EPTOn September 19 2024 09:36 Manit0u wrote:
It doesn't matter if amount of civilian casualties is low or not.
It doesn't matter if amount of civilian casualties is low or not.
I feel like it does.
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 317
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KwarK
United States42804 Posts
I feel like it does. | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3978 Posts
On September 19 2024 09:36 Manit0u wrote: It doesn't matter if amount of civilian casualties is low or not. If you're targeting select individuals and are able to hand them explosives you probably had a way to deal with them that would result in no civilian casualties. Ends do not justify the means. Is injuring/killing 10 terrorists worth the life of an innocent 8 year old girl that became collateral just because she was at the grocery store at the time? This is fucking insanity. I seriously don't know how people can applaud such actions or even approve of them (also what worries me is that it's all done with full knowledge and support from US intelligence). Yeah, totally less humane than the 8-14k rockets Hezbollah has been hurling at anything that moves in Israel since Oct 7. Come on, you're extremely biased if you think this move is a war crime compared to all the other stuff both sides have done the past year. I'd say what Israel did in Gaza was far worse than this too. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10568 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17282 Posts
Well, preferably there should be no civilian casualties. On September 19 2024 10:18 aseq wrote: Yeah, totally less humane than the 8-14k rockets Hezbollah has been hurling at anything that moves in Israel since Oct 7. Come on, you're extremely biased if you think this move is a war crime compared to all the other stuff both sides have done the past year. I'd say what Israel did in Gaza was far worse than this too. Do you really think that if someone does something horrible it's OK to do horrible things back to them? You can't claim any sort of moral high ground if you're resorting to similar methods. "Those are terrible people so it's fine to blow them up in public." - this really doesn't sound wrong to you? On September 19 2024 10:43 BlackJack wrote: It’s weird having a completely unprecedented method of attack and having to figure out if it’s a legitimate military action. It's not. Booby-trapping objects that are commonly used by civilians constitutes a war crime. "Booby-traps which are used in a way not prohibited by the current rule are still subject to the general rules on the conduct of hostilities, in particular the principle of distinction and the principle of proportionality. In addition, the rule that all feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects must also be respected." | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
Secondly, the excuse that the devices would supposedly only be used by Hezbollah members so no matter how or where they exploded it's okay because they're exploding 'legitimate military targets'... Uhh, by your own fucked up logic, vast majority of Israel citizens are 'legitimate military targets' given that every citizen of Israel under... what was it, 45 years old or something with exception of women who have children are considered reserve duty soldiers (and then the older dudes or women with kids technically could go back to serve as well if the circumstances were bad enough). Nevermind that we don't know how well targeted this shit was or what the real percent of the people affected were Hezbollah, and we'll probably never know. Bottomline is, the fact that you're fighting an army of insurgents and terrorists does not mean it's acceptable to start using terrorism of your own to fight them. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25501 Posts
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On September 19 2024 12:50 WombaT wrote: Ok but what should they do? Who are 'they'? The current government of Israel? Given that their self-proclaimed goals include continued territorial expansion in the West Bank and prevention of an independent Palestinian state, I'd say their current strategy of being absolute dipshits is pretty effective. If I were to fantasize about a 'better, more peaceful Middle East'? Eh, seems simple enough. Israel needs to dismantle the West Bank settlements, cooperate with the UN to create a proper independent Palestinian state, invest into trade and job creation in both West Bank & Gaza even knowing that some of the money created by that will inevitably fall into the hands of bad guys. That won't stop terrorism and missile attacks entirely, but over time, it will drastically reduce the number of easily recruitable radicals to serve in Hamas, Hezbollah, and the likes -- and it'll push the populations of the neighboring countries towards supporting less militant governments. It'd also legitimize Israel as a 'force of good' in the region and ostracize Iran further, making it easier for nations like Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Jordan or whatever to pressure Iran into, well, not being such radical shitbags. I reject the notion that Israel has no choice but to respond with overwhelming violence every single time something happens. It has not brought them any closer to peace for half a century, nor has it made their borders more secure. The idea that they just didn't kill enough brown guys is ridiculous, this sort of approach has not worked in any similar conflict anywhere else, either. | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2630 Posts
