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On July 31 2014 20:26 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:17 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:07 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. Sorry, but i don't believe this just one bit. I have yet to find a single human being in my vicinity to be anti-semitic. There is just absolutely no justfication for that anymore. People in europe, and for sure in Germany, are atheists or as christian disguised agnostics. So, any hate from different religion is basically gone. And on top of that, you just don't recognize the jews. They are completely invisible in our country. So, you might have heard some wrong stories about the evil jew from your grand-fathers generation, but you can't relate to that at all. So, if you are not a neo-nazi, who hates basically anything, you just don't care about jews. Turks and people from the balkan make up a much larger percentage and actually are visible as foreign as well as quite vocal about their heritage, so they are usually picked if someone wants to vent about people he does not understand or needs a scapegoat. I don't know about other countries in Europe, but they will have the same phenomena. Much more culturally divers populations with higher percentage of non european immigrants and jewish communities that look just like them and not like foreigners and behave exactly like them, because they are europeans to begin with. Your argument is based upon the small sample size of the people that you individually know. The Jewisch community in Germany feels different and as they are the target of the sentiments, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. And you're argument about visibility is somewhat cynical if you as a German apply it to Jews in Germany. I know that you don't mean it that way, but please be very careful when choosing your words. Sorry but this is just bullshit! There is a very small but very vocal and aggressive community in europe that does that. Saying that antisemitism is on the rise because the neo-nazis are acting up again is just wrong. These people are dangerous indivisuals with no agenda then hatred and they are met with opposition everywhere they turn up. YOu will never be able to get rid of them completely, but holding a whole country hostage for the action of a tiny minority that is actively opposed everywhere is just wrong. There is no basis for antisemitism in germany. There is however a lot of prejuduice and bad blood against muslems. Anf if i see a spokes(wo)man talk about "hemmungslose Judenhetze" which would be translated as unrestrained hunt of jews. This is blown so out of proportion again, would be really nice if everyone would jusat caolm down.
You're wrong. The links are unfortunately in German. Anti-semitism is after analysis by the German government still deeply rooted in German society. You can familiarize yourself with the actual report. So people are afraid that the current conflict will give rise to right-wing parties to tap into. By denying that there is a problem, you're making us more vulnerable to that.
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Well.. the jewis central commity in Germany being "empört" (shocked, indignant) actually has become some kind of meme...
Muslims get so much more hate, it's not even in the same ballpark...
Personally, i know no one that gives a rats ass if someone is jewish... But well, around me are not exactly many people that would ask someone about their religion...
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France266 Posts
On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:
And I've already stated : do you see any law against Kippah in school ? Politics never cared, but when the veil started to appear, a law appeared in France. Now burka is forbidden even in public. I'm not saying I'm against that law btw because I am for it, but you cannot seriously say that there are more antisemitism, when all facts shows it's not the case, and when the state itself vote for laws against specific muslim practice (they also wanted to forbid ritual killing and eating of sheep in the "bathtub" for Laïd).
Yes I do. The 2004 law which bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in schools does apply to kippah. And as to "voting for laws against specific muslim practice" (referring to the burqa ban), I'll have you remember that it has been proven over and over again by many islamic scholars (including, I seem to recall, by the Al-Azhar university) that face-covering veils were not a muslim practice.
When these anti-muslim hate crimes in France start to feature the abduction and the torture for weeks of a teenager who was ultimately burned alive, or the spree killing of four civilians including three children aged 3, 6 and 8, or a spree killing in an ethnic museum, then you will get to say that the muslims in France have it as bad as the jews. Because a mere desecration of a place of worship or of a graveyard, as disgusting as it is, is not anywhere near what the jews can fear in western Europe (especially now, with indoctrinated young lads coming back from Syria with weapons and the skill to use them).
