|
On September 16 2012 19:01 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:
Wow... You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
90% of Chinese mainlanders I know are under no illusion that they are living in a free and democratic state. But they don't complain because no one can bring 1.3 billion people out of poverty by giving everyone a vote at the ballots. You might think that everyone in China subsists off a diet of government sanctioned history textbooks, but believe or not, they do have access to the Internet, and the joke of a 'internet firewall' is hardly adequate in the face of all the exploits and bypasses that Chinese netizens have created. In fact, I can safely say that any Chinese on the Internet will have a reasonable understanding of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the bullshit that happened in 1989.
You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. It's condescending to think that we know more about some things that happened in their own country than them because we supposedly have 'freedom' to information. Why make a statement like that, when you don't even try to dispel any of my claims. If I'm really clueless, please educate me. That's the point of debates. This seems to be a really loaded subject, I guess a result of this is that a lot of ppl here are reading too much into what others are saying and skewing words. I'm guessing what you reacted on was that I possibly exaggerated how much the Chinese ppl knows about history, but if they really know as much as we do, they have even more reasons to be discontent with their own government, and although their attacks on Japan are understandable, these ppl really should direct their anger at their own government, which is a much greater offender than Japan, especially these days. Anyway, I agree completely that even if the majority wants it, China will not change dramatically overnight. Russia is still struggling, and it will not be any easier for China.
No. He's saying that the Chinese are not directing their anger at the government not for lack of knowledge or from being brainwashed, but because it is the most viable decision at this stage. You are actually insulting them by insinuating that they're ignorant of their own history and government, and by telling them they shouldn't direct anger at the Japanese. Have you not considered this could be an educated decision after much deliberation?
|
On September 16 2012 19:01 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:
No, I didn't. It's complicated how the South feels about the North and it's definitely not at the level of hate/racism that's directed at the Japanese. They see NK as a wayward part of the family but still essentially Korean (some even supported them 2nd behind SK in the Olympics). Mention of the Japanese just evokes hostility.
You should read again what I said. I said nothing about the relationship between north and south korea. What I said is that North Korea hates Japan a lot more than South Korea hates Japan, and China probably does too, although before this event I probably wouldn't have said the latter. By comparison, they are. South Korea was built on borrowed Japanese money and investments for crying out loud. They may not love eachother, but they definately seem capable of cooperating. Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 18:06 Xiahou wrote:On September 16 2012 17:47 ninini wrote:On September 16 2012 15:04 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Oh come on. Show a little humanity here. You talk as if the Chinese people deserve all the war crimes just because the CCP sucks, when they actually had to deal with both. 20 million people died in China. I'm sure that's more than the entire war casualty in the history of the US. Even if the entire country wasn't occupied because it was a freaking big country with a lot of resistance, the occupied territory is way bigger than Korea itself. It's not just about the war crimes itself, it's about the dismissive attitude of the Japanese government and their insincere apologies as well as the textbook issue. Oh, and South Korea do have some major problems with Japan, and they are also exposed to some pretty heavy anti-Japan propaganda. Plus they also have their own island debate with em! (Dokudo islands) EDIT: You know what, the more I read this post the more it sounds not just ignorant but outright sinophobic. Wouldn't have expected this from a Swede... My point is, the Chinese ppl should riot against their own government, not against Japan. What harm have Japan done to anyone since WW2? You could blame them for being passive-aggressive, which I did, and I also explained why Japan have a hard time admitting fault. Just to make things clear, the japanese conservatism is not the ppl's fault, it's a democratic problem. But what about China? What have they done since the war? A lot more. Look at how they have treated their own ppl, and how they are treating North Korean refugees. And note how they fought against freedom in Vietnam and Korea, and contributed to millions of deaths. If they were so disgusted by japanese imperialism, then why did they follow in their footsteps? Well, the chinese ppl