Hi everyone and welcome to the final Liquidhearth card review where myself and other high level Hearthstone players and deck builders will discuss the new cards as they come out. We've finally made it through the whole spoiler, but you can find past weeks' articles here, here, here, and here.
Previously, we choose to rate the cards based on current and potential rating since we didn't know what else the set would bring. This time around, however, we have complete information and only need the one score.
Current Decks Which Have Gotten Stronger
While there are many new cards which open up new archetypes -- such as minion-based Rogues, Astral Communion decks, or Lock and Load Hunter decks -- there are also many existing decks which have been good in the past that got buffed significantly. Tempo Mage, for example, is getting Effigy, Polymorph: Boar, and possibly also things like Rhonin and Spellslinger. Even Eydis Darkbane if you run some form of a Spare Part Tempo Mage which is something that has been experimented with in the past.
The second contestant is Midrange Shaman. Though most of Shaman's new cards were in the first batch that was released: things like Tuskarr Totemic and Totem Golem will absolutely help solve the issues that Shamans have with getting early game board control. Healing Wave can also help against many aggro matchups and also things like Freeze Mage.
The last archetype that has received significant buffs is Token Druid: a deck that used to be extremely popular a year or so ago but hasn’t seen much play since GvG. While this kind of deck is still incredibly vulnerable to Patrons, it got many nice things -- such as Darnassus Aspirant, Druid of the Saber, and Living Roots -- which might be good enough to push this archetype back into the meta. Similarly all Druids got what is arguably the best hard removal in the game: Mulch which will enormously help them when it comes to dealing with big creatures.
Please keep in mind that this card rating is only about constructed. Cards are listed alphabetically.
This card looks like a cool combo with Unleash the Hounds or Dreadscale; but in reality, it just simply costs too much mana for the stats it gives.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 2
Arcane Blast
While this card looks nice, and definitely fits in with the magey theme, it most likely won’t see play. This is essentially an Arcane Shot that can’t hit face since it is quite rare for decks to run any kind of Spell Power.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 5
Bear Trap:
Value wise this card is a decent three drop for only two mana. The issue with this card is that, since most Hunters are aggro decks, it actually is quite uncommon for your opponents to hit your face. It can therefore take quite a while before this trap triggers. An upside of this card is that it automatically is a buff to all the other Hunter secrets since it sows confusion about what it might be and might lead people to play around Freezing/Explosive Trap etc.
Playable In
Mill Rogue Current Rating: 5
Beneath the Grounds:
This card is a massive tempo loss in exchange for massive potential value. Getting a single 4/4 for three mana is already value, let alone three. The issue with this card is that in most games at most ~15 or so cards are drawn, making it very unreliable and thus it is doubtful you will see more than two. In order to improve this you will need to run some form of milling cards or Coldlight Oracle. If your enemy draws this he will get to draw another card.
Playable In
Priest Current Rating: 3
Bolf Ramshield
This card is a bit hard to gauge since its mechanic is completely new. On the face of it, we see poor stats and the awkwardness that your face doesn't deal damage back. The question will be if Bolf is better than just a big Taunt.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Boneguard Lieutenant
This minions Inspire effect is just too underwhelming to make it playable anywhere.
Playable In
Backspace Rogue Pirate Rogue Current Rating: 4
Buccaneer:
This card gives your weapon +1 Attack, not the minion, so he might be good in Backspace Rogue where you are looking to win with a combination of cheap early minions and weapons. Similarly, the fact that this card is only one mana allows for you to use it in combos. In a way this card does the same thing as Auto-Barber which is already seeing play in some rogue lists.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Captured Jormungar:
This card actually has decent stats and this minion isn’t vulnerable to BGH; however, the main issue that this card has is that it does nothing for your board when you drop it. Its strength only pays off once you have attacked twice with it making it way to slow in the current meta game.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 3
Chillmaw
This is an interesting new Taunt which the Dragon decks really needed. The downside, however, is that your opponent can proc it and the effect is quite bad if you have a board: this is why Abomination does not see play. That said, Chillmaw has some interesting bluff potential.
Playable In
Secret Paladin Current Rating: 3
Competitive Spirit
For one mana this card is pretty good since it essentially has the same effect as Power of the Wild. The issue with this card is that it has fairly poor card quality which might not warrant running it if you get this on only one target. This is going to happen quite often since it is fairly easy to play around since you generally want to be clearing the Paladin's board anyways. As a result, this this card can only see play with Mysterious Challenger, which has a variety of other downsides discussed below.
Playable In
Control Priest Current Rating: 3
Confessor Paletress:
This card is in essence the same as Avianna, except this is something you play on turn nine with no control over the outcome whereas if you play Avianna you can choose which minion you play. What you need to keep in mind here is that the average quality of the legendaries is actually pretty poor: there are quite a few 8/8 legendaries but there are also plenty of smaller ones. While doing some calculations, it turns out that a third of all legendaries are worse than 5/5, which is far below the minimum needed to make this card playable.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 2
Convert:
This card is only good if the enemy has a big creature on the board or something very specific, which makes it very unreliable. It is better to just put a big minion in the deck yourself.
Playable In
Current Rating: 2
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Dalaran Aspirant
While the health/mana point for this card is okay, it will need to be buffed with an Inspire in order for it to be decent. This card is only good if you manage to get at least two Inspires off which likely won't be happening.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 2
Dark Bargain:
The issue with this card is that discarding is just still really bad: even with Tiny Knight and Fists of Jaraxxus. It will be very rare that you are so far behind that your enemy has two big dudes on the board which is the only situation that this card is superior to Siphon Soul. Any amount of small fodder on the board could make hitting the right targets difficult. While the idea is cool there just isn’t enough support for discarding cards to warrant playing it.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Dragonhawk Rider:
This card suffers from the same issue as every other Windfury card will suffer from until the end of time: Windfury is just too expensively budgeted so it will never be viable unless it is combined with Charge. This card not only loses in stats to pay for Windfury but it also needs to be Inspired!
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 5
Dreadscale:
This is the other piece of the Acidmaw combo; however, unlike his more expensive brother this card actually has a pretty okay amount of stats for his cost. Dreadscale also provides a nice effect which makes him an ideal counter to Unleash the Hounds or Imp-losion and allows you to remove any big minion you want in combination with Hunters Mark.
Playable In
Malygos/Ancestors Call Current Rating: 3
Elemental Destruction:
The only instance in which this card is playable is if you can remove the Overload with Lava Shock: making this card only playable after turn five. If you can’t clear the Overload with Lava Shock there is no point using this card to get back on the board since you will just lose control of it again next turn.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 2
Enter the Coliseum
This card is just a more expensive and worse version of Brawl.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Evil Heckler:
This is essentially a power creeped version of Bootybay Bodyguard but it is still bad since you usually want Taunt minions with more health than attack. This minion is still completely unplayable. Honestly power creep isn’t an issue unless it starts buffing minions that are actually seeing play or are on the verge of seeing play. Neither Booty Bay Bodyguard nor Magma Rager were anywhere close to seeing play so creeping them was totally reasonable.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Fearsome Doomguard:
This card is a buff to Bane of Doom -- assuming the new cards will be added -- but its board presence just does fairly little overall. The card is also immune to BGH, which might make it good in a deck that doesn’t run BGH targets, but still wants some form of strong late game minion.
Playable In
Inspire Deck Current Rating: 4
Fencing Coach:
This will be a staple in every Inspire deck. Whether or not it sees play will depend on the Inspires themselves, but this is what the deck is looking for.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Frigid Snobold:
While Blizzard seems to be pushing Spell Damage as a bit of a theme this expansion it just isn’t that good and also two attack minions trade very poorly.
Playable In
Midrange Shaman Current Rating: 5
Healing Wave
This is pretty good for Shamans because they often lack a way of coming back from face damage against Face Hunter or Freeze Mage and this card will almost certainly win Jousts against both of them. The issue is that this card is almost 100% dead against most other control decks unless you run some form of weapon that makes you take damage yourself. If you manage to win a Joust with this card then the healing can be absolutely insane and it can 100% allow you to win an Aggro matchup: it might be worth running the card just for that.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Ice Rager
This card is the power creeped version of Magma Rager, I went into why I think that power creep is okay earlier so no need to repeat that again. Needless to say that this card is still unplayable.
Playable In
Control Hunter Current Rating: 5
King's Elekk:
This card looks pretty amazing, however, this kind of card would only fit in a control-style Hunter deck with expensive minions. In fact, all the cards announced for Hunter this week will only work well in a more control-oriented Hunter, which is something that is really counter intuitive when it comes to the current Hunter cards and their Hero Power. Maybe this is something that will work with the newly released cards but it is extremely hard to judge.
Playable In
Beast Druid Current Rating: 4
Knight of the Wild
Similar to Bolvarr, this card only starts to get discounted when you have it in your hand. For a vanilla 6/6 to be good it needs to cost five mana at most and more likely three or four. This requires it to be in your hand for quite a while making it not very reliable.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Kvaldir Raider
This card is almost exactly the same as Floating Watcher except it doesn’t have the demon synergy and Floating Watcher isn’t currently seeing any play to begin with.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 2
Lights Champion
This card is just too situational, especially since the vast majority of demons don’t even have an effect worth Silencing.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Magnataur Alpha:
This has the same effect as Foe Reaper which doesn't seem to be in high demand. Its health point is so poor that it will almost always die the turn it gets played thus completely negating its effect. There are also no Warrior decks in which you would currently consider playing this card.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Mogor's Champion:
Stats are very awkward and nothing yet has been worth the 50-50 Ogre drawback.
Playable In
All Druid Decks Current Rating: 7
Mulch:
Druid has traditionally struggled with removing big creatures because Naturalize gives the enemy too big of a card advantage and Recycle is too slow to see play. This card fits the exact niche that Druids are looking for in removal. This card is basically Sap: a card that gives massive tempo advantages and would probably see play in the majority of decks. The difference is that Mulch costs one more mana but makes the card you draw much worse since the value of a random minion is often quite poor.
The question is, however, what do you cut for it? Druid already runs both Wrath and Swipe which are most of the time better than this card. Do you really need six removal spells?
Playable In
Murloc Paladin Current Rating: 2
Murloc Knight
In general you don’t want to be using Hero Power in a deck like murlocs which is very aggro/tribe based. This card could only be good in the very late game when you have mana to spare but Paladin just doesn’t have any other murloc synergies besides this guy.
Playable In
Secret Paladin Current Rating: 6
Mysterious Challenger:
This minion's effect is pretty amazing: he is essentially a Mad Scientist on steroids. The issue with this card is that Paladin secrets are pretty poor. The only two Paladin secrets you usually want to play are Avenge and possibly Competitive Spirit. Also Paladin secrets are kind of all-over the place when it comes to their effects and don’t really have a theme or synergy. Another issue is that this card is six mana and in order for this card to be playable you need to get at least three secrets on the board with it. The chances of having that many secrets drawn in the early game are pretty big so by the time you can play this you will already be very far behind because you have to play poor quality cards.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Orgrimmar Aspirant:
This card's body is simply too weak for a three-drop. In the early parts of the game you don’t really care that much about buffing your weapons: both Fiery War Axe and Death’s Bite hit the majority of cards being played in the early game.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 3
Pit Fighter:
This card is essentially a Boulderfist Ogre/Chillwind Yeti for the five mana slot. The lack of immediate impact, however, does still mean it needs to stick for at least a turn. The six health is nice though since Fireball is the only spell that will trade 1-for-1.
Playable In
Tempo Mage Current Rating: 6
Polymorph: Boar:
Versatility is the name of the game for this card since it can both be used to buff your own minion or allow it to attack twice on the same turn. It does both these things while simultaneously having almost the same effect as the normal Polymorph. Another way to look at this card is that it increases the reach of a Tempo Mage significantly: it allows you to do four damage to your opponents face while keeping a decent body on the board. I foresee many Tempo Mages trying this out.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Power Word: Glory:
This card is like Blessing of Wisdom but only good against aggro decks.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 3
Powershot:
This card is a mix between a Explosive Shot and Consecration. While it might seem that a cheaper Concecrate is good, Hunter’s don’t really lose control of the board this early and don’t need the effect that much. They don’t have Equality which severely buffs the value of Consecration.
Playable In
Control Hunter Current Rating: 6
Ram Wrangler
This is again a card that would be good in a control-oriented Hunter. After looking at the possible outcomes for beasts a random beast is actually quite often good with an average value of 3.5 mana. Even the below average outcomes for this card can still be decent and a few high-mana outcomes have the potential to just straight-up win the game.The five mana slot for Hunters is quite often either empty or occupied only by Loatheb so this card not very difficult to fit it in there.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Recruiter:
Drawing you a one mana 2/2 is good but neither card are very high impact.
Playable In
Midrange Paladin Midrange Shaman Current Rating: 5
Refreshment Vendor:
This card is really good for control decks against aggro since it both provides a minion that can trade while simultaneously dragging out the game. This card could be good in decks that want to run Healbot but can’t because they will lack value cards against control.
The fact that it also heals the enemy is often negligible since most of the time neither shaman nor Paladins are looking to burst down enemies but rather slowly whittle them down with efficient minions.
Playable In
Tempo Mage Grinder Mage Current Rating: 6
Rhonin
While this card looks really nice as an eight mana Dr. Boom, it is quite slow and generally may not be something that Tempo Mages want to run. On the other hand, its Deathrattle is amazing in the sense that it provides a three-mana Avenging Wrath that has bonus synergy with the other cards in a Tempo Mages deck: Mana Wyrm, Flamewaker, Antonidas etc. While there are some Tempo Mages that have run slow cards like Ragnaros or Boom, it remains to be seen if this card isn’t too slow to be useful in Tempo Mage.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 2
Saboteur:
Could be good if Inspire decks are good. Unlike Loatheb, however, Hero Powers are much less valuable than spells.
Playable In
Midrange Paladin Current Rating: 3
Seal of Champions:
This card is essentially a blend of two different cards: Blessing of Might and Hand of Protection for an added mana. While both of these buffs are narrow, this card could surpass them both as a cheaper alternative to the already popular Blessing of Kings.
Playable In
Combo Priest Current Rating: 5
Shadowfiend:
Priests usually don’t play Emperor so they don’t really value the discount in mana that this card provides. The only way this card is good is in either some form of Combo Priest -- Auchnai-Flash Heal -- or if you can combine it with more than one draw per turn.
Playable In
Pirate Rogue Current Rating: 3
Shady Dealer:
If Pirate Rogue is good, this card is will be good since there are plenty of early game pirates. If you can get one of your early pirates to stick then this guy is well above curve.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Sideshow Spelleater:
This card is likely too situational. This is a cool option to play against Warlock or if Justicar Trueheart becomes the next Dr. Boom.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 4
Sparring Partner
It is an okay card in itself but there are no current Warrior archetype in which this is a good card: you rarely have anything worth protecting and you don’t mind people hitting your face. This card does make Bolster and King’s Defender -- two; cards currently with low ranking -- slightly better. Taunt wise this card is a worse version of sunfury protector for your own board.
This card does, however, allow you to target enemy minions making them vulnerable to Black Knight and preventing enemies from hiding certain minions behind a wall of taunts. Another issue with this card is that most Warrior decks already have plenty of two-drops.
Playable In
Face Priest Current Rating: 2
Spawn of Shadows:
This card could only see play in some sort of a aggro Priest; however. you don’t want to be using Hero Power in an aggro deck. Furthermore, a 5/4 is bad since it trades for free against Shredders.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 2
Stablemaster:
This card is in almost all situations the exactly the same as Argent Protector which is currently not seeing play in the first place. The major difference is that it costs one more and it can only target beasts making it actually quite hard to properly pull off the effect.
Playable In
Control Shaman Current Rating: 5
The Mistcaller
In a sense this card is similar to Sword of Justice, which only sees fairly little play. Shaman is also a deck that does very well in the late game because of their Hero Power so they don’t generally need more tools to make that late game even better. In a way this card works similar to Emperor, except it gives more value and less tempo.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 2
Tiny Knight of Evil
While this card looks decent since its base stats don’t suffer anything from its effect. The discard mechanics, however, just aren’t reliable enough to warrant running this card.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Tournament Attendee
While 2/1 minions are generally better than 1/2 minions for one mana you don’t want your Taunts to be that cheap since they accomplish almost nothing.
Playable In
Dragon Decks Current Rating: 7
Twilight Guardian
This is really what Dragon decks are missing. This is a solid dragon which comes down early and can bridge you easily into the late game.
Playable In
Current Rating: 3
Undercity Valiant:
This card is good tempo if you can coin it or combo it early. The issue is, however, that your opponent won't always have something worth killing so the investment is not really worth it.
Playable In
Control Warrior Current Rating: 10
Varian
This card is amazing in Control Warrior. If you summon one of your big legendaries, this card can straight-up win the game. This card would fit right in the existing Control Warrior lists: possibly in exchange for a Sylvanas or Ysera. Varian has two issues though, the first is that Control Warrior currently already has quite a few spells and weapons (10-14) so you can miss. The second issue is that you also have quite a few Battlecry/cheap minions which make it somewhat unreliable.
On the other hand of course, is the fact that you have plenty of expensive minions as well which, if summoned through Varian, can single-handedly win the game. With the Inspire and Joust mechanics in TGT, the meta is most likely going to slow down which can make this card an excellent addition to Control Warrior.
Playable In
--- Current Rating: 1
Void Crusher:
This card competes for one of the worst cards in the set. It's stats are equivalent to a bad four-drop while it’s Inspire is super unreliable: he can even kill himself! The only way in which this minion could work if it was somehow exempt from its own effect. Even in that case it would still be mediocre at best.
Playable In
Beast Druid Current Rating: 4
Wildwalker:
This card suffers from the same fate as many other four mana minions: it dies to Shredder. What's more, most beasts outside of Haunted Creeper aren’t very sticky so it can be tough to find a target. This card is also slightly worse than Houndmaster since the Taunt and extra attack are generally better than an extra health.
Playable In
Dragon Priest Current Rating: 4
Wyrmrest Agent
This card looks strong but it requires a Dragon Priest deck to fully function. There were some people that tried it out after BRM but the general consensus was that Dragon Priest is bad. It may have a resurgence now but who knows.
Thanks everyone for your time and if you have any questions/comments feel free to ask!
Argent Protector not seeing play? Are you crazy? He's in every aggro paladin, as he allows your weaker stuff to trade up if they don't get cleared. Also ive had someone add me once to rage at me because he kept taking the shield of minibot and I reapplied it twice with these two.
And about Varian....I am not entirely sure. Yes, he may bring wallet warrior back. But even then, if you didn't draw acolyte and other small stuff before you play him, he may just whiff. Well it still brings out bodies in control warrior that would be over 10 mana cost total and that's still good....but I dunno if you want a Cruel Taskmaster off of Varian for example...
On August 22 2015 00:18 blackguard4 wrote: Argent Protector not seeing play? Are you crazy? He's in every aggro paladin, as he allows your weaker stuff to trade up if they don't get cleared. Also ive had someone add me once to rage at me because he kept taking the shield of minibot and I reapplied it twice with these two.
And about Varian....I am not entirely sure. Yes, he may bring wallet warrior back. But even then, if you didn't draw acolyte and other small stuff before you play him, he may just whiff. Well it still brings out bodies in control warrior that would be over 10 mana cost total and that's still good....but I dunno if you want a Cruel Taskmaster off of Varian for example...
I mean even with Argent Protector resurfacing doesn't change the fact that for the most part Stablemaster is a worse Houndmaster
On August 22 2015 00:18 blackguard4 wrote: Argent Protector not seeing play? Are you crazy? He's in every aggro paladin, as he allows your weaker stuff to trade up if they don't get cleared. Also ive had someone add me once to rage at me because he kept taking the shield of minibot and I reapplied it twice with these two.
And about Varian....I am not entirely sure. Yes, he may bring wallet warrior back. But even then, if you didn't draw acolyte and other small stuff before you play him, he may just whiff. Well it still brings out bodies in control warrior that would be over 10 mana cost total and that's still good....but I dunno if you want a Cruel Taskmaster off of Varian for example...
