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On September 16 2012 15:12 yandere991 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 15:00 tuho12345 wrote:On September 16 2012 14:55 yandere991 wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Anyway, the problem with Japan and them having denial about their history stems from the fact that politics in Japan is more or less hereditary. It's basically the same families that rule now, that ruled during WW2. Japan is very conservative, so things will not change until they get some new blood into the parliament. One of the few things that brings most Asians together is their hate for Japan, SK is no exception. Right now I think they hate China more than Japan imo. Chinese nowadays just goes around and pick anything and claim it is their shit. There is a company who copy iphone 5, call it Goophone and basically now they wanna sue apple for copying their product. What a shame. Nah, Korea is also claiming the islands I'm pretty sure they hate China and Japan equally. Everyone in Asia hates each other with intensity and the direction of the hate changing rapidly. Makes me want to call my parents and thank them again for leaving that region.
Just to be clear, Korea (both North and South) has never claimed Diaoyu(Chinese name)/Senkaku(Japanese name) Islands, which Japan currently controls.
Korea has another territorial dispute vs Japan over Dokdo(Korean name)/Takeshima(Japanese name), which South Korea currently controls.
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On September 16 2012 15:26 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 15:12 yandere991 wrote:On September 16 2012 15:00 tuho12345 wrote:On September 16 2012 14:55 yandere991 wrote:On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Anyway, the problem with Japan and them having denial about their history stems from the fact that politics in Japan is more or less hereditary. It's basically the same families that rule now, that ruled during WW2. Japan is very conservative, so things will not change until they get some new blood into the parliament. One of the few things that brings most Asians together is their hate for Japan, SK is no exception. Right now I think they hate China more than Japan imo. Chinese nowadays just goes around and pick anything and claim it is their shit. There is a company who copy iphone 5, call it Goophone and basically now they wanna sue apple for copying their product. What a shame. Nah, Korea is also claiming the islands I'm pretty sure they hate China and Japan equally. Everyone in Asia hates each other with intensity and the direction of the hate changing rapidly. Makes me want to call my parents and thank them again for leaving that region. Just to be clear, Korea (both North and South) has never claimed Diaoyu(Chinese name)/Senkaku(Japanese name) Islands, which Japan currently controls. Korea has another territorial dispute vs Japan over Dokdo(Korean name)/Takeshima(Japanese name), which South Korea currently controls.
My bad was thinking of another set of islands. Everyone claims everything it is confusing.
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On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Anyway, the problem with Japan and them having denial about their history stems from the fact that politics in Japan is more or less hereditary. It's basically the same families that rule now, that ruled during WW2. Japan is very conservative, so things will not change until they get some new blood into the parliament.
Wouldn't have expected a swede to show such ignorance too.
Various posters have already refuted your points, or in fact pretty much every point in the first paragraph, so I won't bother on that count.
Secondly, I do not believe it's about hereditary politics. In fact, imo quite a lot of Japanese have a long ingrained dismissive nature, an apathetic aspect to their lives that is also visible in some media. i'm not trying to over-generalize or stereotype here, but it is what I have gathered from my interactions with Japanese culture and the people themselves from my trips there.
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On September 16 2012 12:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:44 naastyOne wrote:
UK. The empire, that counquered ~1/5 of world, and was playing other countries to fight each other for their own gain for 2 centuries. Add the entire strategic carpet bombing of civilians. They were no better than Japanese or Nazi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731Tell me again how the British are no better than the Japanese. You claim to be unbiased, you reveal yourself to simply be ignorant. Saying everyone is equally bad does not make you neutral unless everyone is actually equally bad. In this case it's not and you are factually wrong to claim otherwise.
While the British didn't engage in outright human experimentation they are not blameless at all. There is a large chunk of responsibility of every colonising power in Europe for the native American genocide (perhaps the largest in history), the genocide of the native abroginies in Australia, the atrocities in the suppression of the Indian mutiny, the overthrow of Mossadeqh in Iran, the destruction of Africa, the opium wars in China. This list goes on and on.
None of these things is as a single act worse than what the Japanese did. But the period of time, and the absolute pervasity of the actions actually made it worse in my opinion. Nanking and the whole of ww2 was such a mark on all of humanity because of the breadth and depth of the actions, and the intensity of horrors. This is why the Holocaust hurts the soul of humanity. But neither are beyond the Ken of human imagination in any significant way.
