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On September 16 2012 11:41 Taku wrote:
Notice how there are no shrines to himmler, mengele, or Nazi Germany in general in Germany, and how they are actually not allowed? Until Japan understands this and why it's like that, I don't think they'll ever be able to shake off the fact that everyone else in east asia dislikes them.
It's an unfair comparison. The so-called Japanese War Criminals are enshrined (Yasukuni) along with millions of Japanese solidiers that died during wars. So just because of a few individuals I can't pay my respect to the millions? Why visiting the shrine by a Japanese politician is taken as hailing the war criminals is beyond me.
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On September 16 2012 11:49 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:41 Taku wrote:
Notice how there are no shrines to himmler, mengele, or Nazi Germany in general in Germany, and how they are actually not allowed? Until Japan understands this and why it's like that, I don't think they'll ever be able to shake off the fact that everyone else in east asia dislikes them. This is people not understanding the history of Yasukuni Shrine. The shrine was not created for the purpose of honoring the war criminals. It existed well before, and at first the government did not want the war criminals enshrined, but some right-wing nuts with a lot of money got the monks there to do it anyway. Once the souls were enshrined, in the spirit of Shinto, they cannot be removed. It sucks that because some fanatics were able to get some souls enshrined, Japanese politicians cannot pay homage to the other millions of souls.
It's not just the shrines themselves but the fact that people(far from the majority of course but unfortunately some notable people included) can and are even allowed to glorify Imperial Japan's conduct in the war. This sends the message that either they don't understand what happened or don't care, either of which keeps the wounds open.
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How are the Japanese in Japan reacting to these events. We know the Chinese be mad as hell, but how about the Japanese? Anyone got some insights?
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On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that).
Souma, the main issue here isn't the apologies. Japan could apologize a thousand times, but the fact is Japan never dismantled the political institutions by which Japan decided to go to war.
When Germany was conquered and split, the country went through an extensive period of de-Nazification where the entire governing apparatus was dismantled and rebuilt. Japan never had its Kokutai similarly rearranged--MacArthur's attempt to do that got rudely interrupted by the Korean War and never continued afterwards.
That's what galls Chinese people. Nobody from China holds the Japanese people at fault--they hold the institutions at fault, and so long as certain Japanese institutions (most notably the Imperial family) are still allowed to hold their exalted status within Japanese society, they will always think that Japanese contrition is insincere.
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On September 16 2012 11:52 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that). Souma, the main issue here isn't the apologies. Japan could apologize a thousand times, but the fact is Japan never dismantled the political institutions by which Japan decided to go to war. When Germany was conquered and split, the country went through an extensive period of de-Nazification where the entire governing apparatus was dismantled and rebuilt. Japan never had its Kokutai similarly rearranged--MacArthur's attempt to do that got rudely interrupted by the Korean War and never continued afterwards. That's what galls Chinese people. Nobody from China holds the Japanese people at fault--they hold the institutions at fault, and so long as certain Japanese institutions (most notably the Imperial family) are still allowed to hold their exalted status within Japanese society, they will always think that Japanese contrition is insincere.
Idunno, the fact that idiots like Ishihara keep getting elected says something...
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Result of national education: Break or loot someone's Japanese TV cabinet and computer! It's patriotic!
Most of these "Japanese" stores and restaurants are owned and operated by Chinese people. These looters disguising themselves as protestors are willing to harm and rob their own people but would never have the same impassioned mob for anti-CCP demonstrations against tyranny and corruption. If they really care about the islands, they should go swim there instead of destroying their own cities. I really hope this stupidity does not spread to Hong Kong in the future.
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5930 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that).
No, it won't until the Japanese politicians stop attempting to fuel nationalism in their own country (and as a byproduct, other countries).
I still have no idea how people like Toru Hashimoto and Shintaro Ishihara get any form of political power. Political apathy probably? Anyway, as an Australian who is in contact with a few people working in Japan, its funny to hear what they have to say because its all completely insane and offensive to all involved.
To be fair, its easy to see the problems in other countries. I don't think we've exactly repented for voting in Joh Bjelke-Petersen (Queenslanders should know this bloke) nor have we done much to solve our human rights issues. We've got around two people in the Senate that aren't horrible people.
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On September 16 2012 11:54 SonZHi wrote:
Result of national education: Break or loot someone's Japanese TV cabinet and computer! It's patriotic!
Most of these "Japanese" stores and restaurants are owned and operated by Chinese people. These looters disguising themselves as protestors are willing to harm and rob their own people but would never have the same impassioned mob for anti-CCP demonstrations against tyranny and corruption. If they really care about the islands, they should go swim there instead of destroying their own cities. I really hope this stupidity does not spread to Hong Kong in the future.
This. The hatred may or may not be justified...but these actions aren't
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On September 16 2012 11:52 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that). Souma, the main issue here isn't the apologies. Japan could apologize a thousand times, but the fact is Japan never dismantled the political institutions by which Japan decided to go to war. When Germany was conquered and split, the country went through an extensive period of de-Nazification where the entire governing apparatus was dismantled and rebuilt. Japan never had its Kokutai similarly rearranged--MacArthur's attempt to do that got rudely interrupted by the Korean War and never continued afterwards. That's what galls Chinese people. Nobody from China holds the Japanese people at fault--they hold the institutions at fault, and so long as certain Japanese institutions (most notably the Imperial family) are still allowed to hold their exalted status within Japanese society, they will always think that Japanese contrition is insincere.
