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Keep discussion objective and civil.
Blindly spewing uninformed non-sense will lead to moderation action. |
On December 05 2012 14:15 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:48 Mercy13 wrote:On December 05 2012 13:37 ninini wrote:On December 05 2012 13:25 nolook wrote:
Can someone explain how wanting to be someone (something) else is not a mental disorder by definition?
I can understand softening the adjectives to let that group of people feel better about their condition, but this can't be seriously considered "normal" in any scientific community, am I wrong? If this isn't a mental disorder, than what is? We'd have to lay off a good 2/3rds of psychologists/psychiatrists in the field. They claim that they don't actually want to be something else, rather their bodies were constructed the wrong way and they want to be their real self. To them, the physical and mental gender can be different, and they believe that when the mind disagrees with the structure of the body, it means that the body is wrong, and needs to be changed. I've tried really hard looking for explanations, but I still don't get it. To me it's pretty obvious that if the mind doesn't like the body, it's in the mind that the problem lies, but well that's just what I think. Are you basing this view on anything in particular, besides your personal experience? "They" have been citing studies which demonstrate that there are measurable differences between male and female brain activity. Changing a person's gender identification has been tried in past, with often tragic results. Do some research on what often happened to kids with ambiguous genitals that were arbitrarily assigned a specific gender, it is very sad. It is scientifically accepted that gender =/= sex. If you want to claim something different please back it up with more than irrelevant personal anecdotes. Show me proof.
Here's an interesting article: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
To be honest it's a bit over my head, but this seems straight forward enough:
"ANIMAL experiments and observations in human brains have convincingly shown that sexual differentiation not only concerns the genitalia but also the brain . . . "
That statement is supported by 17 separate citations in the article.
Edit: haha shinosai's post blows mine out of the water. But yeah, there's a TON of evidence out there. Just use google, it's a powerful tool.
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On December 05 2012 14:14 nolook wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 14:05 Alay wrote:On December 05 2012 13:58 nolook wrote:On December 05 2012 13:30 Blazinghand wrote:
nolook, I'd recommend you read the additional parts of the OP to get a better understanding of what this means legally for trans people and to get an understanding of what it means to be marginalized for who you are. It's probably terrible when you get marginalized for your inherent needs and wants. But I feel like there are many other people that would easily fall in this category and they never received any similar privilege. You get marginalized for peeing in women's bathroom if you're physically a guy only because it is a normal reaction that is justified and expected from hundreds of years of social interaction. DO they really need to feel "normal", just like everybody else? Are there any transgenders out there that honestly think they are completely "normal"? Even mild asperger syndrome will make a person feel different, yet they live with this mental disorder fully realizing they certainly aren't "normal". But in their case you can at least make a logical argument that doesn't sound like early XXth century sci-fi writings (wrong type of mind stuck in a foreign body etc) I don't mind expansion of rights and equal treatment, but science should stay unbiased. This presumably will be taught at a university level which is just absurd. There's a difference between a certain level of abnormality, and specifically going out of the way to 'other' a group. Oh, and most trans women will use the women's bathroom because going into a Men's room while LOOKING female is significantly more unsafe. Both are pretty fucking scary though, even in states where there is legal protections. I'm not certain how exactly you can consider aspergers syndrome as fact, and deny transsexuality having a basis in science. That seems truly perplexing--is it because transsexuals seem icky? On December 05 2012 13:59 thisisstupid1 wrote:
Pretty much. We have so much social tolerance that "big is beautiful". It isn't. That kind of "beauty" is subjective, as opposed to the very objective beauty defined by shapes. On the other hand, we have people hating smokers and wanting terrible images slapped on cigarettes to put people off smoking or make them social pariahs by whipping out packets that have disgusting pictures on them. Such intolerance, yet a hamburger doesn't come with the pictures of how terrible being overweight is. And obesity affects other people too, so it's not an isolated "their problem, so its okay if they choose it" kind of thing.
Again, we normalized it, so that people are okay with it, and anyone who disagrees is ignorant and "ill taught" by society. Until you comprehend that the individual is not choosing to be something other than what they are--they're choosing to be who they are, who they were born as, and who they are stuck as. I highly doubt any individual would choose to suffer gender dysphoria, and transition totally sucks to go through. To do that though, you'd need to fully comprehend the topic. Why not keep an open mind and do some more research, instead of being so quick to define the world from the armchair. I'm not denying transsexuality, I said that if anything asperger in many cases has less basis to be considered a mental disorder, yet it is. Doesn't it seem a bit unfounded and premature to suddenly normalize transsexuality?
They're simply changing it to say the persons identity isn't the disorder, it's the horrible depression of being incongruent. I think it's hardly a normalizing move, but gives the disorder a better chance to stand up in a medical insurance environment, and in regards to lawmakers.
But I still doubt law makers or insurance companies will be changing anytime soon anyways.
