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On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue.
So the anti-muslim tendencies would've waned given enough time? Is there any source for that?
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On July 31 2014 18:11 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. So the anti-muslim tendencies would've waned given enough time? Is there any source for that?
Please don't start taking a flippant comment serious. The main point is that one hatred isn't exclusive to the other. If you want me to stick to the metaphors: flavor of the month sometimes turns out to be solid build and stays. How the relations between muslims and non-muslims in Europe will develop in the future is uncertain, but that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
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On July 31 2014 01:02 Nyxisto wrote:
No single country would sit together at the negotiation table with a group that has declared the jihad on you. The US started a war at the other end of the world to fight people not unlike the Hamas, and they had way fewer reasons than Israel to do so. What people are asking of Israel is completely unrealistic. The "you don't negotiate with terrorists" guideline is pretty much an established standard for basically any civil country. Why do people hold Israel to such different standards?
This is completely false. Not only have there been countless examples in the world of governments indeed negotiating with terrorists (whether operating on their own soil or on foreign soil), both publicly and secretly, but Israel and Hamas have negotiated together in the past, for example for ceasefires and for exchanges of prisoners.
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On July 31 2014 05:01 Noam wrote:
A country which continues to provide aid to the citizens of Gaza during this recent cycle of violence, because it is not at war with them, but with Hamas.
Israel is legally bound to provide aid to Gaza because it is the occupying power, and yet it still fails to honor many of its legal obligations with regards to the population.
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On July 31 2014 05:21 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 05:16 Adreme wrote:On July 31 2014 05:15 Nyxisto wrote:On July 31 2014 05:08 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2014 05:01 Noam wrote:On July 31 2014 04:46 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2014 04:34 Nyxisto wrote:
well the only thing that was changed by the immigration reform was that they need to speak a little bit of German now, but that is off-topic anyway. The gist of it is that Israel grants Jewish people the right of return because historically Israel has been founded as a refuge because of the extermination on the European continent. That doesn't imply that they're discriminating other people. All right, lets me clear, there is a reasonable number of people in in Israel are racist as fuck and a lot of them have gained a lot of power in the government. They suck just as much as Hamas and the only difference is they have more guns and power right now. Lets not act like Israel is the land of tolerance right now or for the last 10 years. "They suck just as much as Hamas" Who exactly? Name one political party in the knesset who's charter says Palestinians should be harmed. And let's talk about Israeli tolerance for a second. A country with a growing population of over 1.5 million arab citizens when Jews were forced out of Muslim countries. A country with the city Tel Aviv which "has frequently been referred to by publishers as one of the most gay friendly cities in the world". A country which spends billions of dollars from its budgets on developing defensive missiles which no other country in the world has or ever thought. A country which continues to provide aid to the citizens of Gaza during this recent cycle of violence, because it is not at war with them, but with Hamas. I bet you didn't know there is an IDF field hospital right outside of Gaza only for Palestinian citizens, and Hamas has fired upon it several times. Good thing that missile defense system is protecting those Palestinian citizens from Hamas' rockets. So no, you can't compare Israel to Hamas when it comes to "sucking". You can criticize Israel for its actions, but if you think it is just as bad as Hamas, you really have no place in a real conversation about this issue. I believe I said the racist and zealots in Israel are as bad as Hamas, not the country as a whole. And in my opinion those people are as guilty of escalating the crisis as Hamas. Its what they want. But no mainstream party in Israel is racist or consists of religious zealots. That the Israelis would have the right to all the land because of religious scripture is a fringe position in Israel. If its a fringe position how come more and more of the land is being taken? Every single one of the territorial changes happened through annexations after war. The only exception for that are the settlements in the West-Bank that make up roughly one percent of the physical territory.
Please stop with this completely deceitful percentage. It corresponds to the actual buildings and not the effective control the settlers exert over the territory, which has been estimated at around 40% of the West Bank by independent organizations. In fact, Israel controls most of area C and roughly 60% of the West Bank in total. It is also projected that about 8.5% of the West Bank will be on the Israeli side of the barrier, of which they've already built more than half its projected length.
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On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue.
