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On December 06 2012 03:35 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:28 Lynda wrote:On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive No one would "choose" to live as a transsexual person for the rest of their life for attention (otherwise, ironically, they'd feel gender dysphoria by transitioning). If they only preferred the lifestyle of another gender, they could crossdress in private / in public in safety within the company of accepting friends, and do activities more generally considered to be for the other gender. They wouldn't risk their health with hormones and surgeries, they wouldn't want to get rid of body parts that they don't hate, they wouldn't risk losing all their family, friends, job and receive so much discrimination everywhere. it's not like they always think rationally about it. maybe they had a tough life, maybe they feel excluded, maybe they want to be looked at, and as far as i know, plenty of crossdressers identify as transgender. i think theres gray area on that. not all transgenders have to get the surgery. i think you vastly underestimate the lengths that someone would go just for seemingly silly reasons Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:28 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive The attention you get for being transgender is 99% negative. Anyone that suggests that there are "advantages" to being transgender simply must be speaking from a position of privilege, because being transgender is one of the worst possible minorities you could ever choose to be. The quality of your life is so much worse and chances of suicide are literally higher than any other minority. The feeling of uniqueness? I think there's easier ways to do that than than spending up to $50,000 (many times way more) to alter your body and risking serious health consequences. there is plenty of support for transgenders online and in their communities, and for a lot of people, negative attention is just fine for them. just look at plenty of celebrities that do stupid shit to try to stay relevant. like i said, this is probably a tiny minority of transgenders, but people are out there that would choose to do this stuff. i would be a lot of money on it
I have watched all four seasons of Rupaul's Drag Race and only one of those drag queens was transgender (was Willum transgender? that would make 2). Unless you can come up with a larger sample to back up your claim, I'm going to say most drag queens identify as male and there is a distinct difference between a performer and a transgender person.
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On December 06 2012 03:31 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:28 mortonm wrote:
If you needed a word for such a thing why not create a new one instead of hijacking an existing word which is synonymous to sex? No. historically, gender primarily referred to grammar. It's never really been synonymous with sex. edit: If I walked into a Latin class and said, "what sex is this noun?" people would look at me strange. There is no history of synonymity.
Actually you are wrong. This is part of the mythos invented by feminists.
Sometimes they will cite a paper where a man argues that gender should be used grammatically, but his paper does not reflect the historical usage of the word.
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On December 06 2012 03:41 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:31 sam!zdat wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 mortonm wrote:
If you needed a word for such a thing why not create a new one instead of hijacking an existing word which is synonymous to sex? No. historically, gender primarily referred to grammar. It's never really been synonymous with sex. edit: If I walked into a Latin class and said, "what sex is this noun?" people would look at me strange. There is no history of synonymity. Actually you are wrong. This is part of the mythos invented by feminists.Sometimes they will cite a paper where a man argues that gender should be used grammatically, but his paper does not reflect the historical usage of the word.
Source?
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On December 06 2012 03:37 Lynda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:35 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 Lynda wrote:On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:On December 05 2012 21:33 Fulla wrote:
I only have one question. Will this mean transgender people can start adopting children?
If so what are peoples thoughts on this? Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive No one would "choose" to live as a transsexual person for the rest of their life for attention (otherwise, ironically, they'd feel gender dysphoria by transitioning). If they only preferred the lifestyle of another gender, they could crossdress in private / in public in safety within the company of accepting friends, and do activities more generally considered to be for the other gender. They wouldn't risk their health with hormones and surgeries, they wouldn't want to get rid of body parts that they don't hate, they wouldn't risk losing all their family, friends, job and receive so much discrimination everywhere. it's not like they always think rationally about it. maybe they had a tough life, maybe they feel excluded, maybe they want to be looked at, and as far as i know, plenty of crossdressers identify as transgender. i think theres gray area on that. not all transgenders have to get the surgery. i think you vastly underestimate the lengths that someone would go just for seemingly silly reasons transgender =/= transsexual. transgender is an umbrella term for transsexual, genderqueer, bigender, agender, genderfluid, etc. people as well as usually crossdressers and drag queens get lumped in out of these, only transsexual people would transition to the opposite sex crossdressers identifying as transgender doesn't mean they identify as transsexual unless they specifically state that they identify as transsexual or are willing to / have already begun/finished transition non-transsexual transgender people have it arguably insanely better than transsexual people
well thats what i mean. i mean that's what the topic of the thread is about right?