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On December 05 2012 14:37 Alay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 14:14 nolook wrote:On December 05 2012 14:05 Alay wrote:On December 05 2012 13:58 nolook wrote:On December 05 2012 13:30 Blazinghand wrote:
nolook, I'd recommend you read the additional parts of the OP to get a better understanding of what this means legally for trans people and to get an understanding of what it means to be marginalized for who you are. It's probably terrible when you get marginalized for your inherent needs and wants. But I feel like there are many other people that would easily fall in this category and they never received any similar privilege. You get marginalized for peeing in women's bathroom if you're physically a guy only because it is a normal reaction that is justified and expected from hundreds of years of social interaction. DO they really need to feel "normal", just like everybody else? Are there any transgenders out there that honestly think they are completely "normal"? Even mild asperger syndrome will make a person feel different, yet they live with this mental disorder fully realizing they certainly aren't "normal". But in their case you can at least make a logical argument that doesn't sound like early XXth century sci-fi writings (wrong type of mind stuck in a foreign body etc) I don't mind expansion of rights and equal treatment, but science should stay unbiased. This presumably will be taught at a university level which is just absurd. There's a difference between a certain level of abnormality, and specifically going out of the way to 'other' a group. Oh, and most trans women will use the women's bathroom because going into a Men's room while LOOKING female is significantly more unsafe. Both are pretty fucking scary though, even in states where there is legal protections. I'm not certain how exactly you can consider aspergers syndrome as fact, and deny transsexuality having a basis in science. That seems truly perplexing--is it because transsexuals seem icky? On December 05 2012 13:59 thisisstupid1 wrote:
Pretty much. We have so much social tolerance that "big is beautiful". It isn't. That kind of "beauty" is subjective, as opposed to the very objective beauty defined by shapes. On the other hand, we have people hating smokers and wanting terrible images slapped on cigarettes to put people off smoking or make them social pariahs by whipping out packets that have disgusting pictures on them. Such intolerance, yet a hamburger doesn't come with the pictures of how terrible being overweight is. And obesity affects other people too, so it's not an isolated "their problem, so its okay if they choose it" kind of thing.
Again, we normalized it, so that people are okay with it, and anyone who disagrees is ignorant and "ill taught" by society. Until you comprehend that the individual is not choosing to be something other than what they are--they're choosing to be who they are, who they were born as, and who they are stuck as. I highly doubt any individual would choose to suffer gender dysphoria, and transition totally sucks to go through. To do that though, you'd need to fully comprehend the topic. Why not keep an open mind and do some more research, instead of being so quick to define the world from the armchair. I'm not denying transsexuality, I said that if anything asperger in many cases has less basis to be considered a mental disorder, yet it is. Doesn't it seem a bit unfounded and premature to suddenly normalize transsexuality? They're simply changing it to say the persons identity isn't the disorder, it's the horrible depression of being incongruent. I think it's hardly a normalizing move, but gives the disorder a better chance to stand up in a medical insurance environment, and in regards to lawmakers. But I still doubt law makers or insurance companies will be changing anytime soon anyways.
Yea, probably not. Insurance companies will just label it all cosmetic. I mean, can you imagine if insurance companies were required to pay for srs? They don't even want to pay for a birth control pill, and that stuff is cheap... And it will still be just as difficult to get the treatment needed. On the plus side, though, I think the change will help in legal battles where employers are legally allowed to fire transsexuals for expressing their gender identities.
Regardless of whether or not you think transitioning is legitimate, I hope we can all at least agree that it's pretty fucked up to fire someone for doing what their psychiatrist has medically recommended.
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On December 05 2012 13:37 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 13:25 nolook wrote:
Can someone explain how wanting to be someone (something) else is not a mental disorder by definition?
I can understand softening the adjectives to let that group of people feel better about their condition, but this can't be seriously considered "normal" in any scientific community, am I wrong? If this isn't a mental disorder, than what is? We'd have to lay off a good 2/3rds of psychologists/psychiatrists in the field. They claim that they don't actually want to be something else, rather their bodies were constructed the wrong way and they want to be their real self. To them, the physical and mental gender can be different, and they believe that when the mind disagrees with the structure of the body, it means that the body is wrong, and needs to be changed. I've tried really hard looking for explanations, but I still don't get it. To me it's pretty obvious that if the mind doesn't like the body, it's in the mind that the problem lies, but well that's just what I think.
Hypothetical situation. If you were born with weights in your legs that grew consistently with your body and you could never run or do athletic things, wouldn't you want to get that fixed? Would you still claim that it was a problem with your mind and not your body? Perhaps an odd example, but it fits well enough.
I know you're probably going to respond with something to the effect of "that would be an actual defect and it's not the same thing," but the thing is (and this is coming from someone who's experienced strong gender dysphoria), that desire to get your legs fixed that you would feel is exactly how transsexual people feel. I realize that it's hard for you to understand because you've never been there, but the best way I can describe it is that to a transsexual, their birth sex is a physical defect in the same way that other physical defects may effect other people. Except, in the case of transsexuals, it's even worse because they don't just want to get that defect fixed; they need to in order to be happy.
Again, I know it's hard to wrap your head around because you haven't been there, but let me try another way: Let's say that your level of comfort with your current gender (I don't know if you're male or female) stays the same, but you were born with the sex (that is, physical sex characteristics, both primary and secondary) of the opposite gender. Imagine yourself in that situation. Can you truly say that your desire to be perceived as the gender you feel comfortable as is a problem with your mind?
