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On August 22 2015 02:09 calgar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 01:53 NewSunshine wrote:
For Enter the Coliseum:
"This card is just a more expensive and worse version of Brawl."
I feel like you guys got lazy when you wrote about this card, that assessment looks totally unreasonable to me. I might agree with you if it was a Warrior card. Paladins are lacking in hard removal without Equality and they can manipulate the attack of enemy minions, the card is much better than you're giving it credit for. I have the sneaking feeling that it's not the only card that will surprise you. I agree - this kind of effect seems like one of the ones that would tend to be very difficult to analyze in your head/in a vacuum without being able to see it in effect. It could potentially go well with the 1 Equality most midrange pallies are running right now.
gives aldor peacekeeper more combo uses also. I think it has the potential to be really good.
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I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
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It's like the entire list is made by the same people who called Grim Patron, Dr Boom and Sludge Belcher terrible.
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On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote:
I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs
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On August 22 2015 03:38 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote:
I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum. Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs
this is exactly why its badly evaluated, I don't think you only consider it in a murloc deck, its an inspire card, i've just done the maths and the average stats you get from the inspire is the 1/1 dude + a 2.08/2.42 murloc. This doesn't include the +2/+1 stats you get from the warleader or the +1 atk from old murk eye or the 1/1 murloc. On turn 6 with a hero power this guy throws out on average 6/7 stats in 3 separate bodies all with synergy. If he gets more than 1 inspire off its actually insane value.
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On August 22 2015 03:47 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 03:38 Drazerk wrote:On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote:
I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum. Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs this is exactly why its badly evaluated, I don't think you only consider it in a murloc deck, its an inspire card, i've just done the maths and the average stats you get from the inspire is the 1/1 dude + a 2.08/2.42 murloc. This doesn't include the +2/+1 stats you get from the warleader or the +1 atk from old murk eye. On turn 6 with a hero power this guy throws out on average 6/7 stats in 3 separate bodies all with synergy. If he gets more than 1 inspire off its actually insane value.
When is a 4 health minion ever going to survive more than 1 turn on turn 6 though? We already play Thaurissan only expecting it to survive 1 turn
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On August 22 2015 03:50 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 03:47 Zaros wrote:On August 22 2015 03:38 Drazerk wrote:On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote:
I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum. Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs this is exactly why its badly evaluated, I don't think you only consider it in a murloc deck, its an inspire card, i've just done the maths and the average stats you get from the inspire is the 1/1 dude + a 2.08/2.42 murloc. This doesn't include the +2/+1 stats you get from the warleader or the +1 atk from old murk eye. On turn 6 with a hero power this guy throws out on average 6/7 stats in 3 separate bodies all with synergy. If he gets more than 1 inspire off its actually insane value. When is a 4 health minion ever going to survive more than 1 turn on turn 6 though? We already play Thaurissan only expecting it to survive 1 turn
It doesn't need to survive all the time, if its on average a bolderfist ogre on turn 6 with synergy benefits that isn't vulnerable to single target removal and a part of it is pretty much a must kill. The must kill part of it in itself can generate tempo/intiative especially against classes like druid. Its also flexible in that it has the option to be played on turn 4 as a body that has to be killed. How can a card like that be rated 2/10? It's just stupid/lazy evaluation.
Edit: These are the stats you get with the 4 best murlocs; each has a 1/12 chance of happening:
Murloc Warleader: 3/4 + 3/3 + 1/1 with a +2/+1 buff for the murloc knight: Total stats: 9/9 for 6 mana
Murloc Knight: 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/1 with two must kill targets Total stats: 7/9 for 6 mana
Old Murk Eye: 3/4 + 3/4 with charge + 1/1 Total stats: 7/9 for 6 mana
Siltfin Spiritwalker: 3/4 + 2/5 + 1/1 draw a card if your knight dies before the 2/5. Total stats: 6/10 for 6 mana
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On August 22 2015 03:50 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 03:47 Zaros wrote:On August 22 2015 03:38 Drazerk wrote:On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote:
I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum. Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs this is exactly why its badly evaluated, I don't think you only consider it in a murloc deck, its an inspire card, i've just done the maths and the average stats you get from the inspire is the 1/1 dude + a 2.08/2.42 murloc. This doesn't include the +2/+1 stats you get from the warleader or the +1 atk from old murk eye. On turn 6 with a hero power this guy throws out on average 6/7 stats in 3 separate bodies all with synergy. If he gets more than 1 inspire off its actually insane value. When is a 4 health minion ever going to survive more than 1 turn on turn 6 though? We already play Thaurissan only expecting it to survive 1 turn
That's the point though. The threat of having Thaurissan on the board for more than one turn is so large that you have to kill it or you will very likely lose. The Murloc Knight is similar, if you let it live, I can keep throwing out tons of small bodies, which is fantastic against aggro. If you kill it as soon as I play it, then that's one less hit I take to the face - that's the whole purpose of the Inspire mechanic really, to create cards that become more threatening the longer you leave them alone.
