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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
On December 05 2012 22:02 HoLe wrote: I find that a transgendered person, as far as public perception is concerned, obscures their gender in their transition, rather than defining it more clearly. Then you completely misunderstand what is it actually like, or what it means to transgenders when they "Transition" | ||
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Chocobo
United States1108 Posts
On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote: I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children? If so what are peoples thoughts on this? They can right now. There isn't any rule against it. However I'm sure that in some places, the people who judge applicants for adoption might be prejudiced against transgender people, and might go out of their way to find a reason to deny the adoption. | ||
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Rannasha
Netherlands2398 Posts
On December 05 2012 22:02 HoLe wrote: What purpose does gender have if we can just decide on our gender and change ourselves accordingly down the road? Do whatever you want, it's your own body. I don't think it's my right to stop you. What I will say is that there are large communities in both gender-factions that will not accept a transgendered person. In changing your gender you ostricise yourself. I find that a transgendered person, as far as public perception is concerned, obscures their gender in their transition, rather than defining it more clearly. You should stop making it appear as though people just wake up one day and say "Gee, I weighed all the pros and cons, but I've figured out that I'd actually rather be a girl than a boy." Transgenders (and homosexuals for that matter. And by extension, heterosexuals) don't decide to be the way they are. They just are what they are. | ||
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Alay
United States660 Posts
On December 05 2012 23:35 Rannasha wrote: You should stop making it appear as though people just wake up one day and say "Gee, I weighed all the pros and cons, but I've figured out that I'd actually rather be a girl than a boy." Transgenders (and homosexuals for that matter. And by extension, heterosexuals) don't decide to be the way they are. They just are what they are. Yep. It's pretty much a life of death question for many--it was for me. Either I transition, or live through a lifetime of deep depression, or kill myself. And I assure you those options were thoroughly explored before I settled on the prior. | ||
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Lynda
649 Posts
On December 06 2012 00:06 Alay wrote: Yep. It's pretty much a life of death question for many--it was for me. Either I transition, or live through a lifetime of deep depression, or kill myself. And I assure you those options were thoroughly explored before I settled on the prior. Same. It's really terrible that there's no way out of that triple bind. But then, if the option existed to give me the identity of a guy, I would never choose that. On December 05 2012 22:02 HoLe wrote: What I will say is that there are large communities in both gender-factions that will not accept a transgendered person. In changing your gender you ostricise yourself It's not my fault that I have a medical condition beyond my control that others don't accept me for. Also it's not our gender that we change, that's the only thing that will remain the same. On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote: I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children? There already haven't been any laws against it before. Also, for instance, us lesbian trans women in relationships with cis (non-trans) women can still have kids of our own blood together with our partner either before hormone replacement therapy or via spermbanking. Same goes for gay trans men in relationships with cis men, or straight trans men in relationships with straight trans women, but then it's an extreme sacrifice on the trans man's part to carry out the child, hence him feeling even more trapped inside his body and having a harder time to pass as male during, and for a while after giving birth. | ||
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HoLe
Canada183 Posts
On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote: Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote: Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. | ||
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Lynda
649 Posts
On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote: Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. There have also been cases where trans parents' children looked up to their trans parent(s) and said that they are proud of their parent(s) for having the courage to become themselves, it inspires them to be brave and it also made them more open-minded. Bullying and prejudice happen in the case of having homosexual parents too. And just who is to judge that a trans person cannot be a good parent, or by them merely existing, their kid would not develop well. You could say the same then about homosexual parents regarding identity problems, or about single parents, and regarding getting fucked up, I think most would take having a loving and caring MtF mother/second mother over an alcoholic, abusive father. But then, they wouldn't have the perspective of the latter case to compare it to, but as they'd grow older they'd understand. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote: Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. only if you think that it's someone's right to adopt a kid. | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
On December 06 2012 00:49 FrankWalls wrote: But is it a disorder of the mind, or of the body? Just as one could argue that the body is the basis, one could just as easily argue that the mind is the basis, and in that case it becomes a physical handicap instead of a mental disorder.what are the definitions of a disorder? that's something that i think is of utmost importance to the topic honestly. i mean i dont have much problem with transsexuals, but it seems to me that having something where you need to take hormones, often surgery, and other such provisions to be happy seems pretty.. disorderly. | ||
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Vain
Netherlands1115 Posts
On December 06 2012 00:44 sc2superfan101 wrote: only if you think that it's someone's right to adopt a kid. No, only if you think that transgender people have just as much right at adopting as black people in respect to the bullying/prejudice argument. | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote: Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Then the issue here is the stigma in the first place, not how it effects the child. Not to mention, why should anyone know the childs parents are trans? You seem to be making wild assumptions without really having any knowledge on the matter. EDIT: Oh, and you're old fashioned. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
