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On September 16 2012 16:17 Xpace wrote:
And you mentioned how politics in Japan are hereditary? I won't even bother delving into that; it's like saying the Queen of England decides the military policies of the UK. My head is hurting just thinking of ways to explain the truth, so I'll just put it like that and hopefully you understand.
What's funny is that you're the one who don't know what you're talking about. Ask any japanese guy here, or do a wikipedia search and you will see that japanese politics is mainly about belonging to the right family.
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On September 16 2012 17:58 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:54 JoeSchmoe wrote:On September 16 2012 17:41 Holy_AT wrote:
Chinese government will not lift a finger to stopp this protests or way of thinking, it suits them perfectly.
If people are angry at something or led to believe they should be angry about something, they are not angry about anything else, meaning people will not protest against chinas internal problems or think about freedom and liberty.
This is alsoe the reason for religious protests in the middle east, if US and EU and everyone would really withdraw from the middle east and build a 1 km wall around them they would tear each other appart and kill them until there is no one left.
China, middle east and sveral other countries work through the principle of inner stability through (imagined) outter pressure. Actually it's not that simple. Although general discontent is directed at the japanese for now, riots and large scale protests are dangerous and could result in unpredictable consequences that might upset the social/political stability in China, which is crucial in light of the coming elections. Did you actually just use elections and China in the same sentence. Lol. Funny.
Yes--China is having huge intraparty elections right now. Everyone who has power in China has pretty much been consulted at this point in time... this is the first leadership transition with a successor not handpicked by Deng Xiaoping
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On September 16 2012 18:01 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:17 Xpace wrote:
And you mentioned how politics in Japan are hereditary? I won't even bother delving into that; it's like saying the Queen of England decides the military policies of the UK. My head is hurting just thinking of ways to explain the truth, so I'll just put it like that and hopefully you understand.
What's funny is that you're the one who don't know what you're talking about. Ask any japanese guy here, or do a wikipedia search and you will see that japanese politics is mainly about belonging to the right family.
Yep. Case in point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Hatoyama
His granddad was a Prime Minister; his mom was the heir to the Bridgestone fortune, which she spent on furthering her sons' ambitions in politics
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I don't really see any of this as news. Squabbling over islands is a popular past-time for East Asian governments.
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On September 16 2012 17:47 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 15:04 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Oh come on. Show a little humanity here. You talk as if the Chinese people deserve all the war crimes just because the CCP sucks, when they actually had to deal with both. 20 million people died in China. I'm sure that's more than the entire war casualty in the history of the US. Even if the entire country wasn't occupied because it was a freaking big country with a lot of resistance, the occupied territory is way bigger than Korea itself. It's not just about the war crimes itself, it's about the dismissive attitude of the Japanese government and their insincere apologies as well as the textbook issue. Oh, and South Korea do have some major problems with Japan, and they are also exposed to some pretty heavy anti-Japan propaganda. Plus they also have their own island debate with em! (Dokudo islands) EDIT: You know what, the more I read this post the more it sounds not just ignorant but outright sinophobic. Wouldn't have expected this from a Swede... My point is, the Chinese ppl should riot against their own government, not against Japan. What harm have Japan done to anyone since WW2? You could blame them for being passive-aggressive, which I did, and I also explained why Japan have a hard time admitting fault. Just to make things clear, the japanese conservatism is not the ppl's fault, it's a democratic problem. But what about China? What have they done since the war? A lot more. Look at how they have treated their own ppl, and how they are treating North Korean refugees. And note how they fought against freedom in Vietnam and Korea, and contributed to millions of deaths. If they were so disgusted by japanese imperialism, then why did they follow in their footsteps? Well, the chinese ppl probably don't know that they were imperialists, because of their government. Instead, they have been taught that they were the ones fighting for freedom. They don't know that the only reason why they adopted communism to begin with, was because a guy named Stalin financed the party into power. Believe me, I have no preconceived opinions about asian ppl, or any other group for that matter. I don't know why you made those claims, and if you knew me, you would know that I'm very open and trusting towards different cultures. However I'm not a big fan of the Chinese government, but that's a major difference. I know a few germans, who was born there and moved to Sweden as adults, and while reading this thread it occured to me that it had never before crossed my mind that these germans (who I consider as friends), had relatives that fought in the war for Nazi Germany, or even were part of the Nazi party. The reason why this never had crossed my mind is because I don't believe that the ppl are the same as their government, and I also don't believe that anyone should be blamed for what their ancestors did, so I never saw the connection between germans living in the 00's and the nazi party. Maybe you guys should try thinking the same way. China, Korea and Japan are all victims one way or another, but unlike China, Japan have turned their backs on destructive behaviour and is trying to do good. Yes, it's true that the government of China is going in the right direction, and the sudden influx of chinese students in the swedish university I attend pleases me a lot, but China still have a long way to go before they reach Japan's standards. Rioting about what happened 70 years ago is silly and childish, and especially so in this situation, where the Chinese government have a lot more to ask for forgiveness for. Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 15:08 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? Patently untrue. South Korea hates Japan more than any other country (China probably comes in 2nd) and naturally has huge issues over what happened in WW2 and the earlier occupations/invasions. Slurs like 'monkey' are commonplace. ......Didn't you forget a country called North Korea? North Korea is the only enemy of Japan, and the "admiration" goes both ways. South Korea don't have a major problem with Japan. That's the truth. Note that I used the adjective "major". They have collaborated with them a lot through the years, and if it weren't for Japan, South Korea wouldn't be what it is today. Obviously, there are some negative tension, given their history, but you don't see riots like this happening, and the governments are well-behaved towards eachother, which you can't say about the China/North Korea-Japan relations.
