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On September 16 2012 12:39 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:37 robjapan wrote:
In the end the sad truth is that 99.9% of Japanese and Chinese people don't give a shit and just want to live a peaceful happy life. The animosity Japan is seeing from China is 100% real and genuinely from the people, don't kid yourself about that. Most aren't violent or that passionate about it but it's something definitely real in the national psyche. I mean, you don't need a textbook or teacher to influence the kids, all they have to do is hear about all the shit that went down from their grandparents.
Definitely agree with this right here. From what I've seen, the Chinese people are much more vocal about this issue than the Japanese.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 12:46 Loanshark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:39 Taku wrote:On September 16 2012 12:37 robjapan wrote:
In the end the sad truth is that 99.9% of Japanese and Chinese people don't give a shit and just want to live a peaceful happy life. The animosity Japan is seeing from China is 100% real and genuinely from the people, don't kid yourself about that. Most aren't violent or that passionate about it but it's something definitely real in the national psyche. I mean, you don't need a textbook or teacher to influence the kids, all they have to do is hear about all the shit that went down from their grandparents. Definitely agree with this right here. From what I've seen, the Chinese people are much more vocal about this issue than the Japanese.
I would hope so. They don't really have much to be vocal about (and, well, they are a quiet culture by nature). It would be quite a blow to Japan if they started spewing nationalist nonsense. Better to leave that to the crazy right-wingers.
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United States44398 Posts
On September 16 2012 12:44 naastyOne wrote:
UK. The empire, that counquered ~1/5 of world, and was playing other countries to fight each other for their own gain for 2 centuries. Add the entire strategic carpet bombing of civilians. They were no better than Japanese or Nazi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
Tell me again how the British are no better than the Japanese.
You claim to be unbiased, you reveal yourself to simply be ignorant. Saying everyone is equally bad does not make you neutral unless everyone is actually equally bad. In this case it's not and you are factually wrong to claim otherwise.
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On September 16 2012 12:19 robjapan wrote:
This is pretty much the Chinese government wanting to divert attention from themselves and onto something else.
If you want to talk about war criminals in the shrine, I will explain.
The Japanese faith and people's feelings in general about war criminals is that they were tried, they were executed but their souls don't need to be punished for all eternity. They were punished for the crimes they committed, that's it.
I've lived here for almost 10 years now and I can tell you 100% that Japanese people feel shame and embarrassment over what happened during ww2 but they believe they are a different country now with a conviction to never EVER go to war again.
Japan and the Japanese government have apologised over and over and over again, and have paid HUGE sums of money to the people they treated so badly.
For example, Japan gave the Korean government money to pass on to the "comfort women" to this day, these women claim they haven't received a penny, well the facts of the matter are that the money was given to Korea but what happened after that nobody knows.
In times of trouble, when Chinese or Korean goverments feel under pressure, these anti-Japan protests ALWAYS come back up, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
It won't be long before the events of ww2 and before will have happened over 100 years ago, Japan has apologized many times and the money has been paid. It's time the world was made aware that what Chinese and Korean governments are saying about Japan isn't true.
Personally, as a peace loving person, I think the world should be VERY worried about China right now, it's not only Japan they are threatening, it's EVERY country in this region.
You know the situation in the SCS is not the China vs all that Western media sometimes like to depict right. There's are a LOT of disputes, and as someone mentioned earlier there's really no legitimacy behind any of them for any of the countries involved except proximity and whatever history the different sides want , to go with. China has basically been bullied for 400 years straight and now that it's finally got some bite it wants a larger than fair share of the area, which honestly every country does. The U.S. has participated and insinuated how many wars since WW2? Too many to count off the top of my head What about China? 2?
Personally, as another peace loving person, I assure you China, unlike some countries, won't make the mistake of ruining itself in an all out power grab. 
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 12:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:44 naastyOne wrote:
UK. The empire, that counquered ~1/5 of world, and was playing other countries to fight each other for their own gain for 2 centuries. Add the entire strategic carpet bombing of civilians. They were no better than Japanese or Nazi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731Tell me again how the British are no better than the Japanese. You claim to be unbiased, you reveal yourself to simply be ignorant. Saying everyone is equally bad does not make you neutral unless everyone is actually equally bad. In this case it's not and you are factually wrong to claim otherwise.
I'm inclined to agree. The UK was never as bad as Japan.