I mean even with Argent Protector resurfacing doesn't change the fact that for the most part Stablemaster is a worse Houndmaster
Yeah, that's true. But it is a chance for hunters to use the same tactic maybe....Though I'm not sure where I'd use Stablemaster. Do you run it in smOrc? midrage? I feel control has better cards for that slot...I guess we'll have to see on monday. If I get it from the packs, I may try it out right then to see what can be done.
On August 22 2015 00:13 Drazerk wrote: I think you misread Mistcaller's effect wrong. It doesn't do anything to minions on board
Hmm sorry I can understand that the wording looks abit strange, what I mean to say is that the effect of the mistcaller only starts to be good when you have managed to play 4 cards or more, which is extremely slow and greedy
On August 22 2015 00:13 Drazerk wrote: I think you misread Mistcaller's effect wrong. It doesn't do anything to minions on board
Hmm sorry I can understand that the wording looks abit strange, what I mean to say is that the effect of the mistcaller only starts to be good when you have managed to play 4 cards or more, which is extremely slow and greedy
On August 22 2015 00:18 blackguard4 wrote: Argent Protector not seeing play? Are you crazy? He's in every aggro paladin, as he allows your weaker stuff to trade up if they don't get cleared. Also ive had someone add me once to rage at me because he kept taking the shield of minibot and I reapplied it twice with these two.
And about Varian....I am not entirely sure. Yes, he may bring wallet warrior back. But even then, if you didn't draw acolyte and other small stuff before you play him, he may just whiff. Well it still brings out bodies in control warrior that would be over 10 mana cost total and that's still good....but I dunno if you want a Cruel Taskmaster off of Varian for example...
I dunno, both the aggro paladin list that I got legend with and wrote a guide about (http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/491436-aggro-paladin-where-the-face-is-usually-the-place) as well as the list created by archons justsayan doesn't run argent protector and honestly I am not seeing him that much in high level play.
I completely agree that he has some bad draws (though even 3 draws are good) but you need to keep in mind that by the time you play this card the vast majority of your low mana cost minions will have been played so your odds are actually better than on a full deck
On August 22 2015 00:18 blackguard4 wrote: Argent Protector not seeing play? Are you crazy? He's in every aggro paladin, as he allows your weaker stuff to trade up if they don't get cleared. Also ive had someone add me once to rage at me because he kept taking the shield of minibot and I reapplied it twice with these two.
And about Varian....I am not entirely sure. Yes, he may bring wallet warrior back. But even then, if you didn't draw acolyte and other small stuff before you play him, he may just whiff. Well it still brings out bodies in control warrior that would be over 10 mana cost total and that's still good....but I dunno if you want a Cruel Taskmaster off of Varian for example...
I mean even with Argent Protector resurfacing doesn't change the fact that for the most part Stablemaster is a worse Houndmaster
Yeah, that's true. But it is a chance for hunters to use the same tactic maybe....Though I'm not sure where I'd use Stablemaster. Do you run it in smOrc? midrage? I feel control has better cards for that slot...I guess we'll have to see on monday. If I get it from the packs, I may try it out right then to see what can be done.
It is a card you want to run in control-oriented beast hunter decks, which is an archetype that probably won't be seeing much play, hence why it is rated so poorly everywhere
On August 22 2015 00:18 blackguard4 wrote: Argent Protector not seeing play? Are you crazy? He's in every aggro paladin, as he allows your weaker stuff to trade up if they don't get cleared. Also ive had someone add me once to rage at me because he kept taking the shield of minibot and I reapplied it twice with these two.
And about Varian....I am not entirely sure. Yes, he may bring wallet warrior back. But even then, if you didn't draw acolyte and other small stuff before you play him, he may just whiff. Well it still brings out bodies in control warrior that would be over 10 mana cost total and that's still good....but I dunno if you want a Cruel Taskmaster off of Varian for example...
I mean even with Argent Protector resurfacing doesn't change the fact that for the most part Stablemaster is a worse Houndmaster
Yeah, that's true. But it is a chance for hunters to use the same tactic maybe....Though I'm not sure where I'd use Stablemaster. Do you run it in smOrc? midrage? I feel control has better cards for that slot...I guess we'll have to see on monday. If I get it from the packs, I may try it out right then to see what can be done.
It is a card you want to run in control-oriented beast hunter decks, which is an archetype that probably won't be seeing much play, hence why it is rated so poorly everywhere
I think it might see a little play with Elekk / Powershot / Lock n Load existing but it'll be really niche
On August 22 2015 00:18 blackguard4 wrote: Argent Protector not seeing play? Are you crazy? He's in every aggro paladin, as he allows your weaker stuff to trade up if they don't get cleared. Also ive had someone add me once to rage at me because he kept taking the shield of minibot and I reapplied it twice with these two.
And about Varian....I am not entirely sure. Yes, he may bring wallet warrior back. But even then, if you didn't draw acolyte and other small stuff before you play him, he may just whiff. Well it still brings out bodies in control warrior that would be over 10 mana cost total and that's still good....but I dunno if you want a Cruel Taskmaster off of Varian for example...
I mean even with Argent Protector resurfacing doesn't change the fact that for the most part Stablemaster is a worse Houndmaster
Yeah, that's true. But it is a chance for hunters to use the same tactic maybe....Though I'm not sure where I'd use Stablemaster. Do you run it in smOrc? midrage? I feel control has better cards for that slot...I guess we'll have to see on monday. If I get it from the packs, I may try it out right then to see what can be done.
It is a card you want to run in control-oriented beast hunter decks, which is an archetype that probably won't be seeing much play, hence why it is rated so poorly everywhere
I think it might see a little play with Elekk / Powershot / Lock n Load existing but it'll be really niche
I dunno, you can't really want beasts in a hunter combo deck tbh
On August 22 2015 00:18 blackguard4 wrote: Argent Protector not seeing play? Are you crazy? He's in every aggro paladin, as he allows your weaker stuff to trade up if they don't get cleared. Also ive had someone add me once to rage at me because he kept taking the shield of minibot and I reapplied it twice with these two.
And about Varian....I am not entirely sure. Yes, he may bring wallet warrior back. But even then, if you didn't draw acolyte and other small stuff before you play him, he may just whiff. Well it still brings out bodies in control warrior that would be over 10 mana cost total and that's still good....but I dunno if you want a Cruel Taskmaster off of Varian for example...
I mean even with Argent Protector resurfacing doesn't change the fact that for the most part Stablemaster is a worse Houndmaster
Yeah, that's true. But it is a chance for hunters to use the same tactic maybe....Though I'm not sure where I'd use Stablemaster. Do you run it in smOrc? midrage? I feel control has better cards for that slot...I guess we'll have to see on monday. If I get it from the packs, I may try it out right then to see what can be done.
It is a card you want to run in control-oriented beast hunter decks, which is an archetype that probably won't be seeing much play, hence why it is rated so poorly everywhere
I think it might see a little play with Elekk / Powershot / Lock n Load existing but it'll be really niche
I dunno, you can't really want beasts in a hunter combo deck tbh
Oh I agree with that but I think ruling control hunter out completely is a little unfair
For Enter the Coliseum: "This card is just a more expensive and worse version of Brawl."
I feel like you guys got lazy when you wrote about this card, that assessment looks totally unreasonable to me. I might agree with you if it was a Warrior card. Paladins are lacking in hard removal without Equality and they can manipulate the attack of enemy minions, the card is much better than you're giving it credit for. I have the sneaking feeling that it's not the only card that will surprise you.
On August 22 2015 01:53 NewSunshine wrote: For Enter the Coliseum: "This card is just a more expensive and worse version of Brawl."
I feel like you guys got lazy when you wrote about this card, that assessment looks totally unreasonable to me. I might agree with you if it was a Warrior card. Paladins are lacking in hard removal without Equality and they can manipulate the attack of enemy minions, the card is much better than you're giving it credit for. I have the sneaking feeling that it's not the only card that will surprise you.
I agree - this kind of effect seems like one of the ones that would tend to be very difficult to analyze in your head/in a vacuum without being able to see it in effect. It could potentially go well with the 1 Equality most midrange pallies are running right now.
On August 22 2015 01:53 NewSunshine wrote: For Enter the Coliseum: "This card is just a more expensive and worse version of Brawl."
I feel like you guys got lazy when you wrote about this card, that assessment looks totally unreasonable to me. I might agree with you if it was a Warrior card. Paladins are lacking in hard removal without Equality and they can manipulate the attack of enemy minions, the card is much better than you're giving it credit for. I have the sneaking feeling that it's not the only card that will surprise you.
I agree - this kind of effect seems like one of the ones that would tend to be very difficult to analyze in your head/in a vacuum without being able to see it in effect. It could potentially go well with the 1 Equality most midrange pallies are running right now.
gives aldor peacekeeper more combo uses also. I think it has the potential to be really good.
I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote: I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs
On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote: I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs
this is exactly why its badly evaluated, I don't think you only consider it in a murloc deck, its an inspire card, i've just done the maths and the average stats you get from the inspire is the 1/1 dude + a 2.08/2.42 murloc. This doesn't include the +2/+1 stats you get from the warleader or the +1 atk from old murk eye or the 1/1 murloc. On turn 6 with a hero power this guy throws out on average 6/7 stats in 3 separate bodies all with synergy. If he gets more than 1 inspire off its actually insane value.
On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote: I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs
this is exactly why its badly evaluated, I don't think you only consider it in a murloc deck, its an inspire card, i've just done the maths and the average stats you get from the inspire is the 1/1 dude + a 2.08/2.42 murloc. This doesn't include the +2/+1 stats you get from the warleader or the +1 atk from old murk eye. On turn 6 with a hero power this guy throws out on average 6/7 stats in 3 separate bodies all with synergy. If he gets more than 1 inspire off its actually insane value.
When is a 4 health minion ever going to survive more than 1 turn on turn 6 though? We already play Thaurissan only expecting it to survive 1 turn
On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote: I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs
this is exactly why its badly evaluated, I don't think you only consider it in a murloc deck, its an inspire card, i've just done the maths and the average stats you get from the inspire is the 1/1 dude + a 2.08/2.42 murloc. This doesn't include the +2/+1 stats you get from the warleader or the +1 atk from old murk eye. On turn 6 with a hero power this guy throws out on average 6/7 stats in 3 separate bodies all with synergy. If he gets more than 1 inspire off its actually insane value.
When is a 4 health minion ever going to survive more than 1 turn on turn 6 though? We already play Thaurissan only expecting it to survive 1 turn
It doesn't need to survive all the time, if its on average a bolderfist ogre on turn 6 with synergy benefits that isn't vulnerable to single target removal and a part of it is pretty much a must kill. The must kill part of it in itself can generate tempo/intiative especially against classes like druid. Its also flexible in that it has the option to be played on turn 4 as a body that has to be killed. How can a card like that be rated 2/10? It's just stupid/lazy evaluation.
Edit: These are the stats you get with the 4 best murlocs; each has a 1/12 chance of happening:
Murloc Warleader: 3/4 + 3/3 + 1/1 with a +2/+1 buff for the murloc knight: Total stats: 9/9 for 6 mana
Murloc Knight: 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/1 with two must kill targets Total stats: 7/9 for 6 mana
Old Murk Eye: 3/4 + 3/4 with charge + 1/1 Total stats: 7/9 for 6 mana
Siltfin Spiritwalker: 3/4 + 2/5 + 1/1 draw a card if your knight dies before the 2/5. Total stats: 6/10 for 6 mana
On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote: I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs
this is exactly why its badly evaluated, I don't think you only consider it in a murloc deck, its an inspire card, i've just done the maths and the average stats you get from the inspire is the 1/1 dude + a 2.08/2.42 murloc. This doesn't include the +2/+1 stats you get from the warleader or the +1 atk from old murk eye. On turn 6 with a hero power this guy throws out on average 6/7 stats in 3 separate bodies all with synergy. If he gets more than 1 inspire off its actually insane value.
When is a 4 health minion ever going to survive more than 1 turn on turn 6 though? We already play Thaurissan only expecting it to survive 1 turn
That's the point though. The threat of having Thaurissan on the board for more than one turn is so large that you have to kill it or you will very likely lose. The Murloc Knight is similar, if you let it live, I can keep throwing out tons of small bodies, which is fantastic against aggro. If you kill it as soon as I play it, then that's one less hit I take to the face - that's the whole purpose of the Inspire mechanic really, to create cards that become more threatening the longer you leave them alone.
Also keep in mind that while you play a minion expecting it to die the next turn, the fact is sometimes they live for another couple turns. It's not really fair to say it will always die immediately, and is therefore awful.
On August 22 2015 03:54 Zaros wrote: Edit: These are the stats you get with the 4 best murlocs; each has a 1/12 chance of happening:
Murloc Warleader: 3/4 + 3/3 + 1/1 with a +2/+1 buff for the murloc knight: Total stats: 9/9 for 6 mana
Murloc Knight: 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/1 with two must kill targets Total stats: 7/9
Old Murk Eye: 3/4 + 3/4 with charge + 1/1 Total stats: 7/9
Siltfin Spiritwalker: 3/4 + 2/5 + 1/1 draw a card if your knight dies before the 2/5. Total stats: 6/10
Is the Murloc Knight itself included in the maths? I would count getting a 2nd Murloc Knight among the best possible outcomes, nevermind me. After thinking about it I like the card a lot. Not as an attempt to push Murlocs onto Paladins, but just because it's so solid-looking.
On August 22 2015 03:54 Zaros wrote: Edit: These are the stats you get with the 4 best murlocs; each has a 1/12 chance of happening:
Murloc Warleader: 3/4 + 3/3 + 1/1 with a +2/+1 buff for the murloc knight: Total stats: 9/9 for 6 mana
Murloc Knight: 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/1 with two must kill targets Total stats: 7/9
Old Murk Eye: 3/4 + 3/4 with charge + 1/1 Total stats: 7/9
Siltfin Spiritwalker: 3/4 + 2/5 + 1/1 draw a card if your knight dies before the 2/5. Total stats: 6/10
Is the Murloc Knight itself included in the maths? I would count getting a 2nd Murloc Knight among the best possible outcomes, and after thinking about it I like the card a lot. Not as an attempt to push Murlocs onto Paladins, but just because it's so solid-looking.
The murloc knight is the one labelled as murloc knight with the "two must kill targets"
On August 22 2015 03:54 Zaros wrote: Edit: These are the stats you get with the 4 best murlocs; each has a 1/12 chance of happening:
Murloc Warleader: 3/4 + 3/3 + 1/1 with a +2/+1 buff for the murloc knight: Total stats: 9/9 for 6 mana
Murloc Knight: 3/4 + 3/4 + 1/1 with two must kill targets Total stats: 7/9
Old Murk Eye: 3/4 + 3/4 with charge + 1/1 Total stats: 7/9
Siltfin Spiritwalker: 3/4 + 2/5 + 1/1 draw a card if your knight dies before the 2/5. Total stats: 6/10
Is the Murloc Knight itself included in the maths? I would count getting a 2nd Murloc Knight among the best possible outcomes, and after thinking about it I like the card a lot. Not as an attempt to push Murlocs onto Paladins, but just because it's so solid-looking.
The murloc knight is the one labelled as murloc knight with the "two must kill targets"
Move along, that's just me being stupid. My bad yo.
On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote: I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
this completely, giving almost every card a less than 50% rating just based off of the fact they don't fit into a current tier 1 deck list just showcases poor deckbuilding ability. A ton of these cards are going to be fantastic tech or open up new deck types. I can't help but laugh at most of these reviews
On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote: I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
Given how pessimistic they have been about almost everything, this is a given.
Seriously though, these ratings talk about potential new decks that cards can fit in, then still dismiss cards tailor made for new deck styles because they have no current viability.
I mean I understand that a new deck archetype is hard to predict and is something that actually rarely becomes viable, but there's these rating still carry a lot of bias for evaluating things based on current deck types.
On August 22 2015 01:53 NewSunshine wrote: For Enter the Coliseum: "This card is just a more expensive and worse version of Brawl."
I feel like you guys got lazy when you wrote about this card, that assessment looks totally unreasonable to me. I might agree with you if it was a Warrior card. Paladins are lacking in hard removal without Equality and they can manipulate the attack of enemy minions, the card is much better than you're giving it credit for. I have the sneaking feeling that it's not the only card that will surprise you.
I agree - this kind of effect seems like one of the ones that would tend to be very difficult to analyze in your head/in a vacuum without being able to see it in effect. It could potentially go well with the 1 Equality most midrange pallies are running right now.
It did seem like a very short explanation, but when I reviewed the cards with a friend of mine a few days ago I said almost the exact same thing. I said "This is like a brawl that always loses."
Here's the thing:
Your opponent is never gonna have a lot of big guys out at once. If he does, you are better off with Equality + Consecrate or just Equality + trade a bunch of dudes.
The most likely scenario is that your opponent has a big threat (or a couple medium threats), and some 1/1 tokens, in which case Consecrate still does more for less.
The card is very similar to Brawl. The thing is, when you Brawl, you're usually hoping to kill their big guy with the brawl and keep some 1/1 token or something alive. This does the opposite. Hence a Brawl that always loses. Frankly, all it does is clear the little guys, which are rarely the problem, and again, if they are, you have Consecrate. Sure, you can only run 2 Consecrate, but there's no room in a competitive deck for a card which is only actually useful in a very narrow case.
The one thing that Enter the Coliseum has going for it is that you can have a minion on the board when you use it. But that just doesn't make up for the fact that it basically does nothing. I guess you can clear a board of Grim Patrons after they have already kicked your ass?
On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote: I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
Obviously, that's the life of a critic who judges things before they are out We have all screenshotted everyones individual ratings for future fun-making purposes and the ability to rub it into everyones noses if you made the correct prediction for a certain card
On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote: I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
Obviously, that's the life of a critic who judges things before they are out We have all screenshotted everyones individual ratings for future fun-making purposes and the ability to rub it into everyones noses if you made the correct prediction for a certain card
I'm just saying, whoever made this list really ought to have seen that turn 2 Shielded Minibot into turn 3 Fencing Coach into turn 4 Murloc Knight is a strong tempo play, or that Boneguard Lieutenant trades favorably with all the traditional Mech Mage 2-drops, or that Elemental Destruction does something that no other card in the game does because it's an insanely powerful effect, or that Magnataur Alpha can't actually be traded into by a 2-drop or a 3-drop, or that the reason Hunters don't lose control of the board early is that they're all early-midrange and that Powershot gives control a way to not just outright lose, or that Stablemaster is in fact available to a different class than Argent Protector and furthermore trades up rather than serving as a 2-damage nuke...
None of those mean that the cards in question are automatically bombs which are going to instantly take over the meta, but it does mean that all of the criticisms of them are narrow and that they have a ton of potential.
On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote: I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
Obviously, that's the life of a critic who judges things before they are out We have all screenshotted everyones individual ratings for future fun-making purposes and the ability to rub it into everyones noses if you made the correct prediction for a certain card
I'm just saying, whoever made this list really ought to have seen that turn 2 Shielded Minibot into turn 3 Fencing Coach into turn 4 Murloc Knight is a strong tempo play, or that Boneguard Lieutenant trades favorably with all the traditional Mech Mage 2-drops, or that Elemental Destruction does something that no other card in the game does because it's an insanely powerful effect, or that Magnataur Alpha can't actually be traded into by a 2-drop or a 3-drop, or that the reason Hunters don't lose control of the board early is that they're all early-midrange and that Powershot gives control a way to not just outright lose, or that Stablemaster is in fact available to a different class than Argent Protector and furthermore trades up rather than serving as a 2-damage nuke...
None of those mean that the cards in question are automatically bombs which are going to instantly take over the meta, but it does mean that all of the criticisms of them are narrow and that they have a ton of potential.
Am I missing something why can't a 2-3 drop trade into Magnataur Alpha?
