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On August 01 2014 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 00:17 Nyxisto wrote:
I personally don't know who 'wins' this hate contest but I also don't really care. Anti-Semitism and islamophobia have reached ridiculous levels in most of Europe. I don't know what it is with this continent but these völkisch movements gaining ground again is just sad.
A few days ago here in Cologne after one of the protests I met some Jews that said that they're not wearing their Kippah openly any more because they'll fear that they get attacked, I think that's just completely unacceptable. What worries me most is that this time it's not the politicians that are fuelling the resentments against Jews, but it's actually the people as a whole that are acting incredibly indifferent. This is not different than USA tourists being randomly attacked in EU during Iraq war (well these attacks were mostly verbal). Normal people just don't like civilians in other parts of the world that are like them but born somewhere else being murdered en masse. One day it might happen to us and we hope someone will protest somewhere else and somebody will do something about it.
Then they should take a plane to Israel and protest there. On what grounds are people attacking synagogues and Jews in France and Germany? Because 'the Jews' need some form of collective punishment? I didn't see thousands of people in front of the Syrian embassy protesting against Assad, although he has murdered more civilians over the course of a few years than Israel has in her entire history.Muslim organisations here in Europe are very quick to condemn what Israel does,but I have yet to hear the public outcry about ISIS. There has always been a weird fixation by the European left on Israel, dominantly out of academic circles. Now it's becoming more mainstream and also more aggressive.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 01 2014 02:10 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote + Hamas spokespeople have reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes after the Israeli military dropped leaflets and made phone calls warning people in the area to evacuate. Can we please stop repeating the same sentence again and again. When Israel drops leaflets and calls on the phone that they're about to bomb everything in the area is that targeted against Hamas? No, that's collective punishment, that in no way harms Hamas directly. They might as well poison their wells, it's not any different from that. Think twice about that before you think only the IDF is somehow more considerate of civilians than Hamas and the other groups in Gaza.
the other thing is that, there's no place to run to. Someone posted a picture earlier in the thread of Gaza and the buffer zone which is something like 3 km in. The whole place is being attacked and there's a blockade. On top of that, UN schools which should be considered safe zones are being hit so essentially, there is no safe zone. Redviper posted a good link about that a couple of posts above.
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On August 01 2014 02:17 BigFan wrote:
On top of that, UN schools which should be considered safe zones[...] Why?
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 01 2014 02:18 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 02:17 BigFan wrote:
On top of that, UN schools which should be considered safe zones[...] Why?
Did you just ask me why UN schools which are being used by UN staff and residents and considered emergency shelters should be considered safe zones? I don't get the question :S
This school was a designated emergency shelter, which meant that we had given the Israeli authorities, the IDF, the coordinates of this school on 12 separate occasions, most recently 10:56 this morning. They were fully aware that this was a shelter. We knew that the situation in Beit Hanoun was deteriorating from a security standpoint. So over the course of the day, we had been trying to coordinate a window, a period during which we could withdraw our staff, and any displaced people who choose to go to a safer location would be able to leave. We were never conferred that window, that time period.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/25/no_safe_place_after_deadly_attack
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On August 01 2014 02:15 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On August 01 2014 00:17 Nyxisto wrote:
I personally don't know who 'wins' this hate contest but I also don't really care. Anti-Semitism and islamophobia have reached ridiculous levels in most of Europe. I don't know what it is with this continent but these völkisch movements gaining ground again is just sad.
A few days ago here in Cologne after one of the protests I met some Jews that said that they're not wearing their Kippah openly any more because they'll fear that they get attacked, I think that's just completely unacceptable. What worries me most is that this time it's not the politicians that are fuelling the resentments against Jews, but it's actually the people as a whole that are acting incredibly indifferent. This is not different than USA tourists being randomly attacked in EU during Iraq war (well these attacks were mostly verbal). Normal people just don't like civilians in other parts of the world that are like them but born somewhere else being murdered en masse. One day it might happen to us and we hope someone will protest somewhere else and somebody will do something about it. Then they should take a plane to Israel and protest there. On what grounds are people attacking synagogues and Jews in France and Germany? Because 'the Jews' need some form of collective punishment? I didn't see thousands of people in front of the Syrian embassy protesting against Assad, although he has murdered more civilians over the course of a few years than Israel has in her entire history.Muslim organisations here in Europe are very quick to condemn what Israel does,but I have yet to hear the public outcry about ISIS. There has always been a weird fixation by the European left on Israel, dominantly out of academic circles. Now it's becoming more mainstream and also more aggressive.