Sorry, but i don't believe this just one bit. I have yet to find a single human being in my vicinity to be anti-semitic. There is just absolutely no justfication for that anymore. People in europe, and for sure in Germany, are atheists or as christian disguised agnostics. So, any hate from different religion is basically gone. And on top of that, you just don't recognize the jews. They are completely invisible in our country. So, you might have heard some wrong stories about the evil jew from your grand-fathers generation, but you can't relate to that at all.
So, if you are not a neo-nazi, who hates basically anything, you just don't care about jews. Turks and people from the balkan make up a much larger percentage and actually are visible as foreign as well as quite vocal about their heritage, so they are usually picked if someone wants to vent about people he does not understand or needs a scapegoat. I don't know about other countries in Europe, but they will have the same phenomena. Much more culturally divers populations with higher percentage of non european immigrants and jewish communities that look just like them and not like foreigners and behave exactly like them, because they are europeans to begin with.
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On July 31 2014 19:07 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. Sorry, but i don't believe this just one bit. I have yet to find a single human being in my vicinity to be anti-semitic. There is just absolutely no justfication for that anymore. People in europe, and for sure in Germany, are atheists or as christian disguised agnostics. So, any hate from different religion is basically gone. And on top of that, you just don't recognize the jews. They are completely invisible in our country. So, you might have heard some wrong stories about the evil jew from your grand-fathers generation, but you can't relate to that at all. So, if you are not a neo-nazi, who hates basically anything, you just don't care about jews. Turks and people from the balkan make up a much larger percentage and actually are visible as foreign as well as quite vocal about their heritage, so they are usually picked if someone wants to vent about people he does not understand or needs a scapegoat. I don't know about other countries in Europe, but they will have the same phenomena. Much more culturally divers populations with higher percentage of non european immigrants and jewish communities that look just like them and not like foreigners and behave exactly like them, because they are europeans to begin with.
Your argument is based upon the small sample size of the people that you individually know. The Jewisch community in Germany feels different and as they are the target of the sentiments, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. And you're argument about visibility is somewhat cynical if you as a German apply it to Jews in Germany. I know that you don't mean it that way, but please be very careful when choosing your words.
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On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue.
This is absolutly wrong, can you give me exemple of incidents that happen against jews that are not related to the israelo palestinian conflict ?
Jews suffer daily discrimination ? Hardship to find work ? Laws directed at their outfit or their cultural practice ? Physical agression because they wear the kippah ?
I'm not saying islamism communautarism does not create a problem - because I believe it does - but you cannot put aside reality and state that jews are the "real victims" while they don't suffer any discriminations anymore. It has even come to a point where some things that should be unacceptable are okay with jews : military officers coming in synagogue to recruit for the IDF like it is normal, kids going to do their military service in a foreign country like it is completly okay.
Foresee a muslim going to do its military service in Lybia, Egypt or Algeria and image the shitstorm it'll create (in fact it would loss its french nationality in my country !).
I've already stated countless time that the specifity of the israelo palestinian conflict is that it is at the center of occidental and oriental cultural "war" and that it is the last colonial question, much like south africa in its time.
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On July 31 2014 19:21 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. This is absolutly wrong, can you give me exemple of incidents that happen against jews that are not related to the israelo palestinian conflict ? Jews suffer daily discrimination ? Hardship to find work ? Laws directed at their outfit or their cultural practice ?
Let me stop you right there, because this is already the root of the problem. Why do you exclude incidents that relate to the israelo palestinian conflict? What does a person of Jewish religion, living and working in Germany have to do with that conflict? He might be opposed to the occupation, he might not be. He might have been to Israel or he might have not. You don't know that. So yes, if someone throws a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in Germany because of what is happening in Gaza, that counts as Anti-Semitism or Anti-Judaism.
Also there are ongoing discussions in Europe about the cultural practice of circumcision, which affects both religious Jews and Moslem's. Furthermore the same laws protecting Jews in Germany are also protecting Moslem's. Please produce examples of how Jews were specifically allowed to execute certain cultural practices, that were forbidden to other minorities. The German high court would never let that stand.
