EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 821
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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 27 2017 06:02 bardtown wrote: @TheDwf, do you have a source? In fairness, I do not interact with English Muslims very often any more. I went to school with a lot of them, and every one of the girls with Pakistani family now wears a hijab, without exception. Maybe there were white, black or east Asian Muslims who I didn't realise were Muslim, and I'm sure there are regional differences, but it would still surprise me if the majority wear no covering. Some Sept 2016 study from l'Institut Montaigne (a think tank), based on a poll with a sample of 1029 persons, 874 self-defining as Muslims, rest with Muslim background (whatever that means) 57% of the women don't wear it 8% did previously but stopped 7% wear it except at work and/or during studies 5% rarely wear it 23% always do | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
http://www.institutmontaigne.org/res/files/publications/a-french-islam-is-possible-report.pdf | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
On April 27 2017 06:12 Big J wrote: Right-wingers have a right to complain about headscarfes when they demand legislation against branding. As long as I am seeing more people with fruits on their phones as girls with hijabs I don't give a damn about symbolism at all. You are saying the hijab and apple icon carry similar meaning and history? | ||
Poopi
France12886 Posts
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
However, my point still remains: these two types of clothes have a practical purpose in the region they originate from and that was their purpose long before Islam came about. Sure headscarfs are worn pretty much everywhere in the world, but its mostly done for practical purposes (working the fields, protecting your head/hair from cold/sun/etc). Im not arguing that they dont have a fashion value, but its absurd to wear them non stop or wearing them to be obligatory because, well, God said so. Its absurd if you look at it from a practical point of view. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
Im of the personal opinion that people should wear whatever they want, I really don't care about it nor I see it as a negative thing. However I would also argue that if full body/face coverings disrupt some protocols in countries where showing you face is required for some reasons (like security checks for instance) shouldn't be viewed as an attack/discrimination against those religious customs or the religion as a whole. Banning them altogether is also unnecessary, so I think Im being very unbiased/neutral with my stance on the whole thing. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
I would say I'm pretty neutral on it, too, insofar as people are free to make their own decisions. The issue arises when people feel obliged to dress/behave a certain way to avoid punishment from family or community. It's tricky, because you don't want people to be slaves to their own families, but you don't want to invade on their privacy either, so how do you tell? | ||
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pmh
1352 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 27 2017 21:49 pmh wrote: In france the burkini is banned,which is really silly. It is like they force women to show skin on the beach,taking things way to far. If people want to wear burka or scarfs that is up to them. Off course there is family and core pressure in how you dress but that goes for everyone,non muslims as well. If people feel truly suppressed they can go to the police. No it's not. | ||
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pmh
1352 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 27 2017 21:52 pmh wrote: Hmm then I am mistaken,my bad. It was in the news about a year ago but maybe it was only a plan. Some mayors had taken decrees to ban burkinis in their cities but almost all of them were smashed by the highest administrative juridiction. | ||
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
On April 27 2017 21:11 bardtown wrote: Yeah I was replying to opisska there. I don't really understand the idea that thick black clothing that covers your entire body is useful in a hot climate. If you think of traditional Saudi dress for men it is very light, white clothing. You might have a point about headscarves. I don't know the history, but it's possible they were used primarily to keep long hair out of the face when working and then became a symbol of modesty. I don't think that is the case for the niqab or the burqa though. I would say I'm pretty neutral on it, too, insofar as people are free to make their own decisions. The issue arises when people feel obliged to dress/behave a certain way to avoid punishment from family or community. It's tricky, because you don't want people to be slaves to their own families, but you don't want to invade on their privacy either, so how do you tell? I was replying to him too so its all good. Anyways, instead of me paraphrasing