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On December 05 2012 14:31 nolook wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 14:24 TheTenthDoc wrote:On December 05 2012 14:14 nolook wrote:On December 05 2012 14:05 Alay wrote:On December 05 2012 13:58 nolook wrote:On December 05 2012 13:30 Blazinghand wrote:
nolook, I'd recommend you read the additional parts of the OP to get a better understanding of what this means legally for trans people and to get an understanding of what it means to be marginalized for who you are. It's probably terrible when you get marginalized for your inherent needs and wants. But I feel like there are many other people that would easily fall in this category and they never received any similar privilege. You get marginalized for peeing in women's bathroom if you're physically a guy only because it is a normal reaction that is justified and expected from hundreds of years of social interaction. DO they really need to feel "normal", just like everybody else? Are there any transgenders out there that honestly think they are completely "normal"? Even mild asperger syndrome will make a person feel different, yet they live with this mental disorder fully realizing they certainly aren't "normal". But in their case you can at least make a logical argument that doesn't sound like early XXth century sci-fi writings (wrong type of mind stuck in a foreign body etc) I don't mind expansion of rights and equal treatment, but science should stay unbiased. This presumably will be taught at a university level which is just absurd. There's a difference between a certain level of abnormality, and specifically going out of the way to 'other' a group. Oh, and most trans women will use the women's bathroom because going into a Men's room while LOOKING female is significantly more unsafe. Both are pretty fucking scary though, even in states where there is legal protections. I'm not certain how exactly you can consider aspergers syndrome as fact, and deny transsexuality having a basis in science. That seems truly perplexing--is it because transsexuals seem icky? On December 05 2012 13:59 thisisstupid1 wrote:
Pretty much. We have so much social tolerance that "big is beautiful". It isn't. That kind of "beauty" is subjective, as opposed to the very objective beauty defined by shapes. On the other hand, we have people hating smokers and wanting terrible images slapped on cigarettes to put people off smoking or make them social pariahs by whipping out packets that have disgusting pictures on them. Such intolerance, yet a hamburger doesn't come with the pictures of how terrible being overweight is. And obesity affects other people too, so it's not an isolated "their problem, so its okay if they choose it" kind of thing.
Again, we normalized it, so that people are okay with it, and anyone who disagrees is ignorant and "ill taught" by society. Until you comprehend that the individual is not choosing to be something other than what they are--they're choosing to be who they are, who they were born as, and who they are stuck as. I highly doubt any individual would choose to suffer gender dysphoria, and transition totally sucks to go through. To do that though, you'd need to fully comprehend the topic. Why not keep an open mind and do some more research, instead of being so quick to define the world from the armchair. I'm not denying transsexuality, I said that if anything asperger in many cases has less basis to be considered a mental disorder, yet it is. Doesn't it seem a bit unfounded and premature to suddenly normalize transsexuality? APA removed/reclassified Asperger's from the DSM in this same move (I think). http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2012/12/04/just-in-aspergers-prevalence-predicted-to-fall-to-zero/ You mean they will call it autism from now on? If anything, this is a step away from sparing the feelings of aspergers patients, kind of the opposite to what's being discussed here.
Autistic people aren't denied rights because dickwads in the government think they are weird and abnormal, trans-people are.
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As nice as this sounds this could actually be a bad thing for gay people in countries where homosexuality is banned. In many countries homosexuality is punishable by death, while claiming transexuality can get them an insanity plea. The weirdest is probably Iran, where the punishment for homosexuality is basically a forced sex change, or death(see documentary: Be Like Others).
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There are a lot of people still claiming that being trans is just a matter of thinking "well I like dresses therefore I must be woman", so I'm going to repost this. For all those people, it really isn't, but thanks for telling me what my own thoughts and opinions are.
+ Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 18:21 Twilight Sparkle wrote:
It's not about gender roles. Everything you said about what gender really is is absolutely correct. There's no reason that a man can't wear makeup and a dress other than ridiculous social bullshit telling him that it's somehow emasculating. But that doesn't have anything to do with transsexualism. Being trans is primarily about your physical sex; there are plenty of butch trans women and effeminate trans men out there. I myself am totally happy acting in a way which society dictates is masculine. I sit around on the internet watching Starcraft, playing DotA, swearing at people, not socialising much or having any close friendships. I make dick jokes constantly, watched the shit out of The Avengers and have no interest in chick flicks, rom-coms, whatever, I have no particular interest in skirts and dresses or makeup or pink, I do watch MLP but that's a show for guys nowadays. I'm not trans because I want to do 'girl stuff', it's because, for some reason that nobody, including me, truly understands, on some basic level some part of my brain just requires that I be female. Which means doing all the nerdy guy stuff that I do right now except I'm physically female and people call me she. That's about it.
That being said, there are plenty of trans women who act in a feminine way too, and trans men who act masculine, just like there are plenty of cis (ie, not trans) men and women who act in accordance to their gender roles. A majority, in fact. But there are also a decent number of trans people like me who don't fit into the gender role of their preferred sex, so saying that we all just need to abandon society's ideas of what men/women should do doesn't work.
