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Keep discussion objective and civil.
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On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis.
Except that much of the evidence presented in this thread is scientific. The inability for scientists to predict the gender of intersex patients, the differing brain structures between trans female and males, and also quality of life improvements from gender realignment all suggest that the previous scientific literature was incorrect. This is not motivated by feminist ideology - second wave feminism actually rejected transgenderism because it was "offensive" to what it meant to be a woman. Feminist ideology has been molded by transsexuals and intersex, not the other way around.
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On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis.
The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again.
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There is really no scientific evidence for redefining gender as something different from sex. Separating the two is not a scientific concept at all, it is a political one.
On December 06 2012 02:03 shinosai wrote:
The inability for scientists to predict the gender of intersex patients
Gender and sex are the same thing. Intersex people are intergender.
This is called the "begging the question" fallacy. You assume gender is something different as part of your proof that gender is something different.
On December 06 2012 02:03 shinosai wrote:
the differing brain structures between trans female and males
In what way do you think this separates sex and gender? If anything it demonstrates the exact opposite. If someone has to have a physically different brain makeup from males to be a transsexual they do not fall into the male sex/gender category.
On December 06 2012 02:03 shinosai wrote:
quality of life improvements from gender realignment
This in no way provides evidence that sex and gender are different things. It just shows that by indulging their desire to be a different sex/gender you improve their happiness. Likewise, going to furry events and wearing a fursuit may make furries feel happy, but no valid conclusions about the differences between species could be drawn from such information.
On December 06 2012 02:03 shinosai wrote:
This is not motivated by feminist ideology
The claim that sex and gender are different comes directly from feminist ideology. Feminists needed to explain why, although they claim women and men are equivalent, women prefer social fields of study over mechanical ones, as well as different toys, etc. They invented the idea that "gender" is different, so they could claim that women are just adopting the "gender" they have been forced into rather than exhibiting natural characteristics of their biology.
Ideological disputes between feminists and transgenders are really irrelevant. This is where the attempt to redefine gender comes from, and it is frankly quite silly.
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[QUOTE]On December 06 2012 02:03 shinosai wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
-wrong post quoted
not trying to start a fire here, but you are completely wrong by saying that they are used interchangeably in all scientific literature. if you give two shits i'm a psychology major
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On December 06 2012 02:08 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again.
Yes, exactly my point. Sex and gender always have been synonyms. The attempt to redefine gender as something different is very recent and motivated by political rather than scientific reasons.
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On December 06 2012 02:32 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:08 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again. Yes, exactly my point. Sex and gender always have been synonyms. The attempt to redefine gender as something different is very recent and motivated by political rather than scientific reasons.
Can you please tell me what "explicit differentiation" means? Because you've just indicated that you don't know. The AMA has maintained a clear difference between sex and gender for decades, and they actually stipulate that sex and gender are not synonyms.
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Gender and sex are the same thing. Intersex people are intergender.
This is called the "begging the question" fallacy. You assume gender is something different as part of your proof that gender is something different.
Actually, they're not intergender. Sometimes, they are. More often, they choose male or female.
In what way do you think this separates sex and gender? If anything it demonstrates the exact opposite. If someone has to have a physically different brain makeup from males to be a transsexual they do not fall into the male sex/gender category.
Except that if you define sex and gender as the same thing, and sex is defined as having a penis or vagina, then necessarily those who have a physically different brain makeup from males are still male if they have a penis.
The claim that sex and gender are different comes directly from feminist ideology. Feminists needed to explain why, although they claim women and men are equivalent, women prefer social fields of study over mechanical ones, as well as different toys, etc. They invented the idea that "gender" is different, so they could claim that women are just adopting the "gender" they have been forced into rather than exhibiting natural characteristics of their biology.