My first point: I have to wonder if trans sexuality is a body image problem? Being unhappy with yourself is a part of life. Obviously there are degrees of unhappiness, but most people just get on with life. There will be good times and bad times, some months I will think highly of myself and other months I will curse myself for being an idiot. I would not change myself, though (at least not much). Secondly: what do trans sexuals think of the gender transition surgery being done in public healthcare? Here in the UK we have the NHS (National Health Service). This means that most medical care is covered by your national insurance. Cosmetic surgery is sometimes covered. You could not get a boob job on the NHS just because you wanted double Ds. You would probably be able to get a boob job if you were a young women who lost a breast due to cancer. As a teenager I believe my sister had some cosmetic work done as she had an accident that severely damaged her face, and she was able to have it restored surgically so that she did not have to go through life being even uglier than she already is. Do you think that trans gender surgery should be covered by public healthcare? (I an also including all of the other care, such as phsyc and drugs which I assume is needed along with the surgery). Lastly: What do you think about parents raising their children to be gender neutral? There have been a few trashy news stories recently about parents giving their male children neutral names and, for example, having them wear boys clothes on day and girls the next. There are even cases where parents sometimes send their <10 year old boys to school in dresses because they want their child to be able to choose for them self which sex they identify with. Could such a gender neutral upbringing make a child more likely to develop gender dysphoria? | ||
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Lynda
649 Posts
On December 06 2012 01:26 hzflank wrote: I would like to play devil's advocate a bit. before I do I want to state that other people going through gender transitions does not affect me in the slightest, so as far as I am concerned trans sexuals can do whatever they want. My first point: I have to wonder if trans sexuality is a body image problem? Being unhappy with yourself is a part of life. Obviously there are degrees of unhappiness, but most people just get on with life. There will be good times and bad times, some months I will think highly of myself and other months I will curse myself for being an idiot. I would not change myself, though (at least not much). It's not about the quality of looks, but about secondary sexual characteristics (that you look at to determine a stranger's gender). To quote from my own post from the previous page: It's not comparable to body dismorphic disorder; without a hyperbole, I'd rather be the ugliest woman than the most handsome man. Of course I care about looks, but my gender is the most important thing to me. I cannot live as a man for the rest of my life without being suicidally miserable about it. I tried until now, it never worked and I crashed. Gender dysphoria never goes away, it actually just even exponentially worsens with all the regrets about all the more years lost from some of the most beautiful youthful years had one been living them as their identified sex. | ||
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sephiria
106 Posts
On December 06 2012 01:26 hzflank wrote: I would like to play devil's advocate a bit. before I do I want to state that other people going through gender transitions does not affect me in the slightest, so as far as I am concerned trans sexuals can do whatever they want. My first point: I have to wonder if trans sexuality is a body image problem? Being unhappy with yourself is a part of life. Obviously there are degrees of unhappiness, but most people just get on with life. There will be good times and bad times, some months I will think highly of myself and other months I will curse myself for being an idiot. I would not change myself, though (at least not much). Secondly: what do trans sexuals think of the gender transition surgery being done in public healthcare? Here in the UK we have the NHS (National Health Service). This means that most medical care is covered by your national insurance. Cosmetic surgery is sometimes covered. You could not get a boob job on the NHS just because you wanted double Ds. You would probably be able to get a boob job if you were a young women who lost a breast due to cancer. As a teenager I believe my sister had some cosmetic work done as she had an accident that severely damaged her face, and she was able to have it restored surgically so that she did not have to go through life being even uglier than she already is. Do you think that trans gender surgery should be covered by public healthcare? (I an also including all of the other care, such as phsyc and drugs which I assume is needed along with the surgery). Lastly: What do you think about parents raising their children to be gender neutral? There have been a few trashy news stories recently about parents giving their male children neutral names and, for example, having them wear boys clothes on day and girls the next. There are even cases where parents sometimes send their <10 year old boys to school in dresses because they want their child to be able to choose for them self which sex they identify with. Could such a gender neutral upbringing make a child more likely to develop gender dysphoria? second: well, I live in Germany, I will not have to pay hormones/ operations due to public healthcare BUT in exchange I am subject to nearly all-mighty therapists, whose main hobby is to let people wait because everyone needs a therapist (it's free, right?) so you often wait like 6 months to get one, and if you have one... well its a process thats REALLY slow. I would very much like a free system, with better conditions. Money is easier to get than time (at least, for me thats true) lastly: thats leftist nonsense. Most people identify as either m or f, and forcing children to do what they dont want without any apparent reason ist just cruel. (that is true for trans and for cis people) | ||
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