You could make the argument for the United States, though. The U.S. may even surpass the Japanese in terms of ruthlessness (if we're taking into consideration post-WW2 atrocities as well). =)
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On September 16 2012 12:46 Loanshark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:39 Taku wrote:On September 16 2012 12:37 robjapan wrote:
In the end the sad truth is that 99.9% of Japanese and Chinese people don't give a shit and just want to live a peaceful happy life. The animosity Japan is seeing from China is 100% real and genuinely from the people, don't kid yourself about that. Most aren't violent or that passionate about it but it's something definitely real in the national psyche. I mean, you don't need a textbook or teacher to influence the kids, all they have to do is hear about all the shit that went down from their grandparents. Definitely agree with this right here. From what I've seen, the Chinese people are much more vocal about this issue than the Japanese.
If I beat you up, why would I be vocal about it?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 12:53 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:19 robjapan wrote:
This is pretty much the Chinese government wanting to divert attention from themselves and onto something else.
If you want to talk about war criminals in the shrine, I will explain.
The Japanese faith and people's feelings in general about war criminals is that they were tried, they were executed but their souls don't need to be punished for all eternity. They were punished for the crimes they committed, that's it.
I've lived here for almost 10 years now and I can tell you 100% that Japanese people feel shame and embarrassment over what happened during ww2 but they believe they are a different country now with a conviction to never EVER go to war again.
Japan and the Japanese government have apologised over and over and over again, and have paid HUGE sums of money to the people they treated so badly.
For example, Japan gave the Korean government money to pass on to the "comfort women" to this day, these women claim they haven't received a penny, well the facts of the matter are that the money was given to Korea but what happened after that nobody knows.
In times of trouble, when Chinese or Korean goverments feel under pressure, these anti-Japan protests ALWAYS come back up, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
It won't be long before the events of ww2 and before will have happened over 100 years ago, Japan has apologized many times and the money has been paid. It's time the world was made aware that what Chinese and Korean governments are saying about Japan isn't true.
Personally, as a peace loving person, I think the world should be VERY worried about China right now, it's not only Japan they are threatening, it's EVERY country in this region. You know the situation in the SCS is not the China vs all that Western media sometimes like to depict right. There's are a LOT of disputes, and as someone mentioned earlier there's really no legitimacy behind any of them for any of the countries involved except proximity and whatever history the different sides want , to go with. China has basically been bullied for 400 years straight and now that it's finally got some bite it wants a larger than fair share of the area, which honestly every country does. The U.S. has participated and insinuated how many wars since WW2? Too many to count off the top of my head What about China? 2? Personally, as another peace loving person, I assure you China, unlike some countries, won't make the mistake of ruining itself in an all out power grab.
That's quite the claim to make. China bullied for 400 years straight? o.O My Vietnamese ancestors are rolling in their grave.
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Well, if you look at Chinese history, they have been slowly but steadily expanding through cultural and economical influence as well as military. If they consider a territory as their traditional right, they'll want it, and they'll get it.
While strawmanning China with examples of Imperial Germany is stupid, I think it's also naive to think that they are no threat at all.
I won't be surprised if Mongolia becomes annexed to China at some point in the future for example  After all, Mongolia was part of Qing China as well as the KMT's RoC.
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On September 16 2012 12:45 Necrophantasia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:39 Taku wrote:On September 16 2012 12:37 robjapan wrote:
In the end the sad truth is that 99.9% of Japanese and Chinese people don't give a shit and just want to live a peaceful happy life. The animosity Japan is seeing from China is 100% real and genuinely from the people, don't kid yourself about that. Most aren't violent or that passionate about it but it's something definitely real in the national psyche. I mean, you don't need a textbook or teacher to influence the kids, all they have to do is hear about all the shit that went down from their grandparents. Generally, if you're brain washed and fed propaganda from a young that's kind of what happens. I've seen super intelligent mainland Chinese people dissolve into a mumbling mess when it comes to discussing the glory of China. In their eyes, China can do no wrong. The protests are government motivated and encouraged. If you want to look at a comparison, look at Hong Kong. Part of China for 15 years, free from the Chinese communist propaganda. For the most part, free of protests and riots. Remember, the invasion of Hong Kong was an extremely bloody event, where thousands of British people died for Hong Kong's sake, and the 4 years of Japanese occupation were extremely oppressive and brutal. But, no. Hong Kong people think rationally, enjoy the good parts of Japan, appreciate modern Japan for what it is, and have no interest in wrecking other people's businesses and lives.
Oh the irony ....
lmfao for Hong Kong's sake.... is this real life?