On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote: I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
I dunno what you call pessimistic, but you need to keep in mind that in the current meta maybe 1 out of every 10-20 cards will actually see high-level constructed play, so thats the standard that we are rating for. While murloc knight would be a strong in a standard murloc deck, paladin just has nothing to support murlocs which is why we rated it poorly. Also chillmaw is honestly just a propped-up version of abomination Dark bargain discards 2 cards, which is honestly not something you want to happen if you are playing a control deck also its effect is random Enter the colliseum is 1 more mana then brawl and guarantees that the best enemy minion lives, I don't honestly know how you can defend a card like that: equality-concecrate does infinitely better
I do not beleive Magnataur Alpha procs the splash damage when dealing damage, so when he gets attacked by an opposing 2 or 3 drop he won't wipe the opposing board.
If I'm wrong, then that's probably waht Acritter means, he's a poison pill to attack into if you're aggro / zoo.
On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote: I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
this completely, giving almost every card a less than 50% rating just based off of the fact they don't fit into a current tier 1 deck list just showcases poor deckbuilding ability. A ton of these cards are going to be fantastic tech or open up new deck types. I can't help but laugh at most of these reviews
I dunno if you watched the other previews, but there we rated the cards both on current strength and on potential strengths, however like it says in the post we opt not to do that here since all the cards are known now and we have a pretty good overview
On August 22 2015 06:44 Wuster wrote: I do not beleive Magnataur Alpha procs the splash damage when dealing damage, so when he gets attacked by an opposing 2 or 3 drop he won't wipe the opposing board.
If I'm wrong, then that's probably waht Acritter means, he's a poison pill to attack into if you're aggro / zoo.
I'm like 90% certain it'll just work like Foe Reaper 4000 does but if you're running an aggro deck you're likely not gonna have too many minions on board by t5 given thats when most board clears come out anyway
On August 22 2015 06:44 Wuster wrote: I do not beleive Magnataur Alpha procs the splash damage when dealing damage, so when he gets attacked by an opposing 2 or 3 drop he won't wipe the opposing board.
If I'm wrong, then that's probably waht Acritter means, he's a poison pill to attack into if you're aggro / zoo.
The wording is exactly the same as foe reaper: he will only do split damage when he is the one attacking
On August 22 2015 01:38 Acritter wrote: I'm pretty sure this list will turn out to have some extremely embarrassing oversights in the next couple months.
Obviously, that's the life of a critic who judges things before they are out We have all screenshotted everyones individual ratings for future fun-making purposes and the ability to rub it into everyones noses if you made the correct prediction for a certain card
I'm just saying, whoever made this list really ought to have seen that turn 2 Shielded Minibot into turn 3 Fencing Coach into turn 4 Murloc Knight is a strong tempo play, or that Boneguard Lieutenant trades favorably with all the traditional Mech Mage 2-drops, or that Elemental Destruction does something that no other card in the game does because it's an insanely powerful effect, or that Magnataur Alpha can't actually be traded into by a 2-drop or a 3-drop, or that the reason Hunters don't lose control of the board early is that they're all early-midrange and that Powershot gives control a way to not just outright lose, or that Stablemaster is in fact available to a different class than Argent Protector and furthermore trades up rather than serving as a 2-damage nuke...
None of those mean that the cards in question are automatically bombs which are going to instantly take over the meta, but it does mean that all of the criticisms of them are narrow and that they have a ton of potential.
Am I missing something why can't a 2-3 drop trade into Magnataur Alpha?
Sorry for late response. Because it kills the other 2-3 drop they have in play. Yes, there are also situations where it's going to bomb, but it's not as universally bad as they're trying to make out. I think it will in fact end up being bad, but it's nowhere near as clear-cut as the article tries to make it.
No way Varian ends at a 10 in the end. It's the highest rated card of the set, and I think it is going to be in some variations of control warrior, but not all of them.
Can't wait to be wrong though!
Edit : Overall, I roughly agree with the cards rated 5 or higher, but there are a LOT of cards where I would change the ratings by at least 2 points
Edit 2 : Deathstar v3 is the person I agree the most with. His rankings actually make sense, I feel it's a bit sad his voice is drowned in other rater's noise
On August 22 2015 07:05 fezvez wrote: No way Varian ends at a 10 in the end. It's the highest rated card of the set, and I think it is going to be in some variations of control warrior, but not all of them.
Can't wait to be wrong though!
Edit : Overall, I roughly agree with the cards rated 5 or higher, but there are a LOT of cards where I would change the ratings by at least 2 points
Edit 2 : Deathstar v3 is the person I agree the most with. His rankings actually make sense, I feel it's a bit sad his voice is drowned in other rater's noise
What cards do you think deserve to be higher? Also looking at deathstars ratings, he doesn't seem to be rating that much deviantly from the pack. Remember that the rating we use is a 6 is a card that will see significant high-level play and the average rating (for this batch of cards) seems to be a 3, so the bar is quite high
On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote: I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
I dunno what you call pessimistic, but you need to keep in mind that in the current meta maybe 1 out of every 10-20 cards will actually see high-level constructed play, so thats the standard that we are rating for. While murloc knight would be a strong in a standard murloc deck, paladin just has nothing to support murlocs which is why we rated it poorly. Also chillmaw is honestly just a propped-up version of abomination Dark bargain discards 2 cards, which is honestly not something you want to happen if you are playing a control deck also its effect is random Enter the colliseum is 1 more mana then brawl and guarantees that the best enemy minion lives, I don't honestly know how you can defend a card like that: equality-concecrate does infinitely better
Well you completely ignored everything I wrote about murloc knight not needing a murloc deck, Chillmaw is not just a propped up version of Abomb; its a dragon, so it procs corrupter etc, it doesn't deal face damage, and the 1 damage increase is very important especially vs frothing/patron. Dark bargain might not be a great card im not sure but there is at least potential to play it in the same way doomguard used to be played in zoo where you empty your hand so you aren't actually discarding anything.
Enter the coliseum guarantees you keep your board (you would only play this card in a control paladin so your only likely to have one big minion in play at a time,) this is a big difference to brawl you can then potentially trade your minion for theirs to completely clear. Even if the card isn't playable it should not just be disregarded as "1 mana worse brawl total trash." its a different card to brawl in a different class and has pros and cons, most of this review is lazy and not well thought through.
I agree with the above. It's very important to note that dropping Chillmaw in the mid-late could just outright win you the game against Patron. It needs an Execute spent on it in order to get through, and the only other way involves multiple weapon charges. It's a hard counter.
And it's not necessarily so bad. If you have a minion on board and the opponent fills his; you can reduce his board to 1 minion while keeping yours on when a brawl would most likely leave the opponent with one of his minion on board and maybe that wouldb et he big one. It's a more reliable brawl.
On August 22 2015 08:29 Acritter wrote: I agree with the above. It's very important to note that dropping Chillmaw in the mid-late could just outright win you the game against Patron. It needs an Execute spent on it in order to get through, and the only other way involves multiple weapon charges. It's a hard counter.
I'm really torn on Chillmaw. My gut has been telling me it's pretty bad since the moment I saw it, and I haven't yet been convinced otherwise. I think the best argument for it is to claim it's a counter to Grim Patron, but honestly I have more faith in Grim Patron than that. Also, Frothing Berserker lives through it, and will be extra frothy.
Otherwise, I dunno, Patron Warrior could tech in a silence if its' that big of a deal? Or TBK? Or be sure to save an Execute if the opponent might be playing it? Like, I just don't see the card being so great against Patron that it makes up for the fact that it's a 7 mana 6/6 taunt with a ??? deathrattle, which makes it unplayably bad in general IMO. I imagine that Twilight Guardian will be more bothersome honestly, as it's not overpriced and still has 6 health.
I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though, because the art is amazing. I just have a hard time believing that Grim Patron can't figure out a way to overcome that with all the tools it has at its disposal.
On August 22 2015 05:13 Dromar wrote: The one thing that Enter the Coliseum has going for it is that you can have a minion on the board when you use it. But that just doesn't make up for the fact that it basically does nothing. I guess you can clear a board of Grim Patrons after they have already kicked your ass?
I find this to be a shortsighted and misleading assessment of the card. In what universe is clearing possibly several minions from the board 'doing nothing'? Also keep in mind class context, Paladin has far more potential use for the card than Warrior. Warrior has plenty of hard removal to choose from, Paladin does not. In fact, Paladin technically has 0 hard removal, they need to use combos to get anything off the board, this card changes that. Also, Paladin is the only class that can reduce a minion's attack straight to 1. Not only is Enter the Coliseum predictable, but you can bend the results to your favor even more with an Aldor Peacekeeper, even a Humility(probably better in that case).
On August 22 2015 08:29 Acritter wrote: I agree with the above. It's very important to note that dropping Chillmaw in the mid-late could just outright win you the game against Patron. It needs an Execute spent on it in order to get through, and the only other way involves multiple weapon charges. It's a hard counter.
I'm really torn on Chillmaw. My gut has been telling me it's pretty bad since the moment I saw it, and I haven't yet been convinced otherwise. I think the best argument for it is to claim it's a counter to Grim Patron, but honestly I have more faith in Grim Patron than that. Also, Frothing Berserker lives through it, and will be extra frothy.
Otherwise, I dunno, Patron Warrior could tech in a silence if its' that big of a deal? Or TBK? Or be sure to save an Execute if the opponent might be playing it? Like, I just don't see the card being so great against Patron that it makes up for the fact that it's a 7 mana 6/6 taunt with a ??? deathrattle, which makes it unplayably bad in general IMO. I imagine that Twilight Guardian will be more bothersome honestly, as it's not overpriced and still has 6 health.
I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though, because the art is amazing. I just have a hard time believing that Grim Patron can't figure out a way to overcome that with all the tools it has at its disposal.
Patron is already running a Shield Slam as well which would deal with Chillmaw. That said it would be somewhat annoying to deal with and you wouldn't be able to Whirlwind the Frothing etc which slows down the combo
On August 22 2015 05:13 Dromar wrote: The one thing that Enter the Coliseum has going for it is that you can have a minion on the board when you use it. But that just doesn't make up for the fact that it basically does nothing. I guess you can clear a board of Grim Patrons after they have already kicked your ass?
I find this to be a shortsighted and misleading assessment of the card. In what universe is clearing possibly several minions from the board 'doing nothing'? Also keep in mind class context, Paladin has far more potential use for the card than Warrior. Warrior has plenty of hard removal to choose from, Paladin does not. In fact, Paladin technically has 0 hard removal, they need to use combos to get anything off the board, this card changes that. Also, Paladin is the only class that can reduce a minion's attack straight to 1. Not only is Enter the Coliseum predictable, but you can bend the results to your favor even more with an Aldor Peacekeeper, even a Humility(probably better in that case).
I mean if you are arguing for a two card combo then Equality + Consecration is always going to be better in that scenario (Plus its much cheaper on the mana). I personally don't think it is useless but you can't really hide behind the Aldor defence if you reject Equality Consecration
On August 22 2015 08:29 Acritter wrote: I agree with the above. It's very important to note that dropping Chillmaw in the mid-late could just outright win you the game against Patron. It needs an Execute spent on it in order to get through, and the only other way involves multiple weapon charges. It's a hard counter.
I'm really torn on Chillmaw. My gut has been telling me it's pretty bad since the moment I saw it, and I haven't yet been convinced otherwise. I think the best argument for it is to claim it's a counter to Grim Patron, but honestly I have more faith in Grim Patron than that. Also, Frothing Berserker lives through it, and will be extra frothy.
Otherwise, I dunno, Patron Warrior could tech in a silence if its' that big of a deal? Or TBK? Or be sure to save an Execute if the opponent might be playing it? Like, I just don't see the card being so great against Patron that it makes up for the fact that it's a 7 mana 6/6 taunt with a ??? deathrattle, which makes it unplayably bad in general IMO. I imagine that Twilight Guardian will be more bothersome honestly, as it's not overpriced and still has 6 health.
I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though, because the art is amazing. I just have a hard time believing that Grim Patron can't figure out a way to overcome that with all the tools it has at its disposal.
Frothing Berserker isn't going to be extra Frothy because you can't play Frothing Berserker and whirlwind effects until after you kill Chillmaw.
Sure Patron Warrior can tech in things like TBK or silence or Shield Slam, but other than Shield Slam, you're effectively delaying the big combo by a turn. Sometimes that's all it takes (see, Gadgetzan Auctioneer nerf and Miracle Rogue).
On August 22 2015 05:13 Dromar wrote: The one thing that Enter the Coliseum has going for it is that you can have a minion on the board when you use it. But that just doesn't make up for the fact that it basically does nothing. I guess you can clear a board of Grim Patrons after they have already kicked your ass?
I find this to be a shortsighted and misleading assessment of the card. In what universe is clearing possibly several minions from the board 'doing nothing'? Also keep in mind class context, Paladin has far more potential use for the card than Warrior. Warrior has plenty of hard removal to choose from, Paladin does not. In fact, Paladin technically has 0 hard removal, they need to use combos to get anything off the board, this card changes that. Also, Paladin is the only class that can reduce a minion's attack straight to 1. Not only is Enter the Coliseum predictable, but you can bend the results to your favor even more with an Aldor Peacekeeper, even a Humility(probably better in that case).
I mean if you are arguing for a two card combo then Equality + Consecration is always going to be better in that scenario (Plus its much cheaper on the mana). I personally don't think it is useless but you can't really hide behind the Aldor defence if you reject Equality Consecration
But I can. Aldor Peacekeeper gains a new utility with it, but it's hardly needed to play the card. If I was topdecking, and could get but 1 out of Equality, Consecration, and Enter the Coliseum, Enter would be the only one to kill things outright.
On August 22 2015 05:13 Dromar wrote: The one thing that Enter the Coliseum has going for it is that you can have a minion on the board when you use it. But that just doesn't make up for the fact that it basically does nothing. I guess you can clear a board of Grim Patrons after they have already kicked your ass?
I find this to be a shortsighted and misleading assessment of the card. In what universe is clearing possibly several minions from the board 'doing nothing'? Also keep in mind class context, Paladin has far more potential use for the card than Warrior. Warrior has plenty of hard removal to choose from, Paladin does not. In fact, Paladin technically has 0 hard removal, they need to use combos to get anything off the board, this card changes that. Also, Paladin is the only class that can reduce a minion's attack straight to 1. Not only is Enter the Coliseum predictable, but you can bend the results to your favor even more with an Aldor Peacekeeper, even a Humility(probably better in that case).
I mean if you are arguing for a two card combo then Equality + Consecration is always going to be better in that scenario (Plus its much cheaper on the mana). I personally don't think it is useless but you can't really hide behind the Aldor defence if you reject Equality Consecration
But I can. Aldor Peacekeeper gains a new utility with it, but it's hardly needed to play the card. If I was topdecking, and could get but 1 out of Equality, Consecration, and Enter the Coliseum, Enter would be the only one to kill things outright.
Personally if I was going to sack my own board as control Paladin i'd be running the old Pyromancer / Equality combo. I get that its not a completely dead card but for the mana cost and the overall downside compared to Paladin's already stupidly strong removal in Equality it does seem like overkill. That said it'd be a nice niche card to include if the meta becomes really really control based and only having 4 removal spells doesn't cut it anymore.
Speaking as someone who plays a lot of control paladin I personally find it rather rare that I wouldn't have a minion on board at any given moment to make trades with Equality. So it really does depend on what type of Paladin deck you are running.
On August 22 2015 05:13 Dromar wrote: The one thing that Enter the Coliseum has going for it is that you can have a minion on the board when you use it. But that just doesn't make up for the fact that it basically does nothing. I guess you can clear a board of Grim Patrons after they have already kicked your ass?
I find this to be a shortsighted and misleading assessment of the card. In what universe is clearing possibly several minions from the board 'doing nothing'? Also keep in mind class context, Paladin has far more potential use for the card than Warrior. Warrior has plenty of hard removal to choose from, Paladin does not. In fact, Paladin technically has 0 hard removal, they need to use combos to get anything off the board, this card changes that. Also, Paladin is the only class that can reduce a minion's attack straight to 1. Not only is Enter the Coliseum predictable, but you can bend the results to your favor even more with an Aldor Peacekeeper, even a Humility(probably better in that case).
The several minions you're talking about would likely also be cleared with Consecrate, for less mana, and with additional damage to the large minion and opponent. I have kept class context in mind. I don't know why you bring up Paladin's lack of hard removal when discussing a card that will 100% of the time fail to remove the minion for which you would want hard removal in the first place.
There is very little synergy between this card and Aldor Peacekeeper that isn't nearly replicated by Aldor alone. Sure, you can Enter the Coliseum and then Aldor what's left. But Aldor does a lot of work on his own there and I think the mana and card slot could likely be spent more efficiently.
Ultimately I don't see myself ever playing this card over a second Equality.
Enter is another board wipe for paladins. Its definitely not better than equality combos but it does help fill in the blanks. You wont always have equality clears and often more times than not you are at these awkward moments as paladin since the class does not draw well.
There are alot of unique situations where Enter works decently like with big game hunters, aldors, or a fat minion on the board your opponent ignores going for your face, eadric the pure plays... I will be giving this card a try as a 1 of just as additional removal alongside 2x equality in a new age control paladin.
The Liquidhearths predictions sound some of the worst out there, and I always had the feeling it's been a really low effort. Trump initial TGT reviews were almost just as stupid, but at least he tried a bit, and at his stream last night when he made one big summary with all the (class?) cards, he gave much more thought this time, I liked it. He had some good points about Competitive Spirit for example, and he is also among the few, who realized that Murloc Knight is actually a pretty decent card and does not requires the paladin to be murloc pally. This list gives it a 2 without even TRYING, holy cow, so maddening.
Anyway, I expect these predictions to be the most embarassing in months to come, while reynad and Strifecro seem to be the most on point. But even if they do not predict everything correctly, both of them gave really good analytical reviews instead of just "roflmao this sucks", then randomly giving Mysterious Challenger a 6, like seriously guys. The whole review is inconsistent and low-effort, which is not what I would expect after the weekly top 20 lists, which are really nice.
On August 22 2015 03:31 MasterFwiffo wrote: It's like the entire list is made by the same people who called Grim Patron, Dr Boom and Sludge Belcher terrible.
While i agree with your post, this argument is getting old. Most ppl just copy/paste this shit without any knowledge why they "missed" those cards.
Grim Patron -> Blizzard fixed Warsong Commander glitch. Dr Boom -> Some ppl predicted this card was good, but the main issue was Trogzor. There was no space for two 7 drops, if Trogzor prediction ended up being right, Dr Boom wouldn't see any play. Sludge Belcher -> No one saw this one coming because heavy deathrattle decks didn't exist before nax.
Seriously now guys, yeah, they got it all wrong, but get over it.
On August 22 2015 20:27 Volband wrote: while reynad and Strifecro seem to be the most on point.
Just look at the chat when StrifeCro was doing his review and realize ppl there know more about the cards then he does.
No one was sure how Beneath the Grounds work, but that doesn't invalidate anyone in my eyes. Just compare his reviews with Kripp's, who either brings up beta constructed examples, or can rarely see further than arena value.
On August 22 2015 03:31 MasterFwiffo wrote: It's like the entire list is made by the same people who called Grim Patron, Dr Boom and Sludge Belcher terrible.
While i agree with your post, this argument is getting old. Most ppl just copy/paste this shit without any knowledge why they "missed" those cards.
Sludge Belcher -> No one saw this one coming because heavy deathrattle decks didn't exist before nax.
Seriously now guys, yeah, they got it all wrong, but get over it.
so no one understood the value in deathrattle minions? after almost a year of harvest golem being in almost every deck? sludge belcher use didn't spread like wildfire because of deathrattle synergies.
the argument might be getting old, but so is chronic pessimism.
I don't get all the hatred for Enter the Coliseum. You have a small board, your opponent has a way stronger board. You soften up their biggest guy with your small board, Enter the Coliseum, finish it off with what you were left with. Yes, you have to deal with one big guy, but other than that it is way more reliable board clear then Brawl. Maybe not as strong in the best case scenario, but reliable. Or would you rather prefer a random card with a random effect that does random things?
On August 23 2015 04:08 Fi0na wrote: I don't get all the hatred for Enter the Coliseum. You have a small board, your opponent has a way stronger board. You soften up their biggest guy with your small board, Enter the Coliseum, finish it off with what you were left with. Yes, you have to deal with one big guy, but other than that it is way more reliable board clear then Brawl. Maybe not as strong in the best case scenario, but reliable. Or would you rather prefer a random card with a random effect that does random things?