are you saying that people attacking a synagogue would be ok if they did it on Israel?
like, your fixation on the location is super weird. these protests are not bad due to their place, but because the are hateful and violent. Peaceful protest against Israels politics regarding Gaza are legit.
also (german source):
http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2011-10/syrien-konsulate-deutschland
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On August 01 2014 02:15 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On August 01 2014 00:17 Nyxisto wrote:
I personally don't know who 'wins' this hate contest but I also don't really care. Anti-Semitism and islamophobia have reached ridiculous levels in most of Europe. I don't know what it is with this continent but these völkisch movements gaining ground again is just sad.
A few days ago here in Cologne after one of the protests I met some Jews that said that they're not wearing their Kippah openly any more because they'll fear that they get attacked, I think that's just completely unacceptable. What worries me most is that this time it's not the politicians that are fuelling the resentments against Jews, but it's actually the people as a whole that are acting incredibly indifferent. This is not different than USA tourists being randomly attacked in EU during Iraq war (well these attacks were mostly verbal). Normal people just don't like civilians in other parts of the world that are like them but born somewhere else being murdered en masse. One day it might happen to us and we hope someone will protest somewhere else and somebody will do something about it. Then they should take a plane to Israel and protest there. On what grounds are people attacking synagogues and Jews in France and Germany? Because 'the Jews' need some form of collective punishment? I didn't see thousands of people in front of the Syrian embassy protesting against Assad, although he has murdered more civilians over the course of a few years than Israel has in her entire history.Muslim organisations here in Europe are very quick to condemn what Israel does,but I have yet to hear the public outcry about ISIS. There has always been a weird fixation by the European left on Israel, dominantly out of academic circles. Now it's becoming more mainstream and also more aggressive.
Because most people associate Jews with Israel, and most of them are indeed supportive of zionism and Israeli policy, and have ties with Israel institutions etc.
Although most people that go after the Jews in Europe probably have no idea about any of these.
But you could also ask upon what grounds does the USA spy on American Muslim professors and politicians. There's not much you can do about these prejudicies.
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On August 01 2014 00:17 Nyxisto wrote:
I personally don't know who 'wins' this hate contest but I also don't really care. Anti-Semitism and islamophobia have reached ridiculous levels in most of Europe. I don't know what it is with this continent but these völkisch movements gaining ground again is just sad.
A few days ago here in Cologne after one of the protests I met some Jews that said that they're not wearing their Kippah openly any more because they'll fear that they get attacked, I think that's just completely unacceptable. What worries me most is that this time it's not the politicians that are fuelling the resentments against Jews, but it's actually the people as a whole that are acting incredibly indifferent.
Totally agree.
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On August 01 2014 02:22 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 02:15 Nyxisto wrote:On August 01 2014 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On August 01 2014 00:17 Nyxisto wrote:
I personally don't know who 'wins' this hate contest but I also don't really care. Anti-Semitism and islamophobia have reached ridiculous levels in most of Europe. I don't know what it is with this continent but these völkisch movements gaining ground again is just sad.
A few days ago here in Cologne after one of the protests I met some Jews that said that they're not wearing their Kippah openly any more because they'll fear that they get attacked, I think that's just completely unacceptable. What worries me most is that this time it's not the politicians that are fuelling the resentments against Jews, but it's actually the people as a whole that are acting incredibly indifferent. This is not different than USA tourists being randomly attacked in EU during Iraq war (well these attacks were mostly verbal). Normal people just don't like civilians in other parts of the world that are like them but born somewhere else being murdered en masse. One day it might happen to us and we hope someone will protest somewhere else and somebody will do something about it. Then they should take a plane to Israel and protest there. On what grounds are people attacking synagogues and Jews in France and Germany? Because 'the Jews' need some form of collective punishment? I didn't see thousands of people in front of the Syrian embassy protesting against Assad, although he has murdered more civilians over the course of a few years than Israel has in her entire history.Muslim organisations here in Europe are very quick to condemn what Israel does,but I have yet to hear the public outcry about ISIS. There has always been a weird fixation by the European left on Israel, dominantly out of academic circles. Now it's becoming more mainstream and also more aggressive. are you saying that people attacking a synagogue would be ok if they did it on Israel? like, your fixation on the location is super weird. these protests are not bad due to their place, but because the are hateful and violent. Peaceful protest against Israels politics regarding Gaza are legit. also (german source): http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2011-10/syrien-konsulate-deutschland
He's obviously saying that the rise of Anti-Semitism instead of peaceful protest of Israeli current policy is unacceptable, and that anti-Israel protests have a bit too much of an antisemitic tinge.
