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On December 06 2012 03:22 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:19 TheToaster wrote:
The human soul has no gender. Transgenders that argue they need to fulfill some sort of gaping hole in their self persona are completely ignorant of this fact. Changing your outward appearance has nothing to do with your true inner self. That activity simply feeds cultural norms which define gender based on societal practices. For example when a woman dresses in almost unclad attire to seem more sexually attractive. This isn't something a man would do, because dressing in unclad attire would be weird for a man. In that sense, transgenders are actually inhibiting themselves by acting like these cultural norms actually define someone's gender. When in fact gender is really an outward illusion. sometimes i feel like the transgender thing is partially a social reaction rather than a natural reaction that would happen normally in someone's head, but i dont know.
When you are talking about consciousness, identity formation, psychosexual stuff, etc. there is NO valid distinction between "social" and "natural" so the point is moot
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On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender?
i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive
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On December 06 2012 03:24 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:22 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:19 TheToaster wrote:
The human soul has no gender. Transgenders that argue they need to fulfill some sort of gaping hole in their self persona are completely ignorant of this fact. Changing your outward appearance has nothing to do with your true inner self. That activity simply feeds cultural norms which define gender based on societal practices. For example when a woman dresses in almost unclad attire to seem more sexually attractive. This isn't something a man would do, because dressing in unclad attire would be weird for a man. In that sense, transgenders are actually inhibiting themselves by acting like these cultural norms actually define someone's gender. When in fact gender is really an outward illusion. sometimes i feel like the transgender thing is partially a social reaction rather than a natural reaction that would happen normally in someone's head, but i dont know. When you are talking about consciousness, identity formation, psychosexual stuff, etc. there is NO valid distinction between "social" and "natural" so the point is moot
i understand what youre saying, i worded it poorly. i just mean that i think societal influences are a big part of this sort of thing
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On December 06 2012 00:42 Lynda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. There have also been cases where trans parents' children looked up to their trans parent(s) and said that they are proud of their parent(s) for having the courage to become themselves, it inspires them to be brave and it also made them more open-minded. Bullying and prejudice happen in the case of having homosexual parents too. And just who is to judge that a trans person cannot be a good parent, or by them merely existing, their kid would not develop well. You could say the same then about homosexual parents regarding identity problems, or about single parents, and regarding getting fucked up, I think most would take having a loving and caring MtF mother/second mother over an alcoholic, abusive father. But then, they wouldn't have the perspective of the latter case to compare it to, but as they'd grow older they'd understand.
But not everyone is as liberal as you are, some people see gender as sacrosanct.
Being trans was a mental disorder up until a while ago, how would you feel about a bi polar adult adopting a kid?
Straight up: people see fucking with your gender as unnatural and creepy, it's not a view that can be objectively justified (to the same degree that racism can, for example) but the prejudice exists and exists for these reasons.
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On December 06 2012 01:46 shinosai wrote:
Secondly, many surgeons will opt to give you a non-sensate vagina because creating a sensate vagina is far more difficult. Now, I don't know about you, but I like being able to have orgasms. So, even though public healthcare does cover SRS surgery, it is not a very good deal for the transsexual.
I guess this is where the healthcare debate stops for me. People struggle to get medicated for the most basic of health conditions yet someone is upset about a "non-sensate" vagina. Well... use your anus or something? Who wants to pay for this?..
I'm not even talking AIDS or cancer patients, with many insurance companies you need a prior authorization to buy something as stupid and essential as a course of vancomycin for under 2000$. People are happy to get ANY help at that point, and someone is complaining about artificial vaginas here. Hell no, please keep it "cosmetic". Puts all that suffering and identity crisis into perspective.