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On July 31 2014 19:30 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. This is absolutly wrong, can you give me exemple of incidents that happen against jews that are not related to the israelo palestinian conflict ? Jews suffer daily discrimination ? Hardship to find work ? Laws directed at their outfit or their cultural practice ? Let me stop you right there, because this is already the root of the problem. Why do you exclude incidents that relate to the israelo palestinian conflict? What does a person of Jewish religion, living and working in Germany have to do with that conflict? He might be opposed to the occupation, he might not be. He might have been to Israel or he might have not. You don't know that. So yes, if someone throws a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in Germany because of what is happening in Gaza, that counts as Anti-Semitism or Anti-Judaism. Also there are ongoing discussions in Europe about the cultural practice of circumcision, which affects both religious Jews and Moslem's. Furthermore the same laws protecting Jews in Germany are also protecting Moslem's. Please produce examples of how Jews were specifically allowed to execute certain cultural practices, that were forbidden to other minorities. The German high court would never let that stand.
I'm not excluding, even if you count them in there would be less antisemitic actions than anti muslim in the entire europe.
One of the main problem is that jews, and most europe, are educated in the 2nd WW narrative where jews are the victims, and when you look at pools, you see that people see jews as victims of a wide antisemitism (in europe) but that does not conccur with facts.
And I've already stated : do you see any law against Kippah in school ? Politics never cared, but when the veil started to appear, a law appeared in France. Now burka is forbidden even in public. I'm not saying I'm against that law btw because I am for it, but you cannot seriously say that there are more antisemitism, when all facts shows it's not the case, and when the state itself vote for laws against specific muslim practice (they also wanted to forbid ritual killing and eating of sheep in the "bathtub" for Laïd).
I suggest you look at the film Defamation, from an Israeli producer, about the AIPAC that struggle against antisemitism and see what people consider as antisemitism ("someone prevented me from having a day off during yom kippur").
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On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:30 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. This is absolutly wrong, can you give me exemple of incidents that happen against jews that are not related to the israelo palestinian conflict ? Jews suffer daily discrimination ? Hardship to find work ? Laws directed at their outfit or their cultural practice ? Let me stop you right there, because this is already the root of the problem. Why do you exclude incidents that relate to the israelo palestinian conflict? What does a person of Jewish religion, living and working in Germany have to do with that conflict? He might be opposed to the occupation, he might not be. He might have been to Israel or he might have not. You don't know that. So yes, if someone throws a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in Germany because of what is happening in Gaza, that counts as Anti-Semitism or Anti-Judaism. Also there are ongoing discussions in Europe about the cultural practice of circumcision, which affects both religious Jews and Moslem's. Furthermore the same laws protecting Jews in Germany are also protecting Moslem's. Please produce examples of how Jews were specifically allowed to execute certain cultural practices, that were forbidden to other minorities. The German high court would never let that stand. I'm not excluding, even if you count them in there would be less antisemitic actions than anti muslim in the entire europe. One of the main problem is that jews, and most europe, is educated in the 2nd WW narrative where jews are the victims, and when you look at pools, you see that people see jews as victims of antisemitism (in europe) but that does not conccur with facts.
First of all, I doubt there is any credible comparative study, that has tried to comparatively quantify the amount of racism/discrimination against both groups. Such research is incredible hard due to a variety of influencing factors like education, social status, etc.
Second of all it is actually irrelevant in my opinion. You have repeatedly in this thread tried to argue, that the Palestinian suffering is greater than the Jewish suffering and tried to derive some legitimacy for the Palestinian cause from that. A lot of people argue like that in the context of this conflict and it is precisely the reason why these discussion are not going anywhere. There is no metric for human suffering. It can't be just directly compared, because in my opinion you can't calculate the value of a human life. So you're just entering a circle jerk, where you start to go back in time and pile atrocity on top of atrocity, suffering on top of suffering until there is nothing left to say, except for "I kill you!". So in order to have a meaningful discussion stop trying to prove that one side is suffering more than the other.
The suffering of the Palestinian civilians is so apparent, that you don't need to compare it to anything to make your point.
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There are still plenty of antisemitic aggressions and antisemitic views in general in a lot of European countries.
