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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:04 reDicE wrote: You know, both of you could explain what the fuck you guys are talking about instead of resorting to insults. He thinks Britain lost thousands of men in HK for the sake of the people there, I laughed my ass off. Ya, that's about it. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:05 Taku wrote: This whole brainwashing thing is overblown and assumes that the population are that stupid. As I just said, you don't need government-directed education to convince the people to dislike the Japanese, the victims of their brutality are still living! Just talk to a person from that era and they'll give you enough reason to do so. Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Occupation_of_Hong_Kong#Community_life.2C_social_services_and_public_hygiene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_nanking#Massacre *Very* different histories. If anything, it would be irrational *not* to hold some sort of animosity to Japan as someone from the mainland. Sure, they dont need help to find reasons to dislike Japan. But that doesnt mean the Communist Party isnt using propaganda anyway to cement their own rule: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0231148909/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER | ||
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Necrophantasia
Japan299 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:02 Feartheguru wrote: Well now I know which one applies for you. Mind pointing how which part of my statement was inaccurate? Hong Kong people are extremely vocal about many things, but there are no large scale anti-Japanese riots in Hong Kong. Hell, I was born in raised in Hong Kong. Please stop posting, you are lowering the average IQ in this thread. Thanks! User was warned for this post | ||
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TehPrime
United States180 Posts
Imagine if the German government officials start denying Holocaust ever happened. Shit hits the fan and it draws in the international response. | ||
KwarK
United States42772 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:05 semantics wrote: So this thread is about arguing the virtues and sins of dead men and dead governments. Shit might as well be a forum on womens rights populated only by men. The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation. | ||
Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:03 RavenLoud wrote: You should read Chinese history. Sure, they've always been bullying the weaker SEA nations, but they've mostly been at the receiving end of bullying from their northern nomad neighbors. Quite ironic, and very human. The past 2 hundred years has been especially rough since all the Western powers also came into the fray. There's huge territories of outer Manchuria that was completely robbed by Russia for example. Strange how nobody talks about that when flipping cars over a tiny island. (Jeez, if Japan was serious about this Greater Asian hemisphere to counter Western threats, they'd ally with China to conquer the Soviet Union during WW2 instead  )I've studied East Asian history for two years, and the one thing that I can say with certainty is that you cannot talk about bullying without giving China a lot of shit for their bullying. Even Japan was once a vassal state before it claimed independence (a long, long time ago). I agree that China received a lot more of the recent bullying from Western powers during the colonial era and Japan during the Pacific War. But bullying has always been in China's nature. Can't really put it past them. (They had just gotten out of the First Sino-Japanese War. Of course they weren't going to ally with China when China had no intentions of allying with them. Japan wanted to ally with Korea but Korea failed to reform their government at the time). | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
While strawmanning China with examples of Imperial Germany is stupid, I think it's also naive to think that they are no threat at all. It's so stupid that plenty of smart people have talked about it: http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/84124-china-being-compared-pre-wwi-imperial-germany.html http://thediplomat.com/whats-next-china/is-bismarck-china’s-man/ http://hnn.us/node/134539 http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-blog/2011/04/06/china-and-imperial-germany/ I've looked for but can't find a story I read a few years ago, I think it was either in Foreign Policy or The New Republic, about how China's elite greatly admire Imperial Germany and study of it is a big thing particularly in the People's Liberation Army, and that the Chinese think there are lots of things about Imperial Germany, industrial-wise, attitude-wise, and military/foreign policy-wise, to emulate. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:08 TehPrime wrote: Do any of you even realize that japanese politicians doesn't even ACKNOWLEDGE the war crimes done by the imperial jap? Imagine if the German government officials start denying Holocaust ever happened. Shit hits the fan and it draws in the international response. They have probably insinuated the collateral damage they have done in the country. It is not that they ignore the events but the government's general attitude is to simply say "Hey, chill it was only for shits and giggles." that tickles a cord to the China's nerves. | ||
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Feartheguru
Canada1334 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:08 Necrophantasia wrote: Mind pointing how which part of my statement was inaccurate? Hong Kong people are extremely vocal about many things, but there are no large scale anti-Japanese riots in Hong Kong. Hell, I was born in raised in Hong Kong. Please stop posting, you are lowering the average IQ in this thread. Thanks! Got called out for saying something so stupid that my jaw hurts. Gets butt hurt and resorts to petty insults  My work here is done. Please stop posting, you are lowering the IQ of everyone in this thread. I'll miss you brain cell #5293293292932329 you were always my favorite  Thanks! User was warned for this post | ||
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wwiv
Singapore182 Posts