Wow... You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
90% of Chinese mainlanders I know are under no illusion that they are living in a free and democratic state. But they don't complain because no one can bring 1.3 billion people out of poverty by giving everyone a vote at the ballots. You might think that everyone in China subsists off a diet of government sanctioned history textbooks, but believe or not, they do have access to the Internet, and the joke of a 'internet firewall' is hardly adequate in the face of all the exploits and bypasses that Chinese netizens have created. In fact, I can safely say that any Chinese on the Internet will have a reasonable understanding of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the bullshit that happened in 1989.
You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. It's condescending to think that we know more about some things that happened in their own country than them because we supposedly have 'freedom' to information.
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On September 16 2012 17:46 iKill[ShocK] wrote:
do you guys think this will die down? or snowball to a bigger event?
I think this is a well-timed event by Japan. Japan has always had effective control over Diayutai (Senkaku), but they didn't make the proposal for official 'purchase' until very recently.
This happen to perfectly coincide with the communist party's power switch between the Hu-Wen administration and the Xi-Li administration. In particular, China had a lot of political instabilities recently within the party regarding Bo and Xi. Bo has since been removed from his position, and there has been various speculations on Xi being missing.
I don't think Japan is in any position to dictate the direction of this conflict, it really only depends on how far the next Chinese administration is willing to take this. It's not unprecedented (see the Indochina war) for party leaders to use war to 1) get rid of opposition forces within the party and 2) get backing from the populace. Although, in this day and age, a war on that scale between China and Japan is extremely unlikely.
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On September 16 2012 17:44 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:09 Orek wrote:On September 16 2012 15:49 Sub40APM wrote:On September 16 2012 13:21 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 13:07 Sub40APM wrote:On September 16 2012 12:51 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 12:44 naastyOne wrote:
UK. The empire, that counquered ~1/5 of world, and was playing other countries to fight each other for their own gain for 2 centuries. Add the entire strategic carpet bombing of civilians. They were no better than Japanese or Nazi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731Tell me again how the British are no better than the Japanese. You claim to be unbiased, you reveal yourself to simply be ignorant. Saying everyone is equally bad does not make you neutral unless everyone is actually equally bad. In this case it's not and you are factually wrong to claim otherwise. Its hard to argue that the British were worse/no batter than the Nazis since the British never set out to exterminate a race. But in terms of being a colonial power that viewed non-white people with contempt, well, that seems pretty obvious: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.htmlAnd if we are talking about the 19th century of British rule too, then its even more obvious. Japan strongly admired British imperialism and sought to emulate it at every turn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_gas_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920Unlike the Americans, whose imperialism was pretty small league after the exterminated the locals on their own continent and annexed vast portions of Mexico, the British were rapacious occupiers who had no problem grinding down dozens of peoples into semi-slavery by any means necessary. Including terror bombardment, chemical use or starvation... So your evidence that the British are comparable to the Nazis/Japanese is one article about how the British considered using gas weapons, but apparently did not. And one article showing that Churchill (allegedly), witheld aid from an Indian famine, which doesn't account for the complexities of the time: e.g the simultaneous famine in Greece. Well I'm convinced... I posted this before, but the Japanese war crimes are so terrible, extensive and well documented that it really should be required reading in this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes My point was that (a) British imperialism has caused the deaths of millions of people, just like the Japanese but (b) the British never lost a war so no English were tried for war crimes and (c) the Japanese committed their war crimes more recently and thus more publicly thanks to better technologies to record the said crimes. So for Brits, whose current wealth was built on the bones of millions of Indians, Chinese, Africans and Native Americas, to condemn Japanese for trying to do exactly the same thing is somewhat amusing. I understand that having been taught that you are always the good guys and having to acknowledge that your ancestors were genocidal imperialists is tough to accept. Just like it is for the Japanese. If Japan won the war, Harry Truman and Winston Churchill would have been tried and executed as class A war criminal. All the Japanese acts would have been justified in the name of liberating Asia and all the wrongdoings of "Allies of WWII" would have been comdemned as criminal acts. Sadly, victor writes the history. One mistake Japan made was engaging in a war that they kinda knew that they couldn't win. US or UK is no better than Japan, but they just won the war, which is what counts more than anything. Hopefully by, say, 25th century or something, human society learns from the mistakes that our or our grandparents' generation have made. Am I to take it that you think the world would be no better or worse off if Japan and the rest of the Axis had won ww2 and gone on to execute Truman and Churchill? Neither side's actions during that war were a pretty tale, but fuck's sake dude. Both sides used civilian bombing to try and disrupt the other, but only one side was practicing mass ethnic and "undesirable" cleansing, sending in soldiers to rape and kill their way through entire cities, filling entire medical units with humans to be used as guinea pigs, institutionalizing rape and the use of "comfort women", using secret police to make dissidents disappear in the middle of the night, had philosophies built upon a rejection of conventional rationality and the cultivation of racial purity, and so on. I'm not white washing the US and UK, but do you really think the world is worse off under capitalist liberal democracy than it would be under racial supremacist fascism?