On September 19 2024 09:36 Manit0u wrote: It doesn't matter if amount of civilian casualties is low or not. If you're targeting select individuals and are able to hand them explosives you probably had a way to deal with them that would result in no civilian casualties. Ends do not justify the means. Is injuring/killing 10 terrorists worth the life of an innocent 8 year old girl that became collateral just because she was at the grocery store at the time? This is fucking insanity. I seriously don't know how people can applaud such actions or even approve of them (also what worries me is that it's all done with full knowledge and support from US intelligence). Let's be clear. Worst case scenario is a ground war in Lebanon which would be essentially Gaza 2.0. Compared to that Israel responding with targeted missile strikes and this kind of shit when Hezbollah shoots rockets (that killed kids at a playground recently if you forgot that) is infinitely preferable. I don't mind calling Israel terrorists. As stated before I find both sides at fault and so far up the asshole meter that making distinctions is pointless. I do have an (admittedly personal) dislike towards people who are rabidly pro-palestinian. That is I can absolutely emphasise with the Palestinian situation but not with western supporters. Which is why I tend to call you out. I know this causes unpleasant cognitive dissonance but it's the internet and you have to deal with it. As observed in real life and here the modus operandi is almost always: 1) Interpret Palestinian actions in the context of oppression and historical grievances at all times to justify them. 2) If something is completely abhorrent admit that, hand wave it and move on. 3) Interpret Palestinian goals and statement as positives at all times. Going so far as to ignore them if they don't fit the worldview. If called out see 2). 4) Interpret Israeli actions without context all times. 5) Israels goals are always colonization (and sometimes genocide), regardless of what they state or do. It a kind of crusader mindset where the cause is so pure and good that everything bad just flows of it like it's Teflon and anything you say or do is justified. Because it's in the support of something good. It's annoying online for anyone that doesn't see the conflict as black or white (I think it's a very, very dark shade of grey) but in real life it's even worse since everyone not sharing their worldview in full is automatically a bad person and then anything goes. Especially "funny" when they get traumatised by a well deserved insult they can't even understand and then send death threats for months. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6222 Posts
On September 19 2024 13:29 Salazarz wrote: Who are 'they'? The current government of Israel? Given that their self-proclaimed goals include continued territorial expansion in the West Bank and prevention of an independent Palestinian state, I'd say their current strategy of being absolute dipshits is pretty effective. If I were to fantasize about a 'better, more peaceful Middle East'? Eh, seems simple enough. Israel needs to dismantle the West Bank settlements, cooperate with the UN to create a proper independent Palestinian state, invest into trade and job creation in both West Bank & Gaza even knowing that some of the money created by that will inevitably fall into the hands of bad guys. That won't stop terrorism and missile attacks entirely, but over time, it will drastically reduce the number of easily recruitable radicals to serve in Hamas, Hezbollah, and the likes -- and it'll push the populations of the neighboring countries towards supporting less militant governments. It'd also legitimize Israel as a 'force of good' in the region and ostracize Iran further, making it easier for nations like Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Jordan or whatever to pressure Iran into, well, not being such radical shitbags. I reject the notion that Israel has no choice but to respond with overwhelming violence every single time something happens. It has not brought them any closer to peace for half a century, nor has it made their borders more secure. The idea that they just didn't kill enough brown guys is ridiculous, this sort of approach has not worked in any similar conflict anywhere else, either. The settlements are like magic. Dismantle them and the whole conflict will go away. Quite clearly they're a big obstacle to peace for the Palestinian - Israeli conflict but Hezbollah does not care. They're not going to change how they operate if the settlements are dissolved. Neither do the Arab states have any leverage on Iran. They already hate Iran and ostracize them. Iran isn't going to give up their largest source of hard power because of some pressure from states that don't like them. Israel does also not just rely overwhelming violence. There is a reasonable diplomatic proposal from the US that is accepted by Israel but not Hezbollah. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21713 Posts
You can talk about terrorism and using 'civilians' equipment as bombs but if these were really Hezbollah bought pagers to be distributed to Hezbollah fighters then that is about as targeted as your going to get short of walking up to them in the street. I would not be ok with it if they were commercial pagers bought and sold from a cornershop where everyone could get them and Israel would just be hoping to get some terrorists amidst the civilians. War is terrible and we can all wish for world peace but reality isn't going to cooperate. Israel is under attack and they are going to defend themselves and this way is a lot better then blindly lobbing missiles back into neighbourhoods or an actual invasion. As for the notion that there have to be a lot of civilians because there are so many victims, I don't see why. Hezbollah has thousands of fighters. A well targeted attack like this can certainly hit several thousand with limited civilian casualties. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12204 Posts