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On December 06 2012 03:32 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs. How do you know this? I'm going to ask for a source here.
I don't know how conclusive this is or whether you'll accept it as a source, but after a quick google search:
http://www.sexchangeregret.com/wwwsexchangeregretcom
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth
apparently the majority feel alright about their operations, but some definitely don't.
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On December 06 2012 03:34 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:28 mortonm wrote:On December 06 2012 03:12 NicolBolas wrote:
Why does it matter what it is called? What matters is that there is a distinction between "mental sexual state" and "physical sexual state". As my comparison to furries alluded, the idea that there even is such a thing as a "mental sexual state" is as ridiculous as claiming there is a "mental species state". Actually there is already a word for it: imagination. Do you deny that it's possible for someone to mentally feel like a member of a different species? And if there happen to be enough people who have that mental condition, wouldn't it make sense to have a name for it?
You can invent whatever words you want, for whatever reason you want. If it catches in in common speech it might even make it into a dictionary.
I don't like when people try to redefine an existing word, contrary to how it is used in speech, and then go around smugly "correcting" people who use the word properly (the same way it always has been).
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On December 06 2012 03:42 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:37 Lynda wrote:On December 06 2012 03:35 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 Lynda wrote:On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:On December 05 2012 22:41 Zealos wrote:
[quote]
Hopefully, and I would have no problem whatsoever. Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice? I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it. Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive No one would "choose" to live as a transsexual person for the rest of their life for attention (otherwise, ironically, they'd feel gender dysphoria by transitioning). If they only preferred the lifestyle of another gender, they could crossdress in private / in public in safety within the company of accepting friends, and do activities more generally considered to be for the other gender. They wouldn't risk their health with hormones and surgeries, they wouldn't want to get rid of body parts that they don't hate, they wouldn't risk losing all their family, friends, job and receive so much discrimination everywhere. it's not like they always think rationally about it. maybe they had a tough life, maybe they feel excluded, maybe they want to be looked at, and as far as i know, plenty of crossdressers identify as transgender. i think theres gray area on that. not all transgenders have to get the surgery. i think you vastly underestimate the lengths that someone would go just for seemingly silly reasons transgender =/= transsexual. transgender is an umbrella term for transsexual, genderqueer, bigender, agender, genderfluid, etc. people as well as usually crossdressers and drag queens get lumped in out of these, only transsexual people would transition to the opposite sex crossdressers identifying as transgender doesn't mean they identify as transsexual unless they specifically state that they identify as transsexual or are willing to / have already begun/finished transition non-transsexual transgender people have it arguably insanely better than transsexual people well thats what i mean. i mean that's what the topic of the thread is about right?
this thread is more about specifically transsexual people, because gender identity disorder's definition included identifying as the opposite sex, which doesn't fit non-transsexual transgender people
it's just that the thread's title has transgender and not transsexual in it
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On December 06 2012 03:41 mortonm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:31 sam!zdat wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 mortonm wrote:
If you needed a word for such a thing why not create a new one instead of hijacking an existing word which is synonymous to sex? No. historically, gender primarily referred to grammar. It's never really been synonymous with sex. edit: If I walked into a Latin class and said, "what sex is this noun?" people would look at me strange. There is no history of synonymity. Actually you are wrong. This is part of the mythos invented by feminists. Sometimes they will cite a paper where a man argues that gender should be used grammatically, but his paper does not reflect the historical usage of the word.
oh?
So when I say:
"le mot << la table >> est feminin"
I am saying that the word is of the female sex?
edit: for bonus points, can you give me the etymology of english word "gender"?
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On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:
I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs.
"Many"?
First of all, transitioning involves MUCH more than sex reassignment surgery. Most trans people need to undergo years of hormone replacement therapy before undergoing surgery, and that will have a profound and virtually irreversible effect on your body.
Second of all, the dissatisfaction rate for transition is ridiculously low.