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On July 31 2014 20:42 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 20:26 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 31 2014 19:17 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:07 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. Sorry, but i don't believe this just one bit. I have yet to find a single human being in my vicinity to be anti-semitic. There is just absolutely no justfication for that anymore. People in europe, and for sure in Germany, are atheists or as christian disguised agnostics. So, any hate from different religion is basically gone. And on top of that, you just don't recognize the jews. They are completely invisible in our country. So, you might have heard some wrong stories about the evil jew from your grand-fathers generation, but you can't relate to that at all. So, if you are not a neo-nazi, who hates basically anything, you just don't care about jews. Turks and people from the balkan make up a much larger percentage and actually are visible as foreign as well as quite vocal about their heritage, so they are usually picked if someone wants to vent about people he does not understand or needs a scapegoat. I don't know about other countries in Europe, but they will have the same phenomena. Much more culturally divers populations with higher percentage of non european immigrants and jewish communities that look just like them and not like foreigners and behave exactly like them, because they are europeans to begin with. Your argument is based upon the small sample size of the people that you individually know. The Jewisch community in Germany feels different and as they are the target of the sentiments, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. And you're argument about visibility is somewhat cynical if you as a German apply it to Jews in Germany. I know that you don't mean it that way, but please be very careful when choosing your words. Sorry but this is just bullshit! There is a very small but very vocal and aggressive community in europe that does that. Saying that antisemitism is on the rise because the neo-nazis are acting up again is just wrong. These people are dangerous indivisuals with no agenda then hatred and they are met with opposition everywhere they turn up. YOu will never be able to get rid of them completely, but holding a whole country hostage for the action of a tiny minority that is actively opposed everywhere is just wrong. There is no basis for antisemitism in germany. There is however a lot of prejuduice and bad blood against muslems. Anf if i see a spokes(wo)man talk about "hemmungslose Judenhetze" which would be translated as unrestrained hunt of jews. This is blown so out of proportion again, would be really nice if everyone would jusat caolm down. You're wrong. The links are unfortunately in German. Anti-semitism is after analysis by the German government still deeply rooted in German society. You can familiarize yourself with the actual report. So people are afraid that the current conflict will give rise to right-wing parties to tap into. By denying that there is a problem, you're making us more vulnerable to that.
How did a discussion whether anti-semitism or anti-muslimic sentiments are more prevalent change to a discussion whether anti-semitism still exists?
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On July 31 2014 20:53 Koorb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:
And I've already stated : do you see any law against Kippah in school ? Politics never cared, but when the veil started to appear, a law appeared in France. Now burka is forbidden even in public. I'm not saying I'm against that law btw because I am for it, but you cannot seriously say that there are more antisemitism, when all facts shows it's not the case, and when the state itself vote for laws against specific muslim practice (they also wanted to forbid ritual killing and eating of sheep in the "bathtub" for Laïd). Yes I do. The 2004 law which bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in schools does apply to kippah. And as to "voting for laws against specific muslim practice" (referring to the burqa ban), I'll have you remember that it has been proven over and over again by many islamic scholars (including, I seem to recall, by the Al-Azhar university) that face-covering veils were not a muslim practice. When these anti-muslim hate crimes in France start to feature the abduction and the torture for days of a teenager who was ultimately burned alive, or the spree killing of four civilians including three children aged 3, 6 and 8, or a spree killing in an ethnic museum, then you will get to say that the muslims in France have it as bad as the jews. Because a mere desecration of a place of worship or of a graveyard, as disgusting as it is, is not anywhere near what the jews can fear in western Europe (especially now, with indoctrinated young lads coming back from Syria with weapons and the skill to use them).
Can you show me source of people coming back form syria with weapons? Thanks.
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On July 31 2014 20:42 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 20:26 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 31 2014 19:17 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:07 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. Sorry, but i don't believe this just one bit. I have yet to find a single human being in my vicinity to be anti-semitic. There is just absolutely no justfication for that anymore. People in europe, and for sure in Germany, are atheists or as christian disguised agnostics. So, any hate from different religion is basically gone. And on top of that, you just don't recognize the jews. They are completely invisible in our country. So, you might have heard some wrong stories about the evil jew from your grand-fathers generation, but you can't relate to that at all. So, if you are not a neo-nazi, who hates basically anything, you just don't care about jews. Turks and people from the balkan make up a much larger percentage and actually are visible as foreign as well as quite vocal about their heritage, so they are usually picked if someone wants to vent about people he does not understand or needs a scapegoat. I don't know about other countries in Europe, but they will have the same phenomena. Much more culturally divers populations with higher percentage of non european immigrants and jewish communities that look just like them and not like foreigners and behave exactly like them, because they are europeans to begin with. Your argument is based upon the small sample size of the people that you individually know. The Jewisch community in Germany feels different and as they are the target of the sentiments, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. And you're argument about visibility is somewhat cynical if you as a German apply it to Jews in Germany. I know that you don't mean it that way, but please be very careful when choosing your words. Sorry but this is just bullshit! There is a very small but very vocal and aggressive community in europe that does that. Saying that antisemitism is on the rise because the neo-nazis are acting up again is just wrong. These people are dangerous indivisuals with no agenda then hatred and they are met with opposition everywhere they turn up. YOu will never be able to get rid of them completely, but holding a whole country hostage for the action of a tiny minority that is actively opposed everywhere is just wrong. There is no basis for antisemitism in germany. There is however a lot of prejuduice and bad blood against muslems. Anf if i see a spokes(wo)man talk about "hemmungslose Judenhetze" which would be translated as unrestrained hunt of jews. This is blown so out of proportion again, would be really nice if everyone would jusat caolm down. You're wrong. The links are unfortunately in German. Anti-semitism is after analysis by the German government still deeply rooted in German society. You can familiarize yourself with the actual report. So people are afraid that the current conflict will give rise to right-wing parties to tap into. By denying that there is a problem, you're making us more vulnerable to that.