World in general aside, if Japan and the rest of the Axis had won ww2, then world would have been better place at least for them. Nowhere in the post did I say Japan would have made the world better if won. I am just pointing out the fact that victor has been writing history and my hope that one day history can be written by all sides if possible.
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A friend of mine is korean. He says his mom is the nicest person in the world but whenever japan is mentioned "her eyes flash with the fires of hatred". When the earthquake hit japan she was like "well they had it coming".
Anti-japan sentiment is still very very strong in some places.
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On September 16 2012 18:06 Xiahou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:47 ninini wrote:On September 16 2012 15:04 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Oh come on. Show a little humanity here. You talk as if the Chinese people deserve all the war crimes just because the CCP sucks, when they actually had to deal with both. 20 million people died in China. I'm sure that's more than the entire war casualty in the history of the US. Even if the entire country wasn't occupied because it was a freaking big country with a lot of resistance, the occupied territory is way bigger than Korea itself. It's not just about the war crimes itself, it's about the dismissive attitude of the Japanese government and their insincere apologies as well as the textbook issue. Oh, and South Korea do have some major problems with Japan, and they are also exposed to some pretty heavy anti-Japan propaganda. Plus they also have their own island debate with em! (Dokudo islands) EDIT: You know what, the more I read this post the more it sounds not just ignorant but outright sinophobic. Wouldn't have expected this from a Swede... My point is, the Chinese ppl should riot against their own government, not against Japan. What harm have Japan done to anyone since WW2? You could blame them for being passive-aggressive, which I did, and I also explained why Japan have a hard time admitting fault. Just to make things clear, the japanese conservatism is not the ppl's fault, it's a democratic problem. But what about China? What have they done since the war? A lot more. Look at how they have treated their own ppl, and how they are treating North Korean refugees. And note how they fought against freedom in Vietnam and Korea, and contributed to millions of deaths. If they were so disgusted by japanese imperialism, then why did they follow in their footsteps? Well, the chinese ppl probably don't know that they were imperialists, because of their government. Instead, they have been taught that they were the ones fighting for freedom. They don't know that the only reason why they adopted communism to begin with, was because a guy named Stalin financed the party into power. Believe me, I have no preconceived opinions about asian ppl, or any other group for that matter. I don't know why you made those claims, and if you knew me, you would know that I'm very open and trusting towards different cultures. However I'm not a big fan of the Chinese government, but that's a major difference. I know a few germans, who was born there and moved to Sweden as adults, and while reading this thread it occured to me that it had never before crossed my mind that these germans (who I consider as friends), had relatives that fought in the war for Nazi Germany, or even were part of the Nazi party. The reason why this never had crossed my mind is because I don't believe that the ppl are the same as their government, and I also don't believe that anyone should be blamed for what their ancestors did, so I never saw the connection between germans living in the 00's and the nazi party. Maybe you guys should try thinking the same way. China, Korea and Japan are all victims one way or another, but unlike China, Japan have turned their backs on destructive behaviour and is trying to do good. Yes, it's true that the government of China is going in the right direction, and the sudden influx of chinese students in the swedish university I attend pleases me a lot, but China still have a long way to go before they reach Japan's standards. Rioting about what happened 70 years ago is silly and childish, and especially so in this situation, where the Chinese government have a lot more to ask for forgiveness for. On September 16 2012 15:08 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? Patently untrue. South Korea hates Japan more than any other country (China probably comes in 2nd) and naturally has huge issues over what happened in WW2 and the earlier occupations/invasions. Slurs like 'monkey' are commonplace. ......Didn't you forget a country called North Korea? North Korea is the only enemy of Japan, and the "admiration" goes both ways. South Korea don't have a major problem with Japan. That's the truth. Note that I used the adjective "major". They have collaborated with them a lot through the years, and if it weren't for Japan, South Korea wouldn't be what it is today. Obviously, there are some negative tension, given their history, but you don't see riots like this happening, and the governments are well-behaved towards eachother, which you can't say about the China/North Korea-Japan relations. ... You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. ...
I only partially agree with this.
The government works because the city dwellers live lives they are content with. The poor don't know better other than wanting to become rich, and no one gives a flying fuck about the poor.
Also, you don't have the means to do anything against the government, so people really don't bother.
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On September 16 2012 18:12 Paperplane wrote:
A friend of mine is korean. He says his mom is the nicest person in the world but whenever japan is mentioned "her eyes flash with the fires of hatred". When the earthquake hit japan she was like "well they had it coming".
Anti-japan sentiment is still very very strong in some places.
