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On August 01 2014 04:27 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 04:02 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 01 2014 00:13 Sn0_Man wrote:Maybe better put would be if they were all the same culture. Every habitable place on earth "Displaces others" welcome to earth. On August 01 2014 00:13 EtherealBlade wrote:On August 01 2014 00:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
Because that's why the 2 sides are in conflict. If they were all jews, all arabs, or all the same religion we wouldn't have this issue. Neither side was a very religious society at the start of the conflict if that's what you mean, but this has been changing with time. Even then, this is still not about religion. The people driving war rhetoric on both sides seem to be distinctly religious, regardless of the overall level of "secularity" on each side. Like all wars it's about politics. Power. Sometimes political leaders are also religious leaders but that doesn't make it a religious conflict. Genocide was popular once, forced displacement of people, semi-voluntary displacement, ghettoed multiculturalism, integrated multiculturalism and more. It is all about the time and place what policies are in in regards to cultural tolerance and religion. Why do I conflate religion and culture? Because the cultures I am primarily talking about are religiously conditioned, but not necessarily forced literally by religious texts as much as a certain reading of them. Politics is informed by the fad of the time and place. Often religious interpretations and/or differences are strongly influencial on politics since the religious leaders are good at rallying opinions. In most of the western world, the lack of a strong church has moved that power to mostly ideology, media and other opinion shapers.
I don't think we disagree. The question in war is always the same. What group of people should have power in a region? I make no distinction between religous rhetoric and political rhetoric. They are the same thing. Hamas and Isreal aren't fighting because they disagree over the interpretation of religious text but rather because they disagree over who should hold power in the region.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 01 2014 04:46 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 04:08 BlueSpace wrote:
No reason to make unsustainable claims like "Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.". Maybe "to blow off steam" was the right wording? http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/"I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead" Here's a video: + Show Spoiler +
this was really sad to watch. A murder of an unarmed civilian 
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On August 01 2014 05:01 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 04:46 DinoMight wrote:On August 01 2014 04:08 BlueSpace wrote:
No reason to make unsustainable claims like "Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.". Maybe "to blow off steam" was the right wording? http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/"I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead" Here's a video: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBakqLUBWP0&feature=player_embedded this was really sad to watch. A murder of an unarmed civilian
What's sadder is that it happens all the time. This was just caught on tape.
I have a friend who almost died in Lebanon because an Israeli F-16 released its extra fuel tanks over a residential neighborhood on the way back from a bombing run and blew up his house. My biggest criticism of Israel has always been they simply, DO NOT CARE, about civilian deaths. At all.
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On August 01 2014 04:50 sc2isnotdying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 04:27 radiatoren wrote:On August 01 2014 04:02 sc2isnotdying wrote:On August 01 2014 00:13 Sn0_Man wrote:Maybe better put would be if they were all the same culture. Every habitable place on earth "Displaces others" welcome to earth. On August 01 2014 00:13 EtherealBlade wrote:On August 01 2014 00:06 Sn0_Man wrote:
Because that's why the 2 sides are in conflict. If they were all jews, all arabs, or all the same religion we wouldn't have this issue. Neither side was a very religious society at the start of the conflict if that's what you mean, but this has been changing with time. Even then, this is still not about religion. The people driving war rhetoric on both sides seem to be distinctly religious, regardless of the overall level of "secularity" on each side. Like all wars it's about politics. Power. Sometimes political leaders are also religious leaders but that doesn't make it a religious conflict. Genocide was popular once, forced displacement of people, semi-voluntary displacement, ghettoed multiculturalism, integrated multiculturalism and more. It is all about the time and place what policies are in in regards to cultural tolerance and religion. Why do I conflate religion and culture? Because the cultures I am primarily talking about are religiously conditioned, but not necessarily forced literally by religious texts as much as a certain reading of them. Politics is informed by the fad of the time and place. Often religious interpretations and/or differences are strongly influencial on politics since the religious leaders are good at rallying opinions. In most of the western world, the lack of a strong church has moved that power to mostly ideology, media and other opinion shapers. I don't think we disagree. The question in war is always the same. What group of people should have power in a region? I make no distinction between religous rhetoric and political rhetoric. They are the same thing. Hamas and Isreal aren't fighting because they disagree over the interpretation of religious text but rather because they disagree over who should hold power in the region.