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On August 01 2014 02:10 EtherealBlade wrote:Show nested quote + Hamas spokespeople have reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes after the Israeli military dropped leaflets and made phone calls warning people in the area to evacuate. Can we please stop repeating the same sentence again and again. When Israel drops leaflets and calls on the phone that they're about to bomb everything in the area is that targeted against Hamas? No, that's collective punishment, that in no way harms Hamas directly. They might as well poison their wells, it's not any different from that. Think twice about that before you think only the IDF is somehow more considerate of civilians than Hamas and the other groups in Gaza.
Actually,
How is Hamas's rocket fire different from what Israel is doing?
Israel is launching rockets hoping to hit "military" targets but is perfectly content hitting civilians as long as they kill the militants also.
Hamas is launching rockets claiming to only aim for military targets (you can dispute the claim all you want, but that's what they've said) and the rockets fall where they do.
BUT - Hamas so far has killed around 53 soldiers and 3 civilians - about 95% accuracy.
Whereas Israel has killed about 75% civilians.
One could argue Israel are the Terrorists here, especially when the "terror tunnels" are being used to ambush Israeli SOLDIERS on a daily basis. Meanwhile Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.
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On August 01 2014 02:26 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 02:22 Paljas wrote:On August 01 2014 02:15 Nyxisto wrote:On August 01 2014 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On August 01 2014 00:17 Nyxisto wrote:
I personally don't know who 'wins' this hate contest but I also don't really care. Anti-Semitism and islamophobia have reached ridiculous levels in most of Europe. I don't know what it is with this continent but these völkisch movements gaining ground again is just sad.
A few days ago here in Cologne after one of the protests I met some Jews that said that they're not wearing their Kippah openly any more because they'll fear that they get attacked, I think that's just completely unacceptable. What worries me most is that this time it's not the politicians that are fuelling the resentments against Jews, but it's actually the people as a whole that are acting incredibly indifferent. This is not different than USA tourists being randomly attacked in EU during Iraq war (well these attacks were mostly verbal). Normal people just don't like civilians in other parts of the world that are like them but born somewhere else being murdered en masse. One day it might happen to us and we hope someone will protest somewhere else and somebody will do something about it. Then they should take a plane to Israel and protest there. On what grounds are people attacking synagogues and Jews in France and Germany? Because 'the Jews' need some form of collective punishment? I didn't see thousands of people in front of the Syrian embassy protesting against Assad, although he has murdered more civilians over the course of a few years than Israel has in her entire history.Muslim organisations here in Europe are very quick to condemn what Israel does,but I have yet to hear the public outcry about ISIS. There has always been a weird fixation by the European left on Israel, dominantly out of academic circles. Now it's becoming more mainstream and also more aggressive. are you saying that people attacking a synagogue would be ok if they did it on Israel? like, your fixation on the location is super weird. these protests are not bad due to their place, but because the are hateful and violent. Peaceful protest against Israels politics regarding Gaza are legit. also (german source): http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2011-10/syrien-konsulate-deutschland He's obviously saying that the rise of Anti-Semitism instead of peaceful protest of Israeli current policy is unacceptable, and that anti-Israel protests have a bit too much of an antisemitic tinge.
well, i obviously can guess that he tried to say that, but his remarks about how people should take a plane to Israel or how people not protesting vs ISIS are pretty strange.
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On August 01 2014 02:27 DinoMight wrote:
How is Hamas's rocket fire different from what Israel is doing?
It's not, both sides are at war.
However, Hamas has been firing rockets for years. And if Israel stopped shooting that wouldn't change what hamas does, whereas if hamas stopped shooting so would Israel.
Hamas went to war over grievances that weren't "they are shooting us". Israel didn't. What both sides are doing isn't particularly just or excusable but thats war. Israel's conduct outside of the war is pretty reprehensible to say the least but they aren't the side that chose the war solution and I find it hard to blame them for winning a war they didn't start, regardless of the things they have done.