The thing you are ignoring is the sad thing is Equality does Enter the Colliseum's job much better in that scenario. No one is comparing it to Brawl because even within the Paladin class its pretty weak as a removal option unless you really need 5 lots of removal
People have to realize that there are a lot of haters of this expansion, Lifecoach infamously said there was literally only 3 playable cards in TGT. So that being said...
There are many cards you are just so wrong, I became very angry by the end while reading this.
Acidmaw is not a 1 - c'mon guys. Its a specific combo card. Its like use it well or don't but its not useless because of this asinine obsession with "value".
Arcane Blast could be pretty cool, you are right its a little bland. 1 mana for 2 damage is decent people usually use the Holy Smite on 2 life minions anyway y'know. Would have rated a 3 or 4.
I dare say Competitive Spirit could be in every aggro Paladin or secrets Paladin in the game, that is better than a 3.
Healing Wave is AUTO INCLUDE, are you even thinking? Sorry that is where I drew the line and got really upset.
"Murloc Paladin isn't a current deck, this card sucks" lol that didn't stop Blizzard from making one for Shaman, admittedly that sucked. I think Murloc Pally is a thing because of Divine Favor, you guys are way undervaluing this card with all the crazy buffs and synergies Paladin has such as...
Seal of Champions - haven't you guys played vs. Aggro Paladin? The card value on this is sick, you get two cards in one, you can kill a stronger minion for free, you rating this as trash? Might eat your words.
Shadowfiend... lol yep, I'll take the class with the most card draw, give it a "draw a card and play for 1 less mana" and call it a bad card. Priest, circle of healing, draw 3 cards, one of those is a PW: Shield for free, another card 1 less mana, maybe I have enough mana to cast a hero power draw another card. So I drew a bunch of cards this turn, next turn I can cast a flurry of cards or 6 mana Dr. Boom.
Sparring Partner goes with the new Taunt Warrior of course.
This article should have had a second pass through to consider some future decks.
On August 23 2015 05:30 Vaudevillain2 wrote: People have to realize that there are a lot of haters of this expansion, Lifecoach infamously said there was literally only 3 playable cards in TGT. So that being said...
There are many cards you are just so wrong, I became very angry by the end while reading this.
Acidmaw is not a 1 - c'mon guys. Its a specific combo card. Its like use it well or don't but its not useless because of this asinine obsession with "value".
Arcane Blast could be pretty cool, you are right its a little bland. 1 mana for 2 damage is decent people usually use the Holy Smite on 2 life minions anyway y'know. Would have rated a 3 or 4.
I dare say Competitive Spirit could be in every aggro Paladin or secrets Paladin in the game, that is better than a 3.
Healing Wave is AUTO INCLUDE, are you even thinking? Sorry that is where I drew the line and got really upset.
"Murloc Paladin isn't a current deck, this card sucks" lol that didn't stop Blizzard from making one for Shaman, admittedly that sucked. I think Murloc Pally is a thing because of Divine Favor, you guys are way undervaluing this card with all the crazy buffs and synergies Paladin has such as...
Seal of Champions - haven't you guys played vs. Aggro Paladin? The card value on this is sick, you get two cards in one, you can kill a stronger minion for free, you rating this as trash? Might eat your words.
Shadowfiend... lol yep, I'll take the class with the most card draw, give it a "draw a card and play for 1 less mana" and call it a bad card. Priest, circle of healing, draw 3 cards, one of those is a PW: Shield for free, another card 1 less mana, maybe I have enough mana to cast a hero power draw another card. So I drew a bunch of cards this turn, next turn I can cast a flurry of cards or 6 mana Dr. Boom.
Sparring Partner goes with the new Taunt Warrior of course.
This article should have had a second pass through to consider some future decks.
If you play Acidmaw on turn 7 you will lose the game. Hunter has much better removal that it already doesn't use because its not "good enough" for hunter. Acidmaw will never see play because there are much better cards in the hunter's arsenal.
People don't run Arcane shot / Holy Smite so Arcane Blast won't be run either. Maybe at the low tiers but whats the point of rating cards at the lower rungs when high tier play is all that matters.
Competitive spirit might see play i'll agree with that.
We've discussed Murloc Knight enough this thread
Seal of Champions will probably replace BoM / BoK in aggro paladin but outside that it won't see much play. The fact its rated a 3 means that its not rated utter trash btw.
Shadowfiend - Priests already don't run Thaurissan they don't really have much need for mana reduction effects which is why most pros are hesitant to include it
Sparring Partner really only works if a new deck comes up for Warrior but I don't really see that happening when people could just play GPW / Wallet.
On August 23 2015 04:08 Fi0na wrote: I don't get all the hatred for Enter the Coliseum. You have a small board, your opponent has a way stronger board. You soften up their biggest guy with your small board, Enter the Coliseum, finish it off with what you were left with. Yes, you have to deal with one big guy, but other than that it is way more reliable board clear then Brawl. Maybe not as strong in the best case scenario, but reliable. Or would you rather prefer a random card with a random effect that does random things?
The thing you are ignoring is the sad thing is Equality does Enter the Colliseum's job much better in that scenario. No one is comparing it to Brawl because even within the Paladin class its pretty weak as a removal option unless you really need 5 lots of removal
This again. This kind of thought process is why Trump's reviews were unwatchable. Here's a new card which is familiar and is dismissed as "but equality+consecration am i rite?" It seriously irritates me, especially after being through said reviews by Trump and the Kripp ones as well.
ETC and the combo are different enough to warrant a lenghtier discussion. First of all, and this is the most annoying, why couldn't both the combo AND this card be run? Like two consecrations, because it's awesome, and flexible: great against aggro and midrange, while equality ensures that it has another use versus bigger creatures as well. Okay, but what if not every game will be played against facehunter or eboladin? Is it imaginable that 1 (or maybe 2) Equality could be run with 2 Consecrations and an Enter The Coliseum? I don't even care if it's a stupid idea, it seems obvious to mention it.
Control Warrior got a new card almost everyone agrees it's THE BEST EVER. Dragon Warrior also got significantly better, and Dragons are kinda huge. Handlocks are still going to be handlocks. Control Priests might return, but that 2 drop which promotes Dragon Priest is really great, so Dragon Priest might be a thing, and Dragons are still huge, so having an Enter The Coliseum in your heavy Control Paladin might not be the worst idea ever. But don't forget Aviana and Astral Communion who will either fade away as "the cute cards which could have been" or they actually become a nightmare to deal with. Okay, probably not Astral COmmunion, but Aviana can work.
Also, what about deck efficency? Is 1 EQ+2CC+1ETC worse than 2EQ+2CC? If you ran the latter in a Control Pally, shouldn't you run Wild Pyromancers as well, so you don't have to a.) pray to actually draw the combo b.) being able to play it earlier? If so, wouldn't the deck with -1EQ +1ETC could get rid of the Pyromancers? Sure, it means you can't clear board before turn 6, but maybe you do not even need to OR it worths having 2 new cards instead of the Pyromancers.
On the other hand, maybe you have to use an Equality because some Druid innervated out something that has to be dealt with asap, or that pesky Priest is up to some shenanigans like they always are. If you run one Equality, you just lost your boardclear, but even if you run 2, it might still wouldn't hurt to have something else as a backup.
It's not even that bad versus aggro. Yeah, Consecration is much better, but how much does it really matter if you only have an Equality in your hand from the combo or an ETC before turn 6?
ETC also has the advantage to actually come out with something meaningful on the board. If you used the combo before, everything you had on the board became extremely weak. With ETC+a weapon equipped, it's not unimaginable, to still have something bulky on the board, while your opponent has nothing.
I understand that saying "lel, worse than brawl, nothx by onto the next card, gotta finish fast" is much easier than actually try to see the big picture and put this card in a.) a Paladin deck, because Paladin is not equal with Warrior, so no one really cares if Warrior would never play this and b.) a TGT meta.
All I can hear in my mind is Forsen saying clown fiesta. To be honest, the reason I read/watch card reviews (forgot to mention Kibler, he does a nice job as well, will be looking forward to his ETC analysis), because I want to hear one of the best and/or most talented players opinion on these new cards, because they will surely see and understand things I wouldn't, and not to be bombarded with basic concepts like Equality+Consecration is a better board clear than ETC, or that RIGHT NOW probably no one would play that card. Like, what the hell, are we just ignoring the other 130+ cards or what?
On August 23 2015 04:08 Fi0na wrote: I don't get all the hatred for Enter the Coliseum. You have a small board, your opponent has a way stronger board. You soften up their biggest guy with your small board, Enter the Coliseum, finish it off with what you were left with. Yes, you have to deal with one big guy, but other than that it is way more reliable board clear then Brawl. Maybe not as strong in the best case scenario, but reliable. Or would you rather prefer a random card with a random effect that does random things?
The thing you are ignoring is the sad thing is Equality does Enter the Colliseum's job much better in that scenario. No one is comparing it to Brawl because even within the Paladin class its pretty weak as a removal option unless you really need 5 lots of removal
This again. This kind of thought process is why Trump's reviews were unwatchable. Here's a new card which is familiar and is dismissed as "but equality+consecration am i rite?" It seriously irritates me, especially after being through said reviews by Trump and the Kripp ones as well.
ETC and the combo are different enough to warrant a lenghtier discussion. First of all, and this is the most annoying, why couldn't both the combo AND this card be run? Like two consecrations, because it's awesome, and flexible: great against aggro and midrange, while equality ensures that it has another use versus bigger creatures as well. Okay, but what if not every game will be played against facehunter or eboladin? Is it imaginable that 1 (or maybe 2) Equality could be run with 2 Consecrations and an Enter The Coliseum? I don't even care if it's a stupid idea, it seems obvious to mention it.
Control Warrior got a new card almost everyone agrees it's THE BEST EVER. Dragon Warrior also got significantly better, and Dragons are kinda huge. Handlocks are still going to be handlocks. Control Priests might return, but that 2 drop which promotes Dragon Priest is really great, so Dragon Priest might be a thing, and Dragons are still huge, so having an Enter The Coliseum in your heavy Control Paladin might not be the worst idea ever. But don't forget Aviana and Astral Communion who will either fade away as "the cute cards which could have been" or they actually become a nightmare to deal with. Okay, probably not Astral COmmunion, but Aviana can work.
Also, what about deck efficency? Is 1 EQ+2CC+1ETC worse than 2EQ+2CC? If you ran the latter in a Control Pally, shouldn't you run Wild Pyromancers as well, so you don't have to a.) pray to actually draw the combo b.) being able to play it earlier? If so, wouldn't the deck with -1EQ +1ETC could get rid of the Pyromancers? Sure, it means you can't clear board before turn 6, but maybe you do not even need to OR it worths having 2 new cards instead of the Pyromancers.
On the other hand, maybe you have to use an Equality because some Druid innervated out something that has to be dealt with asap, or that pesky Priest is up to some shenanigans like they always are. If you run one Equality, you just lost your boardclear, but even if you run 2, it might still wouldn't hurt to have something else as a backup.
It's not even that bad versus aggro. Yeah, Consecration is much better, but how much does it really matter if you only have an Equality in your hand from the combo or an ETC?
ETC also has the advantage to actually come out with something meaningful on the board. If you used the combo before, everything you had on the board became extremely weak. With ETC+a weapon equipped, it's not unimaginable, to still have something bulky on the board, while your opponent has nothing.
I understand that saying "lel, worse than brawl, nothx by onto the next card, gotta finish fast" is much easier than actually try to see the big picture and put this card in a.) a Paladin deck, because Paladin is not equal with Warrior, so no one really cares if Warrior would never play this and b.) a TGT meta.
All I can hear in my mind is Forsen saying clown fiesta. To be honest, the reason I read/watch card reviews (forgot to mention Kibler, he does a nice job as well, will be looking forward to his ETC analysis), because I want to hear one of the best and/or most talented players opinion on these new cards, because they will surely see and understand things I wouldn't, and not to be bombarded with basic concepts like Equality+Consecration is a better board clear than ETC, or that RIGHT NOW probably no one would play that card. Like, what the hell, are we just ignoring the other 130+ cards or what?
As I said if the meta ever starts requiring 5 lots of removal thats when ETC will be played.
Also you seem to forget that the current style of control Paladin should always have some sort of minion on board due to the hero power / muster / sticky minions like Shield bot / shredder etc. Which means that Equality on its own is perfectly acceptable as a form of board clear in the situations that ETC would also be used. You don't always need the combo to play out Equality.
If you're against aggro if you use ETC you've probably just wasted your turn 6 not fully clearing the board which only puts more pressure on you as your oponent deals more free damage to you which is why in that scenario i'd rather have a Consecration even in a TGT meta which as we've seen probably isn't going to slow the game down too much to the point the 5th form of removal is needed.
On August 23 2015 04:08 Fi0na wrote: I don't get all the hatred for Enter the Coliseum. You have a small board, your opponent has a way stronger board. You soften up their biggest guy with your small board, Enter the Coliseum, finish it off with what you were left with. Yes, you have to deal with one big guy, but other than that it is way more reliable board clear then Brawl. Maybe not as strong in the best case scenario, but reliable. Or would you rather prefer a random card with a random effect that does random things?
The thing you are ignoring is the sad thing is Equality does Enter the Colliseum's job much better in that scenario. No one is comparing it to Brawl because even within the Paladin class its pretty weak as a removal option unless you really need 5 lots of removal
This again. This kind of thought process is why Trump's reviews were unwatchable. Here's a new card which is familiar and is dismissed as "but equality+consecration am i rite?" It seriously irritates me, especially after being through said reviews by Trump and the Kripp ones as well.
ETC and the combo are different enough to warrant a lenghtier discussion. First of all, and this is the most annoying, why couldn't both the combo AND this card be run? Like two consecrations, because it's awesome, and flexible: great against aggro and midrange, while equality ensures that it has another use versus bigger creatures as well. Okay, but what if not every game will be played against facehunter or eboladin? Is it imaginable that 1 (or maybe 2) Equality could be run with 2 Consecrations and an Enter The Coliseum? I don't even care if it's a stupid idea, it seems obvious to mention it.
Control Warrior got a new card almost everyone agrees it's THE BEST EVER. Dragon Warrior also got significantly better, and Dragons are kinda huge. Handlocks are still going to be handlocks. Control Priests might return, but that 2 drop which promotes Dragon Priest is really great, so Dragon Priest might be a thing, and Dragons are still huge, so having an Enter The Coliseum in your heavy Control Paladin might not be the worst idea ever. But don't forget Aviana and Astral Communion who will either fade away as "the cute cards which could have been" or they actually become a nightmare to deal with. Okay, probably not Astral COmmunion, but Aviana can work.
Also, what about deck efficency? Is 1 EQ+2CC+1ETC worse than 2EQ+2CC? If you ran the latter in a Control Pally, shouldn't you run Wild Pyromancers as well, so you don't have to a.) pray to actually draw the combo b.) being able to play it earlier? If so, wouldn't the deck with -1EQ +1ETC could get rid of the Pyromancers? Sure, it means you can't clear board before turn 6, but maybe you do not even need to OR it worths having 2 new cards instead of the Pyromancers.
On the other hand, maybe you have to use an Equality because some Druid innervated out something that has to be dealt with asap, or that pesky Priest is up to some shenanigans like they always are. If you run one Equality, you just lost your boardclear, but even if you run 2, it might still wouldn't hurt to have something else as a backup.
It's not even that bad versus aggro. Yeah, Consecration is much better, but how much does it really matter if you only have an Equality in your hand from the combo or an ETC?
ETC also has the advantage to actually come out with something meaningful on the board. If you used the combo before, everything you had on the board became extremely weak. With ETC+a weapon equipped, it's not unimaginable, to still have something bulky on the board, while your opponent has nothing.
I understand that saying "lel, worse than brawl, nothx by onto the next card, gotta finish fast" is much easier than actually try to see the big picture and put this card in a.) a Paladin deck, because Paladin is not equal with Warrior, so no one really cares if Warrior would never play this and b.) a TGT meta.
All I can hear in my mind is Forsen saying clown fiesta. To be honest, the reason I read/watch card reviews (forgot to mention Kibler, he does a nice job as well, will be looking forward to his ETC analysis), because I want to hear one of the best and/or most talented players opinion on these new cards, because they will surely see and understand things I wouldn't, and not to be bombarded with basic concepts like Equality+Consecration is a better board clear than ETC, or that RIGHT NOW probably no one would play that card. Like, what the hell, are we just ignoring the other 130+ cards or what?
As I said if the meta ever starts requiring 5 lots of removal thats when ETC will be played.
Also you seem to forget that the current style of control Paladin should always have some sort of minion on board due to the hero power / muster / sticky minions like Shield bot / shredder etc. Which means that Equality on its own is perfectly acceptable as a form of board clear in the situations that ETC would also be used. You don't always need the combo to play out Equality.
If you're against aggro if you use ETC you've probably just wasted your turn 6 not fully clearing the board which only puts more pressure on you as your oponent deals more free damage to you which is why in that scenario i'd rather have a Consecration even in a TGT meta which as we've seen probably isn't going to slow the game down too much to the point the 5th form of removal is needed.
Saying 5th would make sense in a Warrior deck, because Execute and Shield Slam almost certainly kills their targets, but Equality-Consecration is different. Once again, you created scenarios where Equality will always happen when you have some stuff on your board, and Consecration always drawn when your opponent only has 2 or less health creatures. Just no, don't do that. I mean, should I say now what if you opponent just shadowflamed your board and dropped down 2 Molten giants to a board with some more stuff on it already, and you have an Equality OR Consecration in your hand, but not both? Bam, ETC suddenly is the best card a Pally could wish for as a one off.
Anyway, ETC has the advantage of being almost the same as the combo, but in one card, while the other two cards are much more flexible. Kinda like Brawl and the 4 other removal in Warriors! Except you can actually control ETC, but even if you can't, why is that Warriors can run Brawl, or even two of them, but if Pally gets a Brawl is 2/10? Come the F on, Paladin can be so much more screwed than Warrior in removals. Sometimes you need to Equality or Consecrate for only one minion, because Paladin has no 3 mana hard removal nor a 2 mana deal 3 damage spell.
And as I mentioned earlier, Murlock Knight got a freakin' 2 (!!!) as well, when it can be as snowbally as the Quartermaster-Muster combo, while Mysterious Challenger got a 6 (I do not even...), when it requires a gimmicky deck to begin with. Yeah, maybe Murlock Knight won't be played, because Shredder is a 10/10, so even if MK would be a 9,5/10, Shredder could still just force it into being unplayed, but giving it a 2 is just a very poor judgement.
The only thing which could save these ratings if this was a satire with some witty reasons as for why a perfectly nice fit into Midrange Pally gets a 2, while one of the most gimmicky class cards get a 6. Mysterious challenger is better than Healing wave!!!!!
Edit: or look at Kvaldir raider. It gets a one because Floating watcher is not played either. Gee, makes you wonder if Kvaldir Raider would have a mechanic shared with other cards so they all had a theme going, unlike Floating Watcher which was a one of a kind so far.... hm
Since paladin seems to be getting oddities like usual(unlike mages, blizzard loves mages sooo much) i will try and humor the new cards.
Competitive spirit is going to be in every aggro paladin replacing something slow like hammer. Its not all about the raw stats either rather the card brings utility protecting 1 health minions and extra burst early since it only costs 1 mana.
Seal of champions seems to me it only belongs in OTK paladin with shade of naxx. Midrange will not want to run it since it offers no health boost and aggro might use it over argent protector/coghammer/kings for more instant damage/stickyness.
Murloc Knight looks like crap at 4 health. The only way i see it working is with fencing coach in some weird murlocesk inspire deck.
Warhorse is a decent arena card and will grant mid range paladin value out of their muster before 5 mana.
Argent lance is just bad okay
Tuskar Jouster is an inferior healbot when you are counting on the heal and in control matchups an inferior 5 drop. The card looks cute(as in the picture) but its nothing special. I will experiment with it though even if its a card that tries to do 2 things at once.
Enter the coliseum might be what a big minion based control paladin needs to be viable.
Eadric the pure might be what a big minion based control paladin needs to be viable.
