
I posted about BH masoning me because I thought he was scum based on my conversation with him during the cycle and based on my observation of his play D1/N1. If he's scum, I wanted the fact that he's masoning people and specifically requesting that this fact be kept secret IN the thread. Becuase that's active manipulation of town. Active.
I find it hard to believe that you has such a lapse in regards to the logs. Whenever I (or anyone really) has a top scum read that they are actively pursuing, which you were after revealing the BH had masoned you, I pay pretty close attention to that person's posts until they either alleviate my suspicions, or are dead. So I don't buy that you didn't notice the logs. And once you notice them, that would immediately create conflict which would quickly lead you to the host announcement that logs are allowed. This is a townie train of thought for someone pursuing their top scum read, it is not the train of thought you displayed.
As for your second part, how would any of what you were trying to reveal to the town changed if you had waited until day2 to post about it?
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On March 21 2013 04:35 VisceraEyes wrote:
By accepting in the log I was trying to coax some kind of response in the thread and I didn't get any. So I outted him. That's it.
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EPT