On September 19 2024 14:56 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: As observed in real life and here the modus operandi is almost always: 1) Interpret Palestinian actions in the context of oppression and historical grievances at all times to justify them. 2) If something is completely abhorrent admit that, hand wave it and move on. 3) Interpret Palestinian goals and statement as positives at all times. Going so far as to ignore them if they don't fit the worldview. If called out see 2). 4) Interpret Israeli actions without context all times. 5) Israels goals are always colonization (and sometimes genocide), regardless of what they state or do. I disagree that 4) happens and I disagree that 5) is an issue, 5) is correct. If anything I think the other side is doing 4). | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2630 Posts
On September 19 2024 17:50 Nebuchad wrote: I disagree that 4) happens and I disagree that 5) is an issue, 5) is correct. If anything I think the other side is doing 4). I glad that you agree on 1,2,3,5. But if you think about it the reason you don't agree on 4 is because you've internalized 5. You see the conflict through your lens with your context and so you are bound to disagree with people who have a different lens. Also, of course you are right about the "other" side is doing exactly the same thing. That's to be expected isn't it? It's very easy to make the exact same list for rabidly pro-Israel supporters with only minor changes. The hard part is to not internalize the context of either side but to instead keep them both as separate external concepts at the same time. And then try to merge these two opposing concepts into an (in)coherent and internal view on the conflict through which you examine the actions taken by both sides. Not so easy when both sides are both aggressors and victims at the same time. The advantage of being able to switch viewpoints only makes the conflict even sadder however. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17282 Posts
On September 19 2024 16:20 Gorsameth wrote: if these were really Hezbollah bought pagers to be distributed to Hezbollah fighters Well, couldn't they simply add tracking devices to those instead of explosives and eliminated them at an opportune time by agents? I really don't understand why a fascist apartheid state like Israel gets a free pass on committing atrocities. You can't fight terror with terror... | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12204 Posts
On September 19 2024 20:28 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: I glad that you agree on 1,2,3,5. But if you think about it the reason you don't agree on 4 is because you've internalized 5. You see the conflict through your lens with your context and so you are bound to disagree with people who have a different lens. Also, of course you are right about the "other" side is doing exactly the same thing. That's to be expected isn't it? It's very easy to make the exact same list for rabidly pro-Israel supporters with only minor changes. The hard part is to not internalize the context of either side but to instead keep them both as separate external concepts at the same time. And then try to merge these two opposing concepts into an (in)coherent and internal view on the conflict through which you examine the actions taken by both sides. Not so easy when both sides are both aggressors and victims at the same time. The advantage of being able to switch viewpoints only makes the conflict even sadder however. Everyone sees the conflict through their lens, that's not really something that you can avoid. But some people's lenses match the real world and some people's lenses don't. I try and get as close to the real world as I can; not everyone has that as a goal, and that's okay (unironically). While your theory is that I don't agree with you on 4) because I've internalized 5), my theory is that you haven't looked into 4) enough and because of that you don't believe that 5) is justified, but the reality is that it is. The entirety of the context for Israel's actions points to 5) being true. Imo a key way to stay coherent in one's viewpoint on this conflict is simply to avoid thinking about morality as much as possible, but that could be my bias talking as I've never really cared a whole lot about morality. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9661 Posts