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On July 31 2014 19:44 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 19:30 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. This is absolutly wrong, can you give me exemple of incidents that happen against jews that are not related to the israelo palestinian conflict ? Jews suffer daily discrimination ? Hardship to find work ? Laws directed at their outfit or their cultural practice ? Let me stop you right there, because this is already the root of the problem. Why do you exclude incidents that relate to the israelo palestinian conflict? What does a person of Jewish religion, living and working in Germany have to do with that conflict? He might be opposed to the occupation, he might not be. He might have been to Israel or he might have not. You don't know that. So yes, if someone throws a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in Germany because of what is happening in Gaza, that counts as Anti-Semitism or Anti-Judaism. Also there are ongoing discussions in Europe about the cultural practice of circumcision, which affects both religious Jews and Moslem's. Furthermore the same laws protecting Jews in Germany are also protecting Moslem's. Please produce examples of how Jews were specifically allowed to execute certain cultural practices, that were forbidden to other minorities. The German high court would never let that stand. I'm not excluding, even if you count them in there would be less antisemitic actions than anti muslim in the entire europe. One of the main problem is that jews, and most europe, is educated in the 2nd WW narrative where jews are the victims, and when you look at pools, you see that people see jews as victims of antisemitism (in europe) but that does not conccur with facts. First of all, I doubt there is any credible comparative study, that has tried to comparatively quantify the amount of racism/discrimination against both groups. Such research is incredible hard due to a variety of influencing factors like education, social status, etc. Second of all it is actually irrelevant in my opinion. You have repeatedly in this thread tried to argue, that the Palestinian suffering is greater than the Jewish suffering and tried to derive some legitimacy for the Palestinian cause from that. A lot of people argue like that in the context of this conflict and it is precisely the reason why these discussion are not going anywhere. There is no metric for human suffering. It can't be just directly compared, because in my opinion you can't calculate the value of a human life. So you're just entering a circle jerk, where you start to go back in time and pile atrocity on top of atrocity, suffering on top of suffering until there is nothing left to say, except for "I kill you!". So in order to have a meaningful discussion stop trying to prove that one side is suffering more than the other. The suffering of the Palestinian civilians is so apparent, that you don't need to compare it to anything to make your point.
This is absurd. I've never stated that the palestinian suffering is greater than the jewish suffering.
I'm just saying anti semitism today is grossly overstated for many reasons, while anti muslim is understated. The idea that there is some kind of antisemitism in europe that explain why we focus so much on the israelo palestinian conflict is just retarded and that's a fact.
Nelson Mandela is also an antisemitic when he state that "our freedom is incomplete whithout the freedom of palestinians" ? Was he refusing to see murders in Syria and elsewhere ? Or is it that he sees in the israelo palestinian conflict a situation rather close to the south african apartheid, much like Jimmy Carter ?
It is easy to make pools on antisemitism and racism btw, you count the complaint in police office, and check if any agression (physical or verbal) or action is related to religious confession. Now you can argue that antisemitism and racism is more than agressions, but that does not mean you have a number without any meaning regarding the topic.
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On July 31 2014 19:48 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:44 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 19:30 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. This is absolutly wrong, can you give me exemple of incidents that happen against jews that are not related to the israelo palestinian conflict ? Jews suffer daily discrimination ? Hardship to find work ? Laws directed at their outfit or their cultural practice ? Let me stop you right there, because this is already the root of the problem. Why do you exclude incidents that relate to the israelo palestinian conflict? What does a person of Jewish religion, living and working in Germany have to do with that conflict? He might be opposed to the occupation, he might not be. He might have been to Israel or he might have not. You don't know that. So yes, if someone throws a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in Germany because of what is happening in Gaza, that counts as Anti-Semitism or Anti-Judaism. Also there are ongoing discussions in Europe about the cultural practice of circumcision, which affects both religious Jews and Moslem's. Furthermore the same laws protecting Jews in Germany are also protecting Moslem's. Please produce examples of how Jews were specifically allowed to execute certain cultural practices, that were forbidden to other minorities. The German high court would never let that stand. I'm not excluding, even if you count them in there would be less antisemitic actions than anti muslim in the entire europe. One of the main problem is that jews, and most europe, is educated in the 2nd WW narrative where jews are the victims, and when you look at pools, you see that people see jews as victims of antisemitism (in europe) but that does not conccur with facts. First of all, I doubt there is any credible comparative study, that has tried to comparatively quantify the amount of racism/discrimination against both groups. Such research is incredible hard due to a variety of influencing factors like education, social status, etc. Second of all it is actually irrelevant in my opinion. You have repeatedly in this thread tried to argue, that the Palestinian suffering is greater than the Jewish suffering and tried to derive some legitimacy for the Palestinian cause from that. A lot of people argue like that in the context of this conflict and it is precisely the reason why these discussion are not going anywhere. There is no metric for human suffering. It can't be just directly compared, because in my opinion you can't calculate the value of a human life. So you're just entering a circle jerk, where you start to go back in time and pile atrocity on top of atrocity, suffering on top of suffering until there is nothing left to say, except for "I kill you!". So in order to have a meaningful discussion stop trying to prove that one side is suffering more than the other. The suffering of the Palestinian civilians is so apparent, that you don't need to compare it to anything to make your point. It is easy to make pools on antisemitism and racism btw, you count the complaint in police office, and check if any agression or action is related to religious confession. Now you can argue that antisemitism and racism is more than agression, but that does not mean you have a number without any meaning regarding the topic.