Mostly in Korea and China since they suffer the most and still have victims alive from that era. For most other asian countries affected, we are kind of in the 'move on but have not forgotten' stage
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On September 16 2012 18:08 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:44 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 16:09 Orek wrote:On September 16 2012 15:49 Sub40APM wrote:On September 16 2012 13:21 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 13:07 Sub40APM wrote:On September 16 2012 12:51 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 12:44 naastyOne wrote:
UK. The empire, that counquered ~1/5 of world, and was playing other countries to fight each other for their own gain for 2 centuries. Add the entire strategic carpet bombing of civilians. They were no better than Japanese or Nazi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731Tell me again how the British are no better than the Japanese. You claim to be unbiased, you reveal yourself to simply be ignorant. Saying everyone is equally bad does not make you neutral unless everyone is actually equally bad. In this case it's not and you are factually wrong to claim otherwise. Its hard to argue that the British were worse/no batter than the Nazis since the British never set out to exterminate a race. But in terms of being a colonial power that viewed non-white people with contempt, well, that seems pretty obvious: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.htmlAnd if we are talking about the 19th century of British rule too, then its even more obvious. Japan strongly admired British imperialism and sought to emulate it at every turn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_gas_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920Unlike the Americans, whose imperialism was pretty small league after the exterminated the locals on their own continent and annexed vast portions of Mexico, the British were rapacious occupiers who had no problem grinding down dozens of peoples into semi-slavery by any means necessary. Including terror bombardment, chemical use or starvation... So your evidence that the British are comparable to the Nazis/Japanese is one article about how the British considered using gas weapons, but apparently did not. And one article showing that Churchill (allegedly), witheld aid from an Indian famine, which doesn't account for the complexities of the time: e.g the simultaneous famine in Greece. Well I'm convinced... I posted this before, but the Japanese war crimes are so terrible, extensive and well documented that it really should be required reading in this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes My point was that (a) British imperialism has caused the deaths of millions of people, just like the Japanese but (b) the British never lost a war so no English were tried for war crimes and (c) the Japanese committed their war crimes more recently and thus more publicly thanks to better technologies to record the said crimes. So for Brits, whose current wealth was built on the bones of millions of Indians, Chinese, Africans and Native Americas, to condemn Japanese for trying to do exactly the same thing is somewhat amusing. I understand that having been taught that you are always the good guys and having to acknowledge that your ancestors were genocidal imperialists is tough to accept. Just like it is for the Japanese. If Japan won the war, Harry Truman and Winston Churchill would have been tried and executed as class A war criminal. All the Japanese acts would have been justified in the name of liberating Asia and all the wrongdoings of "Allies of WWII" would have been comdemned as criminal acts. Sadly, victor writes the history. One mistake Japan made was engaging in a war that they kinda knew that they couldn't win. US or UK is no better than Japan, but they just won the war, which is what counts more than anything. Hopefully by, say, 25th century or something, human society learns from the mistakes that our or our grandparents' generation have made. Am I to take it that you think the world would be no better or worse off if Japan and the rest of the Axis had won ww2 and gone on to execute Truman and Churchill? Neither side's actions during that war were a pretty tale, but fuck's sake dude. Both sides used civilian bombing to try and disrupt the other, but only one side was practicing mass ethnic and "undesirable" cleansing, sending in soldiers to rape and kill their way through entire cities, filling entire medical units with humans to be used as guinea pigs, institutionalizing rape and the use of "comfort women", using secret police to make dissidents disappear in the middle of the night, had philosophies built upon a rejection of conventional rationality and the cultivation of racial purity, and so on. I'm not white washing the US and UK, but do you really think the world is worse off under capitalist liberal democracy than it would be under racial supremacist fascism? World in general aside, if Japan and the rest of the Axis had won ww2, then world would have been better place at least for them. Nowhere in the post did I say Japan would have made the world better if won. I am just pointing out the fact that victor has been writing history and my hope that one day history can be written by all sides if possible.
I like the idea in theory but I'd rather not have Japanese historians fiddling with our textbooks. They seem to have issues with objectivity, either that or being too stringent on evidence in areas that might embarrass Japan.
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On September 16 2012 18:15 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 18:06 Xiahou wrote:On September 16 2012 17:47 ninini wrote:On September 16 2012 15:04 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Oh come on. Show a little humanity here. You talk as if the Chinese people deserve all the war crimes just because the CCP sucks, when they actually had to deal with both. 20 million people died in China. I'm sure that's more than the entire war casualty in the history of the US. Even if the entire country wasn't occupied because it was a freaking big country with a lot of resistance, the occupied territory is way bigger than Korea itself. It's not just about the war crimes itself, it's about the dismissive attitude of the Japanese government and their insincere apologies as well as the textbook issue. Oh, and South Korea do have some major problems with Japan, and they are also exposed to some pretty heavy anti-Japan propaganda. Plus they also have their own island debate with em! (Dokudo islands) EDIT: You know what, the more I read this post the more it sounds not just ignorant but outright sinophobic. Wouldn't have expected this from a Swede... My point is, the Chinese ppl should riot against their own government, not against Japan. What harm have Japan done to anyone since WW2? You could blame them for being passive-aggressive, which I did, and I also explained why Japan have a hard time admitting fault. Just to make things clear, the japanese conservatism is not the ppl's fault, it's a democratic problem. But what about China? What have they done since the war? A lot more. Look at how they have treated their own ppl, and how they are treating North Korean refugees. And note how they fought against freedom in Vietnam and Korea, and contributed to millions of deaths. If they were so disgusted by japanese imperialism, then why did they follow in their footsteps? Well, the chinese ppl probably don't know that they were imperialists, because of their government. Instead, they have been taught that they were the ones fighting for freedom. They don't know that the only reason why they adopted communism to begin with, was because a guy named Stalin financed the party into power. Believe me, I have no preconceived opinions about asian ppl, or any other group for that matter. I don't know why you made those claims, and if you knew me, you would know that I'm very open and