As a Pakistani and American, I will never forgive my country of birth for the genocide in Bangladesh and the oppression in Baluchistan. I will also never move on from the use of nuclear weapons on defensless people by my adopted country and the wars in Vietnam and the support of the Shah. But these are things that both culture accept happened, they are contrite, and so there is a way to reconcile across the chasm of hate.
Japan did some really evil things but they never really reconciled with the truth of their actions. They only reached out to the victims in meaningless ways. Shit, they didn't even get rid of their monarchy. Its like the third Reich stayed in power and said "whoops" and all the victims were expected to move on.
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Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up.
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Videos are up.
Some of this shit is crazy.
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On September 16 2012 13:21 Tal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:07 Sub40APM wrote:On September 16 2012 12:51 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 12:44 naastyOne wrote:
UK. The empire, that counquered ~1/5 of world, and was playing other countries to fight each other for their own gain for 2 centuries. Add the entire strategic carpet bombing of civilians. They were no better than Japanese or Nazi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731Tell me again how the British are no better than the Japanese. You claim to be unbiased, you reveal yourself to simply be ignorant. Saying everyone is equally bad does not make you neutral unless everyone is actually equally bad. In this case it's not and you are factually wrong to claim otherwise. Its hard to argue that the British were worse/no batter than the Nazis since the British never set out to exterminate a race. But in terms of being a colonial power that viewed non-white people with contempt, well, that seems pretty obvious: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.htmlAnd if we are talking about the 19th century of British rule too, then its even more obvious. Japan strongly admired British imperialism and sought to emulate it at every turn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_gas_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920Unlike the Americans, whose imperialism was pretty small league after the exterminated the locals on their own continent and annexed vast portions of Mexico, the British were rapacious occupiers who had no problem grinding down dozens of peoples into semi-slavery by any means necessary. Including terror bombardment, chemical use or starvation... So your evidence that the British are comparable to the Nazis/Japanese is one article about how the British considered using gas weapons, but apparently did not. And one article showing that Churchill (allegedly), witheld aid from an Indian famine, which doesn't account for the complexities of the time: e.g the simultaneous famine in Greece. Well I'm convinced... I posted this before, but the Japanese war crimes are so terrible, extensive and well documented that it really should be required reading in this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
My point was that (a) British imperialism has caused the deaths of millions of people, just like the Japanese but (b) the British never lost a war so no English were tried for war crimes and (c) the Japanese committed their war crimes more recently and thus more publicly thanks to better technologies to record the said crimes. So for Brits, whose current wealth was built on the bones of millions of Indians, Chinese, Africans and Native Americas, to condemn Japanese for trying to do exactly the same thing is somewhat amusing. I understand that having been taught that you are always the good guys and having to acknowledge that your ancestors were genocidal imperialists is tough to accept. Just like it is for the Japanese.
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On September 16 2012 07:20 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:08 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:04 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:00 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 06:57 Silencioseu wrote:
Can someone explain me why EXACTLY do they protest against Japan? Because Japan invaded China and killed/raped indiscriminately for 20 years? So we dwell on the past and dont move on? Japan got 2 nukes, lost tons of territory. Keeps getting insulted by Korean/Chinese politicians. They get threatened by military powers and are unable to fight back because they dont have a military itself anymore. Dont you think its TIME TO MOVE ON? Oh no they're getting insulted by politicians, what a pain those Japanese have to suffer through. Japan hasn't even apologized for it and China officially has moved on, it just wants its islands back ( which the Japanese took, the USA got control over and then gave to Japan for cold war political purposes), how does asking for its islands back have anything to do with MOVING ON? So if China took Hawaii while it's strong and held in for 50 years. You would just tell your mad friends to MOVE ON? Um, no. Japan has apologized extensively for its crimes. Whether it has shown sensitivity and respect for its past crimes is a different issue from official apologies. Looking at the scale of the protests and what Chinese politicians are saying about it, it is China that has not moved on. And let's not bullshit about the Senkaku Islands. This has nothing to do with history or tradition or honor. It has everything to do with the fact that there might be oil in the maritime territory around the island.
... You are shitting me right? Read the link that you posted. Here, i will even post a part of it to you:
one comfort woman from Taiwan stated, "It’s unacceptable that the Japanese government still refuses to apologize for what it did." President Ma Ying-jeou also declared, "It is the responsibility of the Japanese government to admit its mistakes and apologize... The battle is not over yet and it is regretful that the Japanese government still refuses to face its mistakes."
