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On April 11 2016 01:16 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2016 00:33 whuderE wrote:
Ok so for all the people who weren't around when ibp actually threw the match in question let me fill you in on a few facts.
Ibp had just returned from a month in Europe at which point they were forced to play a match online in cevo that had no implications on their standings (they would finish first in the league regardless). The match was on season a map that was not played in Europe at all and Ibp hadn't played for at least 3 months as they were prepping for international lans.
Furthermore, they were playing netcode guides a team that the ingame leader of ibp (dazed) was a co owner of. Netcode needed a win in order to make playoffs. Funny that no one hates on cevo at all for this even though they allowed this conflict of interest in the first place.
Now tell me your sorry for the people who bet on ibp at 6-1 odds considering all those factors, they deserved to lose their money anyways. Not saying I condone match fixing but it drives me crazy seeing all the people parroting "match fixers shouldn't get a second chance" without knowing any of the context. Doesn't this happen in F1? I'm pretty sure I've seen some guys let his mate pass in front of him because he had a better placement in the championship. Indeed it's a pretty big mistake from CEVO in the first place.
It was allowed when Schumacher/Ferrari did it and it was again allowed the last years till 2016 with the new rules considering the team radio. And in F1 they are actually teammates, IBP against NCG havent been team mades, just 2 orgs with some connections.
Matchfixing stays matchfixing and Liquid shouldnt go that way. I saw Liquid always as the anti C9, now they become C9 each day a bit more.
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On April 11 2016 01:57 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2016 00:10 Lappen.464 wrote:
First a cheater in CS:GO now here... Liquid lost ist Soul.
They got cursed.
EG Overwatch team please.
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On April 11 2016 00:10 Lappen.464 wrote:
First a cheater in CS:GO now here... Liquid lost ist Soul.
Well I support their work, does it mean that I also lost my soul?
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sad to see liquid tarnish its own name 
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On April 11 2016 00:10 Lappen.464 wrote:
First a cheater in CS:GO now here... Liquid lost ist Soul.
AZK didn't cheat. If you want to point out cheaters, then look at S1mple who had a 1.6 wire ban but now plays for Liquid as well
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On April 10 2016 07:26 Aceace wrote:Wait a second.. azk in TL roster??? Hell no. No. No cheater should allowed second chances. Period. We always considered e-sports as a sport right? ![[image loading]](https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSvq5cUzwY5nR7L080XtL7PGA2TyExKwHzmUAQwddwfyL6xgQ48kA) She is Lisa Dobriskey. She became 10th in 2012 London Olympics in 1500m womans. After race she told to press her rivals were probably cheating. After 4 years especially after technological improvements against doping and using biological identities as anti-doping system that race became one of the worst races in Olympics ![[image loading]](http://runningmagazine.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Womens-1500.jpg) See.. If those fucking cheaters didn't run that day maybe Lisa won a bronze medal! You will feel different when 9 opponents ahead of you then 3 opponents. (BTW i am a Turk and i am ashamed of these cheaters which come first and runner up. They simply dont have the olympic spirit. Olympics should care about racing, not winning. They don't deserve second chances. Just like Armstrong) Azk's matchfixing feels the same to me. I have a simple question for Nazgul? What do you feel about Lisa? What do you feel about Azk's matchfixing? Yes azk didn't cheat for win. Instead he throw on purpose. But also it doesn't mean he wont cheat again!!! He already showed his lack of ethics. Do you really belive azk is the right guy for TL? For me TL is ALWAYS the good guys of e-sports. If a damn cheater allowed to play under TL banner.... Nazgul. Please, i humbly request to reconsider your decision.
I definitely think we need to take this very seriously, and really don't mind different opinions on the topic. I also don't think my thoughts and opinions on this are absolute. There's room for differing perspective. What I can say is that we do not and will never take this lightly.