I don't think this conflict is very religious. As you state, the fighting is between groups about who should hold the power over specific geography. In the conflict religion is used as a rallying cry for some of the extremists. Those people who wage war are more often than not rather extreme in their reading of religious texts and hold non-believers in utter disrespect. The politics in the region is forced by those casting bullets rather than those gathering hay. That is where the dynamics is unbalanced at the moment.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On August 01 2014 05:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 05:01 BigFan wrote:On August 01 2014 04:46 DinoMight wrote:On August 01 2014 04:08 BlueSpace wrote:
No reason to make unsustainable claims like "Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.". Maybe "to blow off steam" was the right wording? http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/"I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead" Here's a video: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBakqLUBWP0&feature=player_embedded this was really sad to watch. A murder of an unarmed civilian What's sadder is that it happens all the time. This was just caught on tape. I have a friend who almost died in Lebanon because an Israeli F-16 released its extra fuel tanks over a residential neighborhood on the way back from a bombing run and blew up his house. My biggest criticism of Israel has always been they simply, DO NOT CARE, about civilian deaths. At all.
ya, I wouldn't be surprised ya, they don't care at all. They used white phosphorus in Lebanon which is banned internationally and dropped >1 million cluster bombs before a ceasefire was to take effect (24 hr prior and it was known that it was coming). We should focus on the Palestinian situation though they have it much worse imo.
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On August 01 2014 05:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 05:01 BigFan wrote:On August 01 2014 04:46 DinoMight wrote:On August 01 2014 04:08 BlueSpace wrote:
No reason to make unsustainable claims like "Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.". Maybe "to blow off steam" was the right wording? http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/"I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead" Here's a video: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBakqLUBWP0&feature=player_embedded this was really sad to watch. A murder of an unarmed civilian What's sadder is that it happens all the time. This was just caught on tape. I have a friend who almost died in Lebanon because an Israeli F-16 released its extra fuel tanks over a residential neighborhood on the way back from a bombing run and blew up his house. My biggest criticism of Israel has always been they simply, DO NOT CARE, about civilian deaths. At all.
Yeah, but that can be said about both sides. How many Isreali have died from Hamas-sucide Terror in the last years?
And those thousands(!!!!!) of Kassam-missiles the Hamas have fired in the last years are not aimed at military either, because they simply don't have the precision to aim at anything more than the rough direction of a town.
Like, I don't want to defend Isreal for doing what they do, but it's very hard to have any understanding for people who elected a Terror-Organisation as their leaders and keep on shooting rockets and sucide bombing, regardless of agreements. Against an opponent that could wipe them out completely in the blink of an eye. That's just stupidity in its purest form. And I gotta say, I have no doubt at all that if the technological-positions were turned, the Hamas wouldn't even hesitate a split second to bring out the big guns.
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On August 01 2014 05:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 05:02 DinoMight wrote:On August 01 2014 05:01 BigFan wrote:On August 01 2014 04:46 DinoMight wrote:On August 01 2014 04:08 BlueSpace wrote:
No reason to make unsustainable claims like "Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.". Maybe "to blow off steam" was the right wording? http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/"I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead" Here's a video: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBakqLUBWP0&feature=player_embedded this was really sad to watch. A murder of an unarmed civilian What's sadder is that it happens all the time. This was just caught on tape. I have a friend who almost died in Lebanon because an Israeli F-16 released its extra fuel tanks over a residential neighborhood on the way back from a bombing run and blew up his house. My biggest criticism of Israel has always been they simply, DO NOT CARE, about civilian deaths. At all. Yeah, but that can be said about both sides. How many Isreali have died from Hamas-sucide Terror in the last years? And those thousands(!!!!!) of Kassam-missiles the Hamas have fired in the last years are not aimed at military either, because they simply don't have the precision to aim at anything more than the rough direction of a town. Like, I don't want to defend Isreal for doing what they do, but it's very hard to have any understanding for people who elected a Terror-Organisation as their leaders and keep on shooting rockets and sucide bombing, regardless of agreements. Against an opponent that could wipe them out completely in the blink of an eye. That's just stupidity in its purest form. And I gotta say, I have no doubt at all that if the technological-positions were turned, the Hamas wouldn't even hesitate a split second to bring out the big guns.
Enough of this "Palestinians elected a terror organization as their leaders" crap. Hamas won some 40 something percent of the vote in 2006. Contrary to what the media or Israel might have you think, Hamas is a political party that has an affiliated military arm (those guys I think it's fair to call terrorists). But the rest of Hamas is involved in schools, daycares, hospitals and other aspects of life.
That election was also in 2006. Opinions can change very very quickly.. Just think of who WE had in office in 2006. It seems very reasonable that support for Hamas would have decreased since then.
And finally, you still have near 60% of the population that did NOT vote for Hamas. Are they all to be collectively punished as well?
EDIT - some 42% disagree strongly and 60% disagree with what Hamas is doing according to a recent poll. So Palestinian support for Hamas has decreased slightly since then. Another 42% think Hamas and Israel are equally to blame - which is much higher than I'd expect.
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I think both Israel and Palestine should have their govenments ripped out and rebuilt. Give both sides equal arms.
If they then kill each other again then leave em to it.