even when britain was pushed out of france and her homeland threatened, you will not see british trainee pilots volunteering to become human torpedoes. US marine units surrounded in the early days of WWII in the pacific islands would have never considered using their bodies as suicide bombs. behind those motivations and tactics (US / british soldiers) are very very old ideological underpinnings that have formulated into a "western" style of warfare we see today. it is the adaption of local cultural / political institutions that deviates from this standard of warfare, the american officer wouldn't commit suicide immediately upon having to call a retreat because he actually doesn't have absolute loyalty to roosevelt, the very fact that the average japanese officer will not even hesitate suggests a very strong institutionalized feature of warfare that is foreign to the western democracies of WWII. sure there were "good" guys in the japanese army but most of them went into the war with a mindset that devalued the human well-being, whether it was their own lives or the civilians they came across. under this framework it is easy to see why japanese / german occupation atrocities were far worst than what any american / british officer could have committed. | ||
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Necrophantasia
Japan299 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:08 TehPrime wrote: Do any of you even realize that japanese politicians doesn't even ACKNOWLEDGE the war crimes done by the imperial jap? Imagine if the German government officials start denying Holocaust ever happened. Shit hits the fan and it draws in the international response. How is it not acknowledged? How many apologies do they have to make? How many reparations do they have to make? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations The stuff brewing around China right now, gives wind to the sails of the far right nationalism cronies. Normally they are marginalized and ignored. But now that an election is coming up for Japan, they are using to help them with their push for power. Is it only because the emperor lineage is still the constitutional monarch that it is justified to blame modern Japanese people who didn't have a hand in WWII for it? Is deposing the emperor necessary for peace? Do we still blame Germany for the holocaust and call every German a Nazi and demand an apology for WWII over and over? | ||
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KwarK
United States42772 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:08 Feartheguru wrote: He thinks Britain lost thousands of men in HK for the sake of the people there, I laughed my ass off. Ya, that's about it. It's often forgotten that World War II began when Japan invaded China, not when Germany invaded Poland. The consistent opponents to Japanese barbarism were Britain and France within the League of Nations, two nations which could easily have argued that it was nothing to do with them as the United States did or simply gone into partnership to reap the profits of the war. We were in the Far East for the profit in empire but condemnation of Japan was not profitable, it forced us into a hopeless war costing countless British and ANZAC lives. It would have been easy to say it was not our concern, particularly with the growing threat of Germany. We did not, and it was not for our own sake. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:09 Souma wrote: I've studied East Asian history for two years, and the one thing that I can say with certainty is that you cannot talk about bullying without giving China a lot of shit for their bullying. Even Japan was once a vassal state before it claimed independence (a long, long time ago). I agree that China received a lot more of the recent bullying from Western powers during the colonial era and Japan during the Pacific War. But bullying has always been in China's nature. Can't really put it past them. I sympathize with the pains of the Vietnamese people. However, I feel worried about your tone. Bullying has always been in human nature. Vietnam isn't exactly leading the way in morality, given its history with Cambodia. See, your attitude towards China isn't that much different than the attitude of the Chinese towards Japan. Of course, China was the de facto imperial power before the arrival of the West in the region. It's not possible to ignore the shit they've pulled. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:09 KwarK wrote: The supreme leader of Japan in the second world war remained the constitutional sovereign until 1989. His son now holds that post. He personally signed off on chemical warfare against Chinese civilians among other things. This isn't ancient history, this is separated by just a single generation. let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless. So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes? It's a pointless argument to make people who are not longer alive to say their fuck ups are not their children's problems, it's petty and stupid no one who was originally wronged gets absolution. It's just grasping at straws to get something else. Dead men and dead governments =p | ||
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Tal
United Kingdom1016 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:07 Sub40APM wrote: Its hard to argue that the British were worse/no batter than the Nazis since the British never set out to exterminate a race. But in terms of being a colonial power that viewed non-white people with contempt, well, that seems pretty obvious: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/7991820/Winston-Churchill-blamed-for-1m-deaths-in-India-famine.html And if we are talking about the 19th century of British rule too, then its even more obvious. Japan strongly admired British imperialism and sought to emulate it at every turn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_gas_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920 Unlike the Americans, whose imperialism was pretty small league after the exterminated the locals on their own continent and annexed vast portions of Mexico, the British were rapacious occupiers who had no problem grinding down dozens of peoples into semi-slavery by any means necessary. Including terror bombardment, chemical use or starvation... So your evidence that the British are comparable to the Nazis/Japanese is one article about how the British considered using gas weapons, but apparently did not. And one article