trusting towards different cultures. However I'm not a big fan of the Chinese government, but that's a major difference. I know a few germans, who was born there and moved to Sweden as adults, and while reading this thread it occured to me that it had never before crossed my mind that these germans (who I consider as friends), had relatives that fought in the war for Nazi Germany, or even were part of the Nazi party. The reason why this never had crossed my mind is because I don't believe that the ppl are the same as their government, and I also don't believe that anyone should be blamed for what their ancestors did, so I never saw the connection between germans living in the 00's and the nazi party. Maybe you guys should try thinking the same way. China, Korea and Japan are all victims one way or another, but unlike China, Japan have turned their backs on destructive behaviour and is trying to do good. Yes, it's true that the government of China is going in the right direction, and the sudden influx of chinese students in the swedish university I attend pleases me a lot, but China still have a long way to go before they reach Japan's standards. Rioting about what happened 70 years ago is silly and childish, and especially so in this situation, where the Chinese government have a lot more to ask for forgiveness for. On September 16 2012 15:08 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? Patently untrue. South Korea hates Japan more than any other country (China probably comes in 2nd) and naturally has huge issues over what happened in WW2 and the earlier occupations/invasions. Slurs like 'monkey' are commonplace. ......Didn't you forget a country called North Korea? North Korea is the only enemy of Japan, and the "admiration" goes both ways. South Korea don't have a major problem with Japan. That's the truth. Note that I used the adjective "major". They have collaborated with them a lot through the years, and if it weren't for Japan, South Korea wouldn't be what it is today. Obviously, there are some negative tension, given their history, but you don't see riots like this happening, and the governments are well-behaved towards eachother, which you can't say about the China/North Korea-Japan relations. ... You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. ... I only partially agree with this. The government works because the city dwellers live lives they are content with. The poor don't know better other than wanting to become rich, and no one gives a flying fuck about the poor. Also, you don't have the means to do anything against the government, so people really don't bother.
Well, that is the gist of the point that I'm trying to make. People in general don't make a big deal out of freedom, human rights and democracy in China.
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On September 16 2012 18:22 Xiahou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 18:15 Cambium wrote:On September 16 2012 18:06 Xiahou wrote:On September 16 2012 17:47 ninini wrote:On September 16 2012 15:04 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Oh come on. Show a little humanity here. You talk as if the Chinese people deserve all the war crimes just because the CCP sucks, when they actually had to deal with both. 20 million people died in China. I'm sure that's more than the entire war casualty in the history of the US. Even if the entire country wasn't occupied because it was a freaking big country with a lot of resistance, the occupied territory is way bigger than Korea itself. It's not just about the war crimes itself, it's about the dismissive attitude of the Japanese government and their insincere apologies as well as the textbook issue. Oh, and South Korea do have some major problems with Japan, and they are also exposed to some pretty heavy anti-Japan propaganda. Plus they also have their own island debate with em! (Dokudo islands) EDIT: You know what, the more I read this post the more it sounds not just ignorant but outright sinophobic. Wouldn't have expected this from a Swede... My point is, the Chinese ppl should riot against their own government, not against Japan. What harm have Japan done to anyone since WW2? You could blame them for being passive-aggressive, which I did, and I also explained why Japan have a hard time admitting fault. Just to make things clear, the japanese conservatism is not the ppl's fault, it's a democratic problem. But what about China? What have they done since the war? A lot more. Look at how they have treated their own ppl, and how they are treating North Korean refugees. And note how they fought against freedom in Vietnam and Korea, and contributed to millions of deaths. If they were so disgusted by japanese imperialism, then why did they follow in their footsteps? Well, the chinese ppl probably don't know that they were imperialists, because of their government. Instead, they have been taught that they were the ones fighting for freedom. They don't know that the only reason why they adopted communism to begin with, was because a guy named Stalin financed the party into power. Believe me, I have no preconceived opinions about asian ppl, or any other group for that matter. I don't know why you made those claims, and if you knew me, you would know that I'm very open and trusting towards different cultures. However I'm not a big fan of the Chinese government, but that's a major difference. I know a few germans, who was born there and moved to Sweden as adults, and while reading this thread it occured to me that it had never before crossed my mind that these germans (who I consider as friends), had relatives that fought in the war for Nazi Germany, or even were part of the Nazi party. The reason why this never had crossed my mind is because I don't believe that the ppl are the same as their government, and I also don't believe that anyone should be blamed for what their ancestors did, so I never saw the connection between germans living in the 00's and the nazi party. Maybe you guys should try thinking the same way. China, Korea and Japan are all victims one way or another, but unlike China, Japan have turned their backs on destructive behaviour and is trying to do good. Yes, it's true that the government of China is going in the right direction, and the sudden influx of chinese students in the swedish university I attend pleases me a lot, but China still have a long way to go before they reach Japan's standards. Rioting about what happened 70 years ago is silly and childish, and especially so in this situation, where the Chinese government have a lot more to ask for forgiveness for. On September 16 2012 15:08 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? Patently untrue. South Korea hates Japan more than any other country (China probably comes in 2nd) and naturally has huge issues over what happened in WW2 and the earlier occupations/invasions. Slurs like 'monkey' are commonplace. ......Didn't you forget a country called North Korea? North Korea is the only enemy of Japan, and the "admiration" goes both ways. South Korea don't have a major problem with Japan. That's the truth. Note that I used the adjective "major". They have collaborated with them a lot through the years, and if it weren't for Japan, South Korea wouldn't be what it is today. Obviously, there are some negative tension, given their history, but you don't see riots like this happening, and the governments are well-behaved towards eachother, which you can't say about the China/North Korea-Japan relations. ... You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. ... I only partially agree with this. The government works because the city dwellers live lives they are content with. The poor don't know better other than wanting to become rich, and no one gives a flying fuck about the poor. Also, you don't have the means to do anything against the government, so people really don't bother. Well, that is the gist of the point that I'm trying to make. People in general don't make a big deal out of freedom, human rights and democracy in China.
