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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 16:11 glzElectromaster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:29 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 13:21 semantics wrote:On September 16 2012 13:09 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote:
So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men. The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation. let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless. So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes? Dead men and dead governments =p I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed. Woah. No one likes Tojo in Japan. No one likes Class A war criminals, but Extreme right wing. The emperor is merely a "symbol" a stick figure. The Japanese are proud of their army-less constitution. Veterans I've met tell stories of how the war was absolutely terrible for everyone, and that they never want to be involved in it again. Idk if you've ever really talked to a huge Japanese populous, but nationalism in Japan is VERY WEAK compared to that in the US and China. We don't sing songs like "I'm proud to be an American". Although I agree about the ambiguous self-pity, it's mostly because the people of Japan are somewhat detached from the government -although they listen to them well, they don't recognize that it's really them. Again, it wasn't a democracy where the people have the most voice. Rather, it was the nobles and the cadets. Idk about museums, but I do agree WW2 should be taught more in detail in school (and of course accurately). Even though its a democracy now, that same feeling towards the government still exists. Thus it creates more problems because the populous is not throughly educated about it. Edit: I also agree with you about the realization and the shrine, at least for the most part. My family is a fairly liberal family, and my mother taught me in elementary school that it was a good thing we lost the war. In fact, I was fortunate many people around me thought the same way. The people who are decently educated in history do acknowledge that the militarism that took over Japan during that time was pure insanity, and are glad that that's gone. About Yasukuni Shrine, there has been a talk about separating the war criminals for decades, but for some reason the shrine doesn't agree with it. Also, the fact that the government is not supposed to intervene with religion also makes it more complicated. My suspicion is that the shrine is entangled with a right wing group...
About Yasukuni Shrine, I mentioned it before but a right-wing group basically bribed the shrine to enshrine the war criminals without the consent of the government. The government tried to get the shrine to remove the souls but apparently it's impossible to remove the souls now in respects to Shinto.
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Can't click on the wiki page for Unit 731 anymore. Shit fucks with your humanity. Reading that stuff defiles all hope.
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On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though.
Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan?
'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan.
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On September 16 2012 16:34 ShadeR wrote:
Can't click on the wiki page for Unit 731 anymore. Shit fucks with your humanity. Reading that stuff defiles all hope.
Worst part was that there was no justice for this, I don't think anyone was held accountable for that shit.
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On September 16 2012 16:35 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:34 ShadeR wrote:
Can't click on the wiki page for Unit 731 anymore. Shit fucks with your humanity. Reading that stuff defiles all hope. Worst part was that there was no justice for this, I don't think anyone was held accountable for that shit.
Yeah pretty sad.One of the most disgusting event if not the worst i have ever read on " human experimentation ".
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan.
? They're native Japanese. I asked one friend from Okinawa, one friend from Hiroshima, and one friend from Tokyo. They learned about it. Still want to call bullshit? You're basing your claims on what exactly?
Hell, if you want, I'll ask ten more people.
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On September 16 2012 16:37 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:35 Taku wrote:On September 16 2012 16:34 ShadeR wrote:
Can't click on the wiki page for Unit 731 anymore. Shit fucks with your humanity. Reading that stuff defiles all hope. Worst part was that there was no justice for this, I don't think anyone was held accountable for that shit. Yeah pretty sad.One of the most disgusting event if not the worst i have ever read on " human experimentation ".
I remember reading somewhere that instead of justice the sick fucks at the top of Unit 731 became heads of medicine in post war Japan or someshit. Don't quote me on that though i haven't the heart to go fact check it =_=
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On the anniversary of Japan's surrender in World War II, two cabinet ministers have visited a controversial shrine honouring the country's war dead, including 14 leading war criminals.
Yasukini Shrine honors everyone that fought and died in the war. It's like the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, without the names. There aren't pictures of "Leading War Criminals" hung around the place that people can pray to. People that go there go to honor their dead relatives. Like dead brothers and fathers.
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On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan.
Not all schools use the same textbooks. Some teach about it, some do not. I am fairly certain most Japanese people know about these war crimes, but they probably do not know details.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 16:47 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan. Not all schools use the same textbooks. Some teach about it, some do not. I am fairly certain most Japanese people know about these war crimes, but they probably do not know details.
From what I know there are only a handful of schools that don't teach it. There are, however, more that do not go over it in too much detail (going from what glzElectromaster and my friends are telling me).
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On September 16 2012 16:38 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan. ? They're native Japanese. I asked one friend from Okinawa, one friend from Hiroshima, and one friend from Tokyo. They learned about it. Still want to call bullshit? You're basing your claims on what exactly?
Having lived and worked in Japan. Having spoken to friends and family who have lived and worked in Japan. Having relatives who have lived and worked in Japan for over 30 years. I'm not saying you're a liar, nor that your claims are any less valid than mine just because I've had more 'exposure' to Japan. But speaking to three individuals who seem to contradict the general notion that Japan has omitted and outright denied facts about their war atrocities raised some skepticism on my part. That's not crazy, is it? Like I said, you found a 'minority'. Unless of course the facts they were given about the events are skewed, which is yet another common notion.