You're not reading your own source. The article linked talks about ~26000 "primary antisemitic people" which is less than 0.03% of the total population. So, what about those 20% that get called "somewhat antisemitic"?
Statements that counted towards said position:
"Jewish people have too much influence."
"Jewish people have a (partial) credit in their prosecution."
"Jewish people try and gain (e.g. monetary) advantages from the Holocaust today."
Also "Identifying the state of Isreal with Jewish people (!!)" and "Comparing the politics of Israel with the German politics of WW2"
...if you agree to any of those statements you're part of those 20% that get called "secondary antisemitic" or "latently antisemitic" . That's why that number is so huge compared to the measly 0.03% - it actually includes completely understandable and also valid criticism. Yes, I do consider being confused about spending money for things that are gone since 70 years as "gaining advantages" for example. Such a point of view is lightyears away from the aforementioned 0.03% that actually are antisemitic in the original meaning of the word.
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On July 31 2014 20:42 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 20:26 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 31 2014 19:17 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:07 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. Sorry, but i don't believe this just one bit. I have yet to find a single human being in my vicinity to be anti-semitic. There is just absolutely no justfication for that anymore. People in europe, and for sure in Germany, are atheists or as christian disguised agnostics. So, any hate from different religion is basically gone. And on top of that, you just don't recognize the jews. They are completely invisible in our country. So, you might have heard some wrong stories about the evil jew from your grand-fathers generation, but you can't relate to that at all. So, if you are not a neo-nazi, who hates basically anything, you just don't care about jews. Turks and people from the balkan make up a much larger percentage and actually are visible as foreign as well as quite vocal about their heritage, so they are usually picked if someone wants to vent about people he does not understand or needs a scapegoat. I don't know about other countries in Europe, but they will have the same phenomena. Much more culturally divers populations with higher percentage of non european immigrants and jewish communities that look just like them and not like foreigners and behave exactly like them, because they are europeans to begin with. Your argument is based upon the small sample size of the people that you individually know. The Jewisch community in Germany feels different and as they are the target of the sentiments, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. And you're argument about visibility is somewhat cynical if you as a German apply it to Jews in Germany. I know that you don't mean it that way, but please be very careful when choosing your words. Sorry but this is just bullshit! There is a very small but very vocal and aggressive community in europe that does that. Saying that antisemitism is on the rise because the neo-nazis are acting up again is just wrong. These people are dangerous indivisuals with no agenda then hatred and they are met with opposition everywhere they turn up. YOu will never be able to get rid of them completely, but holding a whole country hostage for the action of a tiny minority that is actively opposed everywhere is just wrong. There is no basis for antisemitism in germany. There is however a lot of prejuduice and bad blood against muslems. Anf if i see a spokes(wo)man talk about "hemmungslose Judenhetze" which would be translated as unrestrained hunt of jews. This is blown so out of proportion again, would be really nice if everyone would jusat caolm down. You're wrong. The links are unfortunately in German. Anti-semitism is after analysis by the German government still deeply rooted in German society. You can familiarize yourself with the actual report. So people are afraid that the current conflict will give rise to right-wing parties to tap into. By denying that there is a problem, you're making us more vulnerable to that.