It has a lot to do with Confucianism. If they followed Taoism it would be as you say; more freedom/liberty, natural rights, localized weak Government. Often said Lau Tzu was the first libertarian.
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On September 16 2012 18:20 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 18:08 Orek wrote:On September 16 2012 17:44 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 16:09 Orek wrote:On September 16 2012 15:49 Sub40APM wrote:On September 16 2012 13:21 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 13:07 Sub40APM wrote:On September 16 2012 12:51 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 12:44 naastyOne wrote:
UK. The empire, that counquered ~1/5 of world, and was playing other countries to fight each other for their own gain for 2 centuries. Add the entire strategic carpet bombing of civilians. They were no better than Japanese or Nazi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731Tell me again how the British are no better than the Japanese. You claim to be unbiased, you reveal yourself to simply be ignorant. Saying everyone is equally bad does not make you neutral unless everyone is actually equally bad. In this case it's not and you are factually wrong to claim otherwise. Its hard to argue that the British were worse/no batter than the Nazis since the British never set out to exterminate a race. But in terms of being a colonial power that viewed non-white people with contempt, well, that seems pretty obvious: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.htmlAnd if we are talking about the 19th century of British rule too, then its even more obvious. Japan strongly admired British imperialism and sought to emulate it at every turn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_gas_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920Unlike the Americans, whose imperialism was pretty small league after the exterminated the locals on their own continent and annexed vast portions of Mexico, the British were rapacious occupiers who had no problem grinding down dozens of peoples into semi-slavery by any means necessary. Including terror bombardment, chemical use or starvation... So your evidence that the British are comparable to the Nazis/Japanese is one article about how the British considered using gas weapons, but apparently did not. And one article showing that Churchill (allegedly), witheld aid from an Indian famine, which doesn't account for the complexities of the time: e.g the simultaneous famine in Greece. Well I'm convinced... I posted this before, but the Japanese war crimes are so terrible, extensive and well documented that it really should be required reading in this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes My point was that (a) British imperialism has caused the deaths of millions of people, just like the Japanese but (b) the British never lost a war so no English were tried for war crimes and (c) the Japanese committed their war crimes more recently and thus more publicly thanks to better technologies to record the said crimes. So for Brits, whose current wealth was built on the bones of millions of Indians, Chinese, Africans and Native Americas, to condemn Japanese for trying to do exactly the same thing is somewhat amusing. I understand that having been taught that you are always the good guys and having to acknowledge that your ancestors were genocidal imperialists is tough to accept. Just like it is for the Japanese. If Japan won the war, Harry Truman and Winston Churchill would have been tried and executed as class A war criminal. All the Japanese acts would have been justified in the name of liberating Asia and all the wrongdoings of "Allies of WWII" would have been comdemned as criminal acts. Sadly, victor writes the history. One mistake Japan made was engaging in a war that they kinda knew that they couldn't win. US or UK is no better than Japan, but they just won the war, which is what counts more than anything. Hopefully by, say, 25th century or something, human society learns from the mistakes that our or our grandparents' generation have made. Am I to take it that you think the world would be no better or worse off if Japan and the rest of the Axis had won ww2 and gone on to execute Truman and Churchill? Neither side's actions during that war were a pretty tale, but fuck's sake dude. Both sides used civilian bombing to try and disrupt the other, but only one side was practicing mass ethnic and "undesirable" cleansing, sending in soldiers to rape and kill their way through entire cities, filling entire medical units with humans to be used as guinea pigs, institutionalizing rape and the use of "comfort women", using secret police to make dissidents disappear in the middle of the night, had philosophies built upon a rejection of conventional rationality and the cultivation of racial purity, and so on. I'm not white washing the US and UK, but do you really think the world is worse off under capitalist liberal democracy than it would be under racial supremacist fascism? World in general aside, if Japan and the rest of the Axis had won ww2, then world would have been better place at least for them. Nowhere in the post did I say Japan would have made the world better if won. I am just pointing out the fact that victor has been writing history and my hope that one day history can be written by all sides if possible. I like the idea in theory but I'd rather not have Japanese historians fiddling with our textbooks. They seem to have issues with objectivity, either that or being too stringent on evidence in areas that might embarrass Japan.
Aaand Japan thinks historians of victim side have issues with objectivity, so this goes nowhere. One day...one day...