You mistakenly put all of feminism under one umbrella. Not all feminists buy into the idea of gender. Some feminists are gender essentialists, some of them constructionists, some of them neither. Feminism is an umbrella term for a whole bunch of different thought processes on how best to combat sexism and misogyny. Some people think that men and women are essentially the same, but culture has "shaped" us, and we should work to eliminate the differences, but others think that men and women are really different, and we should celebrate these differences.
As far as the "natural characteristics of their biology," well, since we have people that are physically male as far as their bodies are concerned, and transition into female bodies, we have a lot of information on the differences between male and female biology. These differences have been empirically studied. They include, psychologically: Intenser experiences of emotions, increased sense of smell, easier to cry, etc. Unfortunately for you, they did not include the sudden elimination of the ability to do mathematics or someone's personal preferences in gender specific activities.
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On December 06 2012 02:35 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:32 mortonm wrote:On December 06 2012 02:08 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again. Yes, exactly my point. Sex and gender always have been synonyms. The attempt to redefine gender as something different is very recent and motivated by political rather than scientific reasons. Can you please tell me what "explicit differentiation" means? Because you've just indicated that you don't know. The AMA has maintained a clear difference between sex and gender for decades, and they actually stipulate that sex and gender are not synonyms.
This is correct
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Could someone please explain what gender is, my mother tongue has one word for sex and gender. I tried looking it up at Wikipedia, but their definition was vague.
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On December 06 2012 02:38 ScandiNAVIan wrote:
Could someone please explain what gender is, my mother tongue has one word for sex and gender. I tried looking it up at Wikipedia, but their definition was vague.
To put it simply, sex refers to one's physical sex, while gender refers to how one's brain expects the physical sex of the body to be. The problem is when the two don't match as one's subconscious isn't capable of abandoning that expectation.
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On December 06 2012 02:35 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:32 mortonm wrote:On December 06 2012 02:08 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again. Yes, exactly my point. Sex and gender always have been synonyms. The attempt to redefine gender as something different is very recent and motivated by political rather than scientific reasons. Can you please tell me what "explicit differentiation" means? Because you've just indicated that you don't know. The AMA has maintained a clear difference between sex and gender for decades, and they actually stipulate that sex and gender are not synonyms.
First you say years, now you say decades. Which is it?
The reason they have to stipulate such a thing is because it is recently fabricated nonsense. If the words meant different things people would have been using them differently without the need of "style guidelines" telling them to.
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On December 06 2012 02:42 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:35 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 02:32 mortonm wrote:On December 06 2012 02:08 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again. Yes, exactly my point. Sex and gender always have been synonyms. The attempt to redefine gender as something different is very recent and motivated by political rather than scientific reasons. Can you please tell me what "explicit differentiation" means? Because you've just indicated that you don't know. The AMA has maintained a clear difference between sex and gender for decades, and they actually stipulate that sex and gender are not synonyms. First you say years, now you say decades. Which is it? The reason they have to stipulate such a thing is because it is recently fabricated nonsense. If the words meant different things people would have been using them differently without the need of "style guidelines" telling them to.
This is an actual example of begging the question. Look, people don't use them differently because most people never experience the separation. This is your cissexual privilege.
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On December 06 2012 02:38 ScandiNAVIan wrote:
Could someone please explain what gender is, my mother tongue has one word for sex and gender. I tried looking it up at Wikipedia, but their definition was vague.
Gender and sex are synonyms. They mean exactly the same thing.
In very recent modern history there has been a tendency to try and diminish genetic factors and pretend everything is nurture rather than nature. For this reason feminists began claiming that "gender" is somehow different from sex, to try and divorce female behaviours from outward female appearance. They then claim the reason women tend to behave a certain way is not due to inherent differences, but because they have been forced into a "gender" role.
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On December 06 2012 02:27 mortonm wrote:
There is really no scientific evidence for redefining gender as something different from sex. Separating the two is not a scientific concept at all, it is a political one.
Yes, and I'm sure your personal belief that the "feminist agenda" has created this distinction ex-nihilo has no effect on your objective assessment of the scientific literature on the subject.