Look, i am not arguing that people are stupid and that people have stupid prejuidices. The material you linked is interesting and i don't like the percentages of people answering the polls stupidly. I mean, 16,5% of people saying jews have too much influence in germany is mind-blowing. People have prejuidices and if you would ask the same pool about polish people, i am sure you would get the same amount of stupidity. However, as the same study shows, the actual deeds with anti-semitic backgrounds aremostly done by 26.000 active right-wing extremists. And once one person steps up in a crowd and says that he thinks Jews have responsible for the holocaust as well, 5 other stand up and tell him to shut the fuck up. While 4 people roll their eyes.
If one person says that he thinks the Turks are all uneducated and loud and whatever, a discussion emerges between 5 of those people while 5 are rolling their eyes.
There has to be a difference between calling out for "hemmungslose Judenhetze" and having 26000 people commiting crimes and 8 million people being generally stupid.
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On July 31 2014 20:53 Koorb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:
And I've already stated : do you see any law against Kippah in school ? Politics never cared, but when the veil started to appear, a law appeared in France. Now burka is forbidden even in public. I'm not saying I'm against that law btw because I am for it, but you cannot seriously say that there are more antisemitism, when all facts shows it's not the case, and when the state itself vote for laws against specific muslim practice (they also wanted to forbid ritual killing and eating of sheep in the "bathtub" for Laïd). Yes I do. The 2004 law which bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in schools does apply to kippah. And as to "voting for laws against specific muslim practice" (referring to the burqa ban), I'll have you remember that it has been proven over and over again by many islamic scholars (including, I seem to recall, by the Al-Azhar university) that face-covering veils were not a muslim practice. When these anti-muslim hate crimes in France start to feature the abduction and the torture for days of a teenager who was ultimately burned alive, or the spree killing of four civilians including three children aged 3, 6 and 8, or a spree killing in an ethnic museum, then you will get to say that the muslims in France have it as bad as the jews. Because a mere desecration of a place of worship or of a graveyard, as disgusting as it is, is not anywhere near what the jews can fear in western Europe (especially now, with indoctrinated young lads coming back from Syria with weapons and the skill to use them).
Again, not only you misunderstood my point but you act all religiously on something that should not.
I never stated the suffering of the jewish community was less than that of the muslim community, I stated that there is a broad racism towards muslim, while the racism towards jew is limited, and the statistics show that perfectly. In 2013 alone there were 27 physical agression on muslim - way more than physical agression and murder on jew in the five years before.
As terrible as the acts that you are referring to are, they are still acts coming from a minority and doesn't necessarily mean that there is a "broad" antisemitism in western europe.
Even our prime ministers have had seriously critical comments about muslim and roms (the interior enemy right ?), which makes me consider that anti muslim (or anti arab) racism is not only broad but also mainstream.
We were discussing the reason as to why people were really invested in the israelo palestinian war, and people said it was because of anti semitism. Considering that anti muslim behaviors are much more wide (not more serious in their manifestation), how is that the people are not supporting the israeli in this conflict ?
About the law, you know as well as I do that it was made in response to veil, and that it was writing that way so that it would not be too obviously anti muslim.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I can confirm that the burqa is not part of normal muslim practice, the hijab (or veil) is. Having said that, I remember hearing on the news that they were trying to block the veil in France years back. I'm not sure if they succeeded or not but I find it pretty ridiculous that it was even getting debated. One should have the freedom of covering their hair etc... if they desire to do so. For something like the burqa, I can understand that it's problematic whether for identification purposes (think driver's license photo etc...) but that doesn't apply to the hijab.