I think that if you want to look at different sports you need to compare things such as precedent, culture, and longevity of ones career. When we ran TSL and there was win-trading going on in our ladder qualifier we were the first organization to really do something about this in western SC:BW. Our punishment was between eight and twelve months because of the lack of precedent. We specifically came out and announced heavier punishment for the exact same offenses going forward, because players deserve to get educated on the ethics as well as consequences. For what its worth even the announced penalties were still all eighteen months and under. In my opinion we need to define serious and consistent penalties for unethical conduct and create a situation where players know exactly what to expect. Esports has come a long way and we still have very far to go in this regard.
Additionally you could make the argument that penalties from one sport never carry over to the next. In fact oftentimes penalties from one organization don't even carry over to the next even within the same sport. I'm not sure how much I agree with that though, and in a perfect world all of these would be working together. However again if we apply such a thing across all sports worldwide sometime, they would always start with education and precedent on this being the case.
In this case with a mixture of it being a new game, as well as the duration of the punishment, I feel strongly that it is time for another chance.
On April 10 2016 13:11 SirPinky wrote:I read your post about a new team sponsored by TL for the new Blizzard game, Overwatch. Anytime there is sponsorship within e-sports I am excited since it promotes fiscal growth within the community; however, I wonder, isn’t this premature? The game has been in the beta stages for several months. Characters are not completely balanced and/or developed, there is still a lack of understanding of the roles, and the game is still evolving. I know Team Liquid wants to make its mark early, but isn’t part of the camaraderie and exhilaration of a new game working to be the best? How can Team Liquid make its roster on a new game based off previous FPS games? That would assume all FPS games are created equal and follow the same formula. This is not the case. Gamers like to believe that they, either one person or many, can rise to the top of the ladder (or any ranking system) with hard work, skill and perseverance. In my opinion, making a team before the game is even released adds a certain futility to the hope gamers can someday be part of a well-respected team, like Team Liquid. It narrows the ability for future, better, gamers to work their way to the top echelon of gameplay. I will not be one of those great players, as my hands are too crippled from playing Broodwar/SC, in the early 2000s, in my college days. I also enjoyed the bunny hopping before it was patched. But I never saw “pro” teams created before it was even out. It kind of defeats the purpose of trying to be “the best” when you have people retained on contract before we even see the game. You can see my open letter here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/507388-open-letter-to-team-liquid-on-overwatch
Understand your reasoning and I'm not sure if it came across like that in my OP, but we aren't picking these guys up just because they were good in other games. We definitely believe in their skillset and potential specifically in Overwatch, which as you say is not at all guaranteed just from their backgrounds. There are certain things you can get from it though such as dedication, personality, and mechanics. These things play a role but are not the defining factor on who to work with.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
People make mistakes and AZK is definitely feeling the consequences of it. CS:GO is extremely popular now and so many pro players are making good money. He's been playing counter-strike for a very long time. He played source prior to global offensive when there was not a lot of money and prestige (best NA source player imo).
I don't know much about savior's match fixing but I do know that starcraft is a 1v1 game and so that he acted alone; and perhaps his matches had much more significance. With ibp's match fixing, I can see some players being peer pressured into doing it. The whole team has to agree to match fix to fix the matches properly.
Knowing that caseyfoster and dazed are co-owners of netcodeguides (and that caseyfoster was also linked/banned with match fixing), it's pretty obvious that dazed initiated the match fixing and relayed his ideas to his teammates. Some people have a really laid back demeanor, and AZK and Swag seemed to be like that. I have watched AZK's stream prior to the bans, he's really quiet and chill.
As far as the single match that ibp match fixed, it was a really insignificant one. It was an online regular season match that wouldn't matter much in the standings. It would be like a match where a coach decides to sit out their starters in a sport if they had already made playoffs when there is nothing of significance to play for.
So I'm happy for AZK to have a second chance because I believe in second chances. Who I really feel bad for is swag. Dazed, who's like 25/26 right now and like 8 years older than swag, the team leader, and the most vocal of the bunch. He's in a position of influence. After the dust settled, dazed is now one of the top streamers and hustling more than just skins; promoting gambling sites and getting lots of subs on twitch. The irony is that he's probably benefited from being caught :/
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On April 11 2016 06:23 illsick wrote:
People make mistakes and AZK is definitely feeling the consequences of it. CS:GO is extremely popular now and so many pro players are making good money. He's been playing counter-strike for a very long time. He played source prior to global offensive when there was not a lot of money and prestige (best NA source player imo).