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On September 16 2012 12:56 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:53 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 12:19 robjapan wrote:
This is pretty much the Chinese government wanting to divert attention from themselves and onto something else.
If you want to talk about war criminals in the shrine, I will explain.
The Japanese faith and people's feelings in general about war criminals is that they were tried, they were executed but their souls don't need to be punished for all eternity. They were punished for the crimes they committed, that's it.
I've lived here for almost 10 years now and I can tell you 100% that Japanese people feel shame and embarrassment over what happened during ww2 but they believe they are a different country now with a conviction to never EVER go to war again.
Japan and the Japanese government have apologised over and over and over again, and have paid HUGE sums of money to the people they treated so badly.
For example, Japan gave the Korean government money to pass on to the "comfort women" to this day, these women claim they haven't received a penny, well the facts of the matter are that the money was given to Korea but what happened after that nobody knows.
In times of trouble, when Chinese or Korean goverments feel under pressure, these anti-Japan protests ALWAYS come back up, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
It won't be long before the events of ww2 and before will have happened over 100 years ago, Japan has apologized many times and the money has been paid. It's time the world was made aware that what Chinese and Korean governments are saying about Japan isn't true.
Personally, as a peace loving person, I think the world should be VERY worried about China right now, it's not only Japan they are threatening, it's EVERY country in this region. You know the situation in the SCS is not the China vs all that Western media sometimes like to depict right. There's are a LOT of disputes, and as someone mentioned earlier there's really no legitimacy behind any of them for any of the countries involved except proximity and whatever history the different sides want , to go with. China has basically been bullied for 400 years straight and now that it's finally got some bite it wants a larger than fair share of the area, which honestly every country does. The U.S. has participated and insinuated how many wars since WW2? Too many to count off the top of my head What about China? 2? Personally, as another peace loving person, I assure you China, unlike some countries, won't make the mistake of ruining itself in an all out power grab. That's quite the claim to make. China bullied for 400 years straight? o.O My Vietnamese ancestors are rolling in their grave.
There was this whole coalition of the Western countries + Japan that invaded China.
I do believe that China was never really in the verge of extinction but the culture is one of massive ego and in this case, the ego have been dented by Japan's humiliating and remorseless war tactics that truly made the country's abhorence to be justified.
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On September 16 2012 13:00 Feartheguru wrote:
[Oh the irony ....
lmfao for Hong Kong's sake.... is this real life?
Not sure if trolling, or just stupid.
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On September 16 2012 13:02 Necrophantasia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:00 Feartheguru wrote:
[Oh the irony ....
lmfao for Hong Kong's sake.... is this real life? Not sure if trolling, or just stupid.
Well now I know which one applies for you.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:00 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:56 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 12:53 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 12:19 robjapan wrote:
This is pretty much the Chinese government wanting to divert attention from themselves and onto something else.
If you want to talk about war criminals in the shrine, I will explain.
The Japanese faith and people's feelings in general about war criminals is that they were tried, they were executed but their souls don't need to be punished for all eternity. They were punished for the crimes they committed, that's it.
I've lived here for almost 10 years now and I can tell you 100% that Japanese people feel shame and embarrassment over what happened during ww2 but they believe they are a different country now with a conviction to never EVER go to war again.
Japan and the Japanese government have apologised over and over and over again, and have paid HUGE sums of money to the people they treated so badly.
For example, Japan gave the Korean government money to pass on to the "comfort women" to this day, these women claim they haven't received a penny, well the facts of the matter are that the money was given to Korea but what happened after that nobody knows.
In times of trouble, when Chinese or Korean goverments feel under pressure, these anti-Japan protests ALWAYS come back up, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
It won't be long before the events of ww2 and before will have happened over 100 years ago, Japan has apologized many times and the money has been paid. It's time the world was made aware that what Chinese and Korean governments are saying about Japan isn't true.
Personally, as a peace loving person, I think the world should be VERY worried about China right now, it's not only Japan they are threatening, it's EVERY country in this region. You know the situation in the SCS is not the China vs all that Western media sometimes like to depict right. There's are a LOT of disputes, and as someone mentioned earlier there's really no legitimacy behind any of them for any of the countries involved except proximity and whatever history the different sides want , to go with. China has basically been bullied for 400 years straight and now that it's finally got some bite it wants a larger than fair share of the area, which honestly every country does. The U.S. has participated and insinuated how many wars since WW2? Too many to count off the top of my head What about China? 2? Personally, as another peace loving person, I assure you China, unlike some countries, won't make the mistake of ruining itself in an all out power grab. That's quite the claim to make. China bullied for 400 years straight? o.O My Vietnamese ancestors are rolling in their grave. There was this whole coalition of the Western countries + Japan that invaded China. I do believe that China was never really in the verge of extinction but the culture is one of massive ego and in this case, the ego have been dented by Japan's humiliating and remorseless war tactics that truly made the country's abhorence to be justified.