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On December 06 2012 03:35 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs. Because usually the transgender person does not consider their mind to be the problem. This really seems to be more about your comfort than the comfort of the transgender person. It's really egocentric. Look, maybe sex and gender did get mixed up by some chemical imbalance, but the transgender person does not want to change who they are, anymore than you want to change who you are. Yes, some post-op regret the decision. However, it has been reported that the surgery does reduce gender dysphoria. This is not up for debate. However, surgery does NOT resolve other problems of transsexuals, and significant post-operative care and psychotherapy is often recommended because of this. Transsexuals not only have a desire to inhabit a body of the opposite sex, but they also have to accept themselves for who they are, and deal with depression, etc. Surgery has never been stated to be a cure all, and this is why we have regulations on who can have surgery. You don't just get to say you are transsexual, and the first thing you do is get surgery. No, first you have to be living as a female full time for at least one year, and convince a medical professional that your genitalia is causing you extreme stress. Post-op people who regret the operation USUALLY exhibit many red flags, such as: During hormone therapy, changing their minds and stopping hormone therapy. Being "unsure" if they are actually transsexual. Or pursuing the operation for the wrong reasons (a sexual fetish). Or they believe that the operation will magically fix their self image problems.
well, this may sound harsh, but what they themselves consider to be the problem is not really all that important int he discussion of what the problem really is. I might not want to admit that depression is my problem (for example), but that doesn't mean it isn't my problem. and receiving treatment is not "changing who you are". and another thing, I'm not advocating one way or another. I don't know enough about the subject to have a concrete opinion about it, that's why I'm asking questions.
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On December 06 2012 03:44 Lynda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:42 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:37 Lynda wrote:On December 06 2012 03:35 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 Lynda wrote:On December 06 2012 03:24 FrankWalls wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:20 HoLe wrote:On December 06 2012 00:38 Blazinghand wrote:On December 06 2012 00:31 HoLe wrote:
[quote]
Really, you don't think kids would end up kinda fucked? Identity problems? Problems that are exclusive to the fact that they have a transgendered parent? Bullying? Prejudice?
I think it's on a different magnitude than homosexual parenthood. It sounds selfish in some way - I guess you could interpret wanting to have a baby at all (as anyone) as selfish, but something seems a little weird here. Sounds like a blatant disregard for the future well-being and of a child given all the stigma and all the completely reasonable groundwork for it.
Call me old fashioned. Something I ask people to do when they make the "bullying" argument about adoptions is to replace "gay" or "trans" with "black". If you think about it your arguments do not stand up because they i fringe on people's rights. Yeah but being black isn't voluntary So, tell me, would YOU ever volunteer to be a transgender person? If not, what makes you think any person on this earth would be so delusional as to actually want to be transgender? i hate to be 'that guy', but there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to do this. for attention, a feeling of uniqueness, maybe someone just really really would prefer the lifestyle that another gender has. are all transgender people like this? i really doubt it, but to say there's no reason to voluntarily do this is very naive No one would "choose" to live as a transsexual person for the rest of their life for attention (otherwise, ironically, they'd feel gender dysphoria by transitioning). If they only preferred the lifestyle of another gender, they could crossdress in private / in public in safety within the company of accepting friends, and do activities more generally considered to be for the other gender. They wouldn't risk their health with hormones and surgeries, they wouldn't want to get rid of body parts that they don't hate, they wouldn't risk losing all their family, friends, job and receive so much discrimination everywhere. it's not like they always think rationally about it. maybe they had a tough life, maybe they feel excluded, maybe they want to be looked at, and as far as i know, plenty of crossdressers identify as transgender. i think theres gray area on that. not all transgenders have to get the surgery. i think you vastly underestimate the lengths that someone would go just for seemingly silly reasons transgender =/= transsexual. transgender is an umbrella term for transsexual, genderqueer, bigender, agender, genderfluid, etc. people as well as usually crossdressers and drag queens get lumped in out of these, only transsexual people would transition to the opposite sex crossdressers identifying as transgender doesn't mean they identify as transsexual unless they specifically state that they identify as transsexual or are willing to / have already begun/finished transition non-transsexual transgender people have it arguably insanely better than transsexual people well thats what i mean. i mean that's what the topic of the thread is about right? this thread is more about specifically transsexual people, because gender identity disorder's definition included identifying as the opposite sex, which doesn't fit non-transsexual transgender people it's just that the thread's title has transgender and not transsexual in it
ah, i was misled.