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On December 05 2012 14:57 Twilight Sparkle wrote:There are a lot of people still claiming that being trans is just a matter of thinking "well I like dresses therefore I must be woman", so I'm going to repost this. For all those people, it really isn't, but thanks for telling me what my own thoughts and opinions are. + Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 18:21 Twilight Sparkle wrote:
It's not about gender roles. Everything you said about what gender really is is absolutely correct. There's no reason that a man can't wear makeup and a dress other than ridiculous social bullshit telling him that it's somehow emasculating. But that doesn't have anything to do with transsexualism. Being trans is primarily about your physical sex; there are plenty of butch trans women and effeminate trans men out there. I myself am totally happy acting in a way which society dictates is masculine. I sit around on the internet watching Starcraft, playing DotA, swearing at people, not socialising much or having any close friendships. I make dick jokes constantly, watched the shit out of The Avengers and have no interest in chick flicks, rom-coms, whatever, I have no particular interest in skirts and dresses or makeup or pink, I do watch MLP but that's a show for guys nowadays. I'm not trans because I want to do 'girl stuff', it's because, for some reason that nobody, including me, truly understands, on some basic level some part of my brain just requires that I be female. Which means doing all the nerdy guy stuff that I do right now except I'm physically female and people call me she. That's about it.
That being said, there are plenty of trans women who act in a feminine way too, and trans men who act masculine, just like there are plenty of cis (ie, not trans) men and women who act in accordance to their gender roles. A majority, in fact. But there are also a decent number of trans people like me who don't fit into the gender role of their preferred sex, so saying that we all just need to abandon society's ideas of what men/women should do doesn't work.
I can identify with this post. c:
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On December 05 2012 14:59 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 14:57 Twilight Sparkle wrote:There are a lot of people still claiming that being trans is just a matter of thinking "well I like dresses therefore I must be woman", so I'm going to repost this. For all those people, it really isn't, but thanks for telling me what my own thoughts and opinions are. + Show Spoiler +On December 04 2012 18:21 Twilight Sparkle wrote:
It's not about gender roles. Everything you said about what gender really is is absolutely correct. There's no reason that a man can't wear makeup and a dress other than ridiculous social bullshit telling him that it's somehow emasculating. But that doesn't have anything to do with transsexualism. Being trans is primarily about your physical sex; there are plenty of butch trans women and effeminate trans men out there. I myself am totally happy acting in a way which society dictates is masculine. I sit around on the internet watching Starcraft, playing DotA, swearing at people, not socialising much or having any close friendships. I make dick jokes constantly, watched the shit out of The Avengers and have no interest in chick flicks, rom-coms, whatever, I have no particular interest in skirts and dresses or makeup or pink, I do watch MLP but that's a show for guys nowadays. I'm not trans because I want to do 'girl stuff', it's because, for some reason that nobody, including me, truly understands, on some basic level some part of my brain just requires that I be female. Which means doing all the nerdy guy stuff that I do right now except I'm physically female and people call me she. That's about it.
That being said, there are plenty of trans women who act in a feminine way too, and trans men who act masculine, just like there are plenty of cis (ie, not trans) men and women who act in accordance to their gender roles. A majority, in fact. But there are also a decent number of trans people like me who don't fit into the gender role of their preferred sex, so saying that we all just need to abandon society's ideas of what men/women should do doesn't work. I can identify with this post. c:
Yea, of course. I think that's because most people identify themselves as having both masculine and feminine aspects to themselves. Me, for example, when I deal with men I am very masculine. Perhaps because I've never really gotten along with them and I find "guy talk" to be rather annoying, I always talk to them on a very superficial, non-emotional level (I identify this as a masculine way of communicating, as opposed to the more feminine way of emotional connections, etc). Decision making - masculine again. I deliberate and make a choice - I don't spend three hours trying to pick out the perfect zucchini squash. But then I also like makeup and looking pretty. So... yea.
Gender expression has a great deal of variance. But whether one identifies as more male or female is really up to how the person feels about themselves.
How does a trans person "know" they're trans? Ultimately we experiment and figure out what "feels" right. And ultimately, this feeling is never going to live up to the proof that everyone thinks they need to have, because we can't give it to them.
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On December 05 2012 14:28 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 14:15 ninini wrote:On December 05 2012 13:48 Mercy13 wrote:On December 05 2012 13:37 ninini wrote:On December 05 2012 13:25 nolook wrote:
Can someone explain how wanting to be someone (something) else is not a mental disorder by definition?