Edit:
On September 16 2012 16:47 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan. Not all schools use the same textbooks. Some teach about it, some do not. I am fairly certain most Japanese people know about these war crimes, but they probably do not know details.
Yeah, that fact completely agrees with my experiences.
Hell, if you want, I'll ask ten more people.
For every person you can find that knows the complete truth, with no omissions or skewed facts, I can find more who believe that the Rape of Nanking is 'propaganda' by the Chinese. That all the facts, including first-hand accounts and statements from both Chinese and Allied (Canadian, American and British) are all a manipulation. I can find more who believe that the comfort women in China, Korea, the Philippines, and several other South East Asian nations were 'willing', because the Japanese army provided them with money and protection during wartime. I can find more who believe Unit 731 was a 'radical faction', that they conducted their horrifying, dehumanizing experiments without the consent of the Imperial Japanese Army or the Japanese government, despite the fact that the unit was established by the Kempeitai, or that most of the scientists involved in the unit moved on to successful careers in politics, business or academia.
Again, in no way did I mean to belittle your statement, I simply meant to inform you that there's a lot more under the surface. I'm not saying that the Japanese are inherently evil, or whatever, and that ALL of them refuse to acknowledge the atrocities. I'm saying that it's not their fault that they are being told lies or skewed facts, but it still happens to this day.
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On September 16 2012 16:52 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:38 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan. ? They're native Japanese. I asked one friend from Okinawa, one friend from Hiroshima, and one friend from Tokyo. They learned about it. Still want to call bullshit? You're basing your claims on what exactly? Having lived and worked in Japan. Having spoken to friends and family who have lived and worked in Japan. Having relatives who have lived and worked in Japan for over 30 years. I'm not saying you're a liar, nor that your claims are any less valid than mine just because I've had more 'exposure' to Japan. But speaking to three individuals who seem to contradict the general notion that Japan has omitted and outright denied facts about their war atrocities raised some skepticism on my part. That's not crazy, is it? Like I said, you found a 'minority'. Unless of course the facts they were given about the events are skewed, which is yet another common notion.
Yea I think that's the part you two are arguing about. They definitely don't go over them in details.
At the same time, I feel that the Chinese government is doing too much to foment hatred towards Japan. I learned about the war atrocities the Japanese army committed since Grade 1. Hatred towards Japan is pretty much ingrained in every child's brain, and therefore it's never too much trouble finding enough citizens for these kinds of anti-Japan demonstrations.
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On September 16 2012 16:47 Cambium wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan. Not all schools use the same textbooks. Some teach about it, some do not. I am fairly certain most Japanese people know about these war crimes, but they probably do not know details.
Yeah. It's probably very similar to how most of us Americans know about the genocide of Native Americans, and the Japanese internment, but don't know the details.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 16:52 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:38 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan. ? They're native Japanese. I asked one friend from Okinawa, one friend from Hiroshima, and one friend from Tokyo. They learned about it. Still want to call bullshit? You're basing your claims on what exactly? Having lived and worked in Japan. Having spoken to friends and family who have lived and worked in Japan. Having relatives who have lived and worked in Japan for over 30 years. I'm not saying you're a liar, nor that your claims are any less valid than mine just because I've had more 'exposure' to Japan. But speaking to three individuals who seem to contradict the general notion that Japan has omitted and outright denied facts about their war atrocities raised some skepticism on my part. That's not crazy, is it? Like I said, you found a 'minority'. Unless of course the facts they were given about the events are skewed, which is yet another common notion. Edit: Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:47 Cambium wrote:On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan. Not all schools use the same textbooks. Some teach about it, some do not. I am fairly certain most Japanese people know about these war crimes, but they probably do not know details. Yeah, that fact completely agrees with my experiences.
Take into consideration that the friends I am talking to are college students who didn't graduate from high school that long ago. It could be different now. I just asked another friend and he said 'of course' he learned about war crimes, but he also admitted that there are schools out there that do not go into too much detail about the atrocities.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 16:55 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:47 Cambium wrote:On September 16 2012 16:35 Xpace wrote:On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though. Are these Japanese friends of yours currently living outside Japan? 'Cause if you claim that they're native Japanese, who were born and have lived in Japan all their lives, and studied in Japanese schools (not International schools with a western curriculum), I'm calling bullshit. Either you've found a rare species of Japanese, or their facts about the Rape of Nanking are horribly skewed. I have Japanese friends who know the real facts, to the full extent, and they were educated outside Japan. Not all schools use the same textbooks. Some teach about it, some do not. I am fairly certain most Japanese people know about these war crimes, but they probably do not know details. Yeah. It's probably very similar to how most of us Americans know about the genocide of Native Americans, and the Japanese internment, but don't know the details.