On December 06 2012 02:27 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:03 shinosai wrote:
The inability for scientists to predict the gender of intersex patients Gender and sex are the same thing. Intersex people are intergender.
They don't seem to think so. They seem to feel like they want to be on one side or the other. And it's unpredictable which side they want to choose.
On December 06 2012 02:27 mortonm wrote:
This is called the "begging the question" fallacy. You assume gender is something different as part of your proof that gender is something different.
You can rephrase the use of "gender" as "which sex the person mentally feels comfortable with" if you like; the statement is no less true. Whether you want to call it "gender" or some other word, there is a mental state of being male/female.
On December 06 2012 02:27 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:03 shinosai wrote:
the differing brain structures between trans female and males In what way do you think this separates sex and gender? If anything it demonstrates the exact opposite. If someone has to have a physically different brain makeup from males to be a transsexual they do not fall into the male sex/gender category.
Now you're redefining sex as the way gender is defined: a mental state rather than a physical one.
On December 06 2012 02:27 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:03 shinosai wrote:
This is not motivated by feminist ideology The claim that sex and gender are different comes directly from feminist ideology. Feminists needed to explain why, although they claim women and men are equivalent, women prefer social fields of study over mechanical ones, as well as different toys, etc. They invented the idea that "gender" is different, so they could claim that women are just adopting the "gender" they have been forced into rather than exhibiting natural characteristics of their biology. Ideological disputes between feminists and transgenders are really irrelevant. This is where the attempt to redefine gender comes from, and it is frankly quite silly.
It doesn't matter where an idea "comes from"; what matters is whether it is right. Whether there is evidence for it. The people who actually study this stuff (ie: not some guy on a forum) have determined that gender (mental state) and sex (physical state) are separate concepts and can be dysphoric (ie: not in agreement).
Do you have actual research backing up your claim? And no, I don't mean making a few statements on a forum. I mean actual scientific research to show that physical state and mental state are always in alignment, then your position has no foundation other than your personal distaste for your conception of feminism and the fact that you find it "quite silly".
On December 06 2012 02:32 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:08 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again. Yes, exactly my point. Sex and gender always have been synonyms. The attempt to redefine gender as something different is very recent and motivated by political rather than scientific reasons.
Yes, and people used to think that "heat" was an element like oxygen or nitrogen. Science moves on.
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On December 06 2012 02:42 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:35 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 02:32 mortonm wrote:On December 06 2012 02:08 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again. Yes, exactly my point. Sex and gender always have been synonyms. The attempt to redefine gender as something different is very recent and motivated by political rather than scientific reasons. Can you please tell me what "explicit differentiation" means? Because you've just indicated that you don't know. The AMA has maintained a clear difference between sex and gender for decades, and they actually stipulate that sex and gender are not synonyms. First you say years, now you say decades. Which is it?
Decades are made of years.
On December 06 2012 02:42 mortonm wrote:
The reason they have to stipulate such a thing is because it is recently fabricated nonsense. If the words meant different things people would have been using them differently without the need of "style guidelines" telling them to.
We choose what words mean based on the need for language. For a long time, we didn't need a word for "mental sexual state" as opposed to "physical sexual state", because for a long time we didn't know that these were two different things. Now we do. Just as once upon a time, we didn't need a word for "firearm"; once guns came into being, we needed a word to describe them.
We simply took an existing word and gave it a distinct meaning once we realized that a distinction needed to be made. If you have a problem with this happening, if you think a new word should have been invented rather than re-purposing an old one... I don't care. That's how the scientific literature defines them now, and that is how they are.
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On December 06 2012 02:42 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:35 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 02:32 mortonm wrote:On December 06 2012 02:08 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again. Yes, exactly my point. Sex and gender always have been synonyms. The attempt to redefine gender as something different is very recent and motivated by political rather than scientific reasons. Can you please tell me what "explicit differentiation" means? Because you've just indicated that you don't know. The AMA has maintained a clear difference between sex and gender for decades, and they actually stipulate that sex and gender are not synonyms. First you say years, now you say decades. Which is it? The reason they have to stipulate such a thing is because it is recently fabricated nonsense. If the words meant different things people would have been using them differently without the need of "style guidelines" telling them to.
