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On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no?
At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now.
Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population.
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United States43681 Posts
On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population.
The Lebanese have been at war with Hezbollah for decades.
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On September 19 2024 21:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. The Lebanese have been at war with Hezbollah for decades.
You don't think Hezbollah use Lebanese fighters?
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On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population.
If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now.
If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support.
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On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support.
This is a reasonable point, but Israel don't operate with this philosophy in mind.
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On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support.
I suspect Jock was being sarcastic and playing the role of pro-Israel propagandists. It's been well established that this kind of attack does not cause a terrorist organization to shrink.
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On September 19 2024 21:31 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support. I suspect Jock was being sarcastic and playing the role of pro-Israel propagandists. It's been well established that this kind of attack does not cause a terrorist organization to shrink.
I wasn't being sarcastic per se.
I genuinely think that this was the objective for Israel.
I can't think what else it could be. Blowing up the pagers to 'cripple infrastructure' seems like a weak excuse more than an actual reason to do this. Obviously its not going to do anything to the ability of Hezbollah to fight. Why else do it?
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On September 19 2024 21:39 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support. I suspect Jock was being sarcastic and playing the role of pro-Israel propagandists. It's been well established that this kind of attack does not cause a terrorist organization to shrink. I wasn't being sarcastic per se. I genuinely think that this was the objective for Israel. I can't think what else it could be. Blowing up the pagers to 'cripple infrastructure' seems like a weak excuse more than an actual reason to do this. Obviously its not going to do anything to the ability of Hezbollah to fight. Why else do it?
Why do it? A few reasons, of which I think the most prevalent is that they work under the outdated assumption that every death of a terrorist is a good kill no matter what. They don't understand that they have to account for other factors that could cause the kill to backfire. As a side effect it also appeals to radical Israelis, which means they will support the kill no matter what and that means the current radical Netanyahu administration is highly likely to go through with poorly thought out attacks just because they sound good on paper.
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On September 19 2024 21:39 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support. I suspect Jock was being sarcastic and playing the role of pro-Israel propagandists. It's been well established that this kind of attack does not cause a terrorist organization to shrink. I wasn't being sarcastic per se. I genuinely think that this was the objective for Israel. I can't think what else it could be. Blowing up the pagers to 'cripple infrastructure' seems like a weak excuse more than an actual reason to do this. Obviously its not going to do anything to the ability of Hezbollah to fight. Why else do it?
They attacked one of Hezbollahs main communication devices. The military benefits are quite obvious. It destroys their ability to communicate effectively directly and indirectly. Directly because the pagers are destroyed and indirectly because they don't know what method they can trust. It's also a precise way to target members of Hezbollah because nobody else uses pagers anymore. Furthermore it sows doubt about other technology and weapons they've imported. What other supply chains are compromised?
The reason you propose seems much more unlikely to me. Who even uses pagers nowadays? Regular people don't use them anymore but Hezbollah does. Nasrallah thought them a safe alternative to mobile phones since you can't track them. Then how is blowing them up going to put fear into citizens if they're not the ones with the exploding devices. If Israel wants to do such a thing they have much better tools at their disposal.
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On September 20 2024 00:13 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:39 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support. I suspect Jock was being sarcastic and playing the role of pro-Israel propagandists. It's been well established that this kind of attack does not cause a terrorist organization to shrink. I wasn't being sarcastic per se. I genuinely think that this was the objective for Israel. I can't think what else it could be. Blowing up the pagers to 'cripple infrastructure' seems like a weak excuse more than an actual reason to do this. Obviously its not going to do anything to the ability of Hezbollah to fight. Why else do it? They attacked one of Hezbollahs main communication devices. The military benefits are quite obvious. It destroys their ability to communicate effectively directly and indirectly. Directly because the pagers are destroyed and indirectly because they don't know what method they can trust. It's also a precise way to target members of Hezbollah because nobody else uses pagers anymore. Furthermore it sows doubt about other technology and weapons they've imported. What other supply chains are compromised? The reason you propose seems much more unlikely to me. Who even uses pagers nowadays? Regular people don't use them anymore but Hezbollah does. Nasrallah thought them a safe alternative to mobile phones since you can't track them. Then how is blowing them up going to put fear into citizens if they're not the ones with the exploding devices. If Israel wants to do such a thing they have much better tools at their disposal.