Has you ever considered... that the Japanese ONLY apologized to the Americans? They did not apologize to China. Wait, whats the possibility that they forgot about China? That it never crossed their minds to apologize? Oh wait, they did think about it. And guess what? They chose not to apologize, and instead apologize to another faction who beat them up. This is stupid, and for the people who are struggling to understand the scale of the Japanese invasion, they killed between 10-20 million people, and we have people in this thread arguing China has to 'get over it'. Why don't Japan 'get over it' and issue an apology not made by some crappy ambassador in China, an apology that every citizen in China acknowledges?
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On September 16 2012 15:51 SEA KarMa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:20 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 07:08 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:04 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:00 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 06:57 Silencioseu wrote:
Can someone explain me why EXACTLY do they protest against Japan? Because Japan invaded China and killed/raped indiscriminately for 20 years? So we dwell on the past and dont move on? Japan got 2 nukes, lost tons of territory. Keeps getting insulted by Korean/Chinese politicians. They get threatened by military powers and are unable to fight back because they dont have a military itself anymore. Dont you think its TIME TO MOVE ON? Oh no they're getting insulted by politicians, what a pain those Japanese have to suffer through. Japan hasn't even apologized for it and China officially has moved on, it just wants its islands back ( which the Japanese took, the USA got control over and then gave to Japan for cold war political purposes), how does asking for its islands back have anything to do with MOVING ON? So if China took Hawaii while it's strong and held in for 50 years. You would just tell your mad friends to MOVE ON? Um, no. Japan has apologized extensively for its crimes. Whether it has shown sensitivity and respect for its past crimes is a different issue from official apologies. Looking at the scale of the protests and what Chinese politicians are saying about it, it is China that has not moved on. And let's not bullshit about the Senkaku Islands. This has nothing to do with history or tradition or honor. It has everything to do with the fact that there might be oil in the maritime territory around the island. ... You are shitting me right? Read the link that you posted. Here, i will even post a part of it to you: one comfort woman from Taiwan stated, "It’s unacceptable that the Japanese government still refuses to apologize for what it did." President Ma Ying-jeou also declared, "It is the responsibility of the Japanese government to admit its mistakes and apologize... The battle is not over yet and it is regretful that the Japanese government still refuses to face its mistakes." Has you ever considered... that the Japanese ONLY apologized to the Americans? They did not apologize to China. Wait, whats the possibility that they forgot about China? That it never crossed their minds to apologize? Oh wait, they did think about it. And guess what? They chose not to apologize, and instead apologize to another faction who beat them up. This is stupid, and for the people who are struggling to understand the scale of the Japanese invasion, they killed between 10-20 million people, and we have people in this thread arguing China has to 'get over it'. Why don't Japan 'get over it' and issue an apology not made by some crappy ambassador in China, an apology that every citizen in China acknowledges?
^^
How hard can it be for the Japanese Emperor to come on the record, and instead of saying just that he feels sincere regret for all the loss Asian nations incurred during WW2, to actually take it like a man, and state that the Japanese nation is responsible for said atrocities and is willing to do whatever it takes to contribute to East Asian peace so that it will never commit said atrocities in the future?
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On September 16 2012 15:51 SEA KarMa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:20 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 07:08 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:04 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:00 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 06:57 Silencioseu wrote:
Can someone explain me why EXACTLY do they protest against Japan? Because Japan invaded China and killed/raped indiscriminately for 20 years? So we dwell on the past and dont move on? Japan got 2 nukes, lost tons of territory. Keeps getting insulted by Korean/Chinese politicians. They get threatened by military powers and are unable to fight back because they dont have a military itself anymore. Dont you think its TIME TO MOVE ON? Oh no they're getting insulted by politicians, what a pain those Japanese have to suffer through. Japan hasn't even apologized for it and China officially has moved on, it just wants its islands back ( which the Japanese took, the USA got control over and then gave to Japan for cold war political purposes), how does asking for its islands back have anything to do with MOVING ON? So if China took Hawaii while it's strong and held in for 50 years. You would just tell your mad friends to MOVE ON? Um, no. Japan has apologized extensively for its crimes. Whether it has shown sensitivity and respect for its past crimes is a different issue from official apologies. Looking at the scale of the protests and what Chinese politicians are saying about it, it is China that has not moved on. And let's not bullshit about the Senkaku Islands. This has nothing to do with history or tradition or honor. It has everything to do with the fact that there might be oil in the maritime territory around the island. ... You are shitting me right? Read the link that you posted. Here, i will even post a part of it to you: one comfort woman from Taiwan stated, "It’s unacceptable that the Japanese government still refuses to apologize for what it did." President Ma Ying-jeou also declared, "It is the responsibility of the Japanese government to admit its mistakes and apologize... The battle is not over yet and it is regretful that the Japanese government still refuses to face its mistakes." Has you ever considered... that the Japanese ONLY apologized to the Americans? They did not apologize to China. Wait, whats the possibility that they forgot about China? That it never crossed their minds to apologize? Oh wait, they did think about it. And guess what? They chose not to apologize, and instead apologize to another faction who beat them up. This is stupid, and for the people who are struggling to understand the scale of the Japanese invasion, they killed between 10-20 million people, and we have people in this thread arguing China has to 'get over it'. Why don't Japan 'get over it' and issue an apology not made by some crappy ambassador in China, an apology that every citizen in China acknowledges?