What? There are plenty of acts of aggression linked to religious confession every year in France. For annual numbers related to antisemitism in the country, see here.
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On July 31 2014 20:02 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:48 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 19:44 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 19:30 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. This is absolutly wrong, can you give me exemple of incidents that happen against jews that are not related to the israelo palestinian conflict ? Jews suffer daily discrimination ? Hardship to find work ? Laws directed at their outfit or their cultural practice ? Let me stop you right there, because this is already the root of the problem. Why do you exclude incidents that relate to the israelo palestinian conflict? What does a person of Jewish religion, living and working in Germany have to do with that conflict? He might be opposed to the occupation, he might not be. He might have been to Israel or he might have not. You don't know that. So yes, if someone throws a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in Germany because of what is happening in Gaza, that counts as Anti-Semitism or Anti-Judaism. Also there are ongoing discussions in Europe about the cultural practice of circumcision, which affects both religious Jews and Moslem's. Furthermore the same laws protecting Jews in Germany are also protecting Moslem's. Please produce examples of how Jews were specifically allowed to execute certain cultural practices, that were forbidden to other minorities. The German high court would never let that stand. I'm not excluding, even if you count them in there would be less antisemitic actions than anti muslim in the entire europe. One of the main problem is that jews, and most europe, is educated in the 2nd WW narrative where jews are the victims, and when you look at pools, you see that people see jews as victims of antisemitism (in europe) but that does not conccur with facts. First of all, I doubt there is any credible comparative study, that has tried to comparatively quantify the amount of racism/discrimination against both groups. Such research is incredible hard due to a variety of influencing factors like education, social status, etc. Second of all it is actually irrelevant in my opinion. You have repeatedly in this thread tried to argue, that the Palestinian suffering is greater than the Jewish suffering and tried to derive some legitimacy for the Palestinian cause from that. A lot of people argue like that in the context of this conflict and it is precisely the reason why these discussion are not going anywhere. There is no metric for human suffering. It can't be just directly compared, because in my opinion you can't calculate the value of a human life. So you're just entering a circle jerk, where you start to go back in time and pile atrocity on top of atrocity, suffering on top of suffering until there is nothing left to say, except for "I kill you!". So in order to have a meaningful discussion stop trying to prove that one side is suffering more than the other. The suffering of the Palestinian civilians is so apparent, that you don't need to compare it to anything to make your point. It is easy to make pools on antisemitism and racism btw, you count the complaint in police office, and check if any agression or action is related to religious confession. Now you can argue that antisemitism and racism is more than agression, but that does not mean you have a number without any meaning regarding the topic. What? There are plenty of acts of aggression linked to religious confession every year in France. For annual numbers related to antisemitism in the country, see here.
That's one tentativ of murder in a 65M people state. And a total of 105 acts.
With the same statistic you have more than 650 anti muslim acts. There is one mosquee vandalized a week in France (and you have to take into account that there are far less mosquee that synagogues).
http://www.islamophobie.net/rapport-annuel
http://www.islamophobie.net/sites/default/files/CCIF-RAPPORT-2014.pdf
I'm not comparing the numbers to state that one community is a victim and not the other btw, because that is stupid, but when you state that antisemitism explain the interest for this war you have to agree that it is a rather unbalanced argument. Why the population is not taking side with the Israeli fighting versus an islamic group (Hamas) considering how anti muslim they are ?