It's ridiculous how little we learn about Native Americans. Also ridiculous how little we learn about the Middle East.
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As someone living in China currently, I can tell you that the average person that I've spoken to is in no way concerned about these islands (at least where I am). I also haven't heard any prevalent Japanese sentiment, no more so than usual at least.
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On September 16 2012 16:30 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:11 glzElectromaster wrote:On September 16 2012 13:29 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 13:21 semantics wrote:On September 16 2012 13:09 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote:
So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men. The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation. let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless. So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes? Dead men and dead governments =p I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed. Woah. No one likes Tojo in Japan. No one likes Class A war criminals, but Extreme right wing. The emperor is merely a "symbol" a stick figure. The Japanese are proud of their army-less constitution. Veterans I've met tell stories of how the war was absolutely terrible for everyone, and that they never want to be involved in it again. Idk if you've ever really talked to a huge Japanese populous, but nationalism in Japan is VERY WEAK compared to that in the US and China. We don't sing songs like "I'm proud to be an American". Although I agree about the ambiguous self-pity, it's mostly because the people of Japan are somewhat detached from the government -although they listen to them well, they don't recognize that it's really them. Again, it wasn't a democracy where the people have the most voice. Rather, it was the nobles and the cadets. Idk about museums, but I do agree WW2 should be taught more in detail in school (and of course accurately). Even though its a democracy now, that same feeling towards the government still exists. Thus it creates more problems because the populous is not throughly educated about it. Edit: I also agree with you about the realization and the shrine, at least for the most part. My family is a fairly liberal family, and my mother taught me in elementary school that it was a good thing we lost the war. In fact, I was fortunate many people around me thought the same way. The people who are decently educated in history do acknowledge that the militarism that took over Japan during that time was pure insanity, and are glad that that's gone. About Yasukuni Shrine, there has been a talk about separating the war criminals for decades, but for some reason the shrine doesn't agree with it. Also, the fact that the government is not supposed to intervene with religion also makes it more complicated. My suspicion is that the shrine is entangled with a right wing group... About Yasukuni Shrine, I mentioned it before but a right-wing group basically bribed the shrine to enshrine the war criminals without the consent of the government. The government tried to get the shrine to remove the souls but apparently it's impossible to remove the souls now in respects to Shinto.
On Yasukuni Shrine:
China, Korea or any other country for that matter had not condemned Japan when Japanese Prime Minister or any member of cabinet went to Yasukuni Shrine until 1985, 40 years from the end of WWII. A relatively anti-government left wing newspaper in Japan all of a sudden released an article on August 7th 1985 that condemned Prime Minister of Japan at the time for going to Yasukuni. It is only after that article that China and Korea started to condemn Japan everytime Yasukuni came up supposedly because they gained "political card." 12 Prime Ministers went to Yasukuni between 1945 and 1985, totalling 60 times. No actions were made from these countries during that time. China and Korea merely gained what is called "history card" in diplomacy from that article and started to use it from 1985 to gain an edge on diplomacy.
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On September 16 2012 17:03 blacksheepwall wrote:
As someone living in China currently, I can tell you that the average person that I've spoken to is in no way concerned about these islands (at least where I am). I also haven't heard any prevalent Japanese sentiment, no more so than usual at least.
That's funny, because anti-Japanese demonstrations are blowing up in Changsha, Tsingdao and Wuhan. Current loss of assets amount to something ridiculous like 2.95 billion Yuan. I don't think there's ever been this much civil unrest in China since 1989.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 16:52 Xpace wrote:
For every person you can find that knows the complete truth, with no omissions or skewed facts, I can find more who believe that the Rape of Nanking is 'propaganda' by the Chinese. That all the facts, including first-hand accounts and statements from both Chinese and Allied (Canadian, American and British) are all a manipulation. I can find more who believe that the comfort women in China, Korea, the Philippines, and several other South East Asian nations were 'willing', because the Japanese army provided them with money and protection during wartime. I can find more who believe Unit 731 was a 'radical faction', that they conducted their horrifying, dehumanizing experiments without the consent of the Imperial Japanese Army or the Japanese government, despite the fact that the unit was established by the Kempeitai, or that most of the scientists involved in the unit moved on to successful careers in politics, business or academia.
Again, in no way did I mean to belittle your statement, I simply meant to inform you that there's a lot more under the surface. I'm not saying that the Japanese are inherently evil, or whatever, and that ALL of them refuse to acknowledge the atrocities. I'm saying that it's not their fault that they are being told lies or skewed facts, but it still happens to this day.
I don't believe many Japanese people know the truth about Unit 731. That point I concede. The Rape of Nanking and the comfort women are different though, considering the Japanese government has apologized on numerous occasions to comfort women and paid reparations (though there have been some recent idiot politicians out there undoing all of the apologizing). Do the Japanese learn enough about the Rape of Nanking and comfort women, however? I would agree no, they do not. But you're crazy if you think all these kids think Rape of Nanking is propaganda.
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EPT