I just wanted to point out that China has been a bully throughout most of its history and was still a bully even while it was bullied by Western colonialists.
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On September 16 2012 12:56 Souma wrote:
That's quite the claim to make. China bullied for 400 years straight? o.O My Vietnamese ancestors are rolling in their grave.
You should read Chinese history.
Sure, they've always been bullying the weaker SEA nations, but they've mostly been at the receiving end of bullying from their northern nomad neighbors. Quite ironic, and very human.
The past 2 hundred years has been especially rough since all the Western powers also came into the fray. There's huge territories of outer Manchuria that was completely robbed by Russia for example. Strange how nobody talks about that when flipping cars over a tiny island. (Jeez, if Japan was serious about this Greater Asian hemisphere to counter Western threats, they'd ally with China to conquer the Soviet Union during WW2 instead )
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On September 16 2012 13:02 Necrophantasia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:00 Feartheguru wrote:
[Oh the irony ....
lmfao for Hong Kong's sake.... is this real life? Not sure if trolling, or just stupid.
On September 16 2012 13:02 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:02 Necrophantasia wrote:On September 16 2012 13:00 Feartheguru wrote:
[Oh the irony ....
lmfao for Hong Kong's sake.... is this real life? Not sure if trolling, or just stupid. Well now I know which one applies for you.
You know, both of you could explain what the fuck you guys are talking about instead of resorting to insults.
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So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men.
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On September 16 2012 13:02 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:00 Xiphos wrote:On September 16 2012 12:56 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 12:53 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 12:19 robjapan wrote:
This is pretty much the Chinese government wanting to divert attention from themselves and onto something else.
If you want to talk about war criminals in the shrine, I will explain.
The Japanese faith and people's feelings in general about war criminals is that they were tried, they were executed but their souls don't need to be punished for all eternity. They were punished for the crimes they committed, that's it.
I've lived here for almost 10 years now and I can tell you 100% that Japanese people feel shame and embarrassment over what happened during ww2 but they believe they are a different country now with a conviction to never EVER go to war again.
Japan and the Japanese government have apologised over and over and over again, and have paid HUGE sums of money to the people they treated so badly.
For example, Japan gave the Korean government money to pass on to the "comfort women" to this day, these women claim they haven't received a penny, well the facts of the matter are that the money was given to Korea but what happened after that nobody knows.
In times of trouble, when Chinese or Korean goverments feel under pressure, these anti-Japan protests ALWAYS come back up, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
It won't be long before the events of ww2 and before will have happened over 100 years ago, Japan has apologized many times and the money has been paid. It's time the world was made aware that what Chinese and Korean governments are saying about Japan isn't true.
Personally, as a peace loving person, I think the world should be VERY worried about China right now, it's not only Japan they are threatening, it's EVERY country in this region. You know the situation in the SCS is not the China vs all that Western media sometimes like to depict right. There's are a LOT of disputes, and as someone mentioned earlier there's really no legitimacy behind any of them for any of the countries involved except proximity and whatever history the different sides want , to go with. China has basically been bullied for 400 years straight and now that it's finally got some bite it wants a larger than fair share of the area, which honestly every country does. The U.S. has participated and insinuated how many wars since WW2? Too many to count off the top of my head What about China? 2? Personally, as another peace loving person, I assure you China, unlike some countries, won't make the mistake of ruining itself in an all out power grab. That's quite the claim to make. China bullied for 400 years straight? o.O My Vietnamese ancestors are rolling in their grave. There was this whole coalition of the Western countries + Japan that invaded China. I do believe that China was never really in the verge of extinction but the culture is one of massive ego and in this case, the ego have been dented by Japan's humiliating and remorseless war tactics that truly made the country's abhorence to be justified. I just wanted to point out that China has been a bully throughout most of its history and was still a bully even while it was bullied by Western colonialists.
I beg to differ, the countries was more of masochist than a bully.
Only time when China took expansism to the heart was when the Mongolian was in the driver's seat. In that case, you can't make the argument that it was the Chinese mentality at play for its dominance.