+ Show Spoiler [side news] +In Canada, there was a case about a soccer league in Quebec where they didn't want to allow a young girl (can't remember age, maybe 12 or so?) from playing because she was wearing the veil. Seems like the ban got lifted recently but I don't think there was a reason for it in the first place: http://o.canada.com/news/quebec-soccer-federation-lifts-hijab-ban
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France266 Posts
On July 31 2014 21:26 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 20:53 Koorb wrote:On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:
And I've already stated : do you see any law against Kippah in school ? Politics never cared, but when the veil started to appear, a law appeared in France. Now burka is forbidden even in public. I'm not saying I'm against that law btw because I am for it, but you cannot seriously say that there are more antisemitism, when all facts shows it's not the case, and when the state itself vote for laws against specific muslim practice (they also wanted to forbid ritual killing and eating of sheep in the "bathtub" for Laïd). Yes I do. The 2004 law which bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in schools does apply to kippah. And as to "voting for laws against specific muslim practice" (referring to the burqa ban), I'll have you remember that it has been proven over and over again by many islamic scholars (including, I seem to recall, by the Al-Azhar university) that face-covering veils were not a muslim practice. On July 31 2014 20:08 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 20:02 kwizach wrote:What? There are plenty of acts of aggression linked to religious confession every year in France. For annual numbers related to antisemitism in the country, see here. That's one tentativ of murder in a 65M people state. And a total of 105 acts. With the same statistic you have more than 650 anti muslim acts. There is one mosquee vandalized a week in France (and you have to take into account that there are far less mosquee that synagogues). http://www.islamophobie.net/rapport-annuelhttp://www.islamophobie.net/sites/default/files/CCIF-RAPPORT-2014.pdf When these anti-muslim hate crimes in France start to feature the abduction and the torture for days of a teenager who was ultimately burned alive, or the spree killing of four civilians including three children aged 3, 6 and 8, or a spree killing in an ethnic museum, then you will get to say that the muslims in France have it as bad as the jews. Because a mere desecration of a place of worship or of a graveyard, as disgusting as it is, is not anywhere near what the jews can fear in western Europe (especially now, with indoctrinated young lads coming back from Syria with weapons and the skill to use them). Can you show me source of people coming back form syria with weapons? Thanks.
Well, the source was in the very post you quoted, but anyway I'll give you 29-year-old Mehdi Nemmouche, a French citizen who fought for ISIS in Syria from 2013 onward, then came back to Europe with a Kalashnikov and went on murdering 4 people in Brussels in may of this year.
On July 31 2014 21:47 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 20:53 Koorb wrote:On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:
And I've already stated : do you see any law against Kippah in school ? Politics never cared, but when the veil started to appear, a law appeared in France. Now burka is forbidden even in public. I'm not saying I'm against that law btw because I am for it, but you cannot seriously say that there are more antisemitism, when all facts shows it's not the case, and when the state itself vote for laws against specific muslim practice (they also wanted to forbid ritual killing and eating of sheep in the "bathtub" for Laïd). Yes I do. The 2004 law which bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in schools does apply to kippah. And as to "voting for laws against specific muslim practice" (referring to the burqa ban), I'll have you remember that it has been proven over and over again by many islamic scholars (including, I seem to recall, by the Al-Azhar university) that face-covering veils were not a muslim practice. On July 31 2014 20:08 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 20:02 kwizach wrote:What? There are plenty of acts of aggression linked to religious confession every year in France. For annual numbers related to antisemitism in the country, see here. That's one tentativ of murder in a 65M people state. And a total of 105 acts. With the same statistic you have more than 650 anti muslim acts. There is one mosquee vandalized a week in France (and you have to take into account that there are far less mosquee that synagogues). http://www.islamophobie.net/rapport-annuelhttp://www.islamophobie.net/sites/default/files/CCIF-RAPPORT-2014.pdf When these anti-muslim hate crimes in France start to feature the abduction and the torture for days of a teenager who was ultimately burned alive, or the spree killing of four civilians including three children aged 3, 6 and 8, or a spree killing in an ethnic museum, then you will get to say that the muslims in France have it as bad as the jews. Because a mere desecration of a place of worship or of a graveyard, as disgusting as it is, is not anywhere near what the jews can fear in western Europe (especially now, with indoctrinated young lads coming back from Syria with weapons and the skill to use them). Again, not only you misunderstood my point but you act all religiously on something that should not. I never stated the suffering of the jewish community was less than that of the muslim community, I stated that there is a broad racism towards muslim, while the racism towards jew is limited, and the statistics show that perfectly. In 2013 alone there were 27 physical agression on muslim - way more than physical agression and murder on jew in the five years before. As terrible as the acts that you are referring to are, they are still acts coming from a minority and doesn't necessarily mean that there is a "broad" antisemitism in western europe.
So just because the sheer number of anti-muslim acts is bigger than the number of anti-jew acts, you conclude that racism toward jews is limited compared to racism toward muslims in France ? Well I beg to differ. And I say that the climate of hatred which brings a young man to shoot down three kids in a school, and then to be praised as some sort of hero by muslim teenagers in the banlieues is the mark of a much, much deeper and worrying problem than a shitload of vandalised mosques and 27 physical aggressions a year (for a population of 6 millions muslims). Especially when the empathy shown to the victims and the relatives of the victims of Merah was so underwhelming, with people going as far as to criticise the families who had chosen to have their loved ones buried in Israel rather than in France.