I can understand softening the adjectives to let that group of people feel better about their condition, but this can't be seriously considered "normal" in any scientific community, am I wrong? If this isn't a mental disorder, than what is? We'd have to lay off a good 2/3rds of psychologists/psychiatrists in the field. They claim that they don't actually want to be something else, rather their bodies were constructed the wrong way and they want to be their real self. To them, the physical and mental gender can be different, and they believe that when the mind disagrees with the structure of the body, it means that the body is wrong, and needs to be changed. I've tried really hard looking for explanations, but I still don't get it. To me it's pretty obvious that if the mind doesn't like the body, it's in the mind that the problem lies, but well that's just what I think. Are you basing this view on anything in particular, besides your personal experience? "They" have been citing studies which demonstrate that there are measurable differences between male and female brain activity. Changing a person's gender identification has been tried in past, with often tragic results. Do some research on what often happened to kids with ambiguous genitals that were arbitrarily assigned a specific gender, it is very sad. It is scientifically accepted that gender =/= sex. If you want to claim something different please back it up with more than irrelevant personal anecdotes. Show me proof. Intersex studies suggest that gender and biology are not the same. Those who were intersex who were assigned a gender based on various methods (analysis that attempted to determine the persons "true sex") tended to fail. The biology would not allow the scientists to presume which gender the child fell under, and their heuristics often led to mistakes. "Whether or not gender is binary or a continuum or a multiplicity (Fausto-Sterling, 2000), performing genital surgery on an intersex child before they are old enough to consent is highly likely to cause irreparable damage, both physically and sexually, which can lead to psychological trauma (Chase, 1998). Ironically, the protocol for intersex genital surgery was invented to specifically prevent psychosocial trauma and assist in creating a stable gender for the individual (Meyer-Bahlburg, 1998). Intersexuality suggests that a person’s biology and environment are not the only determining factors of sex and gender. In other words, intersexuality indicates that sex and gender are neither exclusively innate nor exclusively acquired (Rosario, 2004). This implies sex and gender are either determined by a dual influence of both biology and psychology, or a third unknown factor (Rosario, 2004). The unpredictability and suggested fluidity of gender in intersexual individuals, regardless of chromosome, gonad or genital, challenges the dichotomy of sex and gender (Kitzinger, 1999). Intersexuality not only challenges the idea sex determines gender, that all males are masculine and all females are feminine, they challenge the construction of the ideologies of sex and gender (Morland, 2001). Even when sex and gender conflict, intersexuality suggests they are interwoven – neither completely socially or biologically constructed (Rosario, 2004)." Chase, C. (1998). Hermaphrodites with Attitude: Mapping the ermgence of intersex political activism. GLQ, 4, 189-211. Fausto-Sterling, A. (1993). The Five Sexes: Why Male and Female Are Not Enough. The Sciences. 20-24. Fausto-Sterling (2000). The Five Sexes: Why Male and Female Are Not Enough Revisited. The Sciences. 18-23. Meyer-Bahlburg, H. (1998). Introduction: Gender Dysphoria and Gender Change in Persons with Intersexuality. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 34, 371-373. Rosario, V. A., (2004) The Biology of Gender and the Construction of Sex? GLQ, 10, 280-287. Morland, I. (2001). Is intersexuality real? Textual Practice, 15, 527-547. Kitzenger, C. (1999). Intersexuality: Deconstructing the Sex/Gender Binary. Feminism Psychology, 9, 493-498. http://littleparacosm.livejournal.com/90783.html
Intersex studies doesn't prove anything, as their sex is scientifically pretty hard to define to begin with. You could even argue that they would be both genders. Also, it's pretty far-fetched to make such grand claims based on a few studies with questionable scientific methods. Just because they failed to predict the best outcome, it doesn't prove anything. Besides, if they are supposed to be both genders, it's only natural that they would feel incomplete regardless of which gender was picked during the reconstruction surgery. Also, you don't know how a child would react after a performed surgery at a young age. Even if they don't remember it, it can leave small traces here and there, that might bother them for ages. It's also very likely that the environment can lead to confusion in such a extreme case. If the parents know about the surgery, they might overcompensate the childs upbringing in certain ways and overall act strangely around the child. This is something that they notice. My point is, there are so many factors here that you can't come to any conclusions.
On December 05 2012 14:33 Mercy13 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 14:15 ninini wrote:On December 05 2012 13:48 Mercy13 wrote:On December 05 2012 13:37 ninini wrote:On December 05 2012 13:25 nolook wrote:
Can someone explain how wanting to be someone (something) else is not a mental disorder by definition?
I can understand softening the adjectives to let that group of people feel better about their condition, but this can't be seriously considered "normal" in any scientific community, am I wrong? If this isn't a mental disorder, than what is? We'd have to lay off a good 2/3rds of psychologists/psychiatrists in the field. They claim that they don't actually want to be something else, rather their bodies were constructed the wrong way and they want to be their real self. To them, the physical and mental gender can be different, and they believe that when the mind disagrees with the structure of the body, it means that the body is wrong, and needs to be changed. I've tried really hard looking for explanations, but I still don't get it. To me it's pretty obvious that if the mind doesn't like the body, it's in the mind that the problem lies, but well that's just what I think. Are you basing this view on anything in particular, besides your personal experience? "They" have been citing studies which demonstrate that there are measurable differences between male and female brain activity. Changing a person's gender identification has been tried in past, with often tragic results. Do some research on what often happened to kids with ambiguous genitals that were arbitrarily assigned a specific gender, it is very sad. It is scientifically accepted that gender =/= sex. If you want to claim something different please back it up with more than irrelevant personal anecdotes. Show me proof. Here's an interesting article: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.fullTo be honest it's a bit over my head, but this seems straight forward enough: "ANIMAL experiments and observations in human brains have convincingly shown that sexual differentiation not only concerns the genitalia but also the brain . . . " That statement is supported by 17 separate citations in the article. Edit: haha shinosai's post blows mine out of the water. But yeah, there's a TON of evidence out there. Just use google, it's a powerful tool.