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Just because feminists have embraced the distinction between sex and gender, does not imply that there is any relation to the transgender issues at hand. Feminist ideology generally follows gender constructionist views that gender is purely socially constructed; however, this is incompatible with the existence of transgender individuals who desire hormone therapy and SRS since these imply a physical basis for gender. On top of this, many feminists (particularly second wave feminists and radfems) are blatantly transphobic, so the notion that transsexuals have anything to do with the feminist redefinition of gender is pretty laughable.
This needs repeating. Excellent post, Sunprince. Anyone that takes the time to read "Whipping Girl" would know that the feminist agenda has nothing to do with the issue at hand here. Feminists are just being lumped together into this one giant group, when there is as much diversity in feminism as there is with gender expression. Second wave feminists and rad fems are highly gender constructionist, but much of contemporary feminism rejects gender constructionism.
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On December 06 2012 03:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:35 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs. Because usually the transgender person does not consider their mind to be the problem. This really seems to be more about your comfort than the comfort of the transgender person. It's really egocentric. Look, maybe sex and gender did get mixed up by some chemical imbalance, but the transgender person does not want to change who they are, anymore than you want to change who you are. Yes, some post-op regret the decision. However, it has been reported that the surgery does reduce gender dysphoria. This is not up for debate. However, surgery does NOT resolve other problems of transsexuals, and significant post-operative care and psychotherapy is often recommended because of this. Transsexuals not only have a desire to inhabit a body of the opposite sex, but they also have to accept themselves for who they are, and deal with depression, etc. Surgery has never been stated to be a cure all, and this is why we have regulations on who can have surgery. You don't just get to say you are transsexual, and the first thing you do is get surgery. No, first you have to be living as a female full time for at least one year, and convince a medical professional that your genitalia is causing you extreme stress. Post-op people who regret the operation USUALLY exhibit many red flags, such as: During hormone therapy, changing their minds and stopping hormone therapy. Being "unsure" if they are actually transsexual. Or pursuing the operation for the wrong reasons (a sexual fetish). Or they believe that the operation will magically fix their self image problems. well, this may sound harsh, but what they themselves consider to be the problem is not really all that important int he discussion of what the problem really is. I might not want to admit that depression is my problem (for example), but that doesn't mean it isn't my problem. and receiving treatment is not "changing who you are". and another thing, I'm not advocating one way or another. I don't know enough about the subject to have a concrete opinion about it, that's why I'm asking questions.
No, I really think you would be "changing who you are" because you identity has already formed around this gender.
You can't remove pieces of people's consciousness like legos, it doesn't work that way. Even if you could fix the problem in the mind, my bet is it would be much easier to fix it in the body.
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On December 06 2012 03:43 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:32 Klondikebar wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs. How do you know this? I'm going to ask for a source here. I don't know how conclusive this is or whether you'll accept it as a source, but after a quick google search: http://www.sexchangeregret.com/wwwsexchangeregretcomhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealthapparently the majority feel alright about their operations, but some definitely don't.
That first link is bunk. You can't blame me for not taking that seriously.
The second one is better but there's just as much speculation from critics as the article claims of proponents. Essentially both sides have thrown up their hands and said "we don't know!" ...which I would expect from an article in 2004.
Many transgender people have been thoroughly abused throughout their lives. They suffer from deep depression and anxiety. If they simply transition genders without any sort of therapy, I can imagine their mental health wouldn't improve the way it should.