probably don't know that they were imperialists, because of their government. Instead, they have been taught that they were the ones fighting for freedom. They don't know that the only reason why they adopted communism to begin with, was because a guy named Stalin financed the party into power. Believe me, I have no preconceived opinions about asian ppl, or any other group for that matter. I don't know why you made those claims, and if you knew me, you would know that I'm very open and trusting towards different cultures. However I'm not a big fan of the Chinese government, but that's a major difference. I know a few germans, who was born there and moved to Sweden as adults, and while reading this thread it occured to me that it had never before crossed my mind that these germans (who I consider as friends), had relatives that fought in the war for Nazi Germany, or even were part of the Nazi party. The reason why this never had crossed my mind is because I don't believe that the ppl are the same as their government, and I also don't believe that anyone should be blamed for what their ancestors did, so I never saw the connection between germans living in the 00's and the nazi party. Maybe you guys should try thinking the same way. China, Korea and Japan are all victims one way or another, but unlike China, Japan have turned their backs on destructive behaviour and is trying to do good. Yes, it's true that the government of China is going in the right direction, and the sudden influx of chinese students in the swedish university I attend pleases me a lot, but China still have a long way to go before they reach Japan's standards. Rioting about what happened 70 years ago is silly and childish, and especially so in this situation, where the Chinese government have a lot more to ask for forgiveness for. On September 16 2012 15:08 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? Patently untrue. South Korea hates Japan more than any other country (China probably comes in 2nd) and naturally has huge issues over what happened in WW2 and the earlier occupations/invasions. Slurs like 'monkey' are commonplace. ......Didn't you forget a country called North Korea? North Korea is the only enemy of Japan, and the "admiration" goes both ways. South Korea don't have a major problem with Japan. That's the truth. Note that I used the adjective "major". They have collaborated with them a lot through the years, and if it weren't for Japan, South Korea wouldn't be what it is today. Obviously, there are some negative tension, given their history, but you don't see riots like this happening, and the governments are well-behaved towards eachother, which you can't say about the China/North Korea-Japan relations. Wow... You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 90% of Chinese mainlanders I know are under no illusion that they are living in a free and democratic state. But they don't complain because no one can bring 1.3 billion people out of poverty by giving everyone a vote at the ballots. You might think that everyone in China subsists off a diet of government sanctioned history textbooks, but believe or not, they do have access to the Internet, and the joke of a 'internet firewall' is hardly adequate in the face of all the exploits and bypasses that Chinese netizens have created. In fact, I can safely say that any Chinese on the Internet will have a reasonable understanding of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the bullshit that happened in 1989. You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. It's condescending to think that we know more about some things that happened in their own country than them because we supposedly have 'freedom' to information. Why make a statement like that, when you don't even try to dispel any of my claims. If I'm really clueless, please educate me. That's the point of debates. This seems to be a really loaded subject, I guess a result of this is that a lot of ppl here are reading too much into what others are saying and skewing words. I'm guessing what you reacted on was that I possibly exaggerated how much the Chinese ppl knows about history, but if they really know as much as we do, they have even more reasons to be discontent with their own government, and although their attacks on Japan are understandable, these ppl really should direct their anger at their own government, which is a much greater offender than Japan, especially these days. Anyway, I agree completely that even if the majority wants it, China will not change dramatically overnight. Russia is still struggling, and it will not be any easier for China.
Chinese people should riot against their government? Are you aware that in the past 20 years 200 million people in the world rose above the poverty line? All of them Chinese.
|
On September 16 2012 19:01 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:
No, I didn't. It's complicated how the South feels about the North and it's definitely not at the level of hate/racism that's directed at the Japanese. They see NK as a wayward part of the family but still essentially Korean (some even supported them 2nd behind SK in the Olympics). Mention of the Japanese just evokes hostility.