Here they have studied specific neuron totals in different groups, but there are some issues. The sample size is very small. The samples seems to point towards a similarity between trans female and female, in this specific case, but the fact that they found a similarity doesn't prove anything, unless they can prove that these neurons have an effect on gender identity. It's possible that these neurons tend to be lower in feminine individuals, including effeminate men. I know that hormonal levels and other stuff can differ quite drastically between individuals of the same sex, and typically it's the effeminate men that choose to be a trans woman, so seeing results like this is pretty much what you would expect. It's also possible that hormonal treatment had an effect, something they mentioned, and didn't see it having an effect, although they didn't really do enough testing on it.
Like I've been pointing out before, it's important to consider the factor of the environment and social stigma and stereotypes having an effect. In fact I'm convinced that ppl who are more alike the opposite gender than average, on certain hormonal levels and other things, are more likely to go down this route. What I disagree with is the concept of gender, as a construct that would be different to X and Y and physical characteristics.
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On December 05 2012 06:08 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:47 Thorakh wrote:
It doesn't even matter whether gender is genetical, a social contruct or you name it and whether being trans is a mental disorder.
All that matters is that the person in question feels he is a woman and that undergoing a MtF transition will greatly improve his quality of life and make him a complete woman (just without the uterus). If he gets happy from turning into a she, who the FUCK are you to deny him that happiness? You do not get affected by it in any way, shape or form nor does it harm anyone (and therefore cannot be morally wrong).
(obviously the same applies for FtM) You argument while well-meaning is narrow-minded. Of course, I am no one to forbid transsexual transition (nor do I want to) but it doesn't mean I should refrained to judge the actions of transsexuals based on my own personal philosophy. Philosophy is (or should) be a personal process about how you think people should live their life ( id est something that applies in general) You are free to believe whatever you want but if you want to judge a person who wants to acquire happiness and improve his/her quality of life enormously (in a way that does not affect you or anyone else) as a bad person, that simply makes you a dick and wrong.
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On December 05 2012 16:14 ninini wrote:
Intersex studies doesn't prove anything, as their sex is scientifically pretty hard to define to begin with.
Isn't that exactly why it DOES prove that those definitions are flawed?
On December 05 2012 16:14 ninini wrote:
You could even argue that they would be both genders.
It depends on how the person identifies. Once again, many intersex people identify as men or women, although I am sure that some of them identify as non-binary or "both genders". It is not a certainty, and you are right to say that there are many factors involved.
On December 05 2012 16:14 ninini wrote:
It's possible that these neurons tend to be lower in feminine individuals, including effeminate men. I know that hormonal levels and other stuff can differ quite drastically between individuals of the same sex, and typically it's the effeminate men that choose to be a trans woman, so seeing results like this is pretty much what you would expect.
You are so wrong here, it's insane. First of all, nobody chooses to be a trans woman. Second of all, "effeminate men" are just that: MEN who exhibit feminine traits. Likewise, trans women are not always effeminate. There is little correlation between stereotypical gender roles and gender identity, and there is NO correlation between gender identity and sexuality.
On December 05 2012 16:14 ninini wrote:
What I disagree with is the concept of gender, as a construct that would be different to X and Y and physical characteristics.
Gender is different from physical characteristics, because those physical characteristics only define a person's SEX, which is different from gender. Most medical communities agree with this distinction.
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On December 05 2012 14:55 InvalidID wrote:
As nice as this sounds this could actually be a bad thing for gay people in countries where homosexuality is banned. In many countries homosexuality is punishable by death, while claiming transexuality can get them an insanity plea. The weirdest is probably Iran, where the punishment for homosexuality is basically a forced sex change, or death(see documentary: Be Like Others).
Since when did Islamic countries follow laws adopted in liberal western ones? (OK... Iraq & Afghanistan after the yanks bombed the crap out of them and installed puppet governments but i digress...) Most are still stuck circa 1300 AD.Death penalty for homosexuality, stoning women for adultery = my point proven.