Plenty of people who don't even live in anywhere near Lebanon are already expressing their fear of using electronic devices unrelated to this attack. This has definitely terrorized the Lebanese population and anyone arguing otherwise is just being willfully ignorant.
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United States43681 Posts
If your expectation of a war zone includes a general feeling of safety and security then I’m not sure that’s a reasonable expectation. “It’s bad because people feel unsafe” is not a specific issue with this delivery method, it’s an issue with war.
These were very small bombs (<1% fatality rate at 0 range) inserted directly into military hardware. I genuinely don’t see how this could be seen in any way as worse than artillery.
If all wars were fought like this then civilians would be a hell of a lot safer. The civilians should feel safer because of the care Israel is taking to use very low yield explosives at very specific targets that don’t include civilians.
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On September 19 2024 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 03:25 Dan HH wrote:On September 19 2024 02:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2024 02:47 Dan HH wrote:On September 19 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
Worth considering that Israel justifies putting explosives in consumer electronics by saying they were blowing up "terrorists" while Israel also identifies people like those that engaged in the pro-Palestinian actions on various campuses around the US as "terrorists".
The US government gave the head of the government calling those supporters of Palestinians "terrorists" multiple standing ovations. That same lauded government recently killed an American citizen without cause or accountability.
Mind sourcing that? I'm not asking this in an 'I don't believe you' sort of way, but I can't find it and I'm curious about the wording. No problem, here is one example: Thanks. And yeah, that's way out of line. My pleasure. I'd argue so was having the leader of that government come to the US's Congress and make essentially the same argument to thunderous applause. I'd probably use a descriptor more condemning than "out of line" though.
To add to this point, here is a US Representative asking if some voters that were questioning her if they have pagers on them.
Worth remembering that the IDF and US police have an extensive relationship
Baltimore law enforcement officials, along with hundreds of others from Florida, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Arizona, Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington state as well as the DC Capitol police have all traveled to Israel for training. Thousands of others have received training from Israeli officials here in the U.S.opens in a new tab
Many of these trips are taxpayer funded while others are privately funded. Since 2002, the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee’s Project Interchange and the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs have paid for police chiefs, assistant chiefs and captains to train in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).
These trainings put Baltimore police and other U.S. law enforcement employees in the hands of military, security and police systems that have racked up documented human rights violations for years. Amnesty International, other human rights organizations and even the U.S. Department of State have cited Israeli police for carrying out extrajudicial executions and other unlawful killings, using ill treatment and torture(even against children), suppression of freedom of expression/association including through government surveillance, and excessive use of force against peaceful protesters.
www.amnestyusa.org
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Would track with what my Twitter feed was saying, that the pagers were also used by health workers. I haven't been able to verify this though but we'll get more information.
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United States43681 Posts
To me the takeaway here is that WFH is probably not an appropriate model for soldiers. Leave your terror pager at the office.
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On September 20 2024 00:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 04:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2024 03:25 Dan HH wrote:On September 19 2024 02:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2024 02:47 Dan HH wrote:On September 19 2024 02:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
Worth considering that Israel justifies putting explosives in consumer electronics by saying they were blowing up "terrorists" while Israel also identifies people like those that engaged in the pro-Palestinian actions on various campuses around the US as "terrorists".
The US government gave the head of the government calling those supporters of Palestinians "terrorists" multiple standing ovations. That same lauded government recently killed an American citizen without cause or accountability.
