Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 319

On September 20 2024 02:45 Nebuchad wrote:


Israel is Russia. Palestine is Ukraine.

On September 20 2024 02:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:

Nope if that was true Palestine would be Israel, likely decades ago.

On September 20 2024 02:52 Nebuchad wrote:


What does this mean

On September 20 2024 02:56 Oldwiseman44 wrote:

It means if they were like Russia they would have crushed them moved in and called it Israel now. Exactly what Russia is trying to do and did with countless other countries and people.

On September 20 2024 02:56 Oldwiseman44 wrote:
It does not concern you that Russia and Iran are allies and doing extremely similar tactics?

On September 20 2024 03:01 Nebuchad wrote:


They can't just move in and call it Israel, cause that would mean the people who live there are Israelis. They need to remove the people who are there first in order to claim the land. Russia doesn't have this problem, it wants Ukrainians to be Russians, not to be gone.



No.

On September 20 2024 03:19 Oldwiseman44 wrote:

Exactly and that is what Russia has done and will do. It is what Iran would do. It is what Israel could easily do given the power imbalance. Israel is very different some quick and obvious ones, they are a democracy, the people they are fighting against (various Arab countries depending on your take) live better within their borders than outside, all their allies are flipped.

Your last answer there along with your two low effort posts shows that you are stuck on Cuddlycutekittens decision tree. If you put in some effort and said something thoughtful id be happy to respond, otherwise have a good one.

On September 20 2024 03:25 Nebuchad wrote:


I explained why your objection to Israel being Russia in the analogy didn't work, and you answer with "exactly" as if I was saying something that is in line with your argument. That is not how this works.

On September 20 2024 03:31 Oldwiseman44 wrote:

I think you need to go back and reread. I said that if Israel was Russia, they would do exactly what Russia has done when they can easily win. And we all know Israel has not done this. Your effort is so low you won't even read the short posts.

If you can't see that Iran is the one pulling the strings for Hamas, with the obvious connections, then there is no way to go. And quite frankly my post was not for you or too you. I'm not looking to get into an internet fite. I get you love them and want to start them with anyone who does not agree with you. But I'm looking for intelligent discussions with people with varying view points.

On September 20 2024 03:34 Nebuchad wrote:


Where has Russia removed a people and replaced it with Russians?

On September 20 2024 03:37 Oldwiseman44 wrote:


Here is a easy one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

What do you suspect the Russians are doing when they bus Ukrainian children back to Russia?

On September 20 2024 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:


This does not say that the Crimean Tatars have been ethnically cleansed from Crimea. If there are children there to bus back to Russia then they're probably still here, otherwise it would be hard to bus them.

The deportation of the Crimean Tatars was the ethnic cleansing and the cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars which was carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944, supervised by Lavrentiy Beria, and ordered by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Within those three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport the Crimean Tatars, mostly women, children, and the elderly, even Communist Party members and Red Army members, to the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. Multiple scholars have recognised the deportation as a genocide.[176][177]

The deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, or Ardakhar Genocide, was the Soviet forced transfer of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on 23 February 1944, during World War II. The expulsion was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union between the 1930s and the 1950s.[166][167][168][169] The European Parliament officially recognised the deportations as genocide in 2004.[170][171]

Chechen separatists continued to fight Russian troops and conduct terror attacks.[46][page needed] In October 2002, 40–50 Chechen rebels seized a Moscow theater and took about 900 civilians hostage.[30] The crisis ended with 117 hostages and up to 50 rebels dead, mostly due to an unknown aerosol pumped into the building by Russian special forces to incapacitate the people inside.[47][48][49]

In response to these attacks, Russia tightened its grip on Chechnya and expanded its anti-terrorist operations throughout the region. Russia installed a pro-Russian Chechen regime. In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[50] The Economist was skeptical of the results, arguing that "few outside the Kremlin regard the referendum as fair".[51]

In September 2004, separatist rebels occupied a school in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, demanding recognition of the independence of Chechnya and a Russian withdrawal. 1,100 people (including 777 children) were taken hostage. The attack lasted three days, resulting in the deaths of over 331 people, including 186 children.[30][52][53][54] After the 2004 school siege, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced sweeping security and political reforms, sealing borders in the Caucasus region and revealing plans to give the central government more power. He also vowed to take tougher action against domestic terrorism, including preemptive strikes against Chechen separatists.[30] In 2005 and 2006, separatist leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev were killed.

Since 2007, Chechnya has been governed by Ramzan Kadyrov.[55] Kadyrov's rule has been characterized by high-level corruption, a poor human rights record, widespread use of torture, and a growing cult of personality.[56][57] Allegations of anti-gay purges in Chechnya were initially reported on 1 April 2017.

In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army.[58] The insurgency in the North Caucasus continued even after this date. The Caucasus Emirate had fully adopted the tenets of a Salafist jihadist group through its strict adherence to the Sunni Hanbali obedience to the literal interpretation of the Quran and the Sunnah.[59]

The Chechen government has been outspoken in its support for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, where a Chechen military force, the Kadyrovtsy, which is under Kadyrov's personal command, has played a leading role, notably in the Siege of Mariupol.[60] Meanwhile, a substantial number of Chechen separatists have allied themselves to the Ukrainian cause and are fighting a mutual Russian enemy in the Donbas.[61] In June 2022, the US State Department advised citizens not to travel to Chechnya, due to terrorism, kidnapping, and risk of civil unrest.[62]

On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:

My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides



Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:


1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba.

Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there.

On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:

I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran.

I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this.

Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great.

But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of.

On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:


Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is.

So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue.

On September 20 2024 04:35 Oldwiseman44 wrote:

Why would I say there are not such situations when there were. Had you said current I would have went there, and you can see this pattern in Chechnya, Georgia, their involvement in Syria, their support of every current army/ government committing genocide in Africa and when their current actions are considered genocidal more universally their Israel? As a person who is certain Israel is committing genocide, why do you think this is the only genocide Russia is against?

Iran's proxy armies are also blatantly geocidal both in rhetoric and actions, so I'm not sure even what your point is. How would Iran be Ukraine? lets not forget for a long time Russia "wasn't fighting in Ukraine" that was the various peoples republics.

I agree that Israel is dependent on democracies and there for has to follow rules that their leader and Russia do not. Would you agree that Iran is support Russian Genocide? And would you say they are supporting Hamas and Hezbollah's genocidal intentions? If not why?

Do you agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis are proxy armies for Iran? If not why?

On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:


Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is.

So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue.

On September 20 2024 04:48 KwarK wrote:

There are over 2 million Arabs living in Israel, around as many as live in Gaza. The idea that Israel is absolutely opposed to people being both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen would be news to them. I think you might be the one who thinks they should not exist, not Israel.

Though I guess that they're not strictly speaking ruled by Israel because Israel is a democracy and they have full citizen rights so they're not really ruled by anyone.