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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On April 27 2017 04:27 SoSexy wrote:
Nyxisto, people are being stoned to death over 'funny veils'. Even the muslim countries that I considerate moderate banned it (such as Morocco, which banned it in January 2017). Why can't we just agree that the burqa is a disgrace to human freedom all over the world?
Yes, I know do you think I approve of hiding women under veils? But it's just shitty to bring it up in this discussion. The cultural problems are all real but they're not the foremost thing when you look at the situation on the global level. We'll maybe have hundreds of millions of people fleeing soon and people talk and talk over 'cultural issues'. We'll have much bigger problems than cultural issues if we take this myopic view every time.
And what set this whole discussion off was some bigoted comment about how every country in the Middle-East is basically inhospitable, which couldn't be further from the truth. If you visit Beirut or Istanbul you're not going to get chased through the streets just because you're not a Muslim. Most of the countries are poor as hell and still show a lot of solidarity. There's no religious war going on in every Middle-Eastern place.
And even as you pointed out, the burqa is basically a new invention shipping over from the SA countries who by the way have barely participated in taking in refugees although they're rich.
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On April 27 2017 04:27 SoSexy wrote:
Nyxisto, people are being stoned to death over 'funny veils'. Even the muslim countries that I considerate moderate banned it (such as Morocco, which banned it in January 2017). Why can't we just agree that the burqa is a disgrace to human freedom all over the world?
France banned it as well, it changed nothing, some women just keep wearing it [niqabs, not burqas, but doesn't change much]
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On April 27 2017 04:21 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2017 04:16 Artisreal wrote:On April 27 2017 04:12 bardtown wrote:
Who are you even talking to? shield of course On April 27 2017 04:15 SoSexy wrote:
Artisreal, PM me the next time 'hardcore neo nazis' drive a truck through a Christmas market. Whatever this has to do with women's rights and veils. I don't get the connection. if you want to discuss terrorism in the name of Islam and veiled women, I think you're on pretty thin ice. What you say... or maybe that terrorism stems from the same mindset of that part of Islam who wants women to go around in burqas. And don't even try to shake the hand of a man you don't know. The contradiction is strong: we allow a dehumanizing garment because people are afraid of appearing as 'dehumanizers' if they discuss the issue.
What I criticise is not to point out that there is a difference in wearing the burqa by choice or by force.
I condemn the latter as you do but just pulling a blanket ban does not help the person who has to wear it because then probably what bardtown said happens. You don't meet em anymore because they can't go out anymore.
Do you think these people just leave the country?
If you want to protect people, it's not gonna happen through a blanket ban on a full veil.
Just say outright you don't want immigration and I'd be fine with that. Don't mask it as concern for oppressed people.
Your comment on the christmas attacks is a rather clear sign you're in for the former.
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Norway28792 Posts
to be fair to sosexy, I saw a lot of girls wearing burqas in Italy. I haven't seen any, ever, in Norway or any other European country I've visited, but during 5 days in Milan I prolly saw like 10-15. I don't really mind banning them (it's illegal to walk around in a balaklava in Norway), but as a Norwegian, it's a complete non-issue because nobody wears them in the first place. And most of Europe is the same.
Hijabs and burkinis are a completely different thing though.
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I know, Drone. Most of the times the police won't say anything because if that reaches the press it will be a sh**storm of 'fascist, racist, police strikes once again'.
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That is because the law is unenforceable. Are they going to fine women for wearing it? Arrest them and throw them in jail for wearing it? Send them home? Do police really want to be the culture cops?
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On April 27 2017 04:31 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2017 04:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
That's funny bardtown, I hardly ever see a burqa, except those shopping in Oxford Street, or in Luton (a commuter town with an airport) for some reason. On the other hand nearly every muslim woman I have ever met (assuming all Pakistanis and Turkish and Malaysian and Egyptian and Persian and other countries of majority muslim, which is a stretch but you get the idea) are bilingual and can converse intelligently in English. Where the heck do you live that you see the opposite? I never said I see the opposite. I just said I see women in burqas fairly regularly, which I do. Obviously I see far more hijabis.
The implication in this sentence would be those who wear hijabis are refusing to integrate, but surely that is not the case?
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What is wrong with hijabis? They can be super fashionable.
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You've misinterpreted me twice in a row, now. Want to go for a third? I was offering hijabis as a moderate counterexample.
