Let me just limit my post to the direct reason for the recent protests: Diaoyu(Chinese name)/Senkaku(Japanese name) Islands territorial dispute (names in alphabetical order). History between China/Japan is definitely playing a big role for the protests, especially WWII period of it, but there is no doubt that this territorial dispute is the biggest reason this time and most relevant to the topic. So, maybe we should all learn it.
Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China Home Page Most recent remark from Assistant Foreign Minister Many comments from spokesmen here and there, but I couldn't find a single comprehensive official government statement on the islands. Any help finding it?
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Republic of China (Taiwan) Home Page Again, can't find comprehensive statement, at least not English one.
Not that whoever advertised the best should win the territorial dispute, but Japan is doing a better job on that front. Until PRC and ROC make better argument, it seems they have nothing to do with Diaoyu/Senkaku islands aside from ambition for underground maritime resources around the islands that a study found the possibility of in 1968, which prompted them to start claiming the islands in mid 1970's.
Wikipedia Notes 17
^ Lee, Seokwoo. Territorial Disputes among Japan, China and Taiwan concerning the Senkaku Islands (Boundary & Territory Briefing Vol.3 No.7). IBRU. p. 10-11. ISBN 1897643500. ""For a long time following the entry into force of the San Francisco Peace Treaty China/Taiwan raised no objection to the fact that the Senkaku Islands were included in the area placed under US administration in accordance with the provisions of Article of the treaty, and USCAP No. 27. In fact, neither China nor Taiwan had taken up the question of sovereignty over the islands until the latter half of 1970 when evidence relating to the existence of oil resources deposited in the East China Sea surfaced. All this clearly indicates that China/Taiwan had not regarded the Senkaku Islands as a part of Taiwan. Thus, for Japan, none of the alleged historical, geographical and geological arguments set forth by China/Taiwan are acceptable as valid under international law to substantiate China's territorial claim over the Senkaku Islands.""
MOFA of Japan Q&A Q4
2.It is only since the 1970s that the Government of China and the Taiwanese Authorities began making their own assertions on territorial sovereignty over the Senkaku Islands, which constitute Japan's inherent territory (See reference). Until then, they had never expressed any objections, including to the fact that the Islands were included in the area over which the United States exercised the administrative rights in accordance with Article 3 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty.
Any help in finding PRC/ROC official statements is appreciated.
That's quite the claim to make. China bullied for 400 years straight? o.O My Vietnamese ancestors are rolling in their grave.
You should read Chinese history.
Sure, they've always been bullying the weaker SEA nations, but they've mostly been at the receiving end of bullying from their northern nomad neighbors. Quite ironic, and very human.
The past 2 hundred years has been especially rough since all the Western powers also came into the fray. There's huge territories of outer Manchuria that was completely robbed by Russia for example. Strange how nobody talks about that when flipping cars over a tiny island. (Jeez, if Japan was serious about this Greater Asian hemisphere to counter Western threats, they'd ally with China to conquer the Soviet Union during WW2 instead )
I've studied East Asian history for two years, and the one thing that I can say with certainty is that you cannot talk about bullying without giving China a lot of shit for their bullying. Even Japan was once a vassal state before it claimed independence (a long, long time ago).
I agree that China received a lot more of the recent bullying from Western powers during the colonial era and Japan during the Pacific War. But bullying has always been in China's nature. Can't really put it past them.
I sympathize with the pains of the Vietnamese people.
However, I feel worried about your tone. Bullying has always been in human nature. Vietnam isn't exactly leading the way in morality, given its history with Cambodia.
See, your attitude towards China isn't that much different than the attitude of the Chinese towards Japan.
Of course, China was the de facto imperial power before the arrival of the West in the region. It's not possible to ignore the shit they've pulled.
The fact is, China has always been a bully, and even without those 400 odd years of being bullied, they'd still be a bully.
Well, if it makes you feel any better, China always seemed to bully its own people just as much as those around it.
On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote: So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men.
The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation.
let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless.
So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes?
Dead men and dead governments =p
I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed.
On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote: So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men.
The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation.
let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless.
So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes?
Dead men and dead governments =p
I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed.
Your post leads me to believe that you do not understand the Japanese people one bit. I think you are basing that country too much on their visible, political face and not their core. For one, the constitutional law means nothing as it can be easily repealed. They do not want to do this, though, because they have deeply ingrained pacifist principles. Nationalism is not a problem in Japan at all aside from some extremists and politicians. You want their grandchildren to be too afraid to ask their grandparents? Don't worry, that's covered. The Japanese are unfortunate; they are at the whims of a corrupt and HIGHLY inept government which drags them through the mud. Even though it's a democracy, as an American I can understand their plight as the only way to reform such a thing is through mass protest. The only thing is, mass protests have never worked for them before. So the only things left for them is either one: revolution, or two: wait until the current generation of old politicians die out, so that the young can come in and guide the country onto a better path.
You should take the time to study Japanese society or take some time to live in that country. Not that I expect you to, but your comment bleeds with ignorance. The only thing I can agree with is that they need to make more of a fuss every time their government downplays or denies atrocities in any form (even though they made plenty of fusses).
I might give a shit if the Chinese weren't so hypocritical. They don't seem to mind destroying and killing Tibetans.