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On December 05 2012 06:19 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 05:26 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2012 04:50 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 04:42 xM(Z wrote:On December 05 2012 04:05 farvacola wrote:On December 05 2012 03:59 xM(Z wrote:
evolutionary speaking there is no way society was here before the sex; so sex/hormones dictates the gender ID which creates a social behavior.
the society is not the deterministic factor here. it never was. Where in human history did Nature write out the words "male" and "female"? You are correct in suggesting that sex/hormones play into gender ID, but who is uttering the ID, who is the one passing out these labels? behavior changes with hormones (among other things). human beings were acting a certain way before they could articulate it. or, labels were already there before people learned to utter them. Edit: you're arguing about why would i call a tree a tree, or i don't get it. in the end it doesn't really mater how you call it but you have to call it something 'cause its already there/it exists. No, this has nothing to do with trees, as trees play no active role in their own identification. Like I've already said, a major component of gender deconstruction is the idea individuals have the right to be labeled in accordance with their own gender identification or lack there of, not in strict adherence to outdated concepts of female and male appearance. i was talking about the root of the issue or the place it all started so to speak, but you talk about the definitions people made up for other different people, to put it somehow generally. those are only theoretical constructs with no innate value to the person whom you're categorizing as such. ps: i've no dea how rights fit into all of this. legal rights?, to be called "names"?. If a person with a penis feels like a woman and wants to be referred to as such, that is their right, something previously considered taboo. would that mean that before i could address to someone, anyone, i should skip past the appearances and straight up ask them if they desire to be talked to as if he/she was feeling the other way arround?. sounds like a lot of hassle just for ... theory sake. Last time I checked, striking up a conversation with someone generally doesn't require knowing their gender. Unless you're propositioning them for a sexual/romantic relationship, what you have to say should be appropriate whether they're male or female. And if it isn't... that's a personal problem you need to correct in general. You shouldn't speak significantly differently to men or women. So you shouldn't be needing to ask someone what their gender is either way. Let's say you meet someone. This person looks more-or-less male; no noticeable breasts, their voice is borderline, and their hair is cut short. If you then refer to this person as "he", but the person corrects you and tells you that she's female... would you actually argue with them? Would you ask them to drop their pants on the spot and show proof of vagina? Or would you simply accept it, maybe apologize for the error, and move on? How would this situation be any different if they actually had a penis at that moment? Unless of course you would be so crass as to ask them to drop trou and prove their sex.
well obviously i would not have them drop their pants and i would also not argue with them about it but they should also not be surprised or offended if i'll seem/look puzzled/doubtful (to say the least) when they'll correct me; and thats not because i think they're in the wrong but because they are not like me, because they're diferent, because i'm different.
it's at least intriguing and it makes one wonder as to why it happens, evolutionary speaking. does it have a purpose or it'll completely disappear in the future.
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On December 05 2012 19:07 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Since when did Islamic countries follow laws adopted in liberal western ones? (OK... Iraq & Afghanistan after the yanks bombed the crap out of them and installed puppet governments but i digress...) Most are still stuck circa 1300 AD.Death penalty for homosexuality, stoning women for adultery = my point proven.
InvalidID was probably specifically referring to Iran, where transition is often seen as an alternative to being homosexual. This is an inherently flawed view, as (once again) gender identity has no correlation to sexuality.
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Ninini's approach to this is horrible: presented with evidence that transgender people are overwhelmingly unhappy with their 'condition', he says it's no big deal, they shouldn't whine so much, and if the same thing would happen to him he'd shrug it off. It reminds me of some billionaire pondering: "being poor isn't so bad, right? you still can afford, like, food?" He should look up the word privilege in the dictionary.
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On December 05 2012 08:12 ninini wrote:
I'm trying to ask myself what gender I see myself as, and why, and I just can't come to a conclusion that fits into your idea of gender. The closest thing I can get is that gender is the stereotype that I classify with, and I can relate to both. I prefer pants over dresses, and the music I like tend to be more stereotypical male. On the other hand I have long hair and I prefer romantic comedies over action movies. I think I can relate to both male and female stereotypes.
The other theory is that gender and sex are the same, which is self-explanatory, and this is what I personally believe in.
This is not a logical comparison, because if your sex changed overnight, we have to assume that your memory of being a man would be erased, and your brain would change too, plus your hormones would be way different than you're used to.
Either way, I personally actually don't think it would be that traumatizing for me, and I think I would be ok with having a female body. I am male, but I don't really identify to a gender in a mental sense, so to me, my body defines what gender I am. I can't imagine being attracted to men though, and I don't think I would drastically change my wardrobe. So I don't think I would really change, or act different. The major difference would be in how I was treated by others, but that's irrelevant, because this is about my gender, not about how I want to be treated. If you want to be treated like the other gender, then become involved in politics and try to bring forth more equality in the world.
Here's an open question to everybody who sees themselves as trans.
You're saying that you feel like a woman/man, and that it has nothing to do with stereotypes. But if that's the case, what is it about you that makes you feel like you're female/male? I mean, can you tell me the points that your mind is making, to prove that you're a specific gender? I honestly did try asking myself that question, and I haven't been able to convince myself that I'm either gender. That's why I reject that gender and sex would be different. Please show me your line of thinking, or I will never be able to understand you. So far, noone in this thread have been able to convince me that there is such a thing as a mental gender, that isn't defined by your sex.
I believe that the majority of us don't like their own body, but that doesn't mean that there's something wrong with it. If a woman doesn't like her tiny boobs, even to the point that it leads to depressions, does it mean that there's something wrong with them? No, it just means that they were made that way. Now, if she wants to enlarge them, then she can go ahead if it will make her happy, but this concept that there's something wrong with your body if you don't like it, or even hate it, is pure BS. The issue is in the head, not the body.