Did you read the entire article, not just the reception part?
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On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications.
Agreed completely.
While I'm not condoning everything the Chinese are currently doing, I certainly understand where their resentment of the Japanese comes from. Like you said, I'm not expecting Japanese descendents to pay for the crimes of generations past, but some acknowledgement and formal apology is definitely warranted.
The same can be said for the Turkish government but that's a separate discussion.
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On September 16 2012 11:59 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that). Exhume the war criminals and throw the remains in the sea and then you can honour the war dead without any controversy. Of course, considering the complicity of the entire Japanese army in the war crimes in a way that no civilised nation has been (including the German army in WWII) you might just have to exhume the lot of them. Then ask yourself why you're doing this and you'll realise that the root of the problem was Japanese nationalism and the diseased sense of entitlement that made it permissible to rape, murder and pillage as a national doctrine. The atomic bomb debate aside, it left Japan with a strange sense of self pity and wounded pride. What I would like Japan to realise is that their defeat in World War II was a good thing, for humanity, for civilisation, for the basic moral foundations of every society and for the soul of the Japanese people. That they should be utterly appalled by Imperial Japan and frankly grateful that there existed powers in the world sufficiently strong and sufficiently noble to stop them before they did even more damage. It's hard for a patriotic people to understand that they're the bad guys and harder still if their reason for being the bad guys was rooted in national pride but until they get over that they'll keep pissing people off.
I concur with this.
Exactly my thoughts.
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On September 16 2012 15:49 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:21 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 13:07 Sub40APM wrote:On September 16 2012 12:51 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 12:44 naastyOne wrote:
UK. The empire, that counquered ~1/5 of world, and was playing other countries to fight each other for their own gain for 2 centuries. Add the entire strategic carpet bombing of civilians. They were no better than Japanese or Nazi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731Tell me again how the British are no better than the Japanese. You claim to be unbiased, you reveal yourself to simply be ignorant. Saying everyone is equally bad does not make you neutral unless everyone is actually equally bad. In this case it's not and you are factually wrong to claim otherwise. Its hard to argue that the British were worse/no batter than the Nazis since the British never set out to exterminate a race. But in terms of being a colonial power that viewed non-white people with contempt, well, that seems pretty obvious: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.htmlAnd if we are talking about the 19th century of British rule too, then its even more obvious. Japan strongly admired British imperialism and sought to emulate it at every turn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_gas_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920Unlike the Americans, whose imperialism was pretty small league after the exterminated the locals on their own continent and annexed vast portions of Mexico, the British were rapacious occupiers who had no problem grinding down dozens of peoples into semi-slavery by any means necessary. Including terror bombardment, chemical use or starvation... So your evidence that the British are comparable to the Nazis/Japanese is one article about how the British considered using gas weapons, but apparently did not. And one article showing that Churchill (allegedly), witheld aid from an Indian famine, which doesn't account for the complexities of the time: e.g the simultaneous famine in Greece. Well I'm convinced... I posted this before, but the Japanese war crimes are so terrible, extensive and well documented that it really should be required reading in this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes My point was that (a) British imperialism has caused the deaths of millions of people, just like the Japanese but (b) the British never lost a war so no English were tried for war crimes and (c) the Japanese committed their war crimes more recently and thus more publicly thanks to better technologies to record the said crimes. So for Brits, whose current wealth was built on the bones of millions of Indians, Chinese, Africans and Native Americas, to condemn Japanese for trying to do exactly the same thing is somewhat amusing. I understand that having been taught that you are always the good guys and having to acknowledge that your ancestors were genocidal imperialists is tough to accept. Just like it is for the Japanese.