Mind sourcing that? I'm not asking this in an 'I don't believe you' sort of way, but I can't find it and I'm curious about the wording. No problem, here is one example: https://twitter.com/Israel/status/1781951509070012435 Thanks. And yeah, that's way out of line. My pleasure. I'd argue so was having the leader of that government come to the US's Congress and make essentially the same argument to thunderous applause. I'd probably use a descriptor more condemning than "out of line" though. To add to this point, here is a US Representative asking if some voters that were questioning her if they have pagers on them. https://twitter.com/medeabenjamin/status/1836504963029033313Worth remembering that the IDF and US police have an extensive relationship Show nested quote +Baltimore law enforcement officials, along with hundreds of others from Florida, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, California, Arizona, Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts, North Carolina, Georgia, Washington state as well as the DC Capitol police have all traveled to Israel for training. Thousands of others have received training from Israeli officials here in the U.S.opens in a new tab
Many of these trips are taxpayer funded while others are privately funded. Since 2002, the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee’s Project Interchange and the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs have paid for police chiefs, assistant chiefs and captains to train in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).
These trainings put Baltimore police and other U.S. law enforcement employees in the hands of military, security and police systems that have racked up documented human rights violations for years. Amnesty International, other human rights organizations and even the U.S. Department of State have cited Israeli police for carrying out extrajudicial executions and other unlawful killings, using ill treatment and torture(even against children), suppression of freedom of expression/association including through government surveillance, and excessive use of force against peaceful protesters. www.amnestyusa.org
In this clip we can hear the reporter asking about an 8 and 11 year old, is he referring to the two children that were killed?
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On September 20 2024 00:23 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 00:13 RvB wrote:On September 19 2024 21:39 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support. I suspect Jock was being sarcastic and playing the role of pro-Israel propagandists. It's been well established that this kind of attack does not cause a terrorist organization to shrink. I wasn't being sarcastic per se. I genuinely think that this was the objective for Israel. I can't think what else it could be. Blowing up the pagers to 'cripple infrastructure' seems like a weak excuse more than an actual reason to do this. Obviously its not going to do anything to the ability of Hezbollah to fight. Why else do it? They attacked one of Hezbollahs main communication devices. The military benefits are quite obvious. It destroys their ability to communicate effectively directly and indirectly. Directly because the pagers are destroyed and indirectly because they don't know what method they can trust. It's also a precise way to target members of Hezbollah because nobody else uses pagers anymore. Furthermore it sows doubt about other technology and weapons they've imported. What other supply chains are compromised? The reason you propose seems much more unlikely to me. Who even uses pagers nowadays? Regular people don't use them anymore but Hezbollah does. Nasrallah thought them a safe alternative to mobile phones since you can't track them. Then how is blowing them up going to put fear into citizens if they're not the ones with the exploding devices. If Israel wants to do such a thing they have much better tools at their disposal. Plenty of people who don't even live in anywhere near Lebanon are already expressing their fear of using electronic devices unrelated to this attack. This has definitely terrorized the Lebanese population and anyone arguing otherwise is just being willfully ignorant.
That it has made some civilians in Lebanon afraid to use electronical devices does not mean that it was the objective. If your objective is to terrorize civilians you rig a device that civilians use like a mobile phone. Not walky talkies and pagers that were ordered by Hezbollah.
As to the deaths caused by the attack it seems to be mostly members of Hezbollah:
At least 38 Hezbollah members have been killed since Tuesday afternoon, the group says, the deadliest period for the group since the Israel-Hamas war began on October 7.
The Iran-backed militants did not provide details on the specific circumstances of the deaths or whether they were caused by the communication device explosions or occurred on the battlefield.
But given Lebanon’s health ministry has announced five battlefield deaths since Tuesday – unrelated to the wireless device attacks and normally indicating the death of Hezbollah fighters — that points to a total of 33 Hezbollah fighters being killed in the attacks targeting wireless devices.
There has been no official confirmation of the number of Hezbollah fighters killed in the explosions, which hit pagers and walkie-talkies.