You should read again what I said. I said nothing about the relationship between north and south korea. What I said is that North Korea hates Japan a lot more than South Korea hates Japan, and China probably does too, although before this event I probably wouldn't have said the latter. By comparison, they are. South Korea was built on borrowed Japanese money and investments for crying out loud. They may not love eachother, but they definately seem capable of cooperating. Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 18:06 Xiahou wrote:On September 16 2012 17:47 ninini wrote:On September 16 2012 15:04 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Oh come on. Show a little humanity here. You talk as if the Chinese people deserve all the war crimes just because the CCP sucks, when they actually had to deal with both. 20 million people died in China. I'm sure that's more than the entire war casualty in the history of the US. Even if the entire country wasn't occupied because it was a freaking big country with a lot of resistance, the occupied territory is way bigger than Korea itself. It's not just about the war crimes itself, it's about the dismissive attitude of the Japanese government and their insincere apologies as well as the textbook issue. Oh, and South Korea do have some major problems with Japan, and they are also exposed to some pretty heavy anti-Japan propaganda. Plus they also have their own island debate with em! (Dokudo islands) EDIT: You know what, the more I read this post the more it sounds not just ignorant but outright sinophobic. Wouldn't have expected this from a Swede... My point is, the Chinese ppl should riot against their own government, not against Japan. What harm have Japan done to anyone since WW2? You could blame them for being passive-aggressive, which I did, and I also explained why Japan have a hard time admitting fault. Just to make things clear, the japanese conservatism is not the ppl's fault, it's a democratic problem. But what about China? What have they done since the war? A lot more. Look at how they have treated their own ppl, and how they are treating North Korean refugees. And note how they fought against freedom in Vietnam and Korea, and contributed to millions of deaths. If they were so disgusted by japanese imperialism, then why did they follow in their footsteps? Well, the chinese ppl probably don't know that they were imperialists, because of their government. Instead, they have been taught that they were the ones fighting for freedom. They don't know that the only reason why they adopted communism to begin with, was because a guy named Stalin financed the party into power. Believe me, I have no preconceived opinions about asian ppl, or any other group for that matter. I don't know why you made those claims, and if you knew me, you would know that I'm very open and trusting towards different cultures. However I'm not a big fan of the Chinese government, but that's a major difference. I know a few germans, who was born there and moved to Sweden as adults, and while reading this thread it occured to me that it had never before crossed my mind that these germans (who I consider as friends), had relatives that fought in the war for Nazi Germany, or even were part of the Nazi party. The reason why this never had crossed my mind is because I don't believe that the ppl are the same as their government, and I also don't believe that anyone should be blamed for what their ancestors did, so I never saw the connection between germans living in the 00's and the nazi party. Maybe you guys should try thinking the same way. China, Korea and Japan are all victims one way or another, but unlike China, Japan have turned their backs on destructive behaviour and is trying to do good. Yes, it's true that the government of China is going in the right direction, and the sudden influx of chinese students in the swedish university I attend pleases me a lot, but China still have a long way to go before they reach Japan's standards. Rioting about what happened 70 years ago is silly and childish, and especially so in this situation, where the Chinese government have a lot more to ask for forgiveness for. On September 16 2012 15:08 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? Patently untrue. South Korea hates Japan more than any other country (China probably comes in 2nd) and naturally has huge issues over what happened in WW2 and the earlier occupations/invasions. Slurs like 'monkey' are commonplace. ......Didn't you forget a country called North Korea? North Korea is the only enemy of Japan, and the "admiration" goes both ways. South Korea don't have a major problem with Japan. That's the truth. Note that I used the adjective "major". They have collaborated with them a lot through the years, and if it weren't for Japan, South Korea wouldn't be what it is today. Obviously, there are some negative tension, given their history, but you don't see riots like this happening, and the governments are well-behaved towards eachother, which you can't say about the China/North Korea-Japan relations. Wow... You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 90% of Chinese mainlanders I know are under no illusion that they are living in a free and democratic state. But they don't complain because no one can bring 1.3 billion people out of poverty by giving everyone a vote at the ballots. You might think that everyone in China subsists off a diet of government sanctioned history textbooks, but believe or not, they do have access to the Internet, and the joke of a 'internet firewall' is hardly adequate in the face of all the exploits and bypasses that Chinese netizens have created. In fact, I can safely say that any Chinese on the Internet will have a reasonable understanding of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the bullshit that happened in 1989. You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. It's condescending to think that we know more about some things that happened in their own country than them because we supposedly have 'freedom' to information. Why make a statement like that, when you don't even try to dispel any of my claims. If I'm really clueless, please educate me. That's the point of debates. This seems to be a really loaded subject, I guess a result of this is that a lot of ppl here are reading too much into what others are saying and skewing words. I'm guessing what you reacted on was that I possibly exaggerated how much the Chinese ppl knows about history, but if they really know as much as we do, they have even more reasons to be discontent with their own government, and although their attacks on Japan are understandable, these ppl really should direct their anger at their own government, which is a much greater offender than Japan, especially these days. Anyway, I agree completely that even if the majority wants it, China will not change dramatically overnight. Russia is still struggling, and it will not be any easier for China.