Challenger is junk at 6 mana for the deck it will have to run a ton of those lousey 1 mana secrets. Paladin does not have the draw to throw a bunch of filler cards in with a summoning sickness finisher. You are better off ditching the secret theme and playing an aggro paladin using that 6 mana to just end the game.
All in all and this is not exclusive to paladins the expansion offered a lot of what if cards that make new decks so lets hope the patron meta changes.
On August 23 2015 04:08 Fi0na wrote: I don't get all the hatred for Enter the Coliseum. You have a small board, your opponent has a way stronger board. You soften up their biggest guy with your small board, Enter the Coliseum, finish it off with what you were left with. Yes, you have to deal with one big guy, but other than that it is way more reliable board clear then Brawl. Maybe not as strong in the best case scenario, but reliable. Or would you rather prefer a random card with a random effect that does random things?
The thing you are ignoring is the sad thing is Equality does Enter the Colliseum's job much better in that scenario. No one is comparing it to Brawl because even within the Paladin class its pretty weak as a removal option unless you really need 5 lots of removal
This again. This kind of thought process is why Trump's reviews were unwatchable. Here's a new card which is familiar and is dismissed as "but equality+consecration am i rite?" It seriously irritates me, especially after being through said reviews by Trump and the Kripp ones as well.
ETC and the combo are different enough to warrant a lenghtier discussion. First of all, and this is the most annoying, why couldn't both the combo AND this card be run? Like two consecrations, because it's awesome, and flexible: great against aggro and midrange, while equality ensures that it has another use versus bigger creatures as well. Okay, but what if not every game will be played against facehunter or eboladin? Is it imaginable that 1 (or maybe 2) Equality could be run with 2 Consecrations and an Enter The Coliseum? I don't even care if it's a stupid idea, it seems obvious to mention it.
Control Warrior got a new card almost everyone agrees it's THE BEST EVER. Dragon Warrior also got significantly better, and Dragons are kinda huge. Handlocks are still going to be handlocks. Control Priests might return, but that 2 drop which promotes Dragon Priest is really great, so Dragon Priest might be a thing, and Dragons are still huge, so having an Enter The Coliseum in your heavy Control Paladin might not be the worst idea ever. But don't forget Aviana and Astral Communion who will either fade away as "the cute cards which could have been" or they actually become a nightmare to deal with. Okay, probably not Astral COmmunion, but Aviana can work.
Also, what about deck efficency? Is 1 EQ+2CC+1ETC worse than 2EQ+2CC? If you ran the latter in a Control Pally, shouldn't you run Wild Pyromancers as well, so you don't have to a.) pray to actually draw the combo b.) being able to play it earlier? If so, wouldn't the deck with -1EQ +1ETC could get rid of the Pyromancers? Sure, it means you can't clear board before turn 6, but maybe you do not even need to OR it worths having 2 new cards instead of the Pyromancers.
On the other hand, maybe you have to use an Equality because some Druid innervated out something that has to be dealt with asap, or that pesky Priest is up to some shenanigans like they always are. If you run one Equality, you just lost your boardclear, but even if you run 2, it might still wouldn't hurt to have something else as a backup.
It's not even that bad versus aggro. Yeah, Consecration is much better, but how much does it really matter if you only have an Equality in your hand from the combo or an ETC?
ETC also has the advantage to actually come out with something meaningful on the board. If you used the combo before, everything you had on the board became extremely weak. With ETC+a weapon equipped, it's not unimaginable, to still have something bulky on the board, while your opponent has nothing.
I understand that saying "lel, worse than brawl, nothx by onto the next card, gotta finish fast" is much easier than actually try to see the big picture and put this card in a.) a Paladin deck, because Paladin is not equal with Warrior, so no one really cares if Warrior would never play this and b.) a TGT meta.
All I can hear in my mind is Forsen saying clown fiesta. To be honest, the reason I read/watch card reviews (forgot to mention Kibler, he does a nice job as well, will be looking forward to his ETC analysis), because I want to hear one of the best and/or most talented players opinion on these new cards, because they will surely see and understand things I wouldn't, and not to be bombarded with basic concepts like Equality+Consecration is a better board clear than ETC, or that RIGHT NOW probably no one would play that card. Like, what the hell, are we just ignoring the other 130+ cards or what?
As I said if the meta ever starts requiring 5 lots of removal thats when ETC will be played.
Also you seem to forget that the current style of control Paladin should always have some sort of minion on board due to the hero power / muster / sticky minions like Shield bot / shredder etc. Which means that Equality on its own is perfectly acceptable as a form of board clear in the situations that ETC would also be used. You don't always need the combo to play out Equality.
If you're against aggro if you use ETC you've probably just wasted your turn 6 not fully clearing the board which only puts more pressure on you as your oponent deals more free damage to you which is why in that scenario i'd rather have a Consecration even in a TGT meta which as we've seen probably isn't going to slow the game down too much to the point the 5th form of removal is needed.
Saying 5th would make sense in a Warrior deck, because Execute and Shield Slam almost certainly kills their targets, but Equality-Consecration is different. Once again, you created scenarios where Equality will always happen when you have some stuff on your board, and Consecration always drawn when your opponent only has 2 or less health creatures. Just no, don't do that. I mean, should I say now what if you opponent just shadowflamed your board and dropped down 2 Molten giants to a board with some more stuff on it already, and you have an Equality OR Consecration in your hand, but not both? Bam, ETC suddenly is the best card a Pally could wish for as a one off.
Anyway, ETC has the advantage of being almost the same as the combo, but in one card, while the other two cards are much more flexible. Kinda like Brawl and the 4 other removal in Warriors! Except you can actually control ETC, but even if you can't, why is that Warriors can run Brawl, or even two of them, but if Pally gets a Brawl is 2/10? Come the F on, Paladin can be so much more screwed than Warrior in removals. Sometimes you need to Equality or Consecrate for only one minion, because Paladin has no 3 mana hard removal nor a 2 mana deal 3 damage spell.
And as I mentioned earlier, Murlock Knight got a freakin' 2 (!!!) as well, when it can be as snowbally as the Quartermaster-Muster combo, while Mysterious Challenger got a 6 (I do not even...), when it requires a gimmicky deck to begin with. Yeah, maybe Murlock Knight won't be played, because Shredder is a 10/10, so even if MK would be a 9,5/10, Shredder could still just force it into being unplayed, but giving it a 2 is just a very poor judgement.
The only thing which could save these ratings if this was a satire with some witty reasons as for why a perfectly nice fit into Midrange Pally gets a 2, while one of the most gimmicky class cards get a 6. Mysterious challenger is better than Healing wave!!!!!
In the situation where you've just been shadowflamed and lost your board then got two Molten's against you if you can't deal with both Molten's you've probably lost. I'm not sure how spending 6 mana for essentially a BGH is worth it. You have to remember that a lot of the Warrior's minions come from its battlecry Value so they don't mind sacking the board as much as Paladins so who really want to take control of the board then win the game due to their lack of burst damage. They are very different classes with very different win conditions which is what you are forgetting.
Again I don't think its a terrible card. But I don't think its better than current options.
Also Floating Watcher literally is just a better version of Kvaldir Raider since Floating Watcher has more ways to activate the effect and it has demon synergy. As shown from this week's brawl it takes your opponent running a hilarious bad deck to actually get Inspire value and even then its pretty hard to get any value from Inspire
On August 23 2015 06:37 Noidberg wrote: Since paladin seems to be getting oddities like usual(unlike mages, blizzard loves mages sooo much) i will try and humor the new cards.
Competitive spirit is going to be in every aggro paladin replacing something slow like hammer. Its not all about the raw stats either rather the card brings utility protecting 1 health minions and extra burst early since it only costs 1 mana.
Seal of champions seems to me it only belongs in OTK paladin with shade of naxx. Midrange will not want to run it since it offers no health boost and aggro might use it over argent protector/coghammer/kings for more instant damage/stickyness.
Murloc Knight looks like crap at 4 health. The only way i see it working is with fencing coach in some weird murlocesk inspire deck.
Warhorse is a decent arena card and will grant mid range paladin value out of their muster before 5 mana.
Argent lance is just bad okay
Tuskar Jouster is an inferior healbot when you are counting on the heal and in control matchups an inferior 5 drop. The card looks cute(as in the picture) but its nothing special. I will experiment with it though even if its a card that tries to do 2 things at once.
Enter the coliseum might be what a big minion based control paladin needs to be viable.
Eadric the pure might be what a big minion based control paladin needs to be viable.
Challenger is junk at 6 mana for the deck it will have to run a ton of those lousey 1 mana secrets. Paladin does not have the draw to throw a bunch of filler cards in with a summoning sickness finisher. You are better off ditching the secret theme and playing an aggro paladin using that 6 mana to just end the game.
All in all and this is not exclusive to paladins the expansion offered a lot of what if cards that make new decks so lets hope the patron meta changes.
Trump made some really good points as of why Competitive Spirit is not as good (even in eboladin) as we might think it is. Sadly I forgot it, but he will upload the video surely, so just look it up. - the reason I remember they were good points, because I was almost surely it will be a staple in aggro paladin, but I remember saying "oooh, that's true" to myself while watching Trump throwing it into the dustbin, haha.
Murlock Knight is good because of the 4 health. I'm pretty sure it would be broken at 5. Most of the streamers who eviewed TGT realized this as well. Once again, check out Trump's vid (might be already up) about this knight, he explains why exactly it is actually good.
It's weird seeing Tuskarr being talked down. The thing almost everyone agreed with, after Varian being very good, is that Touskarr Jouster is amazing. It basically always heals you for 7 vs aggro, and has a decent body, while having a 5/5 for 5 is very much OK versus control, and no one really cares if you win a joust there or not. Both Kibler and Trump said that it's basically a Guardian of Kings for 2 less mana. I'm definitely throwing out my Healbot.
IM SO EXCITED FOR EADRIC THOUGH! I'm afraid that he might suck, but I believe that he is very very decent and can be an amazing 7 drop in control P.
On August 23 2015 04:08 Fi0na wrote: I don't get all the hatred for Enter the Coliseum. You have a small board, your opponent has a way stronger board. You soften up their biggest guy with your small board, Enter the Coliseum, finish it off with what you were left with. Yes, you have to deal with one big guy, but other than that it is way more reliable board clear then Brawl. Maybe not as strong in the best case scenario, but reliable. Or would you rather prefer a random card with a random effect that does random things?
The thing you are ignoring is the sad thing is Equality does Enter the Colliseum's job much better in that scenario. No one is comparing it to Brawl because even within the Paladin class its pretty weak as a removal option unless you really need 5 lots of removal
This again. This kind of thought process is why Trump's reviews were unwatchable. Here's a new card which is familiar and is dismissed as "but equality+consecration am i rite?" It seriously irritates me, especially after being through said reviews by Trump and the Kripp ones as well.
ETC and the combo are different enough to warrant a lenghtier discussion. First of all, and this is the most annoying, why couldn't both the combo AND this card be run? Like two consecrations, because it's awesome, and flexible: great against aggro and midrange, while equality ensures that it has another use versus bigger creatures as well. Okay, but what if not every game will be played against facehunter or eboladin? Is it imaginable that 1 (or maybe 2) Equality could be run with 2 Consecrations and an Enter The Coliseum? I don't even care if it's a stupid idea, it seems obvious to mention it.
Control Warrior got a new card almost everyone agrees it's THE BEST EVER. Dragon Warrior also got significantly better, and Dragons are kinda huge. Handlocks are still going to be handlocks. Control Priests might return, but that 2 drop which promotes Dragon Priest is really great, so Dragon Priest might be a thing, and Dragons are still huge, so having an Enter The Coliseum in your heavy Control Paladin might not be the worst idea ever. But don't forget Aviana and Astral Communion who will either fade away as "the cute cards which could have been" or they actually become a nightmare to deal with. Okay, probably not Astral COmmunion, but Aviana can work.
Also, what about deck efficency? Is 1 EQ+2CC+1ETC worse than 2EQ+2CC? If you ran the latter in a Control Pally, shouldn't you run Wild Pyromancers as well, so you don't have to a.) pray to actually draw the combo b.) being able to play it earlier? If so, wouldn't the deck with -1EQ +1ETC could get rid of the Pyromancers? Sure, it means you can't clear board before turn 6, but maybe you do not even need to OR it worths having 2 new cards instead of the Pyromancers.
On the other hand, maybe you have to use an Equality because some Druid innervated out something that has to be dealt with asap, or that pesky Priest is up to some shenanigans like they always are. If you run one Equality, you just lost your boardclear, but even if you run 2, it might still wouldn't hurt to have something else as a backup.
It's not even that bad versus aggro. Yeah, Consecration is much better, but how much does it really matter if you only have an Equality in your hand from the combo or an ETC?
ETC also has the advantage to actually come out with something meaningful on the board. If you used the combo before, everything you had on the board became extremely weak. With ETC+a weapon equipped, it's not unimaginable, to still have something bulky on the board, while your opponent has nothing.
I understand that saying "lel, worse than brawl, nothx by onto the next card, gotta finish fast" is much easier than actually try to see the big picture and put this card in a.) a Paladin deck, because Paladin is not equal with Warrior, so no one really cares if Warrior would never play this and b.) a TGT meta.
All I can hear in my mind is Forsen saying clown fiesta. To be honest, the reason I read/watch card reviews (forgot to mention Kibler, he does a nice job as well, will be looking forward to his ETC analysis), because I want to hear one of the best and/or most talented players opinion on these new cards, because they will surely see and understand things I wouldn't, and not to be bombarded with basic concepts like Equality+Consecration is a better board clear than ETC, or that RIGHT NOW probably no one would play that card. Like, what the hell, are we just ignoring the other 130+ cards or what?
As I said if the meta ever starts requiring 5 lots of removal thats when ETC will be played.
Also you seem to forget that the current style of control Paladin should always have some sort of minion on board due to the hero power / muster / sticky minions like Shield bot / shredder etc. Which means that Equality on its own is perfectly acceptable as a form of board clear in the situations that ETC would also be used. You don't always need the combo to play out Equality.
If you're against aggro if you use ETC you've probably just wasted your turn 6 not fully clearing the board which only puts more pressure on you as your oponent deals more free damage to you which is why in that scenario i'd rather have a Consecration even in a TGT meta which as we've seen probably isn't going to slow the game down too much to the point the 5th form of removal is needed.
Saying 5th would make sense in a Warrior deck, because Execute and Shield Slam almost certainly kills their targets, but Equality-Consecration is different. Once again, you created scenarios where Equality will always happen when you have some stuff on your board, and Consecration always drawn when your opponent only has 2 or less health creatures. Just no, don't do that. I mean, should I say now what if you opponent just shadowflamed your board and dropped down 2 Molten giants to a board with some more stuff on it already, and you have an Equality OR Consecration in your hand, but not both? Bam, ETC suddenly is the best card a Pally could wish for as a one off.
Anyway, ETC has the advantage of being almost the same as the combo, but in one card, while the other two cards are much more flexible. Kinda like Brawl and the 4 other removal in Warriors! Except you can actually control ETC, but even if you can't, why is that Warriors can run Brawl, or even two of them, but if Pally gets a Brawl is 2/10? Come the F on, Paladin can be so much more screwed than Warrior in removals. Sometimes you need to Equality or Consecrate for only one minion, because Paladin has no 3 mana hard removal nor a 2 mana deal 3 damage spell.
And as I mentioned earlier, Murlock Knight got a freakin' 2 (!!!) as well, when it can be as snowbally as the Quartermaster-Muster combo, while Mysterious Challenger got a 6 (I do not even...), when it requires a gimmicky deck to begin with. Yeah, maybe Murlock Knight won't be played, because Shredder is a 10/10, so even if MK would be a 9,5/10, Shredder could still just force it into being unplayed, but giving it a 2 is just a very poor judgement.
The only thing which could save these ratings if this was a satire with some witty reasons as for why a perfectly nice fit into Midrange Pally gets a 2, while one of the most gimmicky class cards get a 6. Mysterious challenger is better than Healing wave!!!!!
In the situation where you've just been shadowflamed and lost your board then got two Molten's against you if you can't deal with both Molten's you've probably lost. I'm not sure how spending 6 mana for essentially a BGH is worth it. You have to remember that a lot of the Warrior's minions come from its battlecry Value so they don't mind sacking the board as much as Paladins so who really want to take control of the board then win the game due to their lack of burst damage. They are very different classes with very different win conditions which is what you are forgetting.
Control Paladin should be more than okay to stall the game as long as possible, since their hero power basically beats everyone in a fatigue game. I can't see control paladins freaking out by the thought of having another slow card in their deck which crushes the opponent's board. If control Warrior resurges, then that alone might be enough for control Paladins to return. Eadric alone makes Varian cry, but I remember Lifecoaches control pally with Kel'Thuzad and two piloted sky golems... The dream is obviously a Kel'Thuzad+board going into the Coliseum, but sky golems are also great candidates for being in an ETC.
edit: whoops, Kibler already reviewed the paladin cards.
Another sweet card for midrange and control Paladin decks, though it does seem like Paladins have something of an embarassment of riches when it comes to board sweeper effects. This card is especially cool because you get to dictate the terms of it on your own turn. You can easily trade in your entire board except for your biggest minion to kill your opponent’s biggest creature, and then finish that off with your remaining fatty.
That said, six is a lot of mana for a card that can’t help if you’re behind to a big minion, and Paladin already has powerful board clears that are more versatile in the form of Equality and Consecration. Maybe this could be a sweet card for something like Dragon Paladin to help take control of the game against other midrange or control decks. The world where this card is powerful is one in which midrange board stalls are common, and while that doesn’t seem to be the world we live in, maybe it will be at some point after TGT release. This card is worth keeping an eye on.
Yeah, almost as informal than the one sentence we were honored with in this article, giving it a two.
On August 23 2015 06:37 Noidberg wrote: Tuskar Jouster is an inferior healbot when you are counting on the heal and in control matchups an inferior 5 drop. The card looks cute(as in the picture) but its nothing special. I will experiment with it though even if its a card that tries to do 2 things at once.
I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around whatever logic you're using here.
On August 23 2015 06:37 Noidberg wrote: Tuskar Jouster is an inferior healbot when you are counting on the heal and in control matchups an inferior 5 drop. The card looks cute(as in the picture) but its nothing special. I will experiment with it though even if its a card that tries to do 2 things at once.
I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around whatever logic you're using here.
How so? Even if you hit the heal 70% of the time against aggro decks what about the times you dont? Against face hunter you count on healbot for the health gain not the stats so missing it would be game ending. As for control matchups there are way better 5 drops than a vanilla 5 drop such as harrison,theb, consort. Sure the RNG is in your favor by naturally having a higher curve against aggressive decks but its still RNG.
Good RNG cards are usually tempo cards btw so if you have a slow card like tuskar and miss that roll goodbye game. This is not true as much for cards such as implosion where the warlock already has board or unstable portal which costs 2 mana, again the mage should have a board at that point.
What i would like is a solid say 5 mana 5/5 heal for 5 no RNG attached. If they want control paladin to be viable it needs something slightly overbudget that always works like warriors win axe or shieldmaiden. Everyone knows guardian of kings should be 6 mana to be competitive, Hammer could be 3 mana, seal of light could be 3 damage, argent lance could be 3 damage. Point is control paladins havent received any power creep since the base set and their position on the power ranks continues to support this.
On August 23 2015 06:37 Noidberg wrote: Tuskar Jouster is an inferior healbot when you are counting on the heal and in control matchups an inferior 5 drop. The card looks cute(as in the picture) but its nothing special. I will experiment with it though even if its a card that tries to do 2 things at once.
I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around whatever logic you're using here.
How so? Even if you hit the heal 70% of the time against aggro decks what about the times you dont? Against face hunter you count on healbot for the health gain not the stats so missing it would be game ending. As for control matchups there are way better 5 drops than a vanilla 5 drop such as harrison,theb, consort. Sure the RNG is in your favor by naturally having a higher curve against aggressive decks but its still RNG.
Good RNG cards are usually tempo cards btw so if you have a slow card like tuskar and miss that roll goodbye game. This is not true as much for cards such as implosion where the warlock already has board or unstable portal which costs 2 mana, again the mage should have a board at that point.