See, I knew you knew what a synonym really was!
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On December 06 2012 02:46 NicolBolas wrote:
You can rephrase the use of "gender" as "which sex the person mentally feels comfortable with" if you like; the statement is no less true. Whether you want to call it "gender" or some other word, there is a mental state of being male/female.
Perhaps we should invent a new word then, for what species someone "feels comfortable with"? Then furries could claim to be the species they identify with.
Just because some men want to be women and vice versa doesn't require redefinition of gender.
Science moved on from such a thing due to evidence, not political wrangling.
On the contrary there is no valid scientific evidence for separating gender from sex. It's purely political.
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On December 06 2012 02:52 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:46 NicolBolas wrote:
You can rephrase the use of "gender" as "which sex the person mentally feels comfortable with" if you like; the statement is no less true. Whether you want to call it "gender" or some other word, there is a mental state of being male/female. Perhaps we should invent a new word then, for what species someone "feels comfortable with"? Then furries could claim to be the species they identify with. Just because some men want to be women and vice versa doesn't require redefinition of gender. Science moved on from such a thing due to evidence, not political wrangling. On the contrary there is no valid scientific evidence for separating gender from sex. It's purely political.
I know it's probably a waste of time, but I'm going to give it one last try. Question: What sort of scientific evidence would convince you that they were separate? You see, I have a gut feeling here that there is no possible scientific evidence that could ever convince you of this fact, for you would rationalize it all away like you have done for the evidence already presented. And if that's the case, then there's no real point in discussing this any further with you. But maybe there is something that can convince you. So, if there is, what is it?
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On December 06 2012 02:48 NicolBolas wrote:
Decades are made of years.
Decades are also made of seconds, but saying something has been a certain way for seconds implies a briefer period of time than saying decades.
On December 06 2012 02:48 NicolBolas wrote:
We choose what words mean based on the need for language. For a long time, we didn't need a word for "mental sexual state" as opposed to "physical sexual state", because for a long time we didn't know that these were two different things. Now we do. Just as once upon a time, we didn't need a word for "firearm"; once guns came into being, we needed a word to describe them.
We simply took an existing word and gave it a distinct meaning once we realized that a distinction needed to be made. If you have a problem with this happening, if you think a new word should have been invented rather than re-purposing an old one... I don't care. That's how the scientific literature defines them now, and that is how they are.
So do we need a new word for "mental species state" as opposed to "physical species state"? Why or why not?
We seem to be arguing past each other here. Now you concede that people are attempting to redefine gender, but you aren't providing any scientific basis for such a definition. As I have said this redefinition is purely political.
On December 06 2012 02:48 farvacola wrote:
See, I knew you knew what a synonym really was!
Are you claiming years and decades are synonyms? They aren't.
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On December 06 2012 01:01 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 00:49 FrankWalls wrote:
what are the definitions of a disorder? that's something that i think is of utmost importance to the topic honestly. i mean i dont have much problem with transsexuals, but it seems to me that having something where you need to take hormones, often surgery, and other such provisions to be happy seems pretty.. disorderly. But is it a disorder of the mind, or of the body? Just as one could argue that the body is the basis, one could just as easily argue that the mind is the basis, and in that case it becomes a physical handicap instead of a mental disorder.
i dont know which it is because im no expert, but to me a disorder would be a disorder
and to throw in my lack of expertise 2 cents, i'd say it's probably a disorder of the mind, in cases like this the body usually is functioning pretty standardly, but it's the mind that is having trouble with the whole gender thing. i hate to equate the two but to me it'd be like saying someone with body dimorphic disorder actually had a physical handicap because he didnt happen to have the ideal body that he had.
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