Chinese citizens should be discontented and direct their anger at the Chinese government because of... the dispute over these islands? Are you even on the same page? And what makes you think that Chinese citizens have not expressed outrage over other scandals and events that involve Chinese officials? It happens all the time, just that the censors work doubly fast.
When you want to talk about South Korea's relationship with Japan, you have to qualify between the government and the people. Sure, both governments are on fairly good terms with each other. But what everyone else here is pointing out is that the South Korean citizens are still mad, and rightly so, because of the events that has transpired.
And what does North Korea has to do with this territorial dispute? North Korea hates everyone in that region except China because China's giving them aid. Has these islands changed that?
|
On September 16 2012 06:10 TehPrime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:08 Fantaisie wrote:
So much hatred. I don't understand this. Considering fact that you probably don't understand the history between these two countries, you wouldn't understand the hatred between China and japan.
Keyword: history.
Leave it in the past. Move on.
|
On September 16 2012 19:59 Sickkiee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:10 TehPrime wrote:On September 16 2012 06:08 Fantaisie wrote:
So much hatred. I don't understand this. Considering fact that you probably don't understand the history between these two countries, you wouldn't understand the hatred between China and japan. Keyword: history. Leave it in the past. Move on.
Almost every single Japanese national (from what i can tell from TL ID's) has responded the same way as you.
This nonchalance is why the entirety of east asia and many parts of SEA are so furious and loath Japan...
|
Well, whatever the case, we all need to agree that Chinese people have to stop violence. It's just the same way Muslims need to stop violence against the West. Protest as you like, but do it peacefully.
Just because a person made a terrible movie about Mohammed, you are not allowed to raid American Embassy in Lybia.
Just because you have history/territorial dispute with Japan, you are not allowed to destroy Japanese Businesses in Chinese cities.
|
People are so understanding of this. Yet when poles show 10% of this sentiment towards the Russians its "random, out of nowhere and we should get over this". This just an example same goes for Armenians, Estonians and so on....If Chinese has the right to sentiment then everyone does, and i dont think thats ok. They should "get over this" like everyone tells us too.
|
This picture is disgusting!
![[image loading]](http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/shang_kenneth/anti-japanese-protests.jpg)
They really want Japan to be nuked just because their angry? What the fuck is wrong with people these days?
What do these citizen care about a little fucking island anyways? It's all just patriotism.
Taiwan, Tibet and Mongolia could do the same thing but with the chinese flag crossed over instead and a nuke.
|
What is this thread really about? Is it about the increasingly violent expressions of anti-Japanese sentiment i China, or is it about the Japanese war-crimes during ww2. Because they can actually be discussed separately. Really, what does a Chinese owner of a Japanese car have to do with unit 731? I know people will disagree (vocally) with this, but w/e.
To me, this is more about how easy it is to get one human to hate another, justified by regarding them as belonging to a group different from your own. It is even easier when these groups have historical reasons to do so (though personally I find all such reasons null and void). What I want those who are proponents of bringing the Japanese war-crimes into this discussion, what do you want to achieve by this, particularly with respect to the anti-Japanese sentiments in China/Korea? Is your argument that if Japan apologizes vigorously enough, these sentiments will disappear?
I think the blame-game ultimately is destructive for both parties. The genocides in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia are historically more recent, and carried out by people who lived much closer to each other. And you can argue the historical background of those wars all you want, but in the end, the different parts MUST find a way to live with each other afterward. Nursing old wounds does not make them heal. And I think it is all too easy to open them again. And that would be the most tragic thing, because that would really show that we learn nothing from history.
|
On September 16 2012 20:06 Waterflow wrote:This picture is disgusting!They really want Japan to be nuked just because their angry? What the fuck is wrong with people these days? What do these citizen care about a little fucking island anyways? It's all just patriotism.