What i would like is a solid say 5 mana 5/5 heal for 5 no RNG attached. If they want control paladin to be viable it needs something slightly overbudget that always works like warriors win axe or shieldmaiden. Everyone knows guardian of kings should be 6 mana to be competitive, Hammer could be 3 mana, seal of light could be 3 damage, argent lance could be 3 damage. Point is control paladins havent received any power creep since the base set and their position on the power ranks continues to support this.
The most expensive minion in a Face Hunter costs 3, the odds of losing that joust are infinitesimal if not 0. And believe it or not, the body attached to Antique Healbot matters, saying it makes no difference in the Face Hunter matchup is ridiculous. Also, the 5/5 body is exactly what makes it ok in the case where you're against a higher-range deck and lose the joust. It kills Sludge Belcher and trades with Loatheb and Thaurissan. What exactly is the problem with doing 2 things if the card succeeds?
On August 23 2015 06:37 Noidberg wrote: Tuskar Jouster is an inferior healbot when you are counting on the heal and in control matchups an inferior 5 drop. The card looks cute(as in the picture) but its nothing special. I will experiment with it though even if its a card that tries to do 2 things at once.
I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around whatever logic you're using here.
How so? Even if you hit the heal 70% of the time against aggro decks what about the times you dont? Against face hunter you count on healbot for the health gain not the stats so missing it would be game ending. As for control matchups there are way better 5 drops than a vanilla 5 drop such as harrison,theb, consort. Sure the RNG is in your favor by naturally having a higher curve against aggressive decks but its still RNG.
Good RNG cards are usually tempo cards btw so if you have a slow card like tuskar and miss that roll goodbye game. This is not true as much for cards such as implosion where the warlock already has board or unstable portal which costs 2 mana, again the mage should have a board at that point.
What i would like is a solid say 5 mana 5/5 heal for 5 no RNG attached. If they want control paladin to be viable it needs something slightly overbudget that always works like warriors win axe or shieldmaiden. Everyone knows guardian of kings should be 6 mana to be competitive, Hammer could be 3 mana, seal of light could be 3 damage, argent lance could be 3 damage. Point is control paladins havent received any power creep since the base set and their position on the power ranks continues to support this.
The most expensive minion in a Face Hunter costs 3, the odds of losing that joust are infinitesimal if not 0. And believe it or not, the body attached to Antique Healbot matters, saying it makes no difference in the Face Hunter matchup is ridiculous. Also, the 5/5 body is exactly what makes it ok in the case where you're against a higher-range deck and lose the joust. It kills Sludge Belcher and trades with Loatheb and Thaurissan. What exactly is the problem with doing 2 things if the card succeeds?
And the cheapest minion in paladin is 1. Unless control works without the staple zombie chows(best anti aggro card in the game) or minibots, pyros you still have a chance of outright losing with tuskar. The heal is still the most important factor against aggro decks even if the +2/2 stats of course helps. As for control its a fair 5/5 but you can be doing much more with other cards. If paladin had a win axe i would agree this card would be insane but sadly thats not the case.
On August 23 2015 14:12 Noidberg wrote: And the cheapest minion in paladin is 1. Unless control works without the staple zombie chows(best anti aggro card in the game) or minibots, pyros you still have a chance of outright losing with tuskar. The heal is still the most important factor against aggro decks even if the +2/2 stats of course helps. As for control its a fair 5/5 but you can be doing much more with other cards. If paladin had a win axe i would agree this card would be insane but sadly thats not the case.
Argent Lance is as close as Paladin will get to having a War Axe, and with Muster you have a set of solid early-game cards for a joust-focused deck. Even with Zombie Chow and Shielded Minibot, the odds would still be overwhelmingly in your favor, especially if you drew them beforehand.
You say you could be running better cards against control, but what about decks that use Healbot because they need to? You're implying that Healbot is better than Jouster against control as well, unless there's something about your argument you'd like to revise. Also the most annoying thing for a Face Hunter is to have to invest in killing a minion because it puts them on a shorter clock than yours. The card is fine, but hey, you just have to wait a day or two to find out.
For sure i will try it out. What gives me hope though is you can easily run tuskar as a 2 of while double healbots hurts your control matchups too much.
Edit: Heres the deck i made that might be what control paladin is looking for in TGT.
On August 23 2015 14:37 Noidberg wrote: For sure i will try it out. What gives me hope though is you can easily run tuskar as a 2 of while double healbots hurts your control matchups too much.
That's more or less what I'm saying, the strength of the card comes from it giving you the vital healing when you need it, without sacrifing stats in other matchups. There's currently no single card that gives you that much coverage for Paladins across the different matchups, and for control Paladin that's something they desperately need.
All I heard about Lifecoach's reviews is that he absolutely hated the vast majority of the new cards. I start one of his review videos, the first card is Murlock Knight. Lifecoach says it's actually good. What can I say...
Reynad did wreck Enter The Coliseum though, but the most interesting thing in his reviews was that he actually foreshadows a much faster meta and that the inspire mechanic may very well work for some classes like Pally. It's funny how this week's tavern brawl made such a terrible job making jousting and inspire look good by making two terrible decks fight against each other.
I recommend watching the other part of his reviews, there are only a very very few cards where it feels like he fazed out and did not talk about them as in depth as possible.
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
Now that we look back at GvG, how many cards were really good?
Dr. Balanced? Mech? About half of the class legendaries? I'd wager GvG is also 75% bad cards...
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
Now that we look back at GvG, how many cards were really good?
Dr. Balanced? Mech? About half of the class legendaries? I'd wager GvG is also 75% bad cards...
Exactly we go in expecting the worse because generally what happens. Statistically most of these cards will suck and generally speaking they do. Bringing up Patron which is one of like 3-4 cards actually usable from BRM doesn't really strengthen the arguement (Plus Patron was considered bad because at the time Warsong was unusable due to a bug)
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
Now that we look back at GvG, how many cards were really good?
Dr. Balanced? Mech? About half of the class legendaries? I'd wager GvG is also 75% bad cards...
Exactly we go in expecting the worse because generally what happens. Statistically most of these cards will suck and generally speaking they do. Bringing up Patron which is one of like 3-4 cards actually usable from BRM doesn't really strengthen the arguement (Plus Patron was considered bad because at the time Warsong was unusable due to a bug)
Still I think this list is way too pessimistic, just dismissing everything out of hand isn't a way to review a new set.
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
Now that we look back at GvG, how many cards were really good?
Dr. Balanced? Mech? About half of the class legendaries? I'd wager GvG is also 75% bad cards...
Exactly we go in expecting the worse because generally what happens. Statistically most of these cards will suck and generally speaking they do. Bringing up Patron which is one of like 3-4 cards actually usable from BRM doesn't really strengthen the arguement (Plus Patron was considered bad because at the time Warsong was unusable due to a bug)
Still I think this list is way too pessimistic, just dismissing everything out of hand isn't a way to review a new set.
Even the "better" reviews have thrown most of the cards out that Liquidhearth has. There are some exceptions with some people but for the most part this is a pretty depressing expansion.
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
Now that we look back at GvG, how many cards were really good?
Dr. Balanced? Mech? About half of the class legendaries? I'd wager GvG is also 75% bad cards...
Exactly we go in expecting the worse because generally what happens. Statistically most of these cards will suck and generally speaking they do. Bringing up Patron which is one of like 3-4 cards actually usable from BRM doesn't really strengthen the arguement (Plus Patron was considered bad because at the time Warsong was unusable due to a bug)
Still I think this list is way too pessimistic, just dismissing everything out of hand isn't a way to review a new set.
Even the "better" reviews have thrown most of the cards out that Liquidhearth has. There are some exceptions with some people but for the most part this is a pretty depressing expansion.
It's true that inspire decks won't be a thing while aggro decks exist.
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
Now that we look back at GvG, how many cards were really good?
Dr. Balanced? Mech? About half of the class legendaries? I'd wager GvG is also 75% bad cards...
Exactly we go in expecting the worse because generally what happens. Statistically most of these cards will suck and generally speaking they do. Bringing up Patron which is one of like 3-4 cards actually usable from BRM doesn't really strengthen the arguement (Plus Patron was considered bad because at the time Warsong was unusable due to a bug)
I have seen cases where the damage of two Frothing Berserker s alone is enough to OTK. So even if they didn't fix Warsong Commander I still think the Grim Patron Warrior deck could see some play
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
Now that we look back at GvG, how many cards were really good?
Dr. Balanced? Mech? About half of the class legendaries? I'd wager GvG is also 75% bad cards...
Exactly we go in expecting the worse because generally what happens. Statistically most of these cards will suck and generally speaking they do. Bringing up Patron which is one of like 3-4 cards actually usable from BRM doesn't really strengthen the arguement (Plus Patron was considered bad because at the time Warsong was unusable due to a bug)
Still I think this list is way too pessimistic, just dismissing everything out of hand isn't a way to review a new set.
Even the "better" reviews have thrown most of the cards out that Liquidhearth has. There are some exceptions with some people but for the most part this is a pretty depressing expansion.
Trump's review was slightly more promising than an MTG review for a given set. For example, looking at LSV's review of the most recent MTG set, he had 120 cards that might see play in a 272 card set, including as fringe sideboard play. Adding up just the cards Trump considered great/good is 48, and he had at least another 20 or so that he thought were fringe (in the bad column)
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
Now that we look back at GvG, how many cards were really good?
Dr. Balanced? Mech? About half of the class legendaries? I'd wager GvG is also 75% bad cards...
Exactly we go in expecting the worse because generally what happens. Statistically most of these cards will suck and generally speaking they do. Bringing up Patron which is one of like 3-4 cards actually usable from BRM doesn't really strengthen the arguement (Plus Patron was considered bad because at the time Warsong was unusable due to a bug)
Still I think this list is way too pessimistic, just dismissing everything out of hand isn't a way to review a new set.
Even the "better" reviews have thrown most of the cards out that Liquidhearth has. There are some exceptions with some people but for the most part this is a pretty depressing expansion.
What? Did you actually wtahced/read them?
Trump - started out as an "everything is garbage" reviewer, but got to his senses, and actually praised some cards, while giving many others the benefit of doubt, which is not equal to ratings like 1,2 or 3, maybe not even 4s. Reading this awful review actually made me think they rated cards from 1-5, then I saw the first 5+ rating and I was like waaaaiiiit a minute...
Kripp - His review is the closest to this one, he did label a bunch of cards as garbage. He's also someone who barely plays constructed and the last time he possibly made a decent constructed deck was when I was over the top when I got a Scarlet Crusader in beta, because she looked so cool. He said that the epic dragon with taunt is garbage, lmao. Go figure. (I do love Kripp, but had to be critical here. I watched last night's tournament for like 15 mins, and during that, Trump corrected him about stuff at least 4 times. It's just not Kripp's area.)
Strifecro - He was really open minded and pretty positive towards this expansion. No, he wouldn't give everything an 8+ either, but he saw further than "WELL I WOULD NOT PUT THIS INTO ANY EXISTING DECKS RIGHT NOW SO I'M GOING TO ROLL MY 3-SIDED DICE. LET'S SEE. TWO. ALL RIGHT THEN!" sigh
Reynad - Easily the best reviews, just finished the last parts of them today. It is so refreshing hearing someone thinking even more outside of the box than others. It's like, he understood that Blizz does not release one card at a time and he managed to not fall into hyperboles. Murlock Knight has been mentioned already (and will be, because it's so ridiculous), but Dark Bargain caught my attention as well - a card which Amaz praised too. Liquidhearth reviewers headbutted the wall and gave it a two. Reynad on the other hand sounded like someone who actually played Warlock, and understood that this card could be played as a one off, since it is not hard to empty your hand with certain Warlock archetypes (zoo, anyone?). He also solved the Liquidhearth-paradox about "but what if it kills their 1/1?!! This card is bad then!" by realizing that you actually play a bunch of small minions, so you can just trade into their small stuff to guarantee kills on their bigger minions, which you couldn't take out by creepers, flame imps, or whatever. And as for Fist of Jaraxxus... geez, no one said you HAVE TO combine that with this card. If you can, it's awesome, but Dark Bargain can work on its' own. Reynad did not say that this is easily a 9/10 or anything like that, but giving it a 2 (T W O) and backing it up with some terrible arguments...
Kibler - Now he is easily the most positive guy out of the reviewers I've watched/read, but that's his nature. He loves his dragons, and he'd really like if all the cards would work out. He was still somewhat down to earth, and was critical with some of the cards. I'm not saying being overly positive is better than the Liquidhearth review's theme of "this sucks, everything sucks, someone play something from My Chemical Romance, now!!", but at least Kibler also gave well thought out arguments. For example, at the end of the day, he wasn't too sold on Enter The Coliseum either, but it's like he realized it's not a Warrior card and explained what needs to change in the meta for it to be possibly included in PALADIN (still not Warrior) decks.
Forsen - Only saw his reviews about the finally revealed cards, and he had some crazy theories, like saying Void Crusher will be good, haha. But I do not mind bold statements like that. Aside from that, he was kinda polarized. Liked some weird cards other did not (like Wildwalker), but was fast to dismiss some others. Though we should mention that his review was not a dedicated one, he really did it "Forsen-style", but I'm pretty sure he'll still be closer to the truth than LH.
Amaz - Okay, I am fairly sure Amaz was quite dumb about some cards, like reaaally dumb, but I liked how he called out some cards which are probably overvalued, while having a top 5 list as well about the unsung heroes. He also realized that Dark Bargain is actually everythng but a 2/10 and so is Murlock Knight.
Lifecoach - I already said that I only read others opinion about his reviews, while only actually seen two cards reviewed by him. People said he was very critical and pessimist about TGT. The two cards I saw him review? He melted from Varian (okay, that's not surprising) and said that Murlock Knight is good. Lifecoach. Murlock Knight. Good. I let it sink. Based on his review, it was probably a 6/10 by him, but basically everyone realized this among the reviewers I watched/read.
It's honorable from you to try to defend this review, but it really seems helpless. And sorry to be mean as I close this out, but for those who forgot: Argent Lance - a card about which streamers/pro players unanimously agree that it sucks big time - got a rating of 2, with a possibility of a 3 from these guys. Murlock Knight, Dark Bargain are 2. Acidmaw is 1. Chillmaw is 3. Powershot is 3. Wyrmerst Agent is 4 - it's actually more revolting than Murlock Knight's 2. But do not worry, Mysterious Challenger is a 6, despite the only new Paladin secret got a rating of 3.
On August 23 2015 06:37 Noidberg wrote: Tuskar Jouster is an inferior healbot when you are counting on the heal and in control matchups an inferior 5 drop. The card looks cute(as in the picture) but its nothing special. I will experiment with it though even if its a card that tries to do 2 things at once.
I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around whatever logic you're using here.
How so? Even if you hit the heal 70% of the time against aggro decks what about the times you dont? Against face hunter you count on healbot for the health gain not the stats so missing it would be game ending. As for control matchups there are way better 5 drops than a vanilla 5 drop such as harrison,theb, consort. Sure the RNG is in your favor by naturally having a higher curve against aggressive decks but its still RNG.
Good RNG cards are usually tempo cards btw so if you have a slow card like tuskar and miss that roll goodbye game. This is not true as much for cards such as implosion where the warlock already has board or unstable portal which costs 2 mana, again the mage should have a board at that point.
What i would like is a solid say 5 mana 5/5 heal for 5 no RNG attached. If they want control paladin to be viable it needs something slightly overbudget that always works like warriors win axe or shieldmaiden. Everyone knows guardian of kings should be 6 mana to be competitive, Hammer could be 3 mana, seal of light could be 3 damage, argent lance could be 3 damage. Point is control paladins havent received any power creep since the base set and their position on the power ranks continues to support this.
well, it probably increases your winrate against control, since a 5/5 for 5 is decent, and maybe slightly decreases your winrate against aggro. Its a tradeoff, but I think itll be a favorable one.
On August 24 2015 00:39 gobbledydook wrote: I really think some imagination is sorely lacking in this review; I'm guessing the writer never thought patron would be a thing.
I mean for the most part the reviews are harsh but to be fair a lot of TGT is pretty god damn awful. Trump had it as only 18 cards in the entire set were amazing with 30 being good and the rest being trash with maybe some potential aka 75% of the set being bad
Now that we look back at GvG, how many cards were really good?
Dr. Balanced? Mech? About half of the class legendaries? I'd wager GvG is also 75% bad cards...
Exactly we go in expecting the worse because generally what happens. Statistically most of these cards will suck and generally speaking they do. Bringing up Patron which is one of like 3-4 cards actually usable from BRM doesn't really strengthen the arguement (Plus Patron was considered bad because at the time Warsong was unusable due to a bug)
Still I think this list is way too pessimistic, just dismissing everything out of hand isn't a way to review a new set.
Even the "better" reviews have thrown most of the cards out that Liquidhearth has. There are some exceptions with some people but for the most part this is a pretty depressing expansion.
What? Did you actually wtahced/read them?
Trump - started out as an "everything is garbage" reviewer, but got to his senses, and actually praised some cards, while giving many others the benefit of doubt, which is not equal to ratings like 1,2 or 3, maybe not even 4s. Reading this awful review actually made me think they rated cards from 1-5, then I saw the first 5+ rating and I was like waaaaiiiit a minute...
Kripp - His review is the closest to this one, he did label a bunch of cards as garbage. He's also someone who barely plays constructed and the last time he possibly made a decent constructed deck was when I was over the top when I got a Scarlet Crusader in beta, because she looked so cool. He said that the epic dragon with taunt is garbage, lmao. Go figure. (I do love Kripp, but had to be critical here. I watched last night's tournament for like 15 mins, and during that, Trump corrected him about stuff at least 4 times. It's just not Kripp's area.)
Strifecro - He was really open minded and pretty positive towards this expansion. No, he wouldn't give everything an 8+ either, but he saw further than "WELL I WOULD NOT PUT THIS INTO ANY EXISTING DECKS RIGHT NOW SO I'M GOING TO ROLL MY 3-SIDED DICE. LET'S SEE. TWO. ALL RIGHT THEN!" sigh
Reynad - Easily the best reviews, just finished the last parts of them today. It is so refreshing hearing someone thinking even more outside of the box than others. It's like, he understood that Blizz does not release one card at a time and he managed to not fall into hyperboles. Murlock Knight has been mentioned already (and will be, because it's so ridiculous), but Dark Bargain caught my attention as well - a card which Amaz praised too. Liquidhearth reviewers headbutted the wall and gave it a two. Reynad on the other hand sounded like someone who actually played Warlock, and understood that this card could be played as a one off, since it is not hard to empty your hand with certain Warlock archetypes (zoo, anyone?). He also solved the Liquidhearth-paradox about "but what if it kills their 1/1?!! This card is bad then!" by realizing that you actually play a bunch of small minions, so you can just trade into their small stuff to guarantee kills on their bigger minions, which you couldn't take out by creepers, flame imps, or whatever. And as for Fist of Jaraxxus... geez, no one said you HAVE TO combine that with this card. If you can, it's awesome, but Dark Bargain can work on its' own. Reynad did not say that this is easily a 9/10 or anything like that, but giving it a 2 (T W O) and backing it up with some terrible arguments...
Kibler - Now he is easily the most positive guy out of the reviewers I've watched/read, but that's his nature. He loves his dragons, and he'd really like if all the cards would work out. He was still somewhat down to earth, and was critical with some of the cards. I'm not saying being overly positive is better than the Liquidhearth review's theme of "this sucks, everything sucks, someone play something from My Chemical Romance, now!!", but at least Kibler also gave well thought out arguments. For example, at the end of the day, he wasn't too sold on Enter The Coliseum either, but it's like he realized it's not a Warrior card and explained what needs to change in the meta for it to be possibly included in PALADIN (still not Warrior) decks.
Forsen - Only saw his reviews about the finally revealed cards, and he had some crazy theories, like saying Void Crusher will be good, haha. But I do not mind bold statements like that. Aside from that, he was kinda polarized. Liked some weird cards other did not (like Wildwalker), but was fast to dismiss some others. Though we should mention that his review was not a dedicated one, he really did it "Forsen-style", but I'm pretty sure he'll still be closer to the truth than LH.