research done on the effectiveness of thick black clothes and why there are middle eastern/african cultures that wear them to protect from the heat, you can simply do a google search, there's quite a lot of information about it. I agree that its counter intuitive, but its true. At the end, the color of the clothes is far less important then the fact that it covers the whole body from head to toe, which is how heat is prevented from reaching the skin/body. At some point that became interwoven with Islam and the practicality of it is thrown out the window because now it has a religious context. Full body covering, especially one which involves covering the face (which is the problem imo, no one cares if people wear any type of clothes as long as the face is visible), is a sensitive topic because of security issues and Muslims need to understand this because those rules apply to non-Muslims as well, however the other side of the argument shouldn't push for complete ban on it because there's really no need for it. I can understand why it can be viewed as an attack on the religion, but Muslim also need to understand that in some cases they need to show the face and that shouldn't be viewed as an attack on them, their privacy or their religion. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2017 21:11 bardtown wrote: Yeah I was replying to opisska there. I don't really understand the idea that thick black clothing that covers your entire body is useful in a hot climate. If you think of traditional Saudi dress for men it is very light, white clothing. You might have a point about headscarves. I don't know the history, but it's possible they were used primarily to keep long hair out of the face when working and then became a symbol of modesty. I don't think that is the case for the niqab or the burqa though. I would say I'm pretty neutral on it, too, insofar as people are free to make their own decisions. The issue arises when people feel obliged to dress/behave a certain way to avoid punishment from family or community. It's tricky, because you don't want people to be slaves to their own families, but you don't want to invade on their privacy either, so how do you tell? Black clothing absorbs heat better, which also means it is better at absorbing the heat that comes from the inside, so your body heat. If there's wind and you are wearing sufficiently loose clothing (as to not just heat yourself), the wind will carry away more of your body heat than it does with white clothing, which reflects it back to your body. Also thick and black is a better protection against UV-radiation. I believe the white clothing you are thinking about is their fine clothing for inside purposes. Probably also a sign of higher wealth when you can wear expensive, white robes. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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lastpuritan
United States540 Posts
On April 25 2017 03:20 Elizar wrote: Really, after that speech of yours? Somehow I doubt your sincerity on that one. It is not pure populism. Those who voted YES clearly do not understand, that a democracy nowadays means more than "I voted, it must be democracy!" There needs to be checks and balances, which are not there now. There needs to be rights for minorities. Can you tell me which rights turkish minorities lack the most? Checks and balances are needed in developed countries where everyone agrees to live under rule of law. You can't let people constantly produce propaganda to join armed civil war against the state. I'm totally fine with Kurds speeching for indepence, but if you place a PKK recruitment table on a HDP rally and use your MP's state-provided vehicle for guerilla transport, use municipality's big cranes and budgets to dig trenches that's something judges will choose the state over your citizenship. On April 25 2017 03:20 Elizar wrote: The elections were not fair to begin with. Everyone against Erdogan and his yes was branded a terrorist, a gulenist or at least a sympathizer. They got jailed. This is not a fair referendum if one side gets state support and the other side oppression on so many levels. What about all those yes-votes that got approved, which shouldn´t be legal but the election commitee just happen to legalize just right before the referendum? Those 2,5 mio without the necessary stamp on them? It is way too fishy to call that referendum a clear win for Erdogan or a fair one to begin with. Selective quoting. Erdogan and the opposition said many times they both respect citizen's choice whether YES or NO. Of course there are crazy people from both sides that claims NO sayers are traitors or YES sayers will be thrown into the sea like 1914. You don't hear CHP mps weird speeches for YES sayers, because that doesn't serve the global media's current Turkey agenda. About the stamp crisis, believe me it's a cheesy cliche in Turkish politics to blame the other side for election frauds. I don't remember an election which we hadn't suffered these news, but somehow in a month or two, the main opposition forgets those