Both the Chinese and Japanese have committed horrible horrible acts, and for that matter, pretty much every country. Instead of looking outward people need to be looking inward. Fix your own damn houses before condemning others. This goes for my own damn country who've raped, pillaged, and massacred hosts of societies and peoples for the last 200 + years. Whether it was the Indians, Blacks, Philippines, Japanese, Germans, etc.
On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote: So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men.
The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation.
let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless.
So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes?
Dead men and dead governments =p
I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed.
Wait what? When you are mod yourself, you are allowed to wish someone die on TL? Would I get banned if I wish someone else die in the same manner?
On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote: So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men.
The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation.
let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless.
So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes?
Dead men and dead governments =p
I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed.
Wait what? When you are mod yourself, you are allowed to wish someone die on TL? Would I get banned if I wish someone else die in the same manner?
Thats a figure of speech that refers to an action clearly indicating the feeling of shame on oneself.
On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote: So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men.
The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation.
let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless.
So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes?
Dead men and dead governments =p
I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed.
Wait what? When you are mod yourself, you are allowed to wish someone die on TL? Would I get banned if I wish someone else die in the same manner?
Thats a figure of speech that refers to an action clearly indicating the feeling of shame on oneself.
On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote: So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men.
The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation.
let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless.
So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes?
Dead men and dead governments =p
I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed.
Wait what? When you are mod yourself, you are allowed to wish someone die on TL? Would I get banned if I wish someone else die in the same manner?
what? when did he wish someone dying? are you refering to the bolded part?
On September 16 2012 14:03 Wegandi wrote: I might give a shit if the Chinese weren't so hypocritical. They don't seem to mind destroying and killing Tibetans.
Both the Chinese and Japanese have committed horrible horrible acts, and for that matter, pretty much every country. Instead of looking outward people need to be looking inward. Fix your own damn houses before condemning others. This goes for my own damn country who've raped, pillaged, and massacred hosts of societies and peoples for the last 200 + years. Whether it was the Indians, Blacks, Philippines, Japanese, Germans, etc.
The way the Chinese have treated the Tibetans is nothing like how the Japanese treated the Chinese.
Every country has done bad things, but the bad things are far from equal.
On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote: So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men.
The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation.
let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless.
So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes?
Dead men and dead governments =p
I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed.
Wait what? When you are mod yourself, you are allowed to wish someone die on TL? Would I get banned if I wish someone else die in the same manner?
Thats a figure of speech that refers to an action clearly indicating the feeling of shame on oneself.
On September 16 2012 14:03 Wegandi wrote: I might give a shit if the Chinese weren't so hypocritical. They don't seem to mind destroying and killing Tibetans.
Both the Chinese and Japanese have committed horrible horrible acts, and for that matter, pretty much every country. Instead of looking outward people need to be looking inward. Fix your own damn houses before condemning others. This goes for my own damn country who've raped, pillaged, and massacred hosts of societies and peoples for the last 200 + years. Whether it was the Indians, Blacks, Philippines, Japanese, Germans, etc.
The way the Chinese have treated the Tibetans is nothing like how the Japanese treated the Chinese.
Every country has done bad things, but the bad things are far from equal.
Again, these Chinese are nothing, but hypocrites. How can you condemn aggressive actions of a Foreign-State against yours, when you are doing the same thing to other Foreign-States? As for matter of degrees - a death is a death. It would be another matter if there were a significant portion of China protesting the actions of their Government against Tibet, but there isn't. So, like I said, Chinese are no better than what they are protesting. They should be protesting against the CCP, maybe then they'd have some credibility.
The same reason why PNAC and many Americans have no credibility in condemning Al-Qaeda, and such when we've killed countless countless innocence - raped societies, pillaged foreign countries, annexed and conquered. We raped Hawaii. We raped the Philippines. A shame. :/
On September 16 2012 14:03 Wegandi wrote: I might give a shit if the Chinese weren't so hypocritical. They don't seem to mind destroying and killing Tibetans.
Both the Chinese and Japanese have committed horrible horrible acts, and for that matter, pretty much every country. Instead of looking outward people need to be looking inward. Fix your own damn houses before condemning others. This goes for my own damn country who've raped, pillaged, and massacred hosts of societies and peoples for the last 200 + years. Whether it was the Indians, Blacks, Philippines, Japanese, Germans, etc.
The way the Chinese have treated the Tibetans is nothing like how the Japanese treated the Chinese.
Every country has done bad things, but the bad things are far from equal.
They should be protesting against the CCP, maybe then they'd have some credibility.
Oh but they do, by about 200.000 incidents per year IIRC.
Everyone agrees that it's very stupid to destroy Chinese owned assets and rioting like this, even though it is understandable to an extent.
You should also have noticed by now that the CCP benefits from this. It's not coincidence that they allowed this while you hear nothing of the anti-CCP riots.
EDIT: Also, remember that Tibet has been part of China for a couple of centuries now, for better or for worse, Tibet isn't considered its own country by the Chinese government.
On September 16 2012 14:14 fearus wrote: I wish they would just resolve this through military actions.
so all the chinese+japanese goods will become more expensive to buy...
no thanks
(also lol japan doesn't even have a military you know)
I thought it was called the U.S Army.
ok. and in that case, the US will attack China (who's been giving them money)... why?
Japan and U.S defence treaty requires U.S to defend Japanese territory under invasion or attack. So from Japan's perspective any intrusion into the island would be enough to call for U.S intervention.
Unless the U.S decides to not honour their defence treaties... in which case we can take back the other island (taiwan) back aswell.
EPT
)
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