Amaz - Okay, I am fairly sure Amaz was quite dumb about some cards, like reaaally dumb, but I liked how he called out some cards which are probably overvalued, while having a top 5 list as well about the unsung heroes. He also realized that Dark Bargain is actually everythng but a 2/10 and so is Murlock Knight.
Lifecoach - I already said that I only read others opinion about his reviews, while only actually seen two cards reviewed by him. People said he was very critical and pessimist about TGT. The two cards I saw him review? He melted from Varian (okay, that's not surprising) and said that Murlock Knight is good. Lifecoach. Murlock Knight. Good. I let it sink. Based on his review, it was probably a 6/10 by him, but basically everyone realized this among the reviewers I watched/read.
It's honorable from you to try to defend this review, but it really seems helpless. And sorry to be mean as I close this out, but for those who forgot: Argent Lance - a card about which streamers/pro players unanimously agree that it sucks big time - got a rating of 2, with a possibility of a 3 from these guys. Murlock Knight, Dark Bargain are 2. Acidmaw is 1. Chillmaw is 3. Powershot is 3. Wyrmerst Agent is 4 - it's actually more revolting than Murlock Knight's 2. But do not worry, Mysterious Challenger is a 6, despite the only new Paladin secret got a rating of 3.
Oh I don't really care what the actual numbers are for each card. The rating system was poorly implemented in the first article and its still bad now. Its the actual text and opinion of if a card is good / bad what is important and general opinion of most cards.
I watched most of the reviews and even in Trump's last review he still slated 70% of TGT as worthless. I mean yes the numbering system in these articles is dumb but getting worked up over it when the general opinion of "Is it good or bad" is a little more important. Also remember that on a first review that most people thought Murloc Knight sucked it was only after the maths was done and people reflected more that it was considered passable much in the same way Confessor was seen as good at first but is now considered average due to the maths involved.
On August 22 2015 03:30 Zaros wrote: I get the feeling that the raters are very pessimistic, lots of the ratings are far too low and cards that I've seen other players call top tier have been rated at like 2 or 3. Lots of stuff seems to be evaluated poorly especially stuff like murloc knight, chillmaw, dark bargain and enter the coliseum.
Remember that this is constructed. I don't think Murloc Knight is completely worthless given the only reason Murloc Warlock works is because you can Tap to get more Murlocs that said it is mostly worthless given the current state of Murlocs
this is exactly why its badly evaluated, I don't think you only consider it in a murloc deck, its an inspire card, i've just done the maths and the average stats you get from the inspire is the 1/1 dude + a 2.08/2.42 murloc. This doesn't include the +2/+1 stats you get from the warleader or the +1 atk from old murk eye or the 1/1 murloc. On turn 6 with a hero power this guy throws out on average 6/7 stats in 3 separate bodies all with synergy. If he gets more than 1 inspire off its actually insane value.
Well, first of all the stat line is 6/6.5 distributed over 3. Hogger has 6/6 in stats plus taunt (and generates value automatically) yet it's not a popular card. You gotta realize there are a lot of powerful cards at the 6 mana level, which the the level at which murloc knight is evaluated (obviously not at 4 mana - shredder is looking at you for that) - PSG, Syl, Cairne, TBK, Emperor, etc.
I agree it's probably better than a 2, but it's not that good of a card in the grand scheme of things.
On August 24 2015 15:12 Geo.Rion wrote: So Varian draws 3 cards, and if they arent minions u get to keep them or they go back into the deck?
Yes. On top of that, if the drawn cards would normally be "burned" if they get you above 10 in hand, they won't be burned if they are minions, as they are directly put into play.
I mean I play a lot of control warrior on legend rank. Why do you guys think a 10 mana 7/7, draw 3 cards is good?
- vs aggro: you already won when you able to play something 8+ mana it without fearing death, 10 mana sitting in you hand is even worse than 8 mana sitting in your hand. - vs. control: On 10 mana you have drawn half of your deck in best case. In worst case. this card is in your last 5 cards. When you play it you use your whole turn to have a 7/7 + some random stuff in addition on your board. This might be good, but on the other side you deny all battlecries, you MAY overextend the board making it easy for your opponent to play brawl, equality-combos, shadow flame, dark bomb etc., also in a lot of cases you just bring you 3 turns to fatigue death. I don't see the real adavantage. You need to tweak your deck, play less battlecry effects and on the end you have a semi-good effect - vs. midrange: If you're able to play 10 mana without fearing death you usually already in a good state. If you fear death you need to HOPE varian brings something defensive into play. "Defensive" means NO shieldmaiden because of battlecry but more taunt minion.
All in all I don't think it will be played in traditional control warrior. Maybe in a more minion based midrange deck but not sure.
Similarly all Druids got what is arguably the best hard removal in the game: Mulch which will enormously help them when it comes to dealing with big creatures.
Druid already has the best hard removal card in Naturalize and I still think that this card is a better removal than Mulch because it is 2 mana cheaper and the drawbacks are comparable. Naturalize draws your opponnent 2 cards so the opponnent will have 2 more cards to choose from next turn and Mulch will only make him have one more card next turn but will not create a card he would not have under normal circumstances, what I'm trying to say is Naturalize gives your opponnent more decisions but cards he would have drawn the next turns anyways so for me both have their drawbacks and therefore the 1 Mana hard removal wins over the 3 Mana hard removal in my opinion.
Similarly all Druids got what is arguably the best hard removal in the game: Mulch which will enormously help them when it comes to dealing with big creatures.
Druid already has the best hard removal card in Naturalize and I still think that this card is a better removal than Mulch because it is 2 mana cheaper and the drawbacks are comparable. Naturalize draws your opponnent 2 cards so the opponnent will have 2 more cards to choose from next turn and Mulch will only make him have one more card next turn but will not create a card he would not have under normal circumstances, what I'm trying to say is Naturalize gives your opponnent more decisions but cards he would have drawn the next turns anyways so for me both have their drawbacks and therefore the 1 Mana hard removal wins over the 3 Mana hard removal in my opinion.
There is a big difference in drawing cards from your deck (meaning they synergize well with your deck) and drawing a random X cost minion. Mulch can be used as a strong tempo play (like sap) on big minions because you know he'll get a big minion in hand and will probably have to spend his whole turn recasting it. Statisticly most minions do not have a direct impact on board.
With naturalize he can draw spells wich most often do have a direct impact on the board. And a 2 card deficit is tough...
Similarly all Druids got what is arguably the best hard removal in the game: Mulch which will enormously help them when it comes to dealing with big creatures.
Druid already has the best hard removal card in Naturalize and I still think that this card is a better removal than Mulch because it is 2 mana cheaper and the drawbacks are comparable. Naturalize draws your opponnent 2 cards so the opponnent will have 2 more cards to choose from next turn and Mulch will only make him have one more card next turn but will not create a card he would not have under normal circumstances, what I'm trying to say is Naturalize gives your opponnent more decisions but cards he would have drawn the next turns anyways so for me both have their drawbacks and therefore the 1 Mana hard removal wins over the 3 Mana hard removal in my opinion.
You've equated a small downside with a huge downside. I think you are severely underestimating the value of drawing 2 cards for free. Naturalize is not played in constructed (outside of the mostly-just-for-fun mill druid) because it is terrible - giving your opponent card advantage like that is often crippling. The argument that they "would have drawn the next turns anyways" only matters if the game goes to fatigue which few games do - drawing them now is what matters. 2 cards from your deck >>>>> 1 random minion so I think Mulch is an interesting improvement, regardless of mana cost.
Amaz - Okay, I am fairly sure Amaz was quite dumb about some cards, like reaaally dumb, but I liked how he called out some cards which are probably overvalued, while having a top 5 list as well about the unsung heroes. He also realized that Dark Bargain is actually everythng but a 2/10 and so is Murlock Knight.
I might be wrong but I think he was calling Murloc Knight good only for arena.
You've equated a small downside with a huge downside. I think you are severely underestimating the value of drawing 2 cards for free. Naturalize is not played in constructed (outside of the mostly-just-for-fun mill druid) because it is terrible - giving your opponent card advantage like that is often crippling. The argument that they "would have drawn the next turns anyways" only matters if the game goes to fatigue which few games do - drawing them now is what matters. 2 cards from your deck >>>>> 1 random minion so I think Mulch is an interesting improvement, regardless of mana cost.
I just end at rank 5 at the end of most seasons so the following statement can be ignored by better players but I sometimes play Naturalize and it gives me Huge Tempo swings against Midrange and Control Decks. Yes they get 2 cards and yes this means they can choose more options what to play next turn but I just 1 Mana to destroy a 5 Mana card or better. Which means I have enough Mana left to establish my own minions. Yes he draws more answers to them but still he has to pay the regular high Mana for the removal and initiative comes right back to me. So I really do not see the downside as that big. Of course this card sucks against Aggro Decks because you do not get much value and refill their hand with more cheap minions to play, which is bad but Big Game Hunter also sucks against Aggro Decks so I like Naturalize, and in the rarest scenarios it has given my opponnent a game changing/winning card, so I must have been using it correctly I think.
I mean so no one's playing TGT cards in your games, are you really saying that people aren't even experimenting? That's just inconceivable, I know you argued it was a bad set, but don't be ridiculous. That's as extrme as people saying everything in TGT is great and we just can't see it!
Trump is currently putting together a cheap totem-centric midrange Shaman deck after opening his TGT cards. I'll be curious to see how it goes, later I'll also be happy to see what TGT dragon decks Kibler puts together.
On August 25 2015 04:22 Wuster wrote: I mean so no one's playing TGT cards in your games, are you really saying that people aren't even experimenting? That's just inconceivable, I know you argued it was a bad set, but don't be ridiculous. That's as extrme as people saying everything in TGT is great and we just can't see it!
Trump is currently putting together a cheap totem-centric midrange Shaman deck after opening his TGT cards. I'll be curious to see how it goes, later I'll also be happy to see what TGT dragon decks Kibler puts together.
Its more amusing because with GvG / BRM the cards were instantly being experimented with and seeing play but with TGT i'm not seeing anything because people are so uncertain of what is going to actually be usable and what won't be so no one wants to take the risk of playing what could be a dud deck.
Personally i'm in the "lets wait and see camp" and I imagine everyone between rank 5-1 are in the same boat
On August 25 2015 04:22 Wuster wrote: I mean so no one's playing TGT cards in your games, are you really saying that people aren't even experimenting? That's just inconceivable, I know you argued it was a bad set, but don't be ridiculous. That's as extrme as people saying everything in TGT is great and we just can't see it!
Trump is currently putting together a cheap totem-centric midrange Shaman deck after opening his TGT cards. I'll be curious to see how it goes, later I'll also be happy to see what TGT dragon decks Kibler puts together.
And given all the server issues that EU is having right now, I'm sure there are many people who would like to try out TGT cards (me included) but can't because of servers being down
On August 25 2015 04:22 Wuster wrote: I mean so no one's playing TGT cards in your games, are you really saying that people aren't even experimenting? That's just inconceivable, I know you argued it was a bad set, but don't be ridiculous. That's as extrme as people saying everything in TGT is great and we just can't see it!
Trump is currently putting together a cheap totem-centric midrange Shaman deck after opening his TGT cards. I'll be curious to see how it goes, later I'll also be happy to see what TGT dragon decks Kibler puts together.
Its more amusing because with GvG / BRM the cards were instantly being experimented with and seeing play but with TGT i'm not seeing anything because people are so uncertain of what is going to actually be usable and what won't be so no one wants to take the risk of playing what could be a dud deck.
Personally i'm in the "lets wait and see camp" and I imagine everyone between rank 5-1 are in the same boat
Honest question, how late in the season did the last two expansions come out? We're a week away, so people seem hesitant to muck up their rankings (especially since you better grind for better rewards if you're outside r5).
IIRC GvG came out mid-month and BRM of course was rolled out week-to-week, which makes the experimentation process different.
Edit: Trump facing off against Dragon Warrior with Alexstraza's Champion in legend now. Amusing enough he's also predicting he has a really good match-up against Patron Warrior.
On August 25 2015 04:22 Wuster wrote: I mean so no one's playing TGT cards in your games, are you really saying that people aren't even experimenting? That's just inconceivable, I know you argued it was a bad set, but don't be ridiculous. That's as extrme as people saying everything in TGT is great and we just can't see it!
Trump is currently putting together a cheap totem-centric midrange Shaman deck after opening his TGT cards. I'll be curious to see how it goes, later I'll also be happy to see what TGT dragon decks Kibler puts together.
Its more amusing because with GvG / BRM the cards were instantly being experimented with and seeing play but with TGT i'm not seeing anything because people are so uncertain of what is going to actually be usable and what won't be so no one wants to take the risk of playing what could be a dud deck.
Personally i'm in the "lets wait and see camp" and I imagine everyone between rank 5-1 are in the same boat
Honest question, how late in the season did the last two expansions come out? We're a week away, so people seem hesitant to muck up their rankings (especially since you better grind for better rewards if you're outside r5).
IIRC GvG came out mid-month and BRM of course was rolled out week-to-week, which makes the experimentation process different.
Naxx was week to week as was BRM. GvG was like week 2?
And yeah watching Trump now. Maybe Shaman aren't completely dead yet
On August 25 2015 04:22 Wuster wrote: I mean so no one's playing TGT cards in your games, are you really saying that people aren't even experimenting? That's just inconceivable, I know you argued it was a bad set, but don't be ridiculous. That's as extrme as people saying everything in TGT is great and we just can't see it!
Trump is currently putting together a cheap totem-centric midrange Shaman deck after opening his TGT cards. I'll be curious to see how it goes, later I'll also be happy to see what TGT dragon decks Kibler puts together.
Its more amusing because with GvG / BRM the cards were instantly being experimented with and seeing play but with TGT i'm not seeing anything because people are so uncertain of what is going to actually be usable and what won't be so no one wants to take the risk of playing what could be a dud deck.
Personally i'm in the "lets wait and see camp" and I imagine everyone between rank 5-1 are in the same boat
Honest question, how late in the season did the last two expansions come out? We're a week away, so people seem hesitant to muck up their rankings (especially since you better grind for better rewards if you're outside r5).
IIRC GvG came out mid-month and BRM of course was rolled out week-to-week, which makes the experimentation process different.
Edit: Trump facing Dragon Warrior with Alexstraza's Champion in legend now. Amusing enough he's also predicting he has a really good match-up against Patron Warrior.
Goblins vs. Gnomes was released December 8-10th so it was certainly a lot earlier in the season than TGT this time around
Well, Murlock Knight seems to be in the top 5 best cards of TGT. Sure, it's way too early to announce anything, but after watching Reynad and Trump playing it, reading responses from other players (hearthpwn, reddit, even here), and today finally trying it myself. This card is batshit crazy. The value is straight out imbalanced, but the best feeling is that it forces your opponent to throw everything at it. Like, I really don't care if he kills it, it has nothing to do with my win condition, but my opponent can not allow to let this live. Even if he only uses a weapon charge, it's good for me, I already got value out of it, but if he's forced to to shit like frost bolt+ping or something like that, then MK already gave me double tempo: giving me a free murloc (which is usually great value with the additional 1/1), and forcing him into inefficent mana usage and/or trades. Aside from my two MKs I run 1 (one) inspire card, so it's like a joker card. I'm not saying you shouldn't accompany him with more inspire cards, like Reynad was experimenting with garrison commanders, but it is not necessary. I can't believe I'm saying this, but it served me as a better taunt than Slude Belcher.
Tuskarr Jouster is fun! I lost two jousts vs. aggro decks (both to Kezans) but only one of those mattered, and two turns later I drew another Tuskarr which won it, giving me enough health to survive, not to mention the joy on my face when I just realized I had a 5-1 and 5-2 Tuskarr on the field, which means both of them would've been dead if they were Healbots. Control Warrior usually wrecks me in Jousts, but it doesn't matter that much; the +2/2 should be more important than 8 health vs. CW. Then again, who knows, maybe Control paladins will tech in a healbot, but they might be better off with another Lay On Hands then - not sure what Control Pally will look like though, so far everyone has been testing Midrange. The fun factor of this card is easily 10/10, not only it's adorable, but the Jousts are hilariously exciting. I'm looking forward to how the decks will look like once they are fleshed out: 2 Tuskarrs, no Belcher? 2 Belchers no Tuskarr? Both? So far I'm digging Tuskarr more.
Warhorse Rider - saw Reynad try him in a few games so copied it. I never really had the dream of coin+Muster then Warhorse the next turn, but I did get off many kills on 2 health minions when my opponent left a recruit on the board, resulting in his demise. Guys, I think this expansion's theme is never let dudes survive until the next turn! It's a solid 3 drop on it's own versus aggro, but honestly, I have no idea how good this card is.
Juticar Trueheart - I knew I was going to craft her, because she sounded like a really good chill card. You know, when you just want to play with some fun decks. Welp, turns out she's preeeetttyyyy goood. I only saw pallys and warriors use her on streams so far (and only from pallys in my ranked games), but man... I guess her place in Paladin decks is self-explanatory, but I remember people saying she would be meh in Warrior, because it would take X turn to actually have a surplus of Y armors, blahblah, you are better of playing Z card. Yeah, about that... I still have PTSD from some of the games I watched. Un. Fucking. Killable. Varian might as well costed 20 mana, with Tank Up Warrior would have the time to play him eventually.
Argent Lance - thanks for the arena wins; it's super cool having a 2 drop weapon now there.
Silver Hand Regent - It was bothersome playing two of her without having a somewhat dedicated inspire deck, but one made wonders. Well, not exactly wonders, but she kept up with the theme with shitting out stuff to the board, and as I said, 5 mana 3/3+1/1+1/1 might not sound crazy good, but you can not let those dudes live, so the value of this card can not be measured by comparing mana cost with stats value. I don't know if she'll be still around one or two months later, but right now she seems like a perfect fit. She stalls against control, and serves as a great wall vs. aggro, especially eboladin with all the 1 health minions and/or divine shields.
I haven't watched any pro play Lock and Load yet, since I was obsessed with Paladins, but I had a game vs a L&L Hunter today. I won, but when he drew 4 or 5 cards in turn 4 while clearing my board... oh man, that deck will give me nightmares in the months to come, that's for sure.
Oh, and I could finally climb the ladder, because I did not meet with any Patron Warriors. I almost forgot this game can be fun, when I'm allowed to play it, instead of being punished for literally everything by a stupid deck which has the same archetype as two already nerfed decks in the past. I know they are hardly gone; this new midrange pally for example, if it can not beat it fast enough, it's just making that dumb Frothing even stronger.
Edit: Oh, and FUCK Tuskarr Totemic. Sweet mother of Jesus. I don't care if my opponent does a turn 2 Totem Golem into a turn 3 Totem Golem, just don't play that Tuskarr guy.
On August 25 2015 23:26 Inzan1ty wrote: So is Varian actually standing firm to his Hype?
I'm playing control paladin so whenever I see him its like Christmas for my Equality combo. Against none paladins he has been doing damage
Tuskarr Jouster is fun! I lost two jousts vs. aggro decks (both to Kezans) but only one of those mattered, and two turns later I drew another Tuskarr which won it, giving me enough health to survive, not to mention the joy on my face when I just realized I had a 5-1 and 5-2 Tuskarr on the field, which means both of them would've been dead if they were Healbots. Control Warrior usually wrecks me in Jousts, but it doesn't matter that much; the +2/2 should be more important than 8 health vs. CW. Then again, who knows, maybe Control paladins will tech in a healbot, but they might be better off with another Lay On Hands then - not sure what Control Pally will look like though, so far everyone has been testing Midrange. The fun factor of this card is easily 10/10, not only it's adorable, but the Jousts are hilariously exciting. I'm looking forward to how the decks will look like once they are fleshed out: 2 Tuskarrs, no Belcher? 2 Belchers no Tuskarr? Both? So far I'm digging Tuskarr more.
At this point i've lost way too many jousts to ever think about using this card again it can be too crippling in a game where consistency is key.