I don't know much about savior's match fixing but I do know that starcraft is a 1v1 game and so that he acted alone; and perhaps his matches had much more significance. With ibp's match fixing, I can see some players being peer pressured into doing it. The whole team has to agree to match fix to fix the matches properly.
Knowing that caseyfoster and dazed are co-owners of netcodeguides (and that caseyfoster was also linked/banned with match fixing), it's pretty obvious that dazed initiated the match fixing and relayed his ideas to his teammates. Some people have a really laid back demeanor, and AZK and Swag seemed to be like that. I have watched AZK's stream prior to the bans, he's really quiet and chill.
As far as the single match that ibp match fixed, it was a really insignificant one. It was an online regular season match that wouldn't matter much in the standings. It would be like a match where a coach decides to sit out their starters in a sport if they had already made playoffs when there is nothing of significance to play for.
So I'm happy for AZK to have a second chance because I believe in second chances. Who I really feel bad for is swag. Dazed, who's like 25/26 right now and like 8 years older than swag, the team leader, and the most vocal of the bunch. He's in a position of influence. After the dust settled, dazed is now one of the top streamers and hustling more than just skins; promoting gambling sites and getting lots of subs on twitch. The irony is that he's probably benefited from being caught :/
You need to read about Savior's match-fixing. He did more than matchfix his own games.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2016 00:10 Lappen.464 wrote:
First a cheater in CS:GO now here... Liquid lost ist Soul.
AZK didn't cheat. If you want to point out cheaters, then look at S1mple who had a 1.6 wire ban but now plays for Liquid as well
He was cheating... throwing a game is cheating. And with my post i also pointed on Simple
swissman777
Profile PM Joined September 2014
502 Posts
3 hours ago
#123
On April 11 2016 00:10 Lappen.464 wrote:
First a cheater in CS:GO now here... Liquid lost ist Soul.
Well I support their work, does it mean that I also lost my Soul?
I simply mean, that I liked the Team especially for one reason: They were the good guys. And in SC2 they chose their Players very carefully. A bad mannered Player did not have a chance to get on tl's roster. And now they do the exact opposite. The second cheater in a row... I mean a cheater... not even EG would hire that.
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Only problem I have with this news is that swag didnt make the team too 
I am not at all comfortable with players receiving lifetime bans in a game when they were not receiving a salary, were being forced to play a meaningless match, and have absolutely no player's union to defend them and to ensure a fair process and punishment.
Most esports pros are getting screwed some way or another behind the scenes. Sure there are a bunch making tons of money on the bigger orgs but most players are treated like cattle and dropped the second they have a rough patch. These players do more than anyone to promote these games and they get the least amount of protection. Look at what has happened to korean sc2 pros this year. Valve was more concerned about punishing these players than protecting the thousands upon thousands of children who are probably going to develop gambling problems later in life due to valve's tepid endorsement of skin betting sites because valve only cares about their bottom line. Swag was 17 at the time of the throw and is probably still the best player in NA. Valve has single handedly decided this kid will no longer have a career that he has spent half his life preparing for. Pro athletes dont even get lifetime bans for PED's, and here we have esport fans calling for lifetime bans over something so completely minute. Context is everything, and in this context a lifetime ban is completely inappropriate and I applaud liquid's maturity to assess the situation and make the correct decision regarding the future of a great person and talented gamer who made a single shitty mistake in his accomplished career.
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The justification that staff are using ITT to bring AZK in as a clean player is hilarious.
Best of luck to the rest of the team, though.