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On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive
No one would "choose" to live as a transsexual person for the rest of their life for attention (otherwise, ironically, they'd feel gender dysphoria by transitioning). If they only preferred the lifestyle of another gender, they could crossdress in private / in public in safety within the company of accepting friends, and do activities more generally considered to be for the other gender. They wouldn't risk their health with hormones and surgeries, they wouldn't want to get rid of body parts that they don't hate, they wouldn't risk losing all their family, friends, job and receive so much discrimination everywhere.
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On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive
The attention you get for being transgender is 99% negative. Anyone that suggests that there are "advantages" to being transgender simply must be speaking from a position of privilege, because being transgender is one of the worst possible minorities you could ever choose to be. The quality of your life is so much worse and chances of suicide are literally higher than any other minority.
The feeling of uniqueness? I think there's easier ways to do that than than spending up to $50,000 (many times way more) to alter your body and risking serious health consequences.
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On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED.
my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy?
I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs.
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On December 06 2012 03:12 NicolBolas wrote:
Why does it matter what it is called? What matters is that there is a distinction between "mental sexual state" and "physical sexual state".
As my comparison to furries alluded, the idea that there even is such a thing as a "mental sexual state" is as ridiculous as claiming there is a "mental species state".
Actually there is already a word for it: imagination.
On December 06 2012 03:12 NicolBolas wrote:
Your problem is that your anti-feminist nonsense is drowning out your reasoning. You're so focused on the language used that you don't care about the meaning behind that language. Words are words; arbitrary labels we put onto concepts that allow is to communicate more effectively. What matters is the concepts themselves. And the concept of a mental sexual state exists which is separate from the concept of a physical sexual state.
We have decided to call this concept "gender". If you have a problem with that... tough. That's what it's called now. If you think that the reasons we call it "gender" are dubious or informed by politics... tough. It needs a word, and that's the word we picked.
Arguing about what word to use for the concept is purely semantic and unproductive.
If you needed a word for such a thing why not create a new one instead of hijacking an existing word which is synonymous to sex?
The problem with redefining an existing word is that now people act smug and superior when they "correct" someone who uses the word properly, the same way it has been used for generations.
It feeds into many people's desire to feel superior to others, so they go around "correcting" people who haven't adopted this utterly nonsense modern redefinition.
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I would be very interested to see some poll results for these questions:
Does transgenderism make you feel uncomfortable? Yes? A little? No?
Do you think transgendered people deserve the right to adopt? Yes? No?
Does anybody have the right to identify with any gender at any time? Yes? Only once? No?
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On December 06 2012 03:27 nolook wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 01:46 shinosai wrote:
Secondly, many surgeons will opt to give you a non-sensate vagina because creating a sensate vagina is far more difficult. Now, I don't know about you, but I like being able to have orgasms. So, even though public healthcare does cover SRS surgery, it is not a very good deal for the transsexual. I guess this is where the healthcare debate stops for me. People struggle to get medicated for the most basic of health conditions yet someone is upset about a "non-sensate" vagina. Well... use your anus or something? Who wants to pay for this?.. I'm not even talking AIDS or cancer patients, with many insurance companies you need a prior authorization to buy something as stupid and essential as a course of vancomycin for under 2000$. People are happy to get ANY help at that point, and someone is complaining about artificial vaginas here. Hell no, please keep it "cosmetic". Puts all that suffering and identity crisis into perspective.
So you don't think your quality of life would be worse if you lost sensation in your penis? Just keeping things in perspective here.
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keep in mind that we're at a weird moment right now where transgenderism is becoming a social issue (because now surgically possible) but medical science is still primitive enough that it's expensive. Sure, there's some questions about cost now, but it's only going to get cheaper and more effective to do, so why not?
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On December 06 2012 03:28 mortonm wrote:
If you needed a word for such a thing why not create a new one instead of hijacking an existing word which is synonymous to sex?
No. historically, gender primarily referred to grammar. It's never really been synonymous with sex.
edit: If I walked into a Latin class and said, "what sex is this noun?" people would look at me strange. There is no history of synonymity.