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On September 16 2012 12:45 Necrophantasia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:39 Taku wrote:On September 16 2012 12:37 robjapan wrote:
In the end the sad truth is that 99.9% of Japanese and Chinese people don't give a shit and just want to live a peaceful happy life. The animosity Japan is seeing from China is 100% real and genuinely from the people, don't kid yourself about that. Most aren't violent or that passionate about it but it's something definitely real in the national psyche. I mean, you don't need a textbook or teacher to influence the kids, all they have to do is hear about all the shit that went down from their grandparents. Generally, if you're brain washed and fed propaganda from a young that's kind of what happens. I've seen super intelligent mainland Chinese people dissolve into a mumbling mess when it comes to discussing the glory of China. In their eyes, China can do no wrong. The protests are government motivated and encouraged. If you want to look at a comparison, look at Hong Kong. Part of China for 15 years, free from the Chinese communist propaganda. For the most part, free of protests and riots. Remember, the invasion of Hong Kong was an extremely bloody event, where thousands of British people died for Hong Kong's sake, and the 4 years of Japanese occupation were extremely oppressive and brutal. But, no. Hong Kong people think rationally, enjoy the good parts of Japan, appreciate modern Japan for what it is, and have no interest in wrecking other people's businesses and lives.
This whole brainwashing thing is overblown and assumes that the population are that stupid. As I just said, you don't need government-directed education to convince the people to dislike the Japanese, the victims of their brutality are still living! Just talk to a person from that era and they'll give you enough reason to do so. Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Occupation_of_Hong_Kong#Community_life.2C_social_services_and_public_hygiene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_nanking#Massacre
*Very* different histories. If anything, it would be irrational *not* to hold some sort of animosity to Japan as someone from the mainland.
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On September 16 2012 12:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:44 naastyOne wrote:
UK. The empire, that counquered ~1/5 of world, and was playing other countries to fight each other for their own gain for 2 centuries. Add the entire strategic carpet bombing of civilians. They were no better than Japanese or Nazi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731Tell me again how the British are no better than the Japanese. You claim to be unbiased, you reveal yourself to simply be ignorant. Saying everyone is equally bad does not make you neutral unless everyone is actually equally bad. In this case it's not and you are factually wrong to claim otherwise.
Its hard to argue that the British were worse/no batter than the Nazis since the British never set out to exterminate a race. But in terms of being a colonial power that viewed non-white people with contempt, well, that seems pretty obvious:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.html
And if we are talking about the 19th century of British rule too, then its even more obvious. Japan strongly admired British imperialism and sought to emulate it at every turn.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_gas_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920
Unlike the Americans, whose imperialism was pretty small league after the exterminated the locals on their own continent and annexed vast portions of Mexico, the British were rapacious occupiers who had no problem grinding down dozens of peoples into semi-slavery by any means necessary. Including terror bombardment, chemical use or starvation...
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On September 16 2012 12:45 Necrophantasia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 12:39 Taku wrote:On September 16 2012 12:37 robjapan wrote:
In the end the sad truth is that 99.9% of Japanese and Chinese people don't give a shit and just want to live a peaceful happy life. The animosity Japan is seeing from China is 100% real and genuinely from the people, don't kid yourself about that. Most aren't violent or that passionate about it but it's something definitely real in the national psyche. I mean, you don't need a textbook or teacher to influence the kids, all they have to do is hear about all the shit that went down from their grandparents. Generally, if you're brain washed and fed propaganda from a young that's kind of what happens. I've seen super intelligent mainland Chinese people dissolve into a mumbling mess when it comes to discussing the glory of China. In their eyes, China can do no wrong. The protests are government motivated and encouraged. If you want to look at a comparison, look at Hong Kong. Part of China for 15 years, free from the Chinese communist propaganda. For the most part, free of protests and riots. Remember, the invasion of Hong Kong was an extremely bloody event, where thousands of British people died for Hong Kong's sake, and the 4 years of Japanese occupation were extremely oppressive and brutal. But, no. Hong Kong people think rationally, enjoy the good parts of Japan, appreciate modern Japan for what it is, and have no interest in wrecking other people's businesses and lives.
Wasn't some of the Chinese anti-Japanese protesters who got arrested in Diaoyu/Senkaku from HK?
Also there's plenty of mainland Chinese who enjoy and appreciate the good parts of modern Japan, hence the massive preference for Japanese cars/electronics/anime. Please don't talk out of your ass with such a broad statement.
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EPT