Lebanon’s health ministry has said 37 people were killed in the attacks, and does not distinguish between civilians and combatants.
www.cnn.com
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On September 20 2024 01:46 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 00:23 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 00:13 RvB wrote:On September 19 2024 21:39 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support. I suspect Jock was being sarcastic and playing the role of pro-Israel propagandists. It's been well established that this kind of attack does not cause a terrorist organization to shrink. I wasn't being sarcastic per se. I genuinely think that this was the objective for Israel. I can't think what else it could be. Blowing up the pagers to 'cripple infrastructure' seems like a weak excuse more than an actual reason to do this. Obviously its not going to do anything to the ability of Hezbollah to fight. Why else do it? They attacked one of Hezbollahs main communication devices. The military benefits are quite obvious. It destroys their ability to communicate effectively directly and indirectly. Directly because the pagers are destroyed and indirectly because they don't know what method they can trust. It's also a precise way to target members of Hezbollah because nobody else uses pagers anymore. Furthermore it sows doubt about other technology and weapons they've imported. What other supply chains are compromised? The reason you propose seems much more unlikely to me. Who even uses pagers nowadays? Regular people don't use them anymore but Hezbollah does. Nasrallah thought them a safe alternative to mobile phones since you can't track them. Then how is blowing them up going to put fear into citizens if they're not the ones with the exploding devices. If Israel wants to do such a thing they have much better tools at their disposal. Plenty of people who don't even live in anywhere near Lebanon are already expressing their fear of using electronic devices unrelated to this attack. This has definitely terrorized the Lebanese population and anyone arguing otherwise is just being willfully ignorant. That it has made some civilians in Lebanon afraid to use electronical devices does not mean that it was the objective. If your objective is to terrorize civilians you rig a device that civilians use like a mobile phone. Not walky talkies and pagers that were ordered by Hezbollah. As to the deaths caused by the attack it seems to be mostly members of Hezbollah: Show nested quote + At least 38 Hezbollah members have been killed since Tuesday afternoon, the group says, the deadliest period for the group since the Israel-Hamas war began on October 7.
The Iran-backed militants did not provide details on the specific circumstances of the deaths or whether they were caused by the communication device explosions or occurred on the battlefield.
But given Lebanon’s health ministry has announced five battlefield deaths since Tuesday – unrelated to the wireless device attacks and normally indicating the death of Hezbollah fighters — that points to a total of 33 Hezbollah fighters being killed in the attacks targeting wireless devices.
There has been no official confirmation of the number of Hezbollah fighters killed in the explosions, which hit pagers and walkie-talkies.
Lebanon’s health ministry has said 37 people were killed in the attacks, and does not distinguish between civilians and combatants. www.cnn.com
I don't care what the objective is. Israel has stated the objective to destroy Hamas, and yet they've killed many civilians. Intent and actions don't always match. This pager attack has factually, objectively terrorized the Lebanese population. That's the point I'm making.
I also don't care if most of the fatalities are Hezbollah. An attack has to be justified, and in my book this one isn't an example of a justified attack. It did not stifle Hezbollah's military capability. Especially their leadership is said to be largely unaffected, because they apparently used older devices that weren't tampered with.
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On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support.
Is this your suggestion to Ukraine on how they should deal with Russia? Is this how you would deal with Russia if they were lobbing Rockets into Poland?
I've been reading for a while and I can't help to notice many people but you specifically have very different opinions on the two ongoing conflicts. There is more similarities then you would think between the two.
First: The war is not Israel vs Palestine, it never was. It is Israel vs Iran. Iran is just using the Palestinians as meat and happily sacrificing as many as possible to further Iran's goal of weakening, isolating and eventually destroying and killing every Israeli (including the Arab and Muslim ones)
Russia and Iran are allies and they have the same colonial goal. Iran is using the Russian play book only better because they are placing their little green men in a separate country. Hamas is like the Donbas peoples Militia, they seized power through force, they killed anyone who opposed them and claim it is because they protecting the people. Hezbollah and the Houthi's are like Wagner. They are clearly funded and controlled by Russia/Iran but they pretend they are not so they can claim it is not them. And strangely enough it works for them.