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I wasn't trying to compare the two but to point out that there is still some well-documented anti-semitism around today.
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On July 31 2014 19:48 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:44 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 19:30 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. This is absolutly wrong, can you give me exemple of incidents that happen against jews that are not related to the israelo palestinian conflict ? Jews suffer daily discrimination ? Hardship to find work ? Laws directed at their outfit or their cultural practice ? Let me stop you right there, because this is already the root of the problem. Why do you exclude incidents that relate to the israelo palestinian conflict? What does a person of Jewish religion, living and working in Germany have to do with that conflict? He might be opposed to the occupation, he might not be. He might have been to Israel or he might have not. You don't know that. So yes, if someone throws a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in Germany because of what is happening in Gaza, that counts as Anti-Semitism or Anti-Judaism. Also there are ongoing discussions in Europe about the cultural practice of circumcision, which affects both religious Jews and Moslem's. Furthermore the same laws protecting Jews in Germany are also protecting Moslem's. Please produce examples of how Jews were specifically allowed to execute certain cultural practices, that were forbidden to other minorities. The German high court would never let that stand. I'm not excluding, even if you count them in there would be less antisemitic actions than anti muslim in the entire europe. One of the main problem is that jews, and most europe, is educated in the 2nd WW narrative where jews are the victims, and when you look at pools, you see that people see jews as victims of antisemitism (in europe) but that does not conccur with facts. First of all, I doubt there is any credible comparative study, that has tried to comparatively quantify the amount of racism/discrimination against both groups. Such research is incredible hard due to a variety of influencing factors like education, social status, etc. Second of all it is actually irrelevant in my opinion. You have repeatedly in this thread tried to argue, that the Palestinian suffering is greater than the Jewish suffering and tried to derive some legitimacy for the Palestinian cause from that. A lot of people argue like that in the context of this conflict and it is precisely the reason why these discussion are not going anywhere. There is no metric for human suffering. It can't be just directly compared, because in my opinion you can't calculate the value of a human life. So you're just entering a circle jerk, where you start to go back in time and pile atrocity on top of atrocity, suffering on top of suffering until there is nothing left to say, except for "I kill you!". So in order to have a meaningful discussion stop trying to prove that one side is suffering more than the other. The suffering of the Palestinian civilians is so apparent, that you don't need to compare it to anything to make your point. This is absurd. I've never stated that the palestinian suffering is greater than the jewish suffering. I'm just saying anti semitism today is grossly overstated for many reasons, while anti muslim is understated. The idea that there is some kind of antisemitism in europe that explain why we focus so much on the israelo palestinian conflict is just retarded and that's a fact. Nelson Mandela is also an antisemitic when he state that "our freedom is incomplete whithout the freedom of palestinians" ? Was he refusing to see murders in Syria and elsewhere ? Or is it that he sees in the israelo palestinian conflict a situation rather close to the south african apartheid, much like Jimmy Carter ? It is easy to make pools on antisemitism and racism btw, you count the complaint in police office, and check if any agression (physical or verbal) or action is related to religious confession. Now you can argue that antisemitism and racism is more than agressions, but that does not mean you have a number without any meaning regarding the topic.
You can make such polls, but they are not representative nor will they sufficiently capture the problem. In any case, please show me these polls if you have them. Please don't forget, that you still have to factor in the relative population size for it to be meaningful. And than there is the fact that the legislation in different countries across Europe might actually have different definitions in regard to such offenses, which also has to be taken into account... Please accept, that your blanket statement is almost impossible to support without substantial research.
And regarding you never stated that A > B. Maybe I got confused by your constant argumentation that A is underrated and B is overrated. Even without directly saying it, your argumentation and general demeanor have at least very strongly implied it. Furthermore almost no one here has tried to argue, that the Palestinian suffering isn't massive nor is that the widespread opinion from the news reports I've been reading all week. Quite the opposite to be honest.