If Japan won the war, Harry Truman and Winston Churchill would have been tried and executed as class A war criminal. All the Japanese acts would have been justified in the name of liberating Asia and all the wrongdoings of "Allies of WWII" would have been comdemned as criminal acts. Sadly, victor writes the history. One mistake Japan made was engaging in a war that they kinda knew that they couldn't win. US or UK is no better than Japan, but they just won the war, which is what counts more than anything. Hopefully by, say, 25th century or something, human society learns from the mistakes that our or our grandparents' generation have made.
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On September 16 2012 13:29 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:21 semantics wrote:On September 16 2012 13:09 KwarK wrote:On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote:
So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men. The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation. let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless. So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes? Dead men and dead governments =p I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed.
Woah. No one likes Tojo in Japan. No one likes Class A war criminals, but Extreme right wing. The emperor is merely a "symbol" a stick figure. The Japanese are proud of their army-less constitution. Veterans I've met tell stories of how the war was absolutely terrible for everyone, and that they never want to be involved in it again. Idk if you've ever really talked to a huge Japanese populous, but nationalism in Japan is VERY WEAK compared to that in the US and China. We don't sing songs like "I'm proud to be an American". Although I agree about the ambiguous self-pity, it's mostly because the people of Japan are somewhat detached from the government -although they listen to them well, they don't recognize that it's really them. Again, it wasn't a democracy where the people have the most voice. Rather, it was the nobles and the cadets. Idk about museums, but I do agree WW2 should be taught more in detail in school (and of course accurately).
Even though its a democracy now, that same feeling towards the government still exists. Thus it creates more problems because the populous is not throughly educated about it.
Edit: I also agree with you about the realization and the shrine, at least for the most part. My family is a fairly liberal family, and my mother taught me in elementary school that it was a good thing we lost the war. In fact, I was fortunate many people around me thought the same way. The people who are decently educated in history do acknowledge that the militarism that took over Japan during that time was pure insanity, and are glad that that's gone. About Yasukuni Shrine, there has been a talk about separating the war criminals for decades, but for some reason the shrine doesn't agree with it. Also, the fact that the government is not supposed to intervene with religion also makes it more complicated. My suspicion is that the shrine is entangled with a right wing group...
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No country is innocent.
This just seems like an excuse to cause havoc.
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I keep wondering how these protests are going to affect the insurance rates for Japanese businesses and owners of Japanese cars in the future.
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On September 16 2012 14:52 ninini wrote:
You have to remember that it's the ppl, not the chinese government that is responsible. But it's just childish. If Japan owes any country an apology, it's Korea, both south and north. Atleast they didn't occupy the entire country of China. South Korea doesn't have a major problem with Japan, so why China? China is pretty much the last country that would have the right to complain about others. It makes you wonder how much anti-japan propaganda they must have been exposed to. It's quite sad actually.
Anyway, the problem with Japan and them having denial about their history stems from the fact that politics in Japan is more or less hereditary. It's basically the same families that rule now, that ruled during WW2. Japan is very conservative, so things will not change until they get some new blood into the parliament.
Read up on the Rape of Nanking. Or comfort women in the Philippines. Or Unit 731. Or pretty much anything the Japanese did in Asia back then. How can you sit there saying they don't owe China an apology? It's like saying only the Jews got screwed during the Holocaust, since the gypsies and the homosexuals didn't get it as bad. Seriously?
Japan refuses to even acknowledge these events, even in the 21st century. They refuse to put these facts in their history books, yet they never hesitate to bring up Hiroshima and Nagasaki; they victimize themselves while ignoring their own crimes - it's pitiful to be honest.
Every time there's an incident with a US military personnel in Japan, they cry out against America, their "foreign barbarian occupiers". I remember attending my friends wedding in Japan, there was a then-recent incident of a US soldier beating up an Okinawan man; the media completely flipped the story to make it seem like a hate crime by the soldier. Then two weeks later, North Korea launches their Kwangmyongsong-2 missile, and fragments were reported to have landed in Japanese waters by TBS (Tokyo Broadcasting System) and NHK (The country's main broadcast channel), who praised America for their "immediate, alert response in arming their AEGIS systems; the Americans had also provided the adequate training to JSDF personnel". These are the same channels that aired anti-American bullshit for weeks following the Okinawa incident.