Also keep in mind that while you play a minion expecting it to die the next turn, the fact is sometimes they live for another couple turns. It's not really fair to say it will always die immediately, and is therefore awful.
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On August 22 2015 03:54 Zaros wrote:
Edit: These are the stats you get with the 4 best murlocs; each has a 1/12 chance of happening:
Murloc Warleader: 3/4 + 3/3 + 1/1 with a +2/+1 buff for the murloc knight: Total stats: 9/9 for 6 mana
Murloc Knight: 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/1 with two must kill targets Total stats: 7/9
Old Murk Eye: 3/4 + 3/4 with charge + 1/1 Total stats: 7/9
Siltfin Spiritwalker: 3/4 + 2/5 + 1/1 draw a card if your knight dies before the 2/5. Total stats: 6/10
Is the Murloc Knight itself included in the maths? I would count getting a 2nd Murloc Knight among the best possible outcomes, nevermind me. After thinking about it I like the card a lot. Not as an attempt to push Murlocs onto Paladins, but just because it's so solid-looking.
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On August 22 2015 04:12 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 03:54 Zaros wrote:
Edit: These are the stats you get with the 4 best murlocs; each has a 1/12 chance of happening:
Murloc Warleader: 3/4 + 3/3 + 1/1 with a +2/+1 buff for the murloc knight: Total stats: 9/9 for 6 mana
Murloc Knight: 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/1 with two must kill targets Total stats: 7/9
Old Murk Eye: 3/4 + 3/4 with charge + 1/1 Total stats: 7/9
Siltfin Spiritwalker: 3/4 + 2/5 + 1/1 draw a card if your knight dies before the 2/5. Total stats: 6/10
Is the Murloc Knight itself included in the maths? I would count getting a 2nd Murloc Knight among the best possible outcomes, and after thinking about it I like the card a lot. Not as an attempt to push Murlocs onto Paladins, but just because it's so solid-looking.
The murloc knight is the one labelled as murloc knight with the "two must kill targets"
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As Zaros mentioned earlier, I feel that this list is very, very pessimistic in general.
I'm not sold on Varian yet. Yes he is strong, but I don't think he is as strong as everyone thinks he is considering his high mana cost
I think Enter the Coliseum is a really good card. Does Paladin have any non-Equality combo board clears at the moment?
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On August 22 2015 04:14 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 04:12 NewSunshine wrote:On August 22 2015 03:54 Zaros wrote:
Edit: These are the stats you get with the 4 best murlocs; each has a 1/12 chance of happening:
Murloc Warleader: 3/4 + 3/3 + 1/1 with a +2/+1 buff for the murloc knight: Total stats: 9/9 for 6 mana
Murloc Knight: 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/1 with two must kill targets Total stats: 7/9
Old Murk Eye: 3/4 + 3/4 with charge + 1/1 Total stats: 7/9
Siltfin Spiritwalker: 3/4 + 2/5 + 1/1 draw a card if your knight dies before the 2/5. Total stats: 6/10
Is the Murloc Knight itself included in the maths? I would count getting a 2nd Murloc Knight among the best possible outcomes, and after thinking about it I like the card a lot. Not as an attempt to push Murlocs onto Paladins, but just because it's so solid-looking. The murloc knight is the one labelled as murloc knight with the "two must kill targets"
Move along, that's just me being stupid. My bad yo.
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On August 22 2015 04:14 WindWolf wrote:
As Zaros mentioned earlier, I feel that this list is very, very pessimistic in general.
I'm not sold on Varian yet. Yes he is strong, but I don't think he is as strong as everyone thinks he is considering his high mana cost
I think Enter the Coliseum is a really good card. Does Paladin have any non-Equality combo board clears at the moment?
Nothing other than spell power avenging wrath/consecrate.
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On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote:
I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
this completely, giving almost every card a less than 50% rating just based off of the fact they don't fit into a current tier 1 deck list just showcases poor deckbuilding ability. A ton of these cards are going to be fantastic tech or open up new deck types. I can't help but laugh at most of these reviews
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On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote:
I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
Given how pessimistic they have been about almost everything, this is a given.
Seriously though, these ratings talk about potential new decks that cards can fit in, then still dismiss cards tailor made for new deck styles because they have no current viability.