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On July 31 2014 20:14 kwizach wrote:
I wasn't trying to compare the two but to point out that there is still some well-documented anti-semitism around today.
Yeah I completly agree, I said there are no discrimination not no antisemitism.
On July 31 2014 20:15 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:48 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 19:44 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:33 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 19:30 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 19:21 WhiteDog wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. This is absolutly wrong, can you give me exemple of incidents that happen against jews that are not related to the israelo palestinian conflict ? Jews suffer daily discrimination ? Hardship to find work ? Laws directed at their outfit or their cultural practice ? Let me stop you right there, because this is already the root of the problem. Why do you exclude incidents that relate to the israelo palestinian conflict? What does a person of Jewish religion, living and working in Germany have to do with that conflict? He might be opposed to the occupation, he might not be. He might have been to Israel or he might have not. You don't know that. So yes, if someone throws a Molotov cocktail at a synagogue in Germany because of what is happening in Gaza, that counts as Anti-Semitism or Anti-Judaism. Also there are ongoing discussions in Europe about the cultural practice of circumcision, which affects both religious Jews and Moslem's. Furthermore the same laws protecting Jews in Germany are also protecting Moslem's. Please produce examples of how Jews were specifically allowed to execute certain cultural practices, that were forbidden to other minorities. The German high court would never let that stand. I'm not excluding, even if you count them in there would be less antisemitic actions than anti muslim in the entire europe. One of the main problem is that jews, and most europe, is educated in the 2nd WW narrative where jews are the victims, and when you look at pools, you see that people see jews as victims of antisemitism (in europe) but that does not conccur with facts. First of all, I doubt there is any credible comparative study, that has tried to comparatively quantify the amount of racism/discrimination against both groups. Such research is incredible hard due to a variety of influencing factors like education, social status, etc. Second of all it is actually irrelevant in my opinion. You have repeatedly in this thread tried to argue, that the Palestinian suffering is greater than the Jewish suffering and tried to derive some legitimacy for the Palestinian cause from that. A lot of people argue like that in the context of this conflict and it is precisely the reason why these discussion are not going anywhere. There is no metric for human suffering. It can't be just directly compared, because in my opinion you can't calculate the value of a human life. So you're just entering a circle jerk, where you start to go back in time and pile atrocity on top of atrocity, suffering on top of suffering until there is nothing left to say, except for "I kill you!". So in order to have a meaningful discussion stop trying to prove that one side is suffering more than the other. The suffering of the Palestinian civilians is so apparent, that you don't need to compare it to anything to make your point. This is absurd. I've never stated that the palestinian suffering is greater than the jewish suffering. I'm just saying anti semitism today is grossly overstated for many reasons, while anti muslim is understated. The idea that there is some kind of antisemitism in europe that explain why we focus so much on the israelo palestinian conflict is just retarded and that's a fact. Nelson Mandela is also an antisemitic when he state that "our freedom is incomplete whithout the freedom of palestinians" ? Was he refusing to see murders in Syria and elsewhere ? Or is it that he sees in the israelo palestinian conflict a situation rather close to the south african apartheid, much like Jimmy Carter ? It is easy to make pools on antisemitism and racism btw, you count the complaint in police office, and check if any agression (physical or verbal) or action is related to religious confession. Now you can argue that antisemitism and racism is more than agressions, but that does not mean you have a number without any meaning regarding the topic. You can make such polls, but they are not representative nor will they sufficiently capture the problem. In any case, please show me these polls if you have them. Please don't forget, that you still have to factor in the relative population size for it to be meaningful. And than there is the fact that the legislation in different countries across Europe might actually have different definitions in regard to such offenses, which also has to be taken into account... Please accept, that your blanket statement is almost impossible to support without substantial research. And regarding you never stated that A > B. Maybe I got confused by your constant argumentation that A is underrated and B is overrated. Even without directly saying it, your argumentation and general demeanor have at least very strongly implied it. Furthermore almost no one here has tried to argue, that the Palestinian suffering isn't massive nor is that the widespread opinion from the news reports I've been reading all week. Quite the opposite to be honest.
The problem is that I never used the word suffering, I talked about anti semitism and anti muslim actions. Suffering, as you stated, is a subjective experience impossible to quantify and thus harder to discuss about.