To be fair, these people are also being condemned as 'patriot bandits' (aka mobs that justify their banditry with patriotic rherotics) by the vast majority of Chinese netizens.
But of course, It only takes a vocal (and violent) minority to discredit Chinese nationalists in general.
|
On September 16 2012 20:04 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 19:59 Sickkiee wrote:On September 16 2012 06:10 TehPrime wrote:On September 16 2012 06:08 Fantaisie wrote:
So much hatred. I don't understand this. Considering fact that you probably don't understand the history between these two countries, you wouldn't understand the hatred between China and japan. Keyword: history. Leave it in the past. Move on. This nonchalance is why the entirety of east asia and many parts of SEA are so furious and loath Japan...
Do you really, really believe that is the true, real reason? It seems to me humans, regardless of nationality, doesn't even need that much of a reason for hate....
|
On September 16 2012 20:14 Fwmeh wrote:
What is this thread really about? Is it about the increasingly violent expressions of anti-Japanese sentiment i China, or is it about the Japanese war-crimes during ww2. Because they can actually be discussed separately. Really, what does a Chinese owner of a Japanese car have to do with unit 731? I know people will disagree (vocally) with this, but w/e.
To me, this is more about how easy it is to get one human to hate another, justified by regarding them as belonging to a group different from your own. It is even easier when these groups have historical reasons to do so (though personally I find all such reasons null and void). What I want those who are proponents of bringing the Japanese war-crimes into this discussion, what do you want to achieve by this, particularly with respect to the anti-Japanese sentiments in China/Korea? Is your argument that if Japan apologizes vigorously enough, these sentiments will disappear?
I think the blame-game ultimately is destructive for both parties. The genocides in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia are historically more recent, and carried out by people who lived much closer to each other. And you can argue the historical background of those wars all you want, but in the end, the different parts MUST find a way to live with each other afterward. Nursing old wounds does not make them heal. And I think it is all too easy to open them again. And that would be the most tragic thing, because that would really show that we learn nothing from history.
The thread moved towards war-crimes because there isn't a single user here who doesn't think Chinese people destroying other Chinese peoples 'Japanese' property is moronic and retarded. Theres just no discussion to be had about the violence TBH except condemning it.
On September 16 2012 20:17 Fwmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 20:04 ShadeR wrote:On September 16 2012 19:59 Sickkiee wrote:On September 16 2012 06:10 TehPrime wrote:On September 16 2012 06:08 Fantaisie wrote:
So much hatred. I don't understand this. Considering fact that you probably don't understand the history between these two countries, you wouldn't understand the hatred between China and japan. Keyword: history. Leave it in the past. Move on. This nonchalance is why the entirety of east asia and many parts of SEA are so furious and loath Japan... Do you really, really believe that is the true, real reason? It seems to me humans, regardless of nationality, doesn't even need that much of a reason for hate....
I agree people who wish to be offended will always find a means to be offended.
Japan running rampant had nothing to do with the unanimous disdain...
|
On September 16 2012 19:59 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 19:01 ninini wrote:On September 16 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:
No, I didn't. It's complicated how the South feels about the North and it's definitely not at the level of hate/racism that's directed at the Japanese. They see NK as a wayward part of the family but still essentially Korean (some even supported them 2nd behind SK in the Olympics). Mention of the Japanese just evokes hostility.