Denazification of the political apparatus in post war germany is basically a myth. The first political elites in the federal republic were formed by former second tier nazis. The link I will post will show active members of political parties in the first years of the federal republic of Germany who were former nazi party members or part of other nazi organisations like the SS. The link is only in german but it will show you that the list is pretty long.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_ehemaliger_NSDAP-Mitglieder,_die_nach_Mai_1945_politisch_tätig_waren
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On September 16 2012 11:36 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:33 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:32 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground. First acknowledge your own crimes (cultural revolution etc.) then we can talk bout being on a moral high horse. At what point did "no worse than what Mao did" become a way of legitimising anything?
No one is legitimizing anything, they are putting things into perspective. You are asking a country that commited human rights abuses in WW2 to apologize to a country that is commiting them right now. That sounds just a bit mad.
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My parents (Who live in China) says its fucked up in downtown and are staying far away from it. Sigh, what has the world become.
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United States42772 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that).
Exhume the war criminals and throw the remains in the sea and then you can honour the war dead without any controversy. Of course, considering the complicity of the entire Japanese army in the war crimes in a way that no civilised nation has been (including the German army in WWII) you might just have to exhume the lot of them. Then ask yourself why you're doing this and you'll realise that the root of the problem was Japanese nationalism and the diseased sense of entitlement that made it permissible to rape, murder and pillage as a national doctrine. The atomic bomb debate aside, it left Japan with a strange sense of self pity and wounded pride. What I would like Japan to realise is that their defeat in World War II was a good thing, for humanity, for civilisation, for the basic moral foundations of every society and for the soul of the Japanese people. That they should be utterly appalled by Imperial Japan and frankly grateful that there existed powers in the world sufficiently strong and sufficiently noble to stop them before they did even more damage.
It's hard for a patriotic people to understand that they're the bad guys and harder still if their reason for being the bad guys was rooted in national pride but until they get over that they'll keep pissing people off.
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On September 16 2012 11:54 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that). No, it won't until the Japanese politicians stop attempting to fuel nationalism in their own country (and as a byproduct, other countries). I still have no idea how people like Toru Hashimoto and Shintaro Ishihara get any form of political power. Political apathy probably? Anyway, as an Australian who is in contact with a few people working in Japan, its funny to hear what they have to say because its all completely insane and offensive to all involved. To be fair, its easy to see the problems in other countries. I don't think we've exactly repented for voting in Joh Bjelke-Petersen (Queenslanders should know this bloke).
To be fair, countries have a right to vote in whatever politicians they want. But when those rabid politicians are handed the institutional channels to convert those extremist views into extremist policy, that's what scares people.
Only a few people in China would care if Ishihara says something stupid while he is mayor of Tokyo. But when Ishihara says something stupid
Let's buy the Diaoyu Islands!
And then the Japanese government, lo and behold, buys the islands, that's when Chinese people start wondering
Why are Japan's institutions and power structures letting a hothead like Ishihara drive their foreign policy?
And then their lingering annoyance at extremist Japanese politicians turns into fear and anger at an extremist Japan.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:47 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:04 KwarK wrote:
Never have two nations created empires for more entirely opposite purposes, maintained them in such different ways, treated the native populations so differently and lost them in such contrasting fashions. ^^This. This isn't to say one Empire was better than the other, however. The very act of imperialism is an abrogation of the sovereignty of subject peoples; a mass deprivation of agency. This is what makes it deplorable; an original sin no amount of benevolent paternalism can ameliorate. The British Empire was created over hundreds of years through an extended fit of absent-mindedness, to paraphrase historian Sir John Seeley. Mercantile interests lay at its heart, and every new fit of expansion was usually driven first by commercial factors and then by military factors. By contrast, the Japanese Empire was created over a few short decades with an expressed purpose of ensuring that Japan would forever be the "leading crane in the formation of Asian nations". The point was not only to create an "Asia for the Asians" but also make sure that no Asian nation could ever develop the industrial base to challenge Japanese supremacy in her home region. A good case can be seen in why both nations went to war against China, and how both nations prosecuted said wars. The British went to war to protect the right of their traders to sell opium. The Japanese went to war because Chiang Kai-shek's industrialization plans meant China would surpass Japan economically, and also turn Manchuria into a resource area for the Chinese coastal strip rather than the Japanese home islands. The British wanted to get free trade and extraterritoriality rights out of the war. The Japanese wanted to get all of China as a colony. The British invaded with 20,000 men, got their political fait accompli, and then left with the exception of gaining a barren island with an excellent deep-water harbor. (But they didn't turn HK into the booming trade entrepot it is today--that distinction goes to the Chinese Communist Party, whose closing of Shanghai forced the China trade to go through HK for 50 years.) The Japanese invaded with 1,500,000 men, did not get a fait accompli, tried and failed to install a puppet government, slaughtered 20 million Chinese through starvation, cold blooded massacres of noncombatants, biological warfare, and