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How exactly am I misinterpreting you even once, never mind three times? You seem to misunderstand that as this is an internet forum I have the ability to recall the course of the conversation:
On April 27 2017 03:34 Shield wrote:Hating on what? That they wear burqa, refuse to integrate and open kebab shops? Yeah, I'll really miss that... not.  They don't really want to live like Europeans. They want to live like in the Middle East.
On April 27 2017 03:51 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Shield, you live in the UK, do you not? How many muslims there have you met that wears a burqa and refuse to integrate?
On April 27 2017 03:54 bardtown wrote:
You tend not to 'meet' them as such, because they're not allowed to interact with you. But I see them fairly regularly.
On April 27 2017 04:24 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
That's funny bardtown, I hardly ever see a burqa, except those shopping in Oxford Street, or in Luton (a commuter town with an airport) for some reason. On the other hand nearly every muslim woman I have ever met (assuming all Pakistanis and Turkish and Malaysian and Egyptian and Persian and other countries of majority muslim, which is a stretch but you get the idea) are bilingual and can converse intelligently in English. Where the heck do you live that you see the opposite?
On April 27 2017 04:31 bardtown wrote:
I never said I see the opposite. I just said I see women in burqas fairly regularly, which I do. Obviously I see far more hijabis.
On April 27 2017 04:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The implication in this sentence would be those who wear hijabis are refusing to integrate, but surely that is not the case?
"Oh but you misinterpreted me gosh! really! because I didn't say it directly, but said it between the lines!" is really very tiresome. It's a pretty strong implication you did there. Others are free to draw their own conclusions.
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The confusion is understandable, but I think Bardtown is clear that he has no malice towards hijabis.
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I sure hope not! What is strange is that the "moderate" example he shows is a hijab when the vast majority of muslim women in the UK have their head unadorned. Then again it simply could be because he doesn't realise that they are muslim.
Seriously though, I live in the densest populated area of England with one of the highest concentration of muslims and with loads of rich Saudis coming over to shop, and somehow it is bardtown that sees burqas regularily. It's preposterous.
In any case, the question is whether muslims are integrated in the UK, as Shield is positing that they are not, on the basis that they are either opening up a social, peoples focused business or wearing an antisocial visually striking garment that most people would instantly pick out.
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Citation needed, I think. I've never met a Muslim woman who doesn't wear at least a hijab. I seriously doubt they are a majority, let alone a 'vast majority'.
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On April 27 2017 05:24 bardtown wrote:
Citation needed, I think. I've never met a Muslim woman who doesn't wear at least a hijab. I seriously doubt they are a majority, let alone a 'vast majority'.
Don't know for UK, but in France the two thirds don't wear it.
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I might as well ask for a citation needed of yours bardtown. But like I said, you probably don't recognise them as muslim without a headcovering, as they would otherwise appear to be culturally British, hence why your own anecdotal evidence is so different from mine.
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Norway28792 Posts
Not gonna weight in on whether they're a majority or not, but if you've never seen a muslim woman without hijab, that does sound like you not realizing they were muslim. I definitely don't have a lot of muslim friends or whatnot, but of the previous 3 muslim girls I talked to, none wore hijabs.
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Christians do all carry a bible or wear a crucifix. We are told to every Sunday so people can know we are of the Lord.
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On April 27 2017 05:24 bardtown wrote:
Citation needed, I think. I've never met a Muslim woman who doesn't wear at least a hijab. I seriously doubt they are a majority, let alone a 'vast majority'.
I live with one. She thinks she's in a slight minority here in Spain, but likely about 50/50 among Muslim women. Only niqabs we see here are rich Saudi or Emirati tourists. Burqas are so rare I can't even remember when it was I saw one.
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I lived in Berlin and have regularly seen burqas and the niquab but the overwhelming majority of that form of religious sign is the hijab. Most of the two former are worn by supposedly older women though (insolently judging solely by figure and movement). Whether those with the hijab identify as muslim I have no way of identifying. Same goes for those without one. I have not felt any increase in numbers of fully veiled women up to the point where I moved about 1,5 yrs ago.
Honestly I fail to see why we're discussing that right now. Why is it important to determine whether more women wear a religious headscarf than not (excluding the completely veiled/masked form).
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@TheDwf, do you have a source?
In fairness, I do not interact with English Muslims very often any more. I went to school with a lot of them, and every one of the girls with Pakistani family now wears a hijab, without exception. Maybe there were white, black or east Asian Muslims who I didn't realise were Muslim, and I'm sure there are regional differences, but it would still surprise me if the majority wear no covering.
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EPT