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On August 01 2014 05:36 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I think both Israel and Palestine should have their govenments ripped out and rebuilt. Give both sides equal arms.
If they then kill each other again then leave em to it.
that might just be the worst idea to solve this conflict I have heard of
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On August 01 2014 05:56 Paljas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 05:36 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I think both Israel and Palestine should have their govenments ripped out and rebuilt. Give both sides equal arms.
If they then kill each other again then leave em to it. that might just be the worst idea to solve this conflict I have heard of
This confict won't be solved unless Palestine or Israel is wiped out at the moment. At least that gives a chance for less warmongery people to be in charge of both states because lets face it, they're both equally bloodthirsty.
I mean seriously do you really really think Israel or Palestine will ever stop trying to kill each other.
You have one side backed into a corner fighting desperation mode VS another side with the USA in it's pocket and top tier military.
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On August 01 2014 04:46 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 04:08 BlueSpace wrote:
No reason to make unsustainable claims like "Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.". Maybe "to blow off steam" was the right wording? http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/"I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead" Here's a video: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBakqLUBWP0&feature=player_embedded
The right wording would be as retribution in an ever increasing circle of violence. While slaughtering for fun means for pure enjoyment without provocation. You also linked this directly to the causalities of the bombing, which implies that the entire bombing campaign is carried out for fun. So it is still nothing more than a hyperbole.
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On August 01 2014 05:36 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I think both Israel and Palestine should have their govenments ripped out and rebuilt. Give both sides equal arms.
If they then kill each other again then leave em to it.
An international force should demilitarize the Hamas, assure police in gaza, force a two state settlement and protect palestinians from Israel.
In a series of coordinated diplomatic and financial measures, Latin America is making a stand, heavily criticising Israel and cutting ties with the Jewish state, writes Channel 4 News reporter Guillermo Galdos.
El Salvador, Chile, Peru, Brazil and Ecuador have all recalled their ambassadors, while Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela, Uruguay and Paraguay have suspended the Free Trade Agreement talks, demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.
In a joint statement they called for an end to the "disproportionate use of force by the Israeli army in the Gaza Strip which in the majority affects civilians, including children and women."
http://www.channel4.com/news/gaza-strip-latin-america-israel-diplomatic-brazil-argentina
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Reminds me of the "Canada increases sanctions against Russia" headline.
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On August 01 2014 06:12 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 05:36 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I think both Israel and Palestine should have their govenments ripped out and rebuilt. Give both sides equal arms.
If they then kill each other again then leave em to it. An international force should demilitarize the Hamas, assure police in gaza, force a two state settlement and protect palestinians from Israel.
And what kind of state would that be? A theocratic state or a democratic state? Will the people be left alone or will some international force be present? It's hard to imagine Palestinian state that would be able to survive on it's own with some kind of intact legal system and civil rights.
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On August 01 2014 06:15 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 06:12 WhiteDog wrote:On August 01 2014 05:36 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I think both Israel and Palestine should have their govenments ripped out and rebuilt. Give both sides equal arms.
If they then kill each other again then leave em to it. An international force should demilitarize the Hamas, assure police in gaza, force a two state settlement and protect palestinians from Israel. And what kind of state would that be? A theocratic state or a democratic state? Will the people be left alone or will some international force be present? It's hard to imagine Palestinian state that would be able to survive on it's own with some kind of intact legal system and civil rights.
I think this is that point where you accept that you can't have an ideal outcome and you instead aim for one where people can at least live and build on that. It's better than "a crater of rubble filled with dead kids" which is what you have / will get if someone doesn't put the boot in.
It's like that patient that is riddled with metastatic cancer. You can't cure it, but you can do things to improve life.
Good on South America for making a stand. I'm sure Israel doesn't give a fuck. Maybe get Europe and/or China to do something and they might bat an eyelid (or just get big dad USA to lean on em).
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On August 01 2014 06:15 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 06:12 WhiteDog wrote:On August 01 2014 05:36 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I think both Israel and Palestine should have their govenments ripped out and rebuilt. Give both sides equal arms.
If they then kill each other again then leave em to it. An international force should demilitarize the Hamas, assure police in gaza, force a two state settlement and protect palestinians from Israel. And what kind of state would that be? A theocratic state or a democratic state? Will the people be left alone or will some international force be present? It's hard to imagine Palestinian state that would be able to survive on it's own with some kind of intact legal system and civil rights.
What if it is a theocratic state ? If it live in peace, people can do whatever they want.