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On April 10 2016 07:26 Aceace wrote:Wait a second.. azk in TL roster??? Hell no. No. No cheater should allowed second chances. Period. We always considered e-sports as a sport right? + Show Spoiler +She is Lisa Dobriskey. She became 10th in 2012 London Olympics in 1500m womans. After race she told to press her rivals were probably cheating. After 4 years especially after technological improvements against doping and using biological identities as anti-doping system that race became one of the worst races in Olympics + Show Spoiler +See.. If those fucking cheaters didn't run that day maybe Lisa won a bronze medal! You will feel different when 9 opponents ahead of you then 3 opponents. (BTW i am a Turk and i am ashamed of these cheaters which come first and runner up. They simply dont have the olympic spirit. Olympics should care about racing, not winning. They don't deserve second chances. Just like Armstrong) Azk's matchfixing feels the same to me. I have a simple question for Nazgul? What do you feel about Lisa? What do you feel about Azk's matchfixing? Yes azk didn't cheat for win. Instead he throw on purpose. But also it doesn't mean he wont cheat again!!! He already showed his lack of ethics. Do you really belive azk is the right guy for TL? For me TL is ALWAYS the good guys of e-sports. If a damn cheater allowed to play under TL banner.... Nazgul. Please, i humbly request to reconsider your decision.
This is straight up gold, rofl 
-Welcome Liquid Overwatch !
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So how did this wind up as a match fixing discussion? Ohh another alleged match fixer on tl? Really naz?
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On April 11 2016 08:56 Jaaaaasper wrote:
So how did this wind up as a match fixing discussion? Ohh another alleged match fixer on tl? Really naz?
it's not alleged. He is a confirmed matchfixer
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On April 11 2016 09:08 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2016 08:56 Jaaaaasper wrote:
So how did this wind up as a match fixing discussion? Ohh another alleged match fixer on tl? Really naz? it's not alleged. He is a confirmed matchfixer
Yup geuss I'm a EG fan now. At least they don't pretend to care about anything but fans and results
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When are we going to get a Liquid Lost Vikings team?
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Cascadia1754 Posts
On April 11 2016 09:50 ItsMeDomLee wrote:
When are we going to get a Liquid Lost Vikings team?
Right after Liquid`WoW.
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On April 11 2016 09:50 ItsMeDomLee wrote:
When are we going to get a Liquid Lost Vikings team?
Right after a professional Mafia team to compete in Town of Salem web browser game. I personally am quite annoyed at Liquid just throwing its name all over the place in any and every game nowadays it seems. This just results in subpar teams all around, I dunno why Nazgul feels the need to have a team in so many games.
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On April 11 2016 09:56 Latham wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2016 09:50 ItsMeDomLee wrote:
When are we going to get a Liquid Lost Vikings team? Right after a professional Mafia team to compete in Town of Salem web browser game. I personally am quite annoyed at Liquid just throwing its name all over the place in any and every game nowadays it seems. This just results in subpar teams all around, I dunno why Nazgul feels the need to have a team in so many games.
What games are you referring too? I am a bit out of the loop I guess.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On April 11 2016 01:16 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2016 00:33 whuderE wrote:
Ok so for all the people who weren't around when ibp actually threw the match in question let me fill you in on a few facts.
Ibp had just returned from a month in Europe at which point they were forced to play a match online in cevo that had no implications on their standings (they would finish first in the league regardless). The match was on season a map that was not played in Europe at all and Ibp hadn't played for at least 3 months as they were prepping for international lans.
Furthermore, they were playing netcode guides a team that the ingame leader of ibp (dazed) was a co owner of. Netcode needed a win in order to make playoffs. Funny that no one hates on cevo at all for this even though they allowed this conflict of interest in the first place.
Now tell me your sorry for the people who bet on ibp at 6-1 odds considering all those factors, they deserved to lose their money anyways. Not saying I condone match fixing but it drives me crazy seeing all the people parroting "match fixers shouldn't get a second chance" without knowing any of the context. Doesn't this happen in F1? I'm pretty sure I've seen some guys let his mate pass in front of him because he had a better placement in the championship. Indeed it's a pretty big mistake from CEVO in the first place.
lots of sports have situations where teams "drop" games or positions to get more favorable draws in the future but that's not really the case here
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EPT