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Agreed, Israel is just the side that forced the other side to go with the war solution.
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I don t know about the rest of europe but in France the state is totally responsible for most of the antisemitic actions that happened in the last few weeks. They forbid some manifestation, stated that all manifestations against israel were antisemitic, not to mention Hollande gave full support to Netanyahu. They ignored dangerous pro israeli group that created most o the tensions and during the event in Sarcelles the police even gave hand weapon to those people.
In a country with some radical pro palestinians groups (exactly like their jewish counter part) with such political situation (hollande is the worst president we ever had), such unemployment, taking a side in this conflict was asking for trouble.
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On August 01 2014 02:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 02:10 EtherealBlade wrote: Hamas spokespeople have reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes after the Israeli military dropped leaflets and made phone calls warning people in the area to evacuate. Can we please stop repeating the same sentence again and again. When Israel drops leaflets and calls on the phone that they're about to bomb everything in the area is that targeted against Hamas? No, that's collective punishment, that in no way harms Hamas directly. They might as well poison their wells, it's not any different from that. Think twice about that before you think only the IDF is somehow more considerate of civilians than Hamas and the other groups in Gaza. Actually, How is Hamas's rocket fire different from what Israel is doing? Israel is launching rockets hoping to hit "military" targets but is perfectly content hitting civilians as long as they kill the militants also. Hamas is launching rockets claiming to only aim for military targets (you can dispute the claim all you want, but that's what they've said) and the rockets fall where they do. BUT - Hamas so far has killed around 53 soldiers and 3 civilians - about 95% accuracy.
Whereas Israel has killed about 75% civilians.One could argue Israel are the Terrorists here, especially when the "terror tunnels" are being used to ambush Israeli SOLDIERS on a daily basis. Meanwhile Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.
Hamas doesn't have a defense similar to the Iron Dome that has been said to stop 90% of the rockets that are headed for civilian/military targets.
As for the 53 deaths of soldiers, I have my doubts that those were from rockets fired into Israel. I don't have any proof of that nor have I heard where they came from. I do know that 5 of those deaths came from the tunnels that Hamas has that lead into Israel where Hamas used them to ambush a military outpost.
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On August 01 2014 03:52 Donger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 02:27 DinoMight wrote:On August 01 2014 02:10 EtherealBlade wrote: Hamas spokespeople have reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes after the Israeli military dropped leaflets and made phone calls warning people in the area to evacuate. Can we please stop repeating the same sentence again and again. When Israel drops leaflets and calls on the phone that they're about to bomb everything in the area is that targeted against Hamas? No, that's collective punishment, that in no way harms Hamas directly. They might as well poison their wells, it's not any different from that. Think twice about that before you think only the IDF is somehow more considerate of civilians than Hamas and the other groups in Gaza. Actually, How is Hamas's rocket fire different from what Israel is doing? Israel is launching rockets hoping to hit "military" targets but is perfectly content hitting civilians as long as they kill the militants also. Hamas is launching rockets claiming to only aim for military targets (you can dispute the claim all you want, but that's what they've said) and the rockets fall where they do. BUT - Hamas so far has killed around 53 soldiers and 3 civilians - about 95% accuracy.
Whereas Israel has killed about 75% civilians.One could argue Israel are the Terrorists here, especially when the "terror tunnels" are being used to ambush Israeli SOLDIERS on a daily basis. Meanwhile Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun. Hamas doesn't have a defense similar to the Iron Dome that has been said to stop 90% of the rockets that are headed for civilian/military targets. As for the 53 deaths of soldiers, I have my doubts that those were from rockets fired into Israel. I don't have any proof of that nor have I heard where they came from. I do know that 5 of those deaths came from the tunnels that Hamas has that lead into Israel where Hamas used them to ambush a military outpost.
I doubt the rockets have killed a single person. All the deaths are due to close quarters fighting and explosives within Gaza. And Hamas would kill more civilians if they could, but Israel isn't letting them. But have no doubt, the will is there, just not the means.
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On August 01 2014 00:13 Sn0_Man wrote:Maybe better put would be if they were all the same culture. Every habitable place on earth "Displaces others" welcome to earth. Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 00:13 EtherealBlade wrote:On August 01 2014 00:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
Because that's why the 2 sides are in conflict. If they were all jews, all arabs, or all the same religion we wouldn't have this issue. Neither side was a very religious society at the start of the conflict if that's what you mean, but this has been changing with time. Even then, this is still not about religion. The people driving war rhetoric on both sides seem to be distinctly religious, regardless of the overall level of "secularity" on each side.