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On December 06 2012 03:48 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:35 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs. Because usually the transgender person does not consider their mind to be the problem. This really seems to be more about your comfort than the comfort of the transgender person. It's really egocentric. Look, maybe sex and gender did get mixed up by some chemical imbalance, but the transgender person does not want to change who they are, anymore than you want to change who you are. Yes, some post-op regret the decision. However, it has been reported that the surgery does reduce gender dysphoria. This is not up for debate. However, surgery does NOT resolve other problems of transsexuals, and significant post-operative care and psychotherapy is often recommended because of this. Transsexuals not only have a desire to inhabit a body of the opposite sex, but they also have to accept themselves for who they are, and deal with depression, etc. Surgery has never been stated to be a cure all, and this is why we have regulations on who can have surgery. You don't just get to say you are transsexual, and the first thing you do is get surgery. No, first you have to be living as a female full time for at least one year, and convince a medical professional that your genitalia is causing you extreme stress. Post-op people who regret the operation USUALLY exhibit many red flags, such as: During hormone therapy, changing their minds and stopping hormone therapy. Being "unsure" if they are actually transsexual. Or pursuing the operation for the wrong reasons (a sexual fetish). Or they believe that the operation will magically fix their self image problems. well, this may sound harsh, but what they themselves consider to be the problem is not really all that important int he discussion of what the problem really is. I might not want to admit that depression is my problem (for example), but that doesn't mean it isn't my problem. and receiving treatment is not "changing who you are". and another thing, I'm not advocating one way or another. I don't know enough about the subject to have a concrete opinion about it, that's why I'm asking questions. No, I really think you would be "changing who you are" because you identity has already formed around this gender. You can't remove pieces of people's consciousness like legos, it doesn't work that way. Even if you could fix the problem in the mind, my bet is it would be much easier to fix it in the body.
my identity might, to some degree, have been built on the feelings that I have. those could be influenced by depression or other mental disorders. I am still me when I receive treatment. the post-op trans hasn't changed who they are, they've just changed some aspects of their physical appearance/makeup.
the question is whether it really is a problem with the body and not just a problem with the mind. as of yet, I haven't seen enough either way to be sure (admittedly, I haven't researched it all that much).
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On December 06 2012 03:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:35 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs. Because usually the transgender person does not consider their mind to be the problem. This really seems to be more about your comfort than the comfort of the transgender person. It's really egocentric. Look, maybe sex and gender did get mixed up by some chemical imbalance, but the transgender person does not want to change who they are, anymore than you want to change who you are. Yes, some post-op regret the decision. However, it has been reported that the surgery does reduce gender dysphoria. This is not up for debate. However, surgery does NOT resolve other problems of transsexuals, and significant post-operative care and psychotherapy is often recommended because of this. Transsexuals not only have a desire to inhabit a body of the opposite sex, but they also have to accept themselves for who they are, and deal with depression, etc. Surgery has never been stated to be a cure all, and this is why we have regulations on who can have surgery. You don't just get to say you are transsexual, and the first thing you do is get surgery. No, first you have to be living as a female full time for at least one year, and convince a medical professional that your genitalia is causing you extreme stress. Post-op people who regret the operation USUALLY exhibit many red flags, such as: During hormone therapy, changing their minds and stopping hormone therapy. Being "unsure" if they are actually transsexual. Or pursuing the operation for the wrong reasons (a sexual fetish). Or they believe that the operation will magically fix their self image problems. well, this may sound harsh, but what they themselves consider to be the problem is not really all that important int he discussion of what the problem really is. I might not want to admit that depression is my problem (for example), but that doesn't mean it isn't my problem. and receiving treatment is not "changing who you are". and another thing, I'm not advocating one way or another. I don't know enough about the subject to have a concrete opinion about it, that's why I'm asking questions.
I think it is rather important. It only takes a little bit of self-reflection to see that. If you're an introverted person, and the world expects you to be extroverted, is the problem with you or other people? Look, in hospitals, patients have the right to refuse treatment. Even if it's completely absurd and clearly the wrong medical decision, there is an explicit right to choose what treatment you undergo. So, if that's the case, and we have two treatment options available (transforming ourselves into the gender we "ought" to be, or fixing our bodies) - we should be allowed to choose the one we want. Regardless of what outsiders believe the problem actually is.
I know you think there is something wrong with my mind. I don't. And I think my opinion should trump yours immediately and prima facie because I do not have a mental illness preventing me from making logical and rational decisions. Indeed, I feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with my ability to make decisions, and my ability to make arguments in this thread should make that obvious enough.