It's easy to claim that gender = sex for people who only experienced them in alignment. To cis people it may seem like being a certain gender doesn't have a feel to it - and yes, it's a lot like breathing in that sense I guess. Being able to breathe does not make you happy, but not being able to is suffocating.
In retrospect I vividly remember having female self-images as a kid (I didn't see them as "self-images" back then), and due to all the shame I tried to repress them. I didn't ever really feel like I was a male, rather I was feeling impersonal, genderless, dissociated from my body due to having to bury or externalize my self-image onto others (which always led to disappointment since I couldn't live through them). Female pronouns and terms always felt "right" to me (no other way to describe it) while male ones felt wrong, inaccurate. I didn't choose to feel that way about them. I had very long phases of denial and trying to work against it, but I couldn't change my intrinsic, subconscious feelings.
I always secretly identified more with female characters from books/movies, with songs about girls, etc. despite being really ashamed of it. I didn't know why I did it, but I used to pray to God every night as a kid wanting to become a girl; I was unaware of sexual stuff so I thought that was like the most innocent thing to wish for, so I was really depressed every morning. I thought every boy desperately wanted to be a girl (how could have I known, it was obviously not a question that one could ask from others) but they just accepted their fate. So I tried too, but it never worked, it just kept worsening.
I used to take long walks while asking from myself "Could there be an illness that someone is the wrong sex? But it doesn't make any sense for there to be one.." (being unaware of possible genetics/hormonal birth defects' effect on sexually dimorphic neuroanatomical parts back then) and a lot of severe emotional pain about how I'm not getting a second chance at being a girl.
I didn't know why I felt that way, I didn't want to, I tried my best at being a boy/man and I just got suicidally miserable about it. I tried to let my sex dictate my gender, but my subconscious never agreed with it. Ever since I consciously accepted my subconscious gender and I'm on my way to transitioning, I feel infinitely happier than ever before.
I could say that in the same way people can't understand why someone would want to be the opposite sex, if I only took my own case, I could also say that I don't understand why every male doesn't also feel gender dysphoria and why trans men (FtM) transition, but I don't look at it like that, I accept others' gender identities despite the fact that I'll never know what it feels like to identify as a guy (nor do I ever want to find out, I'm perfectly happy having the identity of a girl) or as non-binary (genderqueer, bigender, agender, genderfluid, etc).
Sure, on a physiological level, the disorder can theoretically be taken as a neuroanatomical one, that it's in the brain (but even then, if you take the brain as the base instead of the rest of the body, then it's the body that is not the compatible one with that neuroanatomy), but if there's no cure for the neuroanatomical disorder (and even if there was, most of us wouldn't want our identity that is the dearest, most important part of us to be taken away against our will), then the only other option is to alter the body instead to match the brain, so it practically is a bodily disorder. There also is a difference between "mental disorder" and "neuroanatomical disorder". The mental disorder part of it is just the depression, otherwise we're functional people, while the whole "gender identity disorder" being previously classified as a "mental disorder" making us look in many people's eyes at the professional level as insane and our gender just made up in our heads and then probably they can think we have other "severe mental issues" too if we have that, and then they can fire us for being insane...
And it's not comparable to body dismorphic disorder; without a hyperbole, I'd rather be the ugliest woman than the most handsome man. Of course I care about looks, but my gender is the most important thing to me. I cannot live as a man for the rest of my life without being really miserable about it. Gender dysphoria never goes away, it actually just even exponentially worsens with all the regrets about all the more years lost from some of the most beautiful youthful years had one been living them as their identified sex.
Also here's an excerpt from Julia Serano's book Whipping Girl about your question:
It became obvious to me that I actually wanted to be a girl, and that, on some level, it felt right.
Trying to translate these subconscious experiences into conscious thought is a messy business. All of the words available in the English language completely fail to accurately capture or convey my personal understanding of these events. For example, if I were to say that I "saw" myself as female, or "knew" myself to be a girl, I would be denying the fact that I was consciously aware of my physical maleness at all times. And saying that I "wished" or "wanted" to be a girl erases how much being female made sense to me, how it felt right on the deepest, most profound level of my being. I could say that I "felt" like a girl, but that would give the false impression that I knew how other girls (and other boys) felt. And if I were to say I was "supposed to be" a girl, or that I "should have been born" female, it would imply that I had some sort of cosmic insight into the grand scheme of the universe, which I most certainly did not.
Perhaps the best way to describe how my subconscious sex feels to me is to say that it seems as if, on some level, my brain expects my body to be female. Indeed there is some evidence to suggest that our brains have an intrinsic understanding of what sex our bodies should be.
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I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this?
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What purpose does gender have if we can just decide on our gender and change ourselves accordingly down the road?
Do whatever you want, it's your own body. I don't think it's my right to stop you.
What I will say is that there are large communities in both gender-factions that will not accept a transgendered person. In changing your gender you ostricise yourself. I find that a transgendered person, as far as public perception is concerned, obscures their gender in their transition, rather than defining it more clearly.
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On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this?
Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever.
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EPT