On July 31 2014 21:47 WhiteDog wrote:
Even our prime ministers have had seriously critical comments about muslim and roms (the interior enemy right ?), which makes me consider that anti muslim (or anti arab) racism is not only broad but also mainstream.
I do remember harsh criticism of the roma coming from at least two French governements (although none of it qualifying as flatly xenophobic), but to the best of my recollection I can't name any ministers making derogatory comments aimed specifically at the muslims. Feel free to issue me a little reminder if you will.
On July 31 2014 21:47 WhiteDog wrote:
We were discussing the reason as to why people were really invested in the israelo palestinian war, and people said it was because of anti semitism. Considering that anti muslim behaviors are much more wide (not more serious in their manifestation), how is that the people are not supporting the israeli in this conflict ?
Because the average dude is oblivious to the world that surrounds him, and utterly incapable of having an informed opinion about any matter of foreign affairs ?
Because a few small protests doesn't necessarily means that the French society as a whole is taking up the cause of anyone in this conflict, which I suspect seems quite opaque to many ?
Because it is customary for French lefties to always embrace any non-western entity fighting against a western country or against western influence regardless of its human rights record (Mao Zedong praised by the students in revolt during the 1968 mass protests, the Khmer Rouge hailed by the left, notably by the newspaper Libération, as liberators of the people of Cambodia, Ruhollah Khomeyni sheltered and courted in France before the islamic revolution in Iran...) ?
On July 31 2014 21:47 WhiteDog wrote:
About the law, you know as well as I do that it was made in response to veil, and that it was writing that way so that it would not be too obviously anti muslim.
Which one are we talking about now, the burqa ban, or the law banning conspicuous religious symbols in schools ? If it's the latter, then I wonder why you would come to think that, since the law doesn't single out any belief and as a result is a sweeping interdiction of the symbols of all religions. The veils are prohibited, but so are the kippah, oversized christian crosses, sikh's turbans...
If it's the burqa ban, then I must point out again that by every account these garments are not related to muslim practice, thus I hardly see how the law could be regarded as anti-muslim.
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TLADT24920 Posts
that was hard to watch 
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On July 31 2014 23:21 Koorb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 21:26 ImFromPortugal wrote:On July 31 2014 20:53 Koorb wrote:On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:
And I've already stated : do you see any law against Kippah in school ? Politics never cared, but when the veil started to appear, a law appeared in France. Now burka is forbidden even in public. I'm not saying I'm against that law btw because I am for it, but you cannot seriously say that there are more antisemitism, when all facts shows it's not the case, and when the state itself vote for laws against specific muslim practice (they also wanted to forbid ritual killing and eating of sheep in the "bathtub" for Laïd). Yes I do. The 2004 law which bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in schools does apply to kippah. And as to "voting for laws against specific muslim practice" (referring to the burqa ban), I'll have you remember that it has been proven over and over again by many islamic scholars (including, I seem to recall, by the Al-Azhar university) that face-covering veils were not a muslim practice. On July 31 2014 20:08 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 20:02 kwizach wrote:What? There are plenty of acts of aggression linked to religious confession every year in France. For annual numbers related to antisemitism in the country, see here. That's one tentativ of murder in a 65M people state. And a total of 105 acts. With the same statistic you have more than 650 anti muslim acts. There is one mosquee vandalized a week in France (and you have to take into account that there are far less mosquee that synagogues). http://www.islamophobie.net/rapport-annuelhttp://www.islamophobie.net/sites/default/files/CCIF-RAPPORT-2014.pdf When these anti-muslim hate crimes in France start to feature the abduction and the torture for days of a teenager who was ultimately burned alive, or the spree killing of four civilians including three children aged 3, 6 and 8, or a spree killing in an ethnic museum, then you will get to say that the muslims in France have it as bad as the jews. Because a mere desecration of a place of worship or of a graveyard, as disgusting as it is, is not anywhere near what the jews can fear in western Europe (especially now, with indoctrinated young lads coming back from Syria with weapons and the skill to use them). Can you show me source of people coming back form syria with weapons? Thanks. Well, the source was in the very post you quoted, but anyway I'll give you 29-year-old Mehdi Nemmouche, a French citizen who fought for ISIS in Syria from 2013 onward, then came back to Europe with a Kalashnikov and went on murdering 4 people in Brussels in may of this year. Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 21:47 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 20:53 Koorb wrote:On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:
And I've already stated : do you see any law against Kippah in school ? Politics never cared, but when the veil started to appear, a law appeared in France. Now burka is forbidden even in public. I'm not saying I'm against that law btw because I am for it, but you cannot seriously say that there are more antisemitism, when all facts shows it's not the case, and when the state itself vote for laws against specific muslim practice (they also wanted to forbid ritual killing and eating of sheep in the "bathtub" for Laïd). Yes I do. The 2004 law which bans wearing conspicuous religious symbols in schools does apply to kippah. And as to "voting for laws against specific muslim practice" (referring to the burqa ban), I'll have you remember that it has been proven over and over again by many islamic scholars (including, I seem to recall, by the Al-Azhar university) that face-covering veils were not a muslim practice. On July 31 2014 20:08 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 20:02 kwizach wrote:What? There are plenty of acts of aggression linked to religious confession every year in France. For annual numbers related to antisemitism in the country, see here. That's one tentativ of murder in a 65M people state. And a total of 105 acts. With the same statistic you have more than 650 anti muslim acts. There is one mosquee vandalized a week in France (and you have to take into account that there are far less mosquee that synagogues). http://www.islamophobie.net/rapport-annuelhttp://www.islamophobie.net/sites/default/files/CCIF-RAPPORT-2014.pdf When these anti-muslim hate crimes in France start to feature the abduction and the torture for days of a teenager who was ultimately burned alive, or the spree killing of four civilians including three children aged 3, 6 and 8, or a spree killing in an ethnic museum, then you will get to say that the muslims in France have it as bad as the jews. Because a mere desecration of a place of worship or of a graveyard, as disgusting as it is, is not anywhere near what the jews can fear in western Europe (especially now, with indoctrinated young lads coming back from Syria with weapons and the skill to use them). Again, not only you misunderstood my point but you act all religiously on something that should not. I never stated the suffering of the jewish community was less than that of the muslim community, I stated that there is a broad racism towards muslim, while the racism towards jew is limited, and the statistics show that perfectly. In 2013 alone there were 27 physical agression on muslim - way more than physical agression and murder on jew in the five years before. As terrible as the acts that you are referring to are, they are still acts coming from a minority and doesn't necessarily mean that there is a "broad" antisemitism in western europe. So just because the sheer number of anti-muslim acts is bigger than the number of anti-jew acts, you conclude that racism toward jews is limited compared to racism toward muslims in France ? Well I beg to differ. And I say that the climate of hatred which brings a young man to shoot down three kids in a school, and then to be praised as some sort of hero by muslim teenagers in the banlieues is the mark of a much, much deeper and worrying problem than a shitload of vandalised mosques and 27 physical aggressions a year (for a population of 6 millions muslims). Especially when the empathy shown to the victims and the relatives of the victims of Merah was so underwhelming, with people going as far as to criticise the families who had chosen to have their loved ones buried in Israel rather than in France. Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 21:47 WhiteDog wrote:
Even our prime ministers have had seriously critical comments about muslim and roms (the interior enemy right ?), which makes me consider that anti muslim (or anti arab) racism is not only broad but also mainstream. I do remember harsh criticism of the roma coming from at least two French governements (although none of it qualifying as flatly xenophobic), but to the best of my recollection I can't name any ministers making derogatory comments aimed specifically at the muslims. Feel free to issue me a little reminder if you will. Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 21:47 WhiteDog wrote:
We were discussing the reason as to why people were really invested in the israelo palestinian war, and people said it was because of anti semitism. Considering that anti muslim behaviors are much more wide (not more serious in their manifestation), how is that the people are not supporting the israeli in this conflict ? Because the average dude is oblivious to the world that surrounds him, and utterly incapable of having an informed opinion about any matter of foreign affairs ? Because a few small protests doesn't necessarily means that the French society as a whole is taking up the cause of anyone in this conflict, which I suspect seems quite opaque to many ? Because it is customary for French lefties to always embrace any non-western entity fighting against a western country or against western influence regardless of its human rights record (Mao Zedong praised by the students in revolt during the 1968 mass protests, the Khmer Rouge hailed by the left, notably by the newspaper Libération, as liberators of the people of Cambodia, Ruhollah Khomeyni sheltered and courted in France before the islamic revolution in Iran...) ? Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 21:47 WhiteDog wrote:
About the law, you know as well as I do that it was made in response to veil, and that it was writing that way so that it would not be too obviously anti muslim. Which one are we talking about now, the burqa ban, or the law banning conspicuous religious symbols in schools ? If it's the latter, then I wonder why you would come to think that, since the law doesn't single out any belief and as a result is a sweeping interdiction of the symbols of all religions. The veils are prohibited, but so are the kippah, oversized christian crosses, sikh's turbans... If it's the burqa ban, then I must point out again that by every account these garments are not related to muslim practice, thus I hardly see how the law could be regarded as anti-muslim.