On December 06 2012 01:26 hzflank wrote: I would like to play devil's advocate a bit. before I do I want to state that other people going through gender transitions does not affect me in the slightest, so as far as I am concerned trans sexuals can do whatever they want. My first point: I have to wonder if trans sexuality is a body image problem? Being unhappy with yourself is a part of life. Obviously there are degrees of unhappiness, but most people just get on with life. There will be good times and bad times, some months I will think highly of myself and other months I will curse myself for being an idiot. I would not change myself, though (at least not much). It's really not comparable to a body image problem. I mean, for example, for me, I don't really hate my male body. I just feel neutral towards it. Some trans people do hate their bodies. It's not a necessary prereq to hate your body (but I would argue that it is necessary to not have positive associations with it - this would be a red flag). What is necessary is there is a strong desire to be the opposite sex, and a feeling of knowing that to be "correct" (I can't really describe it to you. Sorry.) Secondly: what do trans sexuals think of the gender transition surgery being done in public healthcare? Here in the UK we have the NHS (National Health Service). This means that most medical care is covered by your national insurance. Cosmetic surgery is sometimes covered. You could not get a boob job on the NHS just because you wanted double Ds. You would probably be able to get a boob job if you were a young women who lost a breast due to cancer. As a teenager I believe my sister had some cosmetic work done as she had an accident that severely damaged her face, and she was able to have it restored surgically so that she did not have to go through life being even uglier than she already is. Do you think that trans gender surgery should be covered by public healthcare? (I an also including all of the other care, such as phsyc and drugs which I assume is needed along with the surgery). I think that the answer to this question is pretty obvious, but there are some nuances that need to be explained. First off, surgery is incredibly hard to get. You must be living full time as a female for at least 1 year before any psychiatrist will even think of writing you a letter of recommendation, and they must be absolutely convinced that you are not just a transsexual, but also that your genitals are causing extreme amounts of stress that cannot be resolved with psychotherapy. But if you somehow have a medical professional saying that this surgery is medically necessary, I do not see how you can justify that it not be included in public health insurance, other than some sort of prejudice or belief that the condition is not real. As for the NHS, there are a lot of problems that means that I would not get surgery which is currently covered by the NHS. Number one: You do not get to pick your surgeon. Secondly, many surgeons will opt to give you a non-sensate vagina because creating a sensate vagina is far more difficult. Now, I don't know about you, but I like being able to have orgasms. So, even though public healthcare does cover SRS surgery, it is not a very good deal for the transsexual. In nearly all cases they would be better off paying for it themselves. It's absolutely absurd that you cannot pick your own surgeon, given that different surgeons have completely different results. Lastly: What do you think about parents raising their children to be gender neutral? There have been a few trashy news stories recently about parents giving their male children neutral names and, for example, having them wear boys clothes on day and girls the next. There are even cases where parents sometimes send their <10 year old boys to school in dresses because they want their child to be able to choose for them self which sex they identify with. Could such a gender neutral upbringing make a child more likely to develop gender dysphoria? I think that gender neutral is not a good idea. There really are genders in the world, and people do tend to conform to one or the other. But what we should do is be more open to people who defy these norms. Gender is as much a biological construction as it is environmental (compare: intelligence - nature or nurture? how about both?) Gender neutral upbringing would probably not make a child more likely to develop gender dysphoria. Less likely, since if they chose their own gender, it's pretty unlikely that they'd be mistaken about it. This tends to be the case with intersex patients. However, gender neutral upbringing has other psychological consequences that I think make it rather unwise. Most kids identify as M or F, and forcing them to live as both in order to make a decision is cruel. So, again, what people ought to do is just listen to their kids (what a notion!) | ||
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Mercy13
United States718 Posts
My first point: I have to wonder if trans sexuality is a body image problem? Being unhappy with yourself is a part of life. Obviously there are degrees of unhappiness, but most people just get on with life. There will be good times and bad times, some months I will think highly of myself and other months I will curse myself for being an idiot. I would not change myself, though (at least not much). To quickly recap what has been stated many times in this thread, the view that is becoming increasingly accepted in the scientific community is that gender =/= sex. Gender is an internal mental construction, and it has to do with whether a person "feels" male or female. Sex is how your body expresses male or female characteristics, and it is not necessarily related to gender. People in this thread have related that when your sex doesn't match up with your gender, it is extremely traumatic for some (but not all) trans people. A lot of effort has been put into explaining why this is, but it is difficult because those of us lucky enough to be born with the same sex and gender take it for granted. We can't understand what that feels like because we have no way to relate to it. However, due to the facts that (1) many studies have demonstrated that there are measurable differences between male and female genders independent from sex, (2) the suicide rate among trans people is ~50%, and (3) many trans people are willing to assume the high cost and risks involved with aligning their sex with their gender, I think that the increasingly accepted view in the scientific community referred to above (Sex is not necessarily related to gender, and it can be very traumatic for people whose sex is different from their gender) is the correct one. Therefore, I believe strongly that trans people suffer from much more than "body image problem." | ||
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mortonm
28 Posts
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. | ||
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Mercy13
United States718 Posts
On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote: Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature. The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The english language doesn't have a good word for a person's internal sex determination. ITT people use the word "gender" to express this concept. What has a logical basis is that a person's internal sex determination (whatever we choose to call it) is not necessarily related to their external sexual appearance. | ||
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