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On December 06 2012 03:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:48 sam!zdat wrote:On December 06 2012 03:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:35 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs. Because usually the transgender person does not consider their mind to be the problem. This really seems to be more about your comfort than the comfort of the transgender person. It's really egocentric. Look, maybe sex and gender did get mixed up by some chemical imbalance, but the transgender person does not want to change who they are, anymore than you want to change who you are. Yes, some post-op regret the decision. However, it has been reported that the surgery does reduce gender dysphoria. This is not up for debate. However, surgery does NOT resolve other problems of transsexuals, and significant post-operative care and psychotherapy is often recommended because of this. Transsexuals not only have a desire to inhabit a body of the opposite sex, but they also have to accept themselves for who they are, and deal with depression, etc. Surgery has never been stated to be a cure all, and this is why we have regulations on who can have surgery. You don't just get to say you are transsexual, and the first thing you do is get surgery. No, first you have to be living as a female full time for at least one year, and convince a medical professional that your genitalia is causing you extreme stress. Post-op people who regret the operation USUALLY exhibit many red flags, such as: During hormone therapy, changing their minds and stopping hormone therapy. Being "unsure" if they are actually transsexual. Or pursuing the operation for the wrong reasons (a sexual fetish). Or they believe that the operation will magically fix their self image problems. well, this may sound harsh, but what they themselves consider to be the problem is not really all that important int he discussion of what the problem really is. I might not want to admit that depression is my problem (for example), but that doesn't mean it isn't my problem. and receiving treatment is not "changing who you are". and another thing, I'm not advocating one way or another. I don't know enough about the subject to have a concrete opinion about it, that's why I'm asking questions. No, I really think you would be "changing who you are" because you identity has already formed around this gender. You can't remove pieces of people's consciousness like legos, it doesn't work that way. Even if you could fix the problem in the mind, my bet is it would be much easier to fix it in the body. my identity might, to some degree, have been built on the feelings that I have. those could be influenced by depression or other mental disorders. I am still me when I receive treatment. the post-op trans hasn't changed who they are, they've just changed some aspects of their physical appearance/makeup. the question is whether it really is a problem with the body and not just a problem with the mind. as of yet, I haven't seen enough either way to be sure (admittedly, I haven't researched it all that much).
But even if you take the rest of the body as basis and not the brain, if the brain cannot be altered, then practically does it have any relevance where the problem is?
But practically it does have relevance whether you call someone's entire identity as a mental disorder implying that they're insane, when transsexual people are normal, functional people besides having the gender identity of the opposite sex and having depression/anxiety related to their assigned sex body, regrets and discrimination.
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On December 06 2012 03:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:
my identity might, to some degree, have been built on the feelings that I have. those could be influenced by depression or other mental disorders. I am still me when I receive treatment. the post-op trans hasn't changed who they are, they've just changed some aspects of their physical appearance/makeup.
As a trans girl, I would actually agree with you. I am no MORE of a woman after I receive SRS, because gender is decided by the brain, not by your primary sex characteristics.
On December 06 2012 03:51 sc2superfan101 wrote:
the question is whether it really is a problem with the body and not just a problem with the mind. as of yet, I haven't seen enough either way to be sure (admittedly, I haven't researched it all that much).
There is no concrete answer as of yet. Most people believe that one's self is a part of the mind, not the body, so it would only follow that the body should be changed, while the mind is preserved. However, the "problem" with trans people is that there is an incongruency between the body and the mind in the first place, so it's difficult to point a finger at which one is causing the problem.
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On December 06 2012 03:20 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:19 TheToaster wrote:
The human soul has no gender. Transgenders that argue they need to fulfill some sort of gaping hole in their self persona are completely ignorant of this fact. Changing your outward appearance has nothing to do with your true inner self. That activity simply feeds cultural norms which define gender based on societal practices. For example when a woman dresses in almost unclad attire to seem more sexually attractive. This isn't something a man would do, because dressing in unclad attire would be weird for a man. In that sense, transgenders are actually inhibiting themselves by acting like these cultural norms actually define someone's gender. When in fact gender is really an outward illusion. Again, you are merely conflating gender expression with gender identity.