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On September 16 2012 17:25 Eruism wrote:
I'm Chinese, but this is pretty fucking retarded. Holy shit get over the fucking past. What happened 60+ years ago is history. Jesus Christ.....
Wow this guy... lol. Pretty stupid statement to make.
I'm pretty sure only people ignorant of the issue at hand can state this.
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On September 16 2012 18:26 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 18:22 Xiahou wrote:On September 16 2012 18:15 Cambium wrote:On September 16 2012 18:06 Xiahou wrote:On September 16 2012 17:47 ninini wrote:On September 16 2012 15:04 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Oh come on. Show a little humanity here. You talk as if the Chinese people deserve all the war crimes just because the CCP sucks, when they actually had to deal with both. 20 million people died in China. I'm sure that's more than the entire war casualty in the history of the US. Even if the entire country wasn't occupied because it was a freaking big country with a lot of resistance, the occupied territory is way bigger than Korea itself. It's not just about the war crimes itself, it's about the dismissive attitude of the Japanese government and their insincere apologies as well as the textbook issue. Oh, and South Korea do have some major problems with Japan, and they are also exposed to some pretty heavy anti-Japan propaganda. Plus they also have their own island debate with em! (Dokudo islands) EDIT: You know what, the more I read this post the more it sounds not just ignorant but outright sinophobic. Wouldn't have expected this from a Swede... My point is, the Chinese ppl should riot against their own government, not against Japan. What harm have Japan done to anyone since WW2? You could blame them for being passive-aggressive, which I did, and I also explained why Japan have a hard time admitting fault. Just to make things clear, the japanese conservatism is not the ppl's fault, it's a democratic problem. But what about China? What have they done since the war? A lot more. Look at how they have treated their own ppl, and how they are treating North Korean refugees. And note how they fought against freedom in Vietnam and Korea, and contributed to millions of deaths. If they were so disgusted by japanese imperialism, then why did they follow in their footsteps? Well, the chinese ppl probably don't know that they were imperialists, because of their government. Instead, they have been taught that they were the ones fighting for freedom. They don't know that the only reason why they adopted communism to begin with, was because a guy named Stalin financed the party into power. Believe me, I have no preconceived opinions about asian ppl, or any other group for that matter. I don't know why you made those claims, and if you knew me, you would know that I'm very open and trusting towards different cultures. However I'm not a big fan of the Chinese government, but that's a major difference. I know a few germans, who was born there and moved to Sweden as adults, and while reading this thread it occured to me that it had never before crossed my mind that these germans (who I consider as friends), had relatives that fought in the war for Nazi Germany, or even were part of the Nazi party. The reason why this never had crossed my mind is because I don't believe that the ppl are the same as their government, and I also don't believe that anyone should be blamed for what their ancestors did, so I never saw the connection between germans living in the 00's and the nazi party. Maybe you guys should try thinking the same way. China, Korea and Japan are all victims one way or another, but unlike China, Japan have turned their backs on destructive behaviour and is trying to do good. Yes, it's true that the government of China is going in the right direction, and the sudden influx of chinese students in the swedish university I attend pleases me a lot, but China still have a long way to go before they reach Japan's standards. Rioting about what happened 70 years ago is silly and childish, and especially so in this situation, where the Chinese government have a lot more to ask for forgiveness for. On September 16 2012 15:08 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? Patently untrue. South Korea hates Japan more than any other country (China probably comes in 2nd) and naturally has huge issues over what happened in WW2 and the earlier occupations/invasions. Slurs like 'monkey' are commonplace. ......Didn't you forget a country called North Korea? North Korea is the only enemy of Japan, and the "admiration" goes both ways. South Korea don't have a major problem with Japan. That's the truth. Note that I used the adjective "major". They have collaborated with them a lot through the years, and if it weren't for Japan, South Korea wouldn't be what it is today. Obviously, there are some negative tension, given their history, but you don't see riots like this happening, and the governments are well-behaved towards eachother, which you can't say about the China/North Korea-Japan relations. ... You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. ... I only partially agree with this. The government works because the city dwellers live lives they are content with. The poor don't know better other than wanting to become rich, and no one gives a flying fuck about the poor. Also, you don't have the means to do anything against the government, so people really don't bother. Well, that is the gist of the point that I'm trying to make. People in general don't make a big deal out of freedom, human rights and democracy in China. It has a lot to do with Confucianism. If they followed Taoism it would be as you say; more freedom/liberty, natural rights, localized weak Government. Often said Lau Tzu was the first libertarian.
Yep, the whole Confucian obsession with rites led to the subservience of the individual to higher authority.
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O_o Imagine now u have nationalistic China as your neighbour, kinda scary ;o
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On September 16 2012 17:53 Scarecrow wrote:
No, I didn't. It's complicated how the South feels about the North and it's definitely not at the level of hate/racism that's directed at the Japanese. They see NK as a wayward part of the family but still essentially Korean (some even supported them 2nd behind SK in the Olympics). Mention of the Japanese just evokes hostility.
You should read again what I said. I said nothing about the relationship between north and south korea. What I said is that North Korea hates Japan a lot more than South Korea hates Japan, and China probably does too, although before this event I probably wouldn't have said the latter.