Same shit happened a year later. Same old anti-American sentiments when the US further expanded their military bases; then North Korea starts naval training, and the Americans are called to keep an eye on the situation. As usual, they forget about this yet again, then a year later, the Tsunami hits, and America calls half their fleet presence in the Pacific to help out. It's a never-ending cycle, we hate them until we need them. It's pathetic.
And you mentioned how politics in Japan are hereditary? I won't even bother delving into that; it's like saying the Queen of England decides the military policies of the UK. My head is hurting just thinking of ways to explain the truth, so I'll just put it like that and hopefully you understand.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up.
I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though.
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On September 16 2012 16:19 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 15:42 glzElectromaster wrote:
Second post here.
Let me be straight up. The Japanese people, like most people around the world, only learn history through history textbooks. Maybe their grandparents might have something to say, but usually that's not the case. The party that ruled Japan from late 40s till 3 years ago was a direct "descendent" of the Taisei Yokusan-kai, which was the unified party in Japan during WW2 to support and praise war efforts. Some low Class A criminals and multiple Class B criminals had made it back to politics, and spread their influence. They don't want the people to know about the war crimes, because in the end, will go to them. Japanese people have the culture for thousands of years to listen to the government. My grandparents are like that. If the government says something is bad, they believe its bad. The emperor was the descendent of the gods until 1946. If you were grown up in a strict christian family, and if you were taught that the emperor was the descendent of Christ, would you not listen to the government under him? The government has a nickname "Okami", which literally means "our superiors", mostly coined by the older generation. Japan never had that distrust in the government like the United States have had post-Nixon. Naturally, it was the right thing to listen to the government. You can see in a different scenario where in the 80s, the government publicly advocated for Nuclear Power Plants, and that they couldn't possibly fail. Now look what happened. To this day, the government is still covering up anti-nuclear activities. The media sticks with the government. There was a massive protest infront of the Prime Minister's mansion (kind of like the White House) against nuclear power. Not a single TV station bothered to pick it up. It's a passive nature a lot of Japanese people have. The textbooks, which are sanctioned by the government, therefore does not deny the wrongdoings, instead just flat out ignores it. Luckily, I learned history through other sources, and have a different perspective on it. If you ask the people in Japan about the war crimes, most people wouldn't know how to answer it; they never even thought about it before.
Although I like the nature of being humble, this pretty much translates to being ignorant. The reason why Germans have such a deep national regret is because they all acknowledge it, and have come to terms with it. In the case of the Japanese, people don't even get to know about it. I think there lies the problem. What makes it even worse is the fact that many of the people who know about the details are right wing extremists, and just bash the Chinese and Koreans for "whining".
These kind of things are hard to settle. People who have a grudge (and they rightfully do) will have that grudge for a long time. People in the States might have a hard time relating to it (other than Pearl Harbor, maybe), but for Asians WW2 was an extremely, awful, awful event. My grandma never got out of elementary school because she could not simply go to school due to the bombings. A total of 15 of my grand-uncles have perished in the war. Very similar situations have happened everywhere across the West and South Pacific. I don't blame them for having a grudge. But at some point, as I mentioned in my earlier post, we all have to come to terms with it.
Edit: Forgot to put it in originally, I do believe in a total reform of the Japanese government. Right now people in Japan don't really trust any party, but yet don't know what to do with that distrust either. Again here's where the ignorance comes in. Either people have to start realizing on their own, or someone has to wake everybody up. I'm not sure where you're getting the whole 'textbooks ignore wrongdoings' thing. As far as I know, Japanese students do learn about war crimes in school. I'm talking to some Japanese friends right now, asking them about the Nanking Rape and Japanese war crimes and they said they learned about it in school. I agree with a lot of what you said though.
What I meant with "ignoring" was that although they mention it, that's about it. They don't discuss further into it at all. "This happened. Now don't discuss what caused this, and why". Perhaps some conscious teachers in Japan do discuss it, but from what I've heard from people in my parents' generation and my own, it usually is not.
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On September 16 2012 05:56 EtherealDeath wrote:
Uhhh is that overturned police car photoshopped or why is it so fucking big compared to the person smashing it.
edit - Cause that's a CRV, and I may be just 5'6", but I sure as hell am nowhere near that size compared to the CRV... so that guy would have to be astonishingly small, though facial features when zoomed in almost suggest a kid. But still looks fucking weird.
Perspective. He's further from the camera than the side of the CRV that the camera sees.
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EPT