I'm not the one who conflates them, it's transgenders who conflate them. They feel the need to dress up as who they feel inside, when that simply has nothing to do with who they are as a person. This reinforces the notion that one must follow the societal illusions of gender roles to actually become the gender they want to be, when in fact they don't. It's a pointless struggle created by transgenders themselves.
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On December 06 2012 03:54 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 03:46 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:35 shinosai wrote:On December 06 2012 03:28 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 06 2012 03:22 sam!zdat wrote:
I think the fact that people WANT to do such a prima facie strange thing as change their sex is proof enough for me that the whole things exists... if it didn't, why would we be having this conversation? If sex and gender were the same thing, there wouldn't be people who felt like their sex and gender got mixed up somehow and desired to fix it. QED. my only question is how they know that it's their sex and gender got mixed up and not something else like a chemical imbalance or genetic abnormality that can be solved with medicine/therapy? I know that many (not all) post-op transgender people regret the decision to have an operation and say it didn't fix the problem. obviously it's not so simple as being born with the wrong sexual organs. Because usually the transgender person does not consider their mind to be the problem. This really seems to be more about your comfort than the comfort of the transgender person. It's really egocentric. Look, maybe sex and gender did get mixed up by some chemical imbalance, but the transgender person does not want to change who they are, anymore than you want to change who you are. Yes, some post-op regret the decision. However, it has been reported that the surgery does reduce gender dysphoria. This is not up for debate. However, surgery does NOT resolve other problems of transsexuals, and significant post-operative care and psychotherapy is often recommended because of this. Transsexuals not only have a desire to inhabit a body of the opposite sex, but they also have to accept themselves for who they are, and deal with depression, etc. Surgery has never been stated to be a cure all, and this is why we have regulations on who can have surgery. You don't just get to say you are transsexual, and the first thing you do is get surgery. No, first you have to be living as a female full time for at least one year, and convince a medical professional that your genitalia is causing you extreme stress. Post-op people who regret the operation USUALLY exhibit many red flags, such as: During hormone therapy, changing their minds and stopping hormone therapy. Being "unsure" if they are actually transsexual. Or pursuing the operation for the wrong reasons (a sexual fetish). Or they believe that the operation will magically fix their self image problems. well, this may sound harsh, but what they themselves consider to be the problem is not really all that important int he discussion of what the problem really is. I might not want to admit that depression is my problem (for example), but that doesn't mean it isn't my problem. and receiving treatment is not "changing who you are". and another thing, I'm not advocating one way or another. I don't know enough about the subject to have a concrete opinion about it, that's why I'm asking questions. I think it is rather important. It only takes a little bit of self-reflection to see that. If you're an introverted person, and the world expects you to be extroverted, is the problem with you or other people? Look, in hospitals, patients have the right to refuse treatment. Even if it's completely absurd and clearly the wrong medical decision, there is an explicit right to choose what treatment you undergo. So, if that's the case, and we have two treatment options available (transforming ourselves into the gender we "ought" to be, or fixing our bodies) - we should be allowed to choose the one we want. Regardless of what outsiders believe the problem actually is. I know you think there is something wrong with my mind. I don't. And I think my opinion should trump yours immediately and prima facie because I do not have a mental illness preventing me from making logical and rational decisions. Indeed, I feel there is absolutely nothing wrong with my ability to make decisions, and my ability to make arguments in this thread should make that obvious enough.
I don't know that we should allow people to receive whatever treatment they feel like receiving. some "treatments" aren't healthy (not saying that ops are unhealthy), and some aren't effective. we make decisions all the time for the patient's own good: not letting parents "pray away the cancer" of their children. now, this isn't exactly an argument against ops, just an establishment of the premise that it is sometimes okay to pursue and allow only one type of treatment.
I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with your mind, that's why I said I don't know enough about it to make an opinion. I'm not lying when I say that I don't know enough to say either way, so please don't assume that. your arguments in this thread do speak to the fact that you are clearly intelligent and capable of rational thought, but that doesn't mean you know what is best for you medically speaking. (it doesn't mean you don't either, it just doesn't say either way).
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EPT