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On December 06 2012 02:27 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:03 shinosai wrote:
This is not motivated by feminist ideology The claim that sex and gender are different comes directly from feminist ideology. Feminists needed to explain why, although they claim women and men are equivalent, women prefer social fields of study over mechanical ones, as well as different toys, etc. They invented the idea that "gender" is different, so they could claim that women are just adopting the "gender" they have been forced into rather than exhibiting natural characteristics of their biology. Ideological disputes between feminists and transgenders are really irrelevant. This is where the attempt to redefine gender comes from, and it is frankly quite silly.
Just because feminists have embraced the distinction between sex and gender, does not imply that there is any relation to the transgender issues at hand. Feminist ideology generally follows gender constructionist views that gender is purely socially constructed; however, this is incompatible with the existence of transgender individuals who desire hormone therapy and SRS since these imply a physical basis for gender. On top of this, many feminists (particularly second wave feminists and radfems) are blatantly transphobic, so the notion that transsexuals have anything to do with the feminist redefinition of gender is pretty laughable.
On December 06 2012 02:32 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:08 farvacola wrote:On December 06 2012 01:59 mortonm wrote:
Gender and sex are the same thing. They are used interchangeably in scientific literature.
The attempt to redefine gender as something separate from sex is very recent, and motivated by feminist ideology rather than any scientific or logical basis. The AMA style guide has contained an explicit differentiation between sex and gender for many years now, try again. Yes, exactly my point. Sex and gender always have been synonyms. The attempt to redefine gender as something different is very recent and motivated by political rather than scientific reasons.
Or perhaps it's motivated by a better understanding of sex and gender.
On December 06 2012 02:59 mortonm wrote:
So do we need a new word for "mental species state" as opposed to "physical species state"? Why or why not?
We seem to be arguing past each other here. Now you concede that people are attempting to redefine gender, but you aren't providing any scientific basis for such a definition. As I have said this redefinition is purely political.
What exactly is your point here? Whether a given instance of aneurotypicality is a "disorder" or not is always going to be purely subjective. For example, Asperger's represents an atypical mental condition, but on what grounds could you clearly delineate whether it's a disorder or not?
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On December 06 2012 03:27 nolook wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 01:46 shinosai wrote:
Secondly, many surgeons will opt to give you a non-sensate vagina because creating a sensate vagina is far more difficult. Now, I don't know about you, but I like being able to have orgasms. So, even though public healthcare does cover SRS surgery, it is not a very good deal for the transsexual. I guess this is where the healthcare debate stops for me. People struggle to get medicated for the most basic of health conditions yet someone is upset about a "non-sensate" vagina. Well... use your anus or something? Who wants to pay for this?.. I'm not even talking AIDS or cancer patients, with many insurance companies you need a prior authorization to buy something as stupid and essential as a course of vancomycin for under 2000$. People are happy to get ANY help at that point, and someone is complaining about artificial vaginas here. Hell no, please keep it "cosmetic". Puts all that suffering and identity crisis into perspective.
Yeah but I mean, you don't want your penis anymore and you expect to just "purchase" a fully functional organ? I think it's a bit of a ridiculous expectation.
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On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs.
How do you know this? I'm going to ask for a source here.
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On December 06 2012 03:28 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:12 NicolBolas wrote:
Why does it matter what it is called? What matters is that there is a distinction between "mental sexual state" and "physical sexual state". As my comparison to furries alluded, the idea that there even is such a thing as a "mental sexual state" is as ridiculous as claiming there is a "mental species state". Actually there is already a word for it: imagination.
Do you deny that it's possible for someone to mentally feel like a member of a different species? And if there happen to be enough people who have that mental condition, wouldn't it make sense to have a name for it?