I mean I understand that a new deck archetype is hard to predict and is something that actually rarely becomes viable, but there's these rating still carry a lot of bias for evaluating things based on current deck types.
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On August 22 2015 02:09 calgar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 01:53 NewSunshine wrote:
For Enter the Coliseum:
"This card is just a more expensive and worse version of Brawl."
I feel like you guys got lazy when you wrote about this card, that assessment looks totally unreasonable to me. I might agree with you if it was a Warrior card. Paladins are lacking in hard removal without Equality and they can manipulate the attack of enemy minions, the card is much better than you're giving it credit for. I have the sneaking feeling that it's not the only card that will surprise you. I agree - this kind of effect seems like one of the ones that would tend to be very difficult to analyze in your head/in a vacuum without being able to see it in effect. It could potentially go well with the 1 Equality most midrange pallies are running right now.
It did seem like a very short explanation, but when I reviewed the cards with a friend of mine a few days ago I said almost the exact same thing. I said "This is like a brawl that always loses."
Here's the thing:
Your opponent is never gonna have a lot of big guys out at once. If he does, you are better off with Equality + Consecrate or just Equality + trade a bunch of dudes.
The most likely scenario is that your opponent has a big threat (or a couple medium threats), and some 1/1 tokens, in which case Consecrate still does more for less.
The card is very similar to Brawl. The thing is, when you Brawl, you're usually hoping to kill their big guy with the brawl and keep some 1/1 token or something alive. This does the opposite. Hence a Brawl that always loses. Frankly, all it does is clear the little guys, which are rarely the problem, and again, if they are, you have Consecrate. Sure, you can only run 2 Consecrate, but there's no room in a competitive deck for a card which is only actually useful in a very narrow case.
The one thing that Enter the Coliseum has going for it is that you can have a minion on the board when you use it. But that just doesn't make up for the fact that it basically does nothing. I guess you can clear a board of Grim Patrons after they have already kicked your ass?
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On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote:
I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
Obviously, that's the life of a critic who judges things before they are out 
We have all screenshotted everyones individual ratings for future fun-making purposes and the ability to rub it into everyones noses if you made the correct prediction for a certain card
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Wow, King Varian is really the card to look out for! So many of the spoilers were getting 5 or less and he got a perfect 10! XD
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On August 22 2015 05:18 Daisyx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote:
I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months. Obviously, that's the life of a critic who judges things before they are out We have all screenshotted everyones individual ratings for future fun-making purposes and the ability to rub it into everyones noses if you made the correct prediction for a certain card
I'm just saying, whoever made this list really ought to have seen that turn 2 Shielded Minibot into turn 3 Fencing Coach into turn 4 Murloc Knight is a strong tempo play, or that Boneguard Lieutenant trades favorably with all the traditional Mech Mage 2-drops, or that Elemental Destruction does something that no other card in the game does because it's an insanely powerful effect, or that Magnataur Alpha can't actually be traded into by a 2-drop or a 3-drop, or that the reason Hunters don't lose control of the board early is that they're all early-midrange and that Powershot gives control a way to not just outright lose, or that Stablemaster is in fact available to a different class than Argent Protector and furthermore trades up rather than serving as a 2-damage nuke...
None of those mean that the cards in question are automatically bombs which are going to instantly take over the meta, but it does mean that all of the criticisms of them are narrow and that they have a ton of potential.
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On August 22 2015 05:36 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2015 05:18 Daisyx wrote:On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote:
I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months. Obviously, that's the life of a critic who judges things before they are out We have all screenshotted everyones individual ratings for future fun-making purposes and the ability to rub it into everyones noses if you made the correct prediction for a certain card I'm just saying, whoever made this list really ought to have seen that turn 2 Shielded Minibot into turn 3 Fencing Coach into turn 4 Murloc Knight is a strong tempo play, or that Boneguard Lieutenant trades favorably with all the traditional Mech Mage 2-drops, or that Elemental Destruction does something that no other card in the game does because it's an insanely powerful effect, or that Magnataur Alpha can't actually be traded into by a 2-drop or a 3-drop, or that the reason Hunters don't lose control of the board early is that they're all early-midrange and that Powershot gives control a way to not just outright lose, or that Stablemaster is in fact available to a different class than Argent Protector and furthermore trades up rather than serving as a 2-damage nuke... None of those mean that the cards in question are automatically bombs which are going to instantly take over the meta, but it does mean that all of the criticisms of them are narrow and that they have a ton of potential.
Am I missing something why can't a 2-3 drop trade into Magnataur Alpha?
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EPT