That said murloc knight has quickly become one of my favourite t4 plays and its interesting to see what decks look like in a month or so. Like you and Trump i've only been running 1 without other Inspire cards
Varian works right now because most decks are slow as hell and skip the BGH/Board resets. He felt pretty useless vs Paladin (equality), Handlock (Shadowflame), and all the aggro decks. He does make the Shaman and Druid matchups easier, so he's definitely not a dead card, but the deck will need some refining and a favorable meta.
As expected, Justicar is only playable in Paladin/Warrior, but she's also better than expected in Paladin. In fact, everything Paladin got is better than expected. Jouster, Murloc Knight, Eadric, Justicar... Paladin is likely top tier now, as long as people forget Patron exists.
Totem Golem has been disappointing for me so far, as it's really, really hard to curve out. Tuskarr Totemic is stupidly good and will be one of the most hated cards, also expected. Thunder Bluff Valiant is great as a one of in a meta where Shaman doesn't need Belcher/Healbot, but people are overhyping him because of how weird the decks are right now.
I can't wait for the improved hunter and ebola decks to wreck the ladder and remind people that you're not there to have fun!
On August 25 2015 23:52 Pwere wrote: Varian works right now because most decks are slow as hell and skip the BGH/Board resets. He seems pretty useless vs Paladin (equality), Handlock (Shadowflame), and all the aggro decks. He does make the Shaman and Druid matchups easier, so he's definitely not a dead card, but the deck will need some refining and a favorable meta.
As expected, Justicar is only playable in Paladin/Warrior, but she's also better than expected in Paladin. In fact, everything Paladin got is better than expected. Jouster, Murloc Knight, Eadric, Justicar... Paladin is likely top tier now, as long as people forget Patron exists.
Totem Golem has been disappointing for me so far, as it's really, really hard to curve out. Tuskarr Totemic is stupidly good and will be one of the most hated cards, also expected. Thunder Bluff Valiant is great as a one of in a meta where Shaman doesn't need Belcher/Healbot, but people are overhyping him because of how weird the decks are right now.
I can't wait for the improved hunter and ebola decks to wreck the ladder and remind people that you're not there to have fun!
I don't think too many people are overhyping Thunder Bluff Valiant most people play a few shaman games and then realize that its literally just a worse version of Shaman and go back to Paladin. I think shamans really are going to want to go towards a Malygos deck now they can actually fight for the board better with Totem Golem / Tuskar Totemic / Elemental Overload
Tuskarr Jouster is fun! I lost two jousts vs. aggro decks (both to Kezans) but only one of those mattered, and two turns later I drew another Tuskarr which won it, giving me enough health to survive, not to mention the joy on my face when I just realized I had a 5-1 and 5-2 Tuskarr on the field, which means both of them would've been dead if they were Healbots. Control Warrior usually wrecks me in Jousts, but it doesn't matter that much; the +2/2 should be more important than 8 health vs. CW. Then again, who knows, maybe Control paladins will tech in a healbot, but they might be better off with another Lay On Hands then - not sure what Control Pally will look like though, so far everyone has been testing Midrange. The fun factor of this card is easily 10/10, not only it's adorable, but the Jousts are hilariously exciting. I'm looking forward to how the decks will look like once they are fleshed out: 2 Tuskarrs, no Belcher? 2 Belchers no Tuskarr? Both? So far I'm digging Tuskarr more.
That said murloc knight has quickly become one of my favourite t4 plays and its interesting to see what decks look like in a month or so. Like you and Trump i've only been running 1 without other Inspire cards
I'm running two. I looked up reynad's and trump's decklists and merged them. Did not like how Reynad skip Tirion and LOH, but liked his more agressive approach, so I included two MKs. That being said, I almost never played it on turn, and the best thing is that I did not have to sacrifice anything for it. It wasn't like I all-in'd in my turn 6 MK+hero power, I just always had other stuff to play, even if just for cannon fodders. There were games when I was looking ahead of the next turns, how should I play and what, then he could not clear my Murlock Knight which has already been inspired once. "Welp, I guess I won then", haha.
Yeah, now that I think back, the lack of consistent heal was indeed crucial vs. some warriors, but how much better Belcher is? He dies to Death's Bite all the same, the 1-2 doesn't really mean anything, hell, it can be pretty bad vs Acolyte, while Tuskarr might heal you for 7. I know the competition should be among Tuskarr and Healbot, but why would you be screwed if you played 1 Tuskarr, 1 Belcher and Healbot? Trump ran 2 Tuskarrs and no Belchers (though used 2 Argus), while Reynad did not run Tuskarr, instead he chose 2 Belchers and no Argus.
On August 25 2015 23:26 Inzan1ty wrote: So is Varian actually standing firm to his Hype?
I'm playing control paladin so whenever I see him its like Christmas for my Equality combo. Against none paladins he has been doing damage
Tuskarr Jouster is fun! I lost two jousts vs. aggro decks (both to Kezans) but only one of those mattered, and two turns later I drew another Tuskarr which won it, giving me enough health to survive, not to mention the joy on my face when I just realized I had a 5-1 and 5-2 Tuskarr on the field, which means both of them would've been dead if they were Healbots. Control Warrior usually wrecks me in Jousts, but it doesn't matter that much; the +2/2 should be more important than 8 health vs. CW. Then again, who knows, maybe Control paladins will tech in a healbot, but they might be better off with another Lay On Hands then - not sure what Control Pally will look like though, so far everyone has been testing Midrange. The fun factor of this card is easily 10/10, not only it's adorable, but the Jousts are hilariously exciting. I'm looking forward to how the decks will look like once they are fleshed out: 2 Tuskarrs, no Belcher? 2 Belchers no Tuskarr? Both? So far I'm digging Tuskarr more.
That said murloc knight has quickly become one of my favourite t4 plays and its interesting to see what decks look like in a month or so. Like you and Trump i've only been running 1 without other Inspire cards
I'm running two. I looked up reynad's and trump's decklists and merged them. Did not like how Reynad skip Tirion and LOH, but liked his more agressive approach, so I included two MKs. That being said, I almost never played it on turn, and the best thing is that I did not have to sacrifice anything for it. It wasn't like I all-in'd in my turn 6 MK+hero power, I just always had other stuff to play, even if just for cannon fodders. There were games when I was looking ahead of the next turns, how should I play and what, then he could not clear my Murlock Knight which has already been inspired once. "Welp, I guess I won then", haha.
Yeah, now that I think back, the lack of consistent heal was indeed crucial vs. some warriors, but how much better Belcher is? He dies to Death's Bite all the same, the 1-2 doesn't really mean anything, hell, it can be pretty bad vs Acolyte, while Tuskarr might heal you for 7. I know the competition should be among Tuskarr and Healbot, but why would you be screwed if you played 1 Tuskarr, 1 Belcher and Healbot? Trump ran 2 Tuskarrs and no Belchers (though used 2 Argus), while Reynad did not run Tuskarr, instead he chose 2 Belchers and no Argus.
I ended up dropping healbot + Belcher for Tuskar + Murloc Knight. I find Argus too valuable with the sheer amount of minions the new era of Paladin has.
Just found someone running a really creative Rogue deck. It was centered around Coldlight Oracle, but used Beneath the Grounds and Gang Up to help it set up properly. There were some standard tools like Deadly Poison and Blade Flurry, and healing from Healbot, but it was overall a type of deck that I hadn't seen before. It didn't work against me, since I was playing Patron Warrior and started applying pressure too early with a Taskmastered Armorsmith for him to properly handle, but I loved the deck overall.
On August 26 2015 02:30 Acritter wrote: Just found someone running a really creative Rogue deck. It was centered around Coldlight Oracle, but used Beneath the Grounds and Gang Up to help it set up properly. There were some standard tools like Deadly Poison and Blade Flurry, and healing from Healbot, but it was overall a type of deck that I hadn't seen before. It didn't work against me, since I was playing Patron Warrior and started applying pressure too early with a Taskmastered Armorsmith for him to properly handle, but I loved the deck overall.
Sounds pretty similar to mill rogue its always been a gimmick deck used after a expansion launches. I doubt it has the tools needed to actually work
On August 26 2015 02:30 Acritter wrote: Just found someone running a really creative Rogue deck. It was centered around Coldlight Oracle, but used Beneath the Grounds and Gang Up to help it set up properly. There were some standard tools like Deadly Poison and Blade Flurry, and healing from Healbot, but it was overall a type of deck that I hadn't seen before. It didn't work against me, since I was playing Patron Warrior and started applying pressure too early with a Taskmastered Armorsmith for him to properly handle, but I loved the deck overall.
Sounds pretty similar to mill rogue its always been a gimmick deck used after a expansion launches. I doubt it has the tools needed to actually work
Beneath the Grounds contributes a hell of a lot, actually. It means the deck actually gets some board presence.
There is the huge caveat that most people are shelving rush/face decks right now, but Murloc Knight certainly looks to live up the hype that Trump / Reynad / ect gave it.
One thing I've noticed so far is that Inspire minions put a lot of pressure on your opponent to use up removal. From the brawl, I never thought Inspire worked as an on-curve (nothing dumber than T1 - Lowly Squire, T2 - Hero Power / trade Lowly Squire, T3 - have no board) and watching streams yesterday kind of confirmed it's more for midgame goodness. For what it's worth Trump made this point too - you don't make an Inspire deck anymore than you'd make a Battlecry deck, it's just something that makes a card useable or not.
Anyways, so far it seems like Inspire minions just have such a target on them that when you drop them even if they die instantly you have so many others. It's almost like the vanilla days of Cairne eating up silence/removal before you drop Ragnaros, ect. So maybe we overrated the 'need' to activate them for the card to be worth it.
I don't think too many people are overhyping Thunder Bluff Valiant most people play a few shaman games and then realize that its literally just a worse version of Shaman and go back to Paladin. I think shamans really are going to want to go towards a Malygos deck now they can actually fight for the board better with Totem Golem / Tuskar Totemic / Elemental Overload
Yes and No. Funny thing is you can go towards Malygos Shaman but that is not because of Totem Golem or that you can fight for board presence but because of the gigantic heal that Healing Wave provides and the additional board clear you get from Elemental Destruction. I saw Forsen play a nice Malygos Shaman version that I tried out myself afterwards and I have to say when you do not draw super badly it is fun and feels like playing Freeze Mage, stalling the game, drawing cards and then kill your opponnent in 1 or 2 turns.
This minions Inspire effect is just too underwhelming to make it playable anywhere.
Not everyone can be an arena player. It is a pretty solid 3/2, threatens to kill 2/3 while staying on board when played first (even Shielded Minibot if you play mage and get it out first). Yes, sometimes you have to just sacrifice it as a 3/2 in favor of putting a fresh minion on the board, and that is fine too. But when you can pump it up it often enough goes 2-for-1 while giving you board control.
A post for posterity's sake, checking in to see where things seem to be falling in reality-land.
Varian Wrynn has definitely been overrated, feels more like a 6 out of 10. Mysterious Challenger, on the other hand, is doing some disgusting things, and feels like a 16 out of 10. In other news, Dreadsteed has managed to prove itself useful in the right deck, whether said deck is something to be worried about remains to be seen.
As far as the put-down Murloc Knight, the card is proving to be anything but bad, and in the right deck even Mukla's Champion does some scary shit. Justicar Trueheart was panned pretty hard, but it's turning out to be one of the best legendaries for the late game, it really adds up to overwhelm anyone who isn't ready.
As for the whole Jousting mechanic, while a solid concept, it's less consistent than one would hope, and adds a solid chunk of variance where it may not be welcome, save for certain cases. The most usable ones so far seem to be Tuskarr Jouster and King's Elekk, but overall they're not much seen now.
All the while, the 2 most bemoaned cards of the whole set - Evil Heckler and Ice Rager - do nothing to impact the metagame, and nobody notices they exist.
As things continue to change, and the relevance of certain cards continues to shift, it may be a good idea to continue looking back at how we saw these cards then. Understanding the mistakes in these assessments may help in better understanding the potential of whatever comes next.
Dreadsteed is hands down the most overlooked card in the set. Murdock Knight had it's champions as well as its detractors (Reynad saying it could replace Shredder even and Trump liking it's value potential). Mysterious Challenger wasn't panned all around (LH rated it at 6 remember) and plenty of people were intrigued, but they worried Paladin secrets were too terrible to make this viable.
But Dreadsteed is hard to find people rally excited by the preview. And I gotta say the concept behind pony decks is very creative. That's why we respect deck builders, because they see things most people ignore.
On August 27 2015 01:56 WindWolf wrote: I got Murloc Knight in an arena. Man this is a good card. I now want to play Murloc Paladin in constructed as well
Faced two paladins in Arena with Murlock Knights. Fucking disgusting; once they dropped it, I literally kept fighting the summoned minions, eventually losing out on the board.
This minions Inspire effect is just too underwhelming to make it playable anywhere.
Not everyone can be an arena player. It is a pretty solid 3/2, threatens to kill 2/3 while staying on board when played first (even Shielded Minibot if you play mage and get it out first). Yes, sometimes you have to just sacrifice it as a 3/2 in favor of putting a fresh minion on the board, and that is fine too. But when you can pump it up it often enough goes 2-for-1 while giving you board control.
It basically has taunt in arena when played T2. If your opponent gets to play it first and you only have a 2/3, you really can't even play it, b/c you'll let him/her HP for the take-out and (if it's a Pally) leave him/her with a 3/1 and a 1/1. So, it's definitely one of the best 2-drops in Arena now.
On August 27 2015 01:56 WindWolf wrote: I got Murloc Knight in an arena. Man this is a good card. I now want to play Murloc Paladin in constructed as well
Faced two paladins in Arena with Murlock Knights. Fucking disgusting; once they dropped it, I literally kept fighting the summoned minions, eventually losing out on the board.
Yeah, it's an insane Arena card that's kill-on-sight. I saw it in once match and immediately traded into it -- I think a 3/2 and hero power instead of playing a Yeti or something; you can't let a Pally play a minimum 2/1 and 1/1 for 2 mana each turn.
Definitely right. Murloc Knight is quite possibly the best common in the set. That much value and flexibility out of a card without any real setbacks just can't be ignored.
Even in Constructed, the card can be used to basically demand that your opponent has AoE all by its lonesome. How many other single cards require a Flamestrike to extirpate?
But stupid secret paladins are everywhere.(I have % 12 winrate against it...) Paladin secrets are low value but when you get 4 of them at the same turn with a strong body on board... Game is over...
On August 24 2015 05:36 Volband wrote: It's honorable from you to try to defend this review, but it really seems helpless. And sorry to be mean as I close this out, but for those who forgot: Argent Lance - a card about which streamers/pro players unanimously agree that it sucks big time - got a rating of 2, with a possibility of a 3 from these guys. Murlock Knight, Dark Bargain are 2. Acidmaw is 1. Chillmaw is 3. Powershot is 3. Wyrmerst Agent is 4 - it's actually more revolting than Murlock Knight's 2. But do not worry, Mysterious Challenger is a 6, despite the only new Paladin secret got a rating of 3.
T2 Wyrmrest Agent into T4 (or T3 coin) Twilight Guardian is GG for anything except the most control-ly control Deck. I was playing a Mech Shaman variant and had trouble punching through all the taunts. The Dragon Priest played T6 Chillmaw; I didn't draw Earth Shock (which would have given me lethal w/ Bloodlust), so I basically lost right there.
I believe Dragon Priest is legit with the additions of Wyrmrest Agent and Twilight Guardian, and Chillmaw doesn't hurt. (Again, I say this as primarily an Arena player.)
On August 30 2015 17:59 Wuster wrote: Mysterious Challenger wasn't panned all around (LH rated it at 6 remember) and plenty of people were intrigued, but they worried Paladin secrets were too terrible to make this viable.
But Dreadsteed is hard to find people rally excited by the preview. And I gotta say the concept behind pony decks is very creative. That's why we respect deck builders, because they see things most people ignore.
I didn't necessarily mention cards that got panned, that's simply the most common case. In this very thread people were skeptical of the 6 that it got, thinking it simply wasn't good. It turns out everyone was wrong, the card single-handedly created a new deck, and that deck is very powerful from the look of it.
And for what it's worth, I was excited by the thought of using Dreadsteed. I'd built a deck for it before I'd seen any other lists pop up, and it's been immensely fun, as well as not bad. Thinking about that kind of deckbuilding is my favorite part of the game.
Also I don't mean to shit on anyone's perception of cards before they were released - everyone was wrong about something. But I certainly do mean to attack the school of thought that nothing in the new set is playable, and that nothing will change - that simply will never happen with an expansion of this size. That mindset is a closed one, if you can learn to better think for yourself you might not think the same of the next expansion, whatever it may be.
If I had a nickel for every time a Murloc Knight immediately summoned another Murloc Knight... I'd have a few nickels. Seems to happen way too often, that card is legit super stronk. In other new I have yet to see a Varian in all my laddering (Rank 6 NA) but the ladder has been so full of Paladins since the expansion that I really don't know if warriors are running him or not.
On August 31 2015 08:43 eScapegoat100 wrote: If I had a nickel for every time a Murloc Knight immediately summoned another Murloc Knight... I'd have a few nickels. Seems to happen way too often, that card is legit super stronk. In other new I have yet to see a Varian in all my laddering (Rank 6 NA) but the ladder has been so full of Paladins since the expansion that I really don't know if warriors are running him or not.
Lots of secret paladins about right now. A more controlly paladin with Equality and Eadric can handle it ok-ish in my experience.
Speaking of experience, I tend to get a lot of Siltfin Spiritwalkers, which imo is right up there with Old Murk-Eye and a 2nd Murloc Knight. The Knight is the priority target, so unless you have AoE I get to draw cards, it's been running pretty well.
On August 31 2015 01:52 Aceace wrote: Mysterious Challenger rated 6
But stupid secret paladins are everywhere.(I have % 12 winrate against it...) Paladin secrets are low value but when you get 4 of them at the same turn with a strong body on board... Game is over...
Yeah its a win condition. Secret keeper gives you a strong opening if your hand is all secrets and Challenger gives power to the 1 mana secrets late game by throwing them all on board at once. And Divine favor fills in the blanks.
Also i realized Challenger keeps you from topdecking secrets late game which really makes a secrets paladin viable. I was totally wrong thinking challengers win condition would be inferior to aggro paladin as well. You can counter burn but its hard to stop that many secrets in 1 turn.
On August 31 2015 01:52 Aceace wrote: Mysterious Challenger rated 6
But stupid secret paladins are everywhere.(I have % 12 winrate against it...) Paladin secrets are low value but when you get 4 of them at the same turn with a strong body on board... Game is over...
I haven't run into it as much but the only way I am ever able to beat it is if i can trigger almost all the secrets in one turn and clear as much of the board as possible to avoid the buff from competitive spirit, otherwise I lose. It is scary seeing 5 secrets show up in one turn and a board full of 1/1's.
Just hit legend with my own rendition of secret paladin with Quartermaster, Murloc Knight and good ol Argent Protector which was key to many victories imo. Its a very fun and strong deck concept to play more so than your typical mid range or aggro paladin builds that always play a dull predictable curve. Turns can be wild due to the various secrets, T6 Mysterious Challenger is a blowout, Secretkeeper openings can end games like Undertaker and it does well against control decks unlike aggro paladin. If you want to play paladin choosing secrets is the way to go for sure.
2 hour ago one of my friend reached legendary with secret paladin deck.
Interestingly i convinced him to start hs with the tgt launch. He bought 170 packs(80 basic 50 tgt 40 gvg) naxx and brm. He reached legendary with lots of missing cards and almost zero knowledge.(lucky bastard got 2 challenger from his packs then crafted some imported rares. Muster etc.)
On August 31 2015 19:47 Aceace wrote: 2 hour ago one of my friend reached legendary with secret paladin deck.
Interestingly i convinced him to start hs with the tgt launch. He bought 170 packs(80 basic 50 tgt 40 gvg) naxx and brm. He reached legendary with lots of missing cards and almost zero knowledge.(lucky bastard got 2 challenger from his packs then crafted some imported rares. Muster etc.)
Thats hilarious.
New expansions have historically been the easiest time to rank up in any game. SC2 / HS etc etc etc. HS legend has never been exactly hard to achieve either its just time consuming
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