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On December 06 2012 03:28 Lynda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive No one would "choose" to live as a transsexual person for the rest of their life for attention (otherwise, ironically, they'd feel gender dysphoria by transitioning). If they only preferred the lifestyle of another gender, they could crossdress in private / in public in safety within the company of accepting friends, and do activities more generally considered to be for the other gender. They wouldn't risk their health with hormones and surgeries, they wouldn't want to get rid of body parts that they don't hate, they wouldn't risk losing all their family, friends, job and receive so much discrimination everywhere.
it's not like they always think rationally about it. maybe they had a tough life, maybe they feel excluded, maybe they want to be looked at, and as far as i know, plenty of crossdressers identify as transgender. i think theres gray area on that. not all transgenders have to get the surgery. i think you vastly underestimate the lengths that someone would go just for seemingly silly reasons
On December 06 2012 03:28 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive The attention you get for being transgender is 99% negative. Anyone that suggests that there are "advantages" to being transgender simply must be speaking from a position of privilege, because being transgender is one of the worst possible minorities you could ever choose to be. The quality of your life is so much worse and chances of suicide are literally higher than any other minority. The feeling of uniqueness? I think there's easier ways to do that than than spending up to $50,000 (many times way more) to alter your body and risking serious health consequences.
there is plenty of support for transgenders online and in their communities, and for a lot of people, negative attention is just fine for them. just look at plenty of celebrities that do stupid shit to try to stay relevant. like i said, this is probably a tiny minority of transgenders, but people are out there that would choose to do this stuff. i would be a lot of money on it
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On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs.
Because usually the transgender person does not consider their mind to be the problem. This really seems to be more about your comfort than the comfort of the transgender person. It's really egocentric. Look, maybe sex and gender did get mixed up by some chemical imbalance, but the transgender person does not want to change who they are, anymore than you want to change who you are.
Yes, some post-op regret the decision. However, it has been reported that the surgery does reduce gender dysphoria. This is not up for debate. However, surgery does NOT resolve other problems of transsexuals, and significant post-operative care and psychotherapy is often recommended because of this. Transsexuals not only have a desire to inhabit a body of the opposite sex, but they also have to accept themselves for who they are, and deal with depression, etc. Surgery has never been stated to be a cure all, and this is why we have regulations on who can have surgery.
You don't just get to say you are transsexual, and the first thing you do is get surgery. No, first you have to be living as a female full time for at least one year, and convince a medical professional that your genitalia is causing you extreme stress. Post-op people who regret the operation USUALLY exhibit many red flags, such as: During hormone therapy, changing their minds and stopping hormone therapy. Being "unsure" if they are actually transsexual. Or pursuing the operation for the wrong reasons (a sexual fetish). Or they believe that the operation will magically fix their self image problems.
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On December 06 2012 03:35 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:28 Lynda wrote:On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive No one would "choose" to live as a transsexual person for the rest of their life for attention (otherwise, ironically, they'd feel gender dysphoria by transitioning). If they only preferred the lifestyle of another gender, they could crossdress in private / in public in safety within the company of accepting friends, and do activities more generally considered to be for the other gender. They wouldn't risk their health with hormones and surgeries, they wouldn't want to get rid of body parts that they don't hate, they wouldn't risk losing all their family, friends, job and receive so much discrimination everywhere. it's not like they always think rationally about it. maybe they had a tough life, maybe they feel excluded, maybe they want to be looked at, and as far as i know, plenty of crossdressers identify as transgender. i think theres gray area on that. not all transgenders have to get the surgery. i think you vastly underestimate the lengths that someone would go just for seemingly silly reasons
transgender =/= transsexual. transgender is an umbrella term for transsexual, genderqueer, bigender, agender, genderfluid, etc. people as well as usually crossdressers and drag queens get lumped in
out of these, only transsexual people would transition to the opposite sex
crossdressers identifying as transgender doesn't mean they identify as transsexual unless they specifically state that they identify as transsexual or are willing to / have already begun/finished transition
non-transsexual transgender people have it arguably insanely better than transsexual people
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EPT