showing that Churchill (allegedly), witheld aid from an Indian famine, which doesn't account for the complexities of the time: e.g the simultaneous famine in Greece. Well I'm convinced... I posted this before, but the Japanese war crimes are so terrible, extensive and well documented that it really should be required reading in this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:19 RavenLoud wrote: I sympathize with the pains of the Vietnamese people. However, I feel worried about your tone. Bullying has always been in human nature. Vietnam isn't exactly leading the way in morality, given its history with Cambodia. See, your attitude towards China isn't that much different than the attitude of the Chinese towards Japan. Of course, China was the de facto imperial power before the arrival of the West in the region. It's not possible to ignore the shit they've pulled. Then you agree. I never denied Vietnam's bullying (I don't even like Vietnam even though I'm Vietnamese). I was merely responding to the other guy who said that China was bullying now because they experienced 400 straight years of bullying beforehand. The fact is, China has always been a bully, and even without those 400 odd years of being bullied, they'd still be a bully. | ||
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Necrophantasia
Japan299 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:11 Feartheguru wrote: Got called out for saying something so stupid that my jaw hurts. Gets butt hurt and resorts to petty insults My work here is done. Please stop posting, you are lowering the IQ of everyone in this thread. I'll miss you brain cell #5293293292932329 you were always my favorite Thanks! Glad to see you attacking me without a shred of evidence. Find me a single news report of a large-scale anti Japan riot in HONG KONG. Not the rest of China. There aren't any. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On September 16 2012 12:46 Loanshark wrote: Definitely agree with this right here. From what I've seen, the Chinese people are much more vocal about this issue than the Japanese. Genuine? Interestingly we say that now considering majority of Chinese urban youths born in the 80s grow up watching anime/manga and jerk off to JAV and not long ago, every man and his dog is trying to buy a MADE in JAPAN Toyota or Sony TV set. Also more interestingly that China's own war heroes have received less mention on the "national psyche" due to the simple fact that they fought under the KMT's banner. Or did we forget that what Mao said to the Japanese prime minister? | ||
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KwarK
United States42772 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:21 semantics wrote: let's see point still stands 1989 != 2012, also the emperor of japan was a partial puppet to the military driven government during the time of WWII. Post WWII Hirohito is closer to the British isles queen, adored and loved for w.e reason but basically powerless. So again what does anyone care about his son succeeded him into a powerless hierarchical figurehead nothing out of the ordinary about that. What do you want his son to pay for his fathers crimes? Dead men and dead governments =p I'd like the emperor dethroned and the dead dishonoured. I'm happy with the constitutional laws against an army because I feel Japan can't be trusted with one. I'd like attempts to minimalise the impact of the atrocities to be met with the same uproar that Holocaust denial gets in Germany. I'd like museums explaining the criminal acts of the Japanese people in that generation. I'd like living veterans to hang their heads in shame and their grandchildren to be too afraid of the answer to ask their grandparents what they did during the war. I'd like Japanese nationalism to be treated with intense suspicion, not just by their victim nations but by the Japanese people themselves. Nobody likes to be the bad guy but when the army, the physical embodiment of the state, institutionalises mass rape of civilians then it becomes pretty unambiguous. You can't just declare a clean start and act like nothing happened, a national period of self examination and redefinition is needed. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On September 16 2012 13:10 DeepElemBlues wrote: It's so stupid that plenty of smart people have talked about it: http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/84124-china-being-compared-pre-wwi-imperial-germany.html http://thediplomat.com/whats-next-china/is-bismarck-china’s-man/ http://hnn.us/node/134539 http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-blog/2011/04/06/china-and-imperial-germany/ I've looked for but can't find a story I read a few years ago, I think it was either in Foreign Policy or The New Republic, about how China's elite greatly admire Imperial Germany and study of it is a big thing particularly in the People's Liberation Army, and that the Chinese think there are lots of things about Imperial Germany, industrial-wise, attitude-wise, and military/foreign policy-wise, to emulate. Plenty of smart people have made plenty of predictions for China, and got humiliated. Just saying. Besides, China also finds aspects of a lot of other nations such as the US or even Japan very appealing. Also, It's a cliche thing to say, but the West can't understand China in Western terms. I suppose Germany is the closest equivalent some people think of when comparing China with known Western nations. Both have decided to rapidly rise (or in China's case, re-rise, as it goes in their national anthem) in a world where its competitors have already taken most of what's to take and to have find themselves with precious few friends. However there are a metric ton of differences on every level. You cannot compare the fate of a civilization-state with 5 thousand years of history with a very young, upbeat and ambitious state like Germany. I don't claim to know China perfectly myself, no one can, but I'm pretty darn sure that this equivalence between Germany and China is extremely flawed. EDIT: Many Chinese agree that Bismarck offers an example worth emulating and that Beijing must avoid the recklessness of Wilhelm II. I don't see how that's a bad thing at all. Emulate the guy who got his country off the ground, and don't make the mistake of the fool that started the first World War. | ||
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