So despite the fact that there are 5 time more physical agression, antisemitism is bigger in France than racism towards muslims ?
And do you consider that today there is discrimination in the work place against jew ? Is it comparable to discrimination against arabs ?
About the 2004 law it was a direct response to various exclusion of kids who had the hijab in class. Last year the government put a charter of laicity in all schools, again it was a response to public debate on islam communautarism. Last week Valls said that there was an "interior ennemy" in france, described as a radical islamist fueled with antisemitism.
About french leftist, I kinda agree in the sense that, as you say, it has nothing to do with antisemitism they're just against "western country" occupying weaker people, what we call colonialism.
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This thread has gone totally off topic. We're supposed to be discussing the Gaza conflict, not whether Muslims or Jews have it worse in terms of discrimination.
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On July 31 2014 23:45 DinoMight wrote:
This thread has gone totally off topic. We're supposed to be discussing the Gaza conflict, not whether Muslims or Jews have it worse in terms of discrimination.
But making blanket generalizing about entire groups of people is easy and saves you the time of having to deal with each person separately. Not only are stereotypes simpler, they are also more efficient. Then you don’t have to deal with all those pesky problems of nuance, context and relativism.
Stereotypes, making decisions about people so you don’t have to since the beginning of time.
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Well the simplification and generalisation came from people saying that the interest for this conflict is linked to antisemitism, which is another way of saying that all people who consider that what Israel is doing is wrong are also antisemite.
This conflict has nothing to do with antisemitism, racism or even religions.
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On July 31 2014 23:57 WhiteDog wrote:
Well the simplification and generalisation came from people saying that the interest for this conflict is linked to antisemitism, which is another way of saying that all people who consider that what Israel is doing is wrong are also antisemite.
This conflict has nothing to do with antisemitism, racism or even religions.
I've argued that case many times in this thread, but I think discussing who faces more prejudice is irrelevant.
There are plenty of Jews who disagree with Israel's policy. I don't think being critical or Israel makes you anti semitic at all and I don't think an intelligent, rational person can argue that it does.
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On July 31 2014 23:57 WhiteDog wrote:
This conflict has nothing to do with antisemitism, racism or even religions. Thats a fascinating statement. "Race and religion play no role in Israel-Palestine conflict" you say?
Not that I think that the discussion on latent prejudice in Europe against minority groups is relevant, just that these issues in Israel and Palestine are rather the crux of the issue.
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Norway28705 Posts
On July 31 2014 23:45 DinoMight wrote:
This thread has gone totally off topic. We're supposed to be discussing the Gaza conflict, not whether Muslims or Jews have it worse in terms of discrimination.
the best way to get a thread back on topic is to post something that's on topic.  Anyway though, while it has steered some off the main course and while the thread can prolly benefit from us going back, this has still been somewhat relevant; the discussion originated from a claim that Europeans are supporting Palestine because they still hate jews. This didn't make sense to me because in my impression, Europeans hate muslims significantly more, but basically, trying to understand why people support a particular side can be a useful exercise, and establishing whether European antisemitism or anti-islam are stronger forces is kinda relevant.
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On August 01 2014 00:01 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 23:57 WhiteDog wrote:
This conflict has nothing to do with antisemitism, racism or even religions. Thats a fascinating statement. "Race and religion play no role in Israel-Palestine conflict" you say? Not that I think that the discussion on latent prejudice in Europe against minority groups is relevant, just that these issues in Israel and Palestine are rather the crux of the issue.
Why ? What makes you think this is so religious ?
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EPT