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On August 01 2014 05:35 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 05:26 Big J wrote:On August 01 2014 05:02 DinoMight wrote:On August 01 2014 05:01 BigFan wrote:On August 01 2014 04:46 DinoMight wrote:On August 01 2014 04:08 BlueSpace wrote:
No reason to make unsustainable claims like "Israelis are slaughtering Palestinian civilians for fun.". Maybe "to blow off steam" was the right wording? http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/israeli-soldier-admits-murdering-palestinian-civilians-was-a-pre-planned-act-of-revenge/"I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead" Here's a video: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBakqLUBWP0&feature=player_embedded this was really sad to watch. A murder of an unarmed civilian What's sadder is that it happens all the time. This was just caught on tape. I have a friend who almost died in Lebanon because an Israeli F-16 released its extra fuel tanks over a residential neighborhood on the way back from a bombing run and blew up his house. My biggest criticism of Israel has always been they simply, DO NOT CARE, about civilian deaths. At all. Yeah, but that can be said about both sides. How many Isreali have died from Hamas-sucide Terror in the last years? And those thousands(!!!!!) of Kassam-missiles the Hamas have fired in the last years are not aimed at military either, because they simply don't have the precision to aim at anything more than the rough direction of a town. Like, I don't want to defend Isreal for doing what they do, but it's very hard to have any understanding for people who elected a Terror-Organisation as their leaders and keep on shooting rockets and sucide bombing, regardless of agreements. Against an opponent that could wipe them out completely in the blink of an eye. That's just stupidity in its purest form. And I gotta say, I have no doubt at all that if the technological-positions were turned, the Hamas wouldn't even hesitate a split second to bring out the big guns. Enough of this "Palestinians elected a terror organization as their leaders" crap. Hamas won some 40 something percent of the vote in 2006. Contrary to what the media or Israel might have you think, Hamas is a political party that has an affiliated military arm (those guys I think it's fair to call terrorists). But the rest of Hamas is involved in schools, daycares, hospitals and other aspects of life. That election was also in 2006. Opinions can change very very quickly.. Just think of who WE had in office in 2006. It seems very reasonable that support for Hamas would have decreased since then. And finally, you still have near 60% of the population that did NOT vote for Hamas. Are they all to be collectively punished as well? EDIT - some 42% disagree strongly and 60% disagree with what Hamas is doing according to a recent poll. So Palestinian support for Hamas has decreased slightly since then. Another 42% think Hamas and Israel are equally to blame - which is much higher than I'd expect.
Yes, they have that military arm, so they are to blame. And those "look what else we do"-arguments hold for each party/organization etc. Hamas is being recognized as Terror-organization the US, the EU and so on. That's enough for me.
And no, they shouldnt be collectively punished. But in a representational government you cannot just shift the blame by saying "not me, Im only part of this country when the guys I vote for are in charge."
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On August 01 2014 06:20 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 06:15 Nyxisto wrote:On August 01 2014 06:12 WhiteDog wrote:On August 01 2014 05:36 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I think both Israel and Palestine should have their govenments ripped out and rebuilt. Give both sides equal arms.
If they then kill each other again then leave em to it. An international force should demilitarize the Hamas, assure police in gaza, force a two state settlement and protect palestinians from Israel. And what kind of state would that be? A theocratic state or a democratic state? Will the people be left alone or will some international force be present? It's hard to imagine Palestinian state that would be able to survive on it's own with some kind of intact legal system and civil rights. What if it is a theocratic state ? If it live in peace, people can do whatever they want.
Because they'd probably get armed by their best friends in the region (Iran *cough*) and I could understand why Israel would never tolerate that.
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On August 01 2014 06:28 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2014 06:20 WhiteDog wrote:On August 01 2014 06:15 Nyxisto wrote:On August 01 2014 06:12 WhiteDog wrote:On August 01 2014 05:36 MoonfireSpam wrote:
I think both Israel and Palestine should have their govenments ripped out and rebuilt. Give both sides equal arms.
If they then kill each other again then leave em to it. An international force should demilitarize the Hamas, assure police in gaza, force a two state settlement and protect palestinians from Israel. And what kind of state would that be? A theocratic state or a democratic state? Will the people be left alone or will some international force be present? It's hard to imagine Palestinian state that would be able to survive on it's own with some kind of intact legal system and civil rights. What if it is a theocratic state ? If it live in peace, people can do whatever they want. Because they'd probably get armed by their best friends in the region (Iran *cough*) and I could understand why Israel would never tolerate that.
You're right, the best way is to nuke all Palestine because there is no end to this conflict and since there are too many arabs - iran, syria, irak, etc. - and that they are all dangerous extremists who can't never ever accept a jewish state in the holy land, and who just don't want to live in peace, we should bomb them too.
It's all the fault of arabs for being savage, undemocratic religious freaks...
That's Bush level analysis.
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I mean I personally think a 1-state solution where every palestinian is a full citizen with voting rights would be "ideal" but I don't have any illusions regarding how likely that is.
If international powers impose a 2-state solution I'm not sure how anybody expects to stop israel re-imposing the status quo.
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EPT