You should read again what I said. I said nothing about the relationship between north and south korea. What I said is that North Korea hates Japan a lot more than South Korea hates Japan, and China probably does too, although before this event I probably wouldn't have said the latter. On September 16 2012 17:55 yandere991 wrote:Rofl at the notion that the governments of SK and Japan are "well behaved" towards each other. Funny how this article was in this weeks edition of The Economist. http://www.economist.com/node/21562239 By comparison, they are. South Korea was built on borrowed Japanese money and investments for crying out loud. They may not love eachother, but they definately seem capable of cooperating. On September 16 2012 18:06 Xiahou wrote:On September 16 2012 17:47 ninini wrote:On September 16 2012 15:04 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Oh come on. Show a little humanity here. You talk as if the Chinese people deserve all the war crimes just because the CCP sucks, when they actually had to deal with both. 20 million people died in China. I'm sure that's more than the entire war casualty in the history of the US. Even if the entire country wasn't occupied because it was a freaking big country with a lot of resistance, the occupied territory is way bigger than Korea itself. It's not just about the war crimes itself, it's about the dismissive attitude of the Japanese government and their insincere apologies as well as the textbook issue. Oh, and South Korea do have some major problems with Japan, and they are also exposed to some pretty heavy anti-Japan propaganda. Plus they also have their own island debate with em! (Dokudo islands) EDIT: You know what, the more I read this post the more it sounds not just ignorant but outright sinophobic. Wouldn't have expected this from a Swede... My point is, the Chinese ppl should riot against their own government, not against Japan. What harm have Japan done to anyone since WW2? You could blame them for being passive-aggressive, which I did, and I also explained why Japan have a hard time admitting fault. Just to make things clear, the japanese conservatism is not the ppl's fault, it's a democratic problem. But what about China? What have they done since the war? A lot more. Look at how they have treated their own ppl, and how they are treating North Korean refugees. And note how they fought against freedom in Vietnam and Korea, and contributed to millions of deaths. If they were so disgusted by japanese imperialism, then why did they follow in their footsteps? Well, the chinese ppl probably don't know that they were imperialists, because of their government. Instead, they have been taught that they were the ones fighting for freedom. They don't know that the only reason why they adopted communism to begin with, was because a guy named Stalin financed the party into power. Believe me, I have no preconceived opinions about asian ppl, or any other group for that matter. I don't know why you made those claims, and if you knew me, you would know that I'm very open and trusting towards different cultures. However I'm not a big fan of the Chinese government, but that's a major difference. I know a few germans, who was born there and moved to Sweden as adults, and while reading this thread it occured to me that it had never before crossed my mind that these germans (who I consider as friends), had relatives that fought in the war for Nazi Germany, or even were part of the Nazi party. The reason why this never had crossed my mind is because I don't believe that the ppl are the same as their government, and I also don't believe that anyone should be blamed for what their ancestors did, so I never saw the connection between germans living in the 00's and the nazi party. Maybe you guys should try thinking the same way. China, Korea and Japan are all victims one way or another, but unlike China, Japan have turned their backs on destructive behaviour and is trying to do good. Yes, it's true that the government of China is going in the right direction, and the sudden influx of chinese students in the swedish university I attend pleases me a lot, but China still have a long way to go before they reach Japan's standards. Rioting about what happened 70 years ago is silly and childish, and especially so in this situation, where the Chinese government have a lot more to ask for forgiveness for. On September 16 2012 15:08 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? Patently untrue. South Korea hates Japan more than any other country (China probably comes in 2nd) and naturally has huge issues over what happened in WW2 and the earlier occupations/invasions. Slurs like 'monkey' are commonplace. ......Didn't you forget a country called North Korea? North Korea is the only enemy of Japan, and the "admiration" goes both ways. South Korea don't have a major problem with Japan. That's the truth. Note that I used the adjective "major". They have collaborated with them a lot through the years, and if it weren't for Japan, South Korea wouldn't be what it is today. Obviously, there are some negative tension, given their history, but you don't see riots like this happening, and the governments are well-behaved towards eachother, which you can't say about the China/North Korea-Japan relations. Wow... You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 90% of Chinese mainlanders I know are under no illusion that they are living in a free and democratic state. But they don't complain because no one can bring 1.3 billion people out of poverty by giving everyone a vote at the ballots. You might think that everyone in China subsists off a diet of government sanctioned history textbooks, but believe or not, they do have access to the Internet, and the joke of a 'internet firewall' is hardly adequate in the face of all the exploits and bypasses that Chinese netizens have created. In fact, I can safely say that any Chinese on the Internet will have a reasonable understanding of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the bullshit that happened in 1989. You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. It's condescending to think that we know more about some things that happened in their own country than them because we supposedly have 'freedom' to information. Why make a statement like that, when you don't even try to dispel any of my claims. If I'm really clueless, please educate me. That's the point of debates. This seems to be a really loaded subject, I guess a result of this is that a lot of ppl here are reading too much into what others are saying and skewing words. I'm guessing what you reacted on was that I possibly exaggerated how much the Chinese ppl knows about history, but if they really know as much as we do, they have even more reasons to be discontent with their own government, and although their attacks on Japan are understandable, these ppl really should direct their anger at their own government, which is a much greater offender than Japan, especially these days. Anyway, I agree completely that even if the majority wants it, China will not change dramatically overnight. Russia is still struggling, and it will not be any easier for China. Chinese citizens should be discontented and direct their anger at the Chinese government because of... the dispute over these islands? Are you even on the same page? And what makes you think that Chinese citizens have not expressed outrage over other scandals and events that involve Chinese officials? It happens all the time, just that the censors work doubly fast. When you want to talk about South Korea's relationship with Japan, you have to qualify between the government and the people. Sure, both governments are on fairly good terms with each other. But what everyone else here is pointing out is that the South Korean citizens are still mad, and rightly so, because of the events that has transpired. And what does North Korea has to do with this territorial dispute? North Korea hates everyone in that region except China because China's giving them aid. Has these islands changed that?