On September 19 2024 16:20 Gorsameth wrote: I have been very much against Israëls actions in Gaza and the response, rightfully, was often what should they do then. And if your going to do something this is 1000x better then carpet bombing a region into dust. You can talk about terrorism and using 'civilians' equipment as bombs but if these were really Hezbollah bought pagers to be distributed to Hezbollah fighters then that is about as targeted as your going to get short of walking up to them in the street. I would not be ok with it if they were commercial pagers bought and sold from a cornershop where everyone could get them and Israel would just be hoping to get some terrorists amidst the civilians. War is terrible and we can all wish for world peace but reality isn't going to cooperate. Israel is under attack and they are going to defend themselves and this way is a lot better then blindly lobbing missiles back into neighbourhoods or an actual invasion. As for the notion that there have to be a lot of civilians because there are so many victims, I don't see why. Hezbollah has thousands of fighters. A well targeted attack like this can certainly hit several thousand with limited civilian casualties. Clearly its hard to make any solid judgements until we know whether or not the injured are mostly Hezbollah. This is absolutely preferable to starving a whole population while flattening the shit out of a whole region. Just in sheer scale it could never be as brutal doing this. In terms of scale, its way smaller than Oct 7. If Israel had only used terrorism in Gaza the world would be a much better place right now than it is. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21713 Posts
On September 19 2024 20:36 Manit0u wrote: You think they meet by the thousands in easily bombed remote desert warehouses where there is no chance of collateral?Well, couldn't they simply add tracking devices to those instead of explosives and eliminated them at an opportune time by agents? I really don't understand why a fascist apartheid state like Israel gets a free pass on committing atrocities. You can't fight terror with terror... These people have been dodging Israeli bombs for their entire life and the lives of their fathers before them. Why do they get a pass? because they are half a world away and they are less brown then the people they are killing, who are also trying to kill them. Right this minute there are a 1001 atrocities happening all around the world and I can't cope with dealing with all of them. And I sure as hell can't stop them. If you give me a choice between world peace, pager bombs (that, lets assume for the moment went to the 'right' people for the most part), and ethnic cleansing in Gaza I'll go for world peace 11 out of 10 times. But that's not a choice I get. If its between pagers bombs and Gaza then hell yes this is 1000x better. Israel and the countries around it are at war, we can endlessly talk about who is at fault and how they could end. And I wish Israel would let Palestinians have a state and the entire world invest into it to give people there hope and a reason to live so that future generations can have a future and that one day that war might end. But like any nation under attack Israel is going to defend itself and if stuff like this stops stuff like that (gaza ethnic cleansings) from happening in Lebanon then I will take it. And that doesn't mean I have to like it, but we've seen the alternative for the last year. And it looks a hell of a lot worse. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12204 Posts
On September 19 2024 20:54 Gorsameth wrote: You think they meet by the thousands in easily bombed remote desert warehouses where there is no chance of collateral? These people have been dodging Israeli bombs for their entire life and the lives of their fathers before them. Why do they get a pass? because they are half a world away and they are less brown then the people they are killing, who are also trying to kill them. Right this minute there are a 1001 atrocities happening all around the world and I can't cope with dealing with all of them. And I sure as hell can't stop them. If you give me a choice between world peace, pager bombs (that, lets assume for the moment went to the 'right' people for the most part), and ethnic cleansing in Gaza I'll go for world peace 11 out of 10 times. But that's not a choice I get. If its between pagers bombs and Gaza then hell yes this is 1000x better. Israel and the countries around it are at war, we can endlessly talk about who is at fault and how they could end. And I wish Israel would let Palestinians have a state and the entire world invest into it to give people there hope and a reason to live so that future generations can have a future and that one day that war might end. But like any nation under attack Israel is going to defend itself and if stuff like this stops stuff like that (gaza ethnic cleansings) from happening in Lebanon then I will take it. And that doesn't mean I have to like it, but we've seen the alternative for the last year. And it looks a hell of a lot worse. I agree with your general point, sure. "if stuff like this stops stuff like that (gaza ethnic cleansings) from happening in Lebanon then I will take it" => but it won't stop it, though. There is no connexion between this event and whether or not Israel will do a Gaza in Lebanon, if they don't do that it won't be because they've done this. | ||
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KwarK
United States42804 Posts
On September 19 2024 20:36 Manit0u wrote: Well, couldn't they simply add tracking devices to those instead of explosives and eliminated them at an opportune time by agents? I really don't understand why a fascist apartheid state like Israel gets a free pass on committing atrocities. You can't fight terror with terror... Is your plan to have Jason Bourne hunt them down or was it for the Air Force to drop bombs on the buildings that they’re in? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4185 Posts
In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969 Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? | ||
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KwarK
United States42804 Posts
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