On September 16 2012 17:55 yandere991 wrote:Rofl at the notion that the governments of SK and Japan are "well behaved" towards each other. Funny how this article was in this weeks edition of The Economist. http://www.economist.com/node/21562239
By comparison, they are. South Korea was built on borrowed Japanese money and investments for crying out loud. They may not love eachother, but they definately seem capable of cooperating.
On September 16 2012 18:06 Xiahou wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:47 ninini wrote:On September 16 2012 15:04 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Oh come on. Show a little humanity here. You talk as if the Chinese people deserve all the war crimes just because the CCP sucks, when they actually had to deal with both. 20 million people died in China. I'm sure that's more than the entire war casualty in the history of the US. Even if the entire country wasn't occupied because it was a freaking big country with a lot of resistance, the occupied territory is way bigger than Korea itself. It's not just about the war crimes itself, it's about the dismissive attitude of the Japanese government and their insincere apologies as well as the textbook issue. Oh, and South Korea do have some major problems with Japan, and they are also exposed to some pretty heavy anti-Japan propaganda. Plus they also have their own island debate with em! (Dokudo islands) EDIT: You know what, the more I read this post the more it sounds not just ignorant but outright sinophobic. Wouldn't have expected this from a Swede... My point is, the Chinese ppl should riot against their own government, not against Japan. What harm have Japan done to anyone since WW2? You could blame them for being passive-aggressive, which I did, and I also explained why Japan have a hard time admitting fault. Just to make things clear, the japanese conservatism is not the ppl's fault, it's a democratic problem. But what about China? What have they done since the war? A lot more. Look at how they have treated their own ppl, and how they are treating North Korean refugees. And note how they fought against freedom in Vietnam and Korea, and contributed to millions of deaths. If they were so disgusted by japanese imperialism, then why did they follow in their footsteps? Well, the chinese ppl probably don't know that they were imperialists, because of their government. Instead, they have been taught that they were the ones fighting for freedom. They don't know that the only reason why they adopted communism to begin with, was because a guy named Stalin financed the party into power. Believe me, I have no preconceived opinions about asian ppl, or any other group for that matter. I don't know why you made those claims, and if you knew me, you would know that I'm very open and trusting towards different cultures. However I'm not a big fan of the Chinese government, but that's a major difference. I know a few germans, who was born there and moved to Sweden as adults, and while reading this thread it occured to me that it had never before crossed my mind that these germans (who I consider as friends), had relatives that fought in the war for Nazi Germany, or even were part of the Nazi party. The reason why this never had crossed my mind is because I don't believe that the ppl are the same as their government, and I also don't believe that anyone should be blamed for what their ancestors did, so I never saw the connection between germans living in the 00's and the nazi party. Maybe you guys should try thinking the same way. China, Korea and Japan are all victims one way or another, but unlike China, Japan have turned their backs on destructive behaviour and is trying to do good. Yes, it's true that the government of China is going in the right direction, and the sudden influx of chinese students in the swedish university I attend pleases me a lot, but China still have a long way to go before they reach Japan's standards. Rioting about what happened 70 years ago is silly and childish, and especially so in this situation, where the Chinese government have a lot more to ask for forgiveness for. On September 16 2012 15:08 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? Patently untrue. South Korea hates Japan more than any other country (China probably comes in 2nd) and naturally has huge issues over what happened in WW2 and the earlier occupations/invasions. Slurs like 'monkey' are commonplace. ......Didn't you forget a country called North Korea? North Korea is the only enemy of Japan, and the "admiration" goes both ways. South Korea don't have a major problem with Japan. That's the truth. Note that I used the adjective "major". They have collaborated with them a lot through the years, and if it weren't for Japan, South Korea wouldn't be what it is today. Obviously, there are some negative tension, given their history, but you don't see riots like this happening, and the governments are well-behaved towards eachother, which you can't say about the China/North Korea-Japan relations. Wow... You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. 90% of Chinese mainlanders I know are under no illusion that they are living in a free and democratic state. But they don't complain because no one can bring 1.3 billion people out of poverty by giving everyone a vote at the ballots. You might think that everyone in China subsists off a diet of government sanctioned history textbooks, but believe or not, they do have access to the Internet, and the joke of a 'internet firewall' is hardly adequate in the face of all the exploits and bypasses that Chinese netizens have created. In fact, I can safely say that any Chinese on the Internet will have a reasonable understanding of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the bullshit that happened in 1989. You may think I'm going off on a tangent here, but I'm really trying to make the point that if the Chinese are not doing anything against the government, it's not for lack of knowledge or anything of that sort. It's condescending to think that we know more about some things that happened in their own country than them because we supposedly have 'freedom' to information.
Why make a statement like that, when you don't even try to dispel any of my claims. If I'm really clueless, please educate me. That's the point of debates. This seems to be a really loaded subject, I guess a result of this is that a lot of ppl here are reading too much into what others are saying and skewing words.
I'm guessing what you reacted on was that I possibly exaggerated how much the Chinese ppl knows about history, but if they really know as much as we do, they have even more reasons to be discontent with their own government, and although their attacks on Japan are understandable, these ppl really should direct their anger at their own government, which is a much greater offender than Japan, especially these days.
Anyway, I agree completely that even if the majority wants it, China will not change dramatically overnight. Russia is still struggling, and it will not be any easier for China.
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lol before japan got bitchy XD HAHAHAHAHAHA
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free Tibet, boycott China!
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EPT