Couple other things that seem under reported. Lebanon and Yemen (and obviously Syria) all had worse standard of living than the Palestinians before Oct 7th. Why is that if Israel is the main problem? How did Palestine manage this while a huge portion of the Aid they received leaked through corruption to build the military infrastructure (these kind of tunnels are not cheap!) not to mention all the weapons and rockets.
Next look into the history of how Shia (Iran's majority) have treated Sunni (Palestinians). It is not pretty, there is certainly some enemy of my enemy is my friend. But if they beat Israel, it almost a certainty that Iran will not respect and protect the religious values of the Palestinians.
When you make this comparison and think about the acts that Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis have made they make a lot more strategic sense. No freedom fighters would act the way they are which is killing off the civilian population they claim to be protecting and destroying their entire infrastructure. The reason war crimes laws used to make sense and mostly worked was because no government who cares about their people is going to put military assets under schools and hospitals because they would rightly rather have their military targets hit than their most innocent and vulnerable. But when you realize its Iran it fits their and their allies way of operating).
Another is their use of propaganda. They do it very well and they target different groups with different messages. This is why a lot of far right and far left people who are away from the actual conflicts have the same views as each other and the views that just happen to align with Russia/Iranian interests. You are close enough to the conflict in Ukraine to smell out the BS, but you can see with people like GH who are fully down the rabbit hole they post about the Nazis' in Azov on that thread and how Oct 7th was actually an attack on military targets in Israel (super disappointing that no one pushed back on that holocaust denial level claim). + Show Spoiler +not claiming you are down the rabbit hole, just using a extreme example to show how it happens.
Clearly there are also some big differences with the big one being unlike Ukraine, or Poland, Israel is equal or more likely superior to Iran.
So the question is, if Wagner was lobbing missiles at Poland from Belarus, how would you want your military to respond? Not one volley but over and over again for years. You have children dying in playgrounds and 50,000 are internal refugees not able to return home. Also, they have made it clear that there goal is kill every single Polish citizen and wipe Poland from existence.
Are you not asking the collective West to do more of what Israel is doing? Iran is no better than Russia (in many ways worse as hard as it is to believe), they are a Dictatorship who wants to make a massive empire, likely impose their will on the whole world. I mean its not like Hezbollah was created to protect Lebanon from Israel, it is there to take over Lebanon from the Lebanese and be a vassal state for Iran, not to mention a great spot for their future empire building.
Ukraine is going to end up and probably has done some awful stuff, Israel has done a lot of awful stuff and will likely do more. Is it good or right? No. Is some of it necessary when the opponent is willing and has done way worse? Maybe, probably some of it I do not know.
What I do know is democracy is 1000x better than dictatorships even though they are incredibly flawed. And Iran, Russia and others need to be stopped. There is a price we will all pay either way.
This really comes down to Kwarks question of what should Israel do, which no one is willing to answer because of cuddlycutekitten decision tree. What you want Ukraine to do and be able to do is probably what you should want Israel to do. If it is not than one or the other position should probably change. It is also so damn messy in this part of the world that if you think you have the answer and you are convinced you are right, there is a 100% you are very wrong.
Semi related but not to double post. The Pager attack was a huge blow to Hezbollah. Not only because Hassan Nasrallah said as much, but also because we know how important communication is in war. This is the type of attack many people have been calling for and I'm happy to see that some posters here who are clearly very staunchly anti Israel have even posted about how much "better" of an attack it is then other options.
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On September 20 2024 02:43 Oldwiseman44 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support. Is this your suggestion to Ukraine on how they should deal with Russia? Is this how you would deal with Russia if they were lobbing Rockets into Poland?
Israel is Russia. Palestine is Ukraine.
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EPT