About the pools, my main problem is that they are in french and I can't find any in english.
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I would agree that aggression or prejudice against muslims is alot more dominant than anti-jewism. The only thing where the jews "win" in that regard is jokes, there's alot more jokes about jews than muslims. Other than that, as i said, pure criticism of the knesset/israels government is already considered anti-semitism by alot of people (including the jewish community in germany), playing the victim-harp.
That doesn't mean that anti-semitism is something predominant in the EU. Bullshit-organizations like NPD (nationalistic party in germany) in general (or at all) never talk about jews, but about arab immigrants. Every hooligan/neo-nazi demonstration is about that, not jews. Yes, you have to occasional dumbfucks shouting "burn jews" now, but compared to how often i heard/read "burn arabs", it's not even close.
edit: not saying there is no anti-semitism, but alot what is considered "anti-semitism" (not all, but alot) is simply critique directed at Israel.
edit2: the post below me has merit. Especially the "it got blown completely out of proportion" is actually a fact.
For everyone able to read german
http://www.zentralratdjuden.de/de/article/4923.warum-gibt-es-keine-welle-der-sympathie-mit-uns-juden.html (jewish central comittee in germany, even though most likely this translation is kinda wonky)
Do you actual consider this bullshit "fact"? Jews asking if they "need to leave germany again" or "do we need to pack our suitcases again" in regards of WW2? How is that proportional?
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On July 31 2014 19:17 BlueSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2014 19:07 Broetchenholer wrote:On July 31 2014 17:57 BlueSpace wrote:On July 31 2014 17:44 Liquid`Drone wrote:
anti-muslim sentiments are much more common than anti-semitic sentiments in Europe. I guess Israel is trying to make themselves competitive on this arena as well, but this is the only conflict ever where public opinion is siding with muslims. And that's not because people hate "the jews" so much, it's because there hasn't been a this one-sided conflict where the dominant factor is so dependent on the international community's support. Anti-muslim is flavour of the month. Anti-Semitism is a tried and true build since the beginning. Sorry, but your statement is so lopsided, that I had to resort to SC2 strategy terms to respond. Also one sentiment isn't exclusive to the other. People are perfectly capable of irrational hatred towards more than one thing/person/issue. Sorry, but i don't believe this just one bit. I have yet to find a single human being in my vicinity to be anti-semitic. There is just absolutely no justfication for that anymore. People in europe, and for sure in Germany, are atheists or as christian disguised agnostics. So, any hate from different religion is basically gone. And on top of that, you just don't recognize the jews. They are completely invisible in our country. So, you might have heard some wrong stories about the evil jew from your grand-fathers generation, but you can't relate to that at all. So, if you are not a neo-nazi, who hates basically anything, you just don't care about jews. Turks and people from the balkan make up a much larger percentage and actually are visible as foreign as well as quite vocal about their heritage, so they are usually picked if someone wants to vent about people he does not understand or needs a scapegoat. I don't know about other countries in Europe, but they will have the same phenomena. Much more culturally divers populations with higher percentage of non european immigrants and jewish communities that look just like them and not like foreigners and behave exactly like them, because they are europeans to begin with. Your argument is based upon the small sample size of the people that you individually know. The Jewisch community in Germany feels different and as they are the target of the sentiments, I will give them the benefit of the doubt. And you're argument about visibility is somewhat cynical if you as a German apply it to Jews in Germany. I know that you don't mean it that way, but please be very careful when choosing your words.
Sorry but this is just bullshit! There is a very small but very vocal and aggressive community in europe that does that. Saying that antisemitism is on the rise because the neo-nazis are acting up again is just wrong. These people are dangerous indivisuals with no agenda then hatred and they are met with opposition everywhere they turn up. YOu will never be able to get rid of them completely, but holding a whole country hostage for the action of a tiny minority that is actively opposed everywhere is just wrong. There is no basis for antisemitism in germany. There is however a lot of prejuduice and bad blood against muslems. Anf if i see a spokes(wo)man talk about "hemmungslose Judenhetze" which would be translated as unrestrained hunt of jews. This is blown so out of proportion again, would be really nice if everyone would just calm down.
Edit: Spelling
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EPT