claims and never mentions again. My father, now runs a TV channel, former journalist of head newspapers, and 1 time elected mayor in a town, faced those accusation many times. And he himself, even blamed the other nominee with frauds one time when he couldn't get elected, which was nonsense, because I was present in the most crowded voter region, and saw no fraud. The problem with the ballots is not new. Let's say you're an amateur ballotclerk from the opposition side, and your region that you serve is mostly votes for opposition, your opponents send professional ballotclerks to your side, and they start slowly giving the incoming voters non-stamped votes by checking their dresscodes, modern looking (CHP voter) or not, and when counting, they try cancel the votes. Whether they're stamped or not, you see people put their votes in bollot-boxes, they're still real people, and real votes. On April 25 2017 03:20 Elizar wrote: So no, I don´t think it is populist to call that out. It is necessary to understand why it was voted like that. I wonder why Erdogan got much approval (from those people in Germany, who actually voted). Could be something emotional. I do not know. There have been many strange justifications for this: a) Turkey is not ready for democracy, that´s why we need a strong leader b) because Turks or Germans with a turkish background get discriminated c) Erdogan is Allahs chosen or d) Erdogan only gets the same rights as the american president (wrong). It should be emotional at first, but I would pick A first, Turkey is not ready for "full democracy" for obvious reasons. We need a strong state that can eliminate all the threats against the turkish sovereignty, then we can proceed to Western model. People often misjudge Turkey by comparing her status to their well developed democracies. Ataturk tried to do the same, destroy every possible threats against the nation, be the one last dictator, and switch to democracy, he failed due to his early death, and Erdogan follows his path with non-secular measures. If he was able to reach secular nationalist votes, he would be praised by Turkish society like Ataturk. The Turks tend to love their leaders because they faced many civil wars against their minorities who rightfully-or not claim the lands they live onto. You may find thousands of stories how some rebel Kurds or Armenians, or Greek people died in the hands of their Turkish rules on the internet, but again thanks to selective narrative of western imperial past, you don't know the other side of the coin, millions of massacred turks by the rebellious people who only want their peaceful lands to rule on their own. AKP knows, every nationalist party knows, and they play for those feelings. On April 25 2017 03:20 Elizar wrote: So you wanna know why in Germany so many people don´t like the outcome? Because those yes voters actually crippled the turkish democracy while at the same time living in one, where they can voice their opinions without having to fear that the get jailed (try that in Turkey with the "wrong" opinion). At the same time there have been reports of no-voters getting bullied by yes-voters. What the heck? In Germany, we have the feeling, that the YES-voters don´t understand what democracy means. Most of them lived their whole lives in a democracy, being in 5th generation, and still have no clue. They have education in school (geez, they should even know the detailed sequence to establish a dictatorship like it happened in Germany), they have the same rights to found a party, contribute in already existing parties yadda yadda. It was never easier to oppose a totalitarian regime and yet, they did not stand up to protect it. That´s just sad. And I´m not alone with that oppinion. You need to get rid of that middle eastern prejudice mindset, %49 of Turkey, almost half of it voted for NO, and they aren't jailed, we have still 2 opposition parties well-functioning in the parliament. There're hundred thousands of anti-erdogan journos, comics, writers, singers etc. Many of us, including me, went to Gezi protests and still alive. I agree this post-coup crackdown caused some over-reacting-self protective trauma in Turkish government, and I do know many people under criminal investigation for their fabricated-non actual ties for Gulen, that's something we all need to criticize, but portraying Turkey like the opposition clearly vanished because some gulenists and pkk supporters are jailed adds Erdogan's cause, nothing else. And yes, you're not alone with your opinion, Turks in Germany are subhumans that have no clue about western values, primitives! Happy now? On April 27 2017 05:24 bardtown wrote: Citation needed, I think. I've never met a Muslim woman who doesn't wear at least a hijab. I seriously doubt they are a majority, let alone a 'vast majority'. You need a turkish-vacccaaation mate. I personally dislike veils and headscarves too. But I also dislike mosques, churches, holy books, zionists, ying-yang type things and some other millions of religious stuff. | ||
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