I think you guys are misunderstanding ninini, he is talking about the historical revisionism done by the Chinese government, which really is on a whole other level than the Japanese revisionism. Of course two wrongs doesn't make a right, but if you don't want to look completely hypocritical (in the view of a third party) you should clean up your own mess (or at least show any willingness in doing so) before loudly condemming others for the same.
This becomes even more true if what Xiahou wrote is true and the majority of Chinese have an accurate view on their history, which I highly doubt: it's only anecdotal but I have talked to numerous Chinese exchange students (who have access to German internet) and their knowledge and understanding of events like Tianmen or the Great Leap Forward or really any somewhat touchy issue like Falun Gong is piss poor. I met exactly one more critical guy and his opinion on his fellow Chinese is even worse than mine.
Now this touches the island issue only indirectly but it's still part of the bigger picture. I have the feeling, that the Chinese government fosters nationalism (rather jingoism) more in recent years. These protests flare up regulary and are then dispersed by calls on being orderly again. The advantages of nationalism for the Party are clear but still I cannot help feeling that they play with fire and at some point might have trouble to put the genie back into the bottle.
|
On September 16 2012 20:14 Fwmeh wrote:
What is this thread really about? Is it about the increasingly violent expressions of anti-Japanese sentiment i China, or is it about the Japanese war-crimes during ww2. Because they can actually be discussed separately. Really, what does a Chinese owner of a Japanese car have to do with unit 731? I know people will disagree (vocally) with this, but w/e.
To me, this is more about how easy it is to get one human to hate another, justified by regarding them as belonging to a group different from your own. It is even easier when these groups have historical reasons to do so (though personally I find all such reasons null and void). What I want those who are proponents of bringing the Japanese war-crimes into this discussion, what do you want to achieve by this, particularly with respect to the anti-Japanese sentiments in China/Korea? Is your argument that if Japan apologizes vigorously enough, these sentiments will disappear?
I think the blame-game ultimately is destructive for both parties. The genocides in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia are historically more recent, and carried out by people who lived much closer to each other. And you can argue the historical background of those wars all you want, but in the end, the different parts MUST find a way to live with each other afterward. Nursing old wounds does not make them heal. And I think it is all too easy to open them again. And that would be the most tragic thing, because that would really show that we learn nothing from history.
This is about territorial dispute over Diaoyu/Senkaku islands that Japanese government officially bought from the owner recently. For some reason in this thread, no one cares about this direct reason of these protests, and discussion started on WWII history from the get go. I guess OP needs to mention the reason for the protests. Various history reasons exist, yet this is mostly about Diaoyu/Senkaku islands.