Like all wars it's about politics. Power. Sometimes political leaders are also religious leaders but that doesn't make it a religious conflict.
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On August 01 2014 02:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 02:10 EtherealBlade wrote: Hamas spokespeople have reportedly urged residents in some areas of the Gaza Strip not to leave their homes after the Israeli military dropped leaflets and made phone calls warning people in the area to evacuate. Can we please stop repeating the same sentence again and again. When Israel drops leaflets and calls on the phone that they're about to bomb everything in the area is that targeted against Hamas? No, that's collective punishment, that in no way harms Hamas directly. They might as well poison their wells, it's not any different from that. Think twice about that before you think only the IDF is somehow more considerate of civilians than Hamas and the other groups in Gaza. Actually, How is Hamas's rocket fire different from what Israel is doing? Israel is launching rockets hoping to hit "military" targets but is perfectly content hitting civilians as long as they kill the militants also. Hamas is launching rockets claiming to only aim for military targets (you can dispute the claim all you want, but that's what they've said) and the rockets fall where they do. BUT - Hamas so far has killed around 53 soldiers and 3 civilians - about 95% accuracy. Whereas Israel has killed about 75% civilians. One could argue Israel are the Terrorists here, especially when the "terror tunnels" are being used to ambush Israeli SOLDIERS on a daily basis. Meanwhile Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.
One could also argue, that if you want to evaluate accuracy in context of missile strikes you should probably only compare the damage caused by such strikes. Hamas has a astonishing 0% accuracy in 2014 as far as I could tell, because most of the time, they either hit nothing of any importance or they hit civilians. Sometimes they also incinerate cows. I didn't go through the entire list, but as far as I could tell nothing of military value was hit.
Don't get me wrong, what Israel is doing at the moment is disgusting and their blatant disregard for human life is deplorable, but you're attempts at arguing that Hamas is actually able to target anything with their rockets are ridiculous. And you might not notice is, but your constant hyperboles to somehow illustrate how cruel you think Israel is, are completely counter-productive. What is happening at the moment is bad enough. No reason to make unsustainable claims like "Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.".
It actually does the opposite of what you seem think. It makes a valid argument, that the toll of civilian life on the Palestinian side is far to high very easy to dismiss. All people have to do is to jump at the hyperbole and your argument crumbles. Because you can't prove that and your argument falls apart. It is also inflammatory and makes it harder to have a normal discussion with you.
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On August 01 2014 04:02 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 00:13 Sn0_Man wrote:Maybe better put would be if they were all the same culture. Every habitable place on earth "Displaces others" welcome to earth. On August 01 2014 00:13 EtherealBlade wrote:On August 01 2014 00:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
Because that's why the 2 sides are in conflict. If they were all jews, all arabs, or all the same religion we wouldn't have this issue. Neither side was a very religious society at the start of the conflict if that's what you mean, but this has been changing with time. Even then, this is still not about religion. The people driving war rhetoric on both sides seem to be distinctly religious, regardless of the overall level of "secularity" on each side. Like all wars it's about politics. Power. Sometimes political leaders are also religious leaders but that doesn't make it a religious conflict.
Genocide was popular once, forced displacement of people, semi-voluntary displacement, ghettoed multiculturalism, integrated multiculturalism and more. It is all about the time and place what policies are in in regards to cultural tolerance and religion. Why do I conflate religion and culture? Because the cultures I am primarily talking about are religiously conditioned, but not necessarily forced literally by religious texts as much as a certain reading of them.
Politics is informed by the fad of the time and place. Often religious interpretations and/or differences are strongly influencial on politics since the religious leaders are good at rallying opinions. In most of the western world, the lack of a strong church has moved that power to mostly ideology, media and other opinion shapers.
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Maybe radiatoren, but in this case can you put light on any relationship between religion and policies that you see in this conflict ? What's the relationship between jewish faith and Israel policies ? What's the relationship between palestinian nationalism (desire for self determination) and islamic faith ?
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On August 01 2014 04:08 BlueSpace wrote:
No reason to make unsustainable claims like "Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.".
Maybe "to blow off steam" was the right wording?
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/
"I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead"
Here's a video:
+ Show Spoiler +
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