My original post:
On September 16 2012 13:38 Orek wrote:Let me just limit my post to the direct reason for the recent protests: Diaoyu(Chinese name)/Senkaku(Japanese name) Islands territorial dispute (names in alphabetical order). History between China/Japan is definitely playing a big role for the protests, especially WWII period of it, but there is no doubt that this territorial dispute is the biggest reason this time and most relevant to the topic. So, maybe we should all learn it. Wikipedia Article in English: Senkaku Islands disputeMinistry of Foreign Affairs of Japan Home PageThe Basic View on the Sovereignty over the Senkaku IslandsQ&A on the Senkaku IslandsMinistry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China Home PageMost recent remark from Assistant Foreign MinisterMany comments from spokesmen here and there, but I couldn't find a single comprehensive official government statement on the islands. Any help finding it? Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Republic of China (Taiwan) Home PageAgain, can't find comprehensive statement, at least not English one. Not that whoever advertised the best should win the territorial dispute, but Japan is doing a better job on that front. Until PRC and ROC make better argument, it seems they have nothing to do with Diaoyu/Senkaku islands aside from ambition for underground maritime resources around the islands that a study found the possibility of in 1968, which prompted them to start claiming the islands in mid 1970's. Wikipedia Notes 17 Show nested quote +^ Lee, Seokwoo. Territorial Disputes among Japan, China and Taiwan concerning the Senkaku Islands (Boundary & Territory Briefing Vol.3 No.7). IBRU. p. 10-11. ISBN 1897643500. ""For a long time following the entry into force of the San Francisco Peace Treaty China/Taiwan raised no objection to the fact that the Senkaku Islands were included in the area placed under US administration in accordance with the provisions of Article of the treaty, and USCAP No. 27. In fact, neither China nor Taiwan had taken up the question of sovereignty over the islands until the latter half of 1970 when evidence relating to the existence of oil resources deposited in the East China Sea surfaced. All this clearly indicates that China/Taiwan had not regarded the Senkaku Islands as a part of Taiwan. Thus, for Japan, none of the alleged historical, geographical and geological arguments set forth by China/Taiwan are acceptable as valid under international law to substantiate China's territorial claim over the Senkaku Islands."" MOFA of Japan Q&A Q4 Show nested quote +2.It is only since the 1970s that the Government of China and the Taiwanese Authorities began making their own assertions on territorial sovereignty over the Senkaku Islands, which constitute Japan's inherent territory (See reference). Until then, they had never expressed any objections, including to the fact that the Islands were included in the area over which the United States exercised the administrative rights in accordance with Article 3 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty. Any help in finding PRC/ROC official statements is appreciated.
|
All this over uninhabited islands? I guess I don't really get it. China is this upset over it?
They're doing way worse but trying to force that pro-China education in HK
|
On September 16 2012 20:06 Waterflow wrote:This picture is disgusting!+ Show Spoiler +They really want Japan to be nuked just because their angry? What the fuck is wrong with people these days?What do these citizen care about a little fucking island anyways? It's all just patriotism. Taiwan, Tibet and Mongolia could do the same thing but with the chinese flag crossed over instead and a nuke.
Learn some history thanks.
|
|
|
On September 16 2012 19:59 Sickkiee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:10 TehPrime wrote:On September 16 2012 06:08 Fantaisie wrote:
So much hatred. I don't understand this. Considering fact that you probably don't understand the history between these two countries, you wouldn't understand the hatred between China and japan. Keyword: history. Leave it in the past. Move on.
Why don't we drop some nukes on you tomorrow and a week later it will be history too along with your country.
|
On September 16 2012 19:59 Sickkiee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:10 TehPrime wrote:On September 16 2012 06:08 Fantaisie wrote:
So much hatred. I don't understand this. Considering fact that you probably don't understand the history between these two countries, you wouldn't understand the hatred between China and japan. Keyword: history. Leave it in the past. Move on.
Ironic that this sentiment is exactly why Japan is despised by its neighbours.
|
On September 16 2012 21:10 fearus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 19:59 Sickkiee wrote:On September 16 2012 06:10 TehPrime wrote:On September 16 2012 06:08 Fantaisie wrote:
So much hatred. I don't understand this. Considering fact that you probably don't understand the history between these two countries, you wouldn't understand the hatred between China and japan. Keyword: history. Leave it in the past. Move on. Why don't we drop some nukes on you tomorrow and a week later it will be history too along with your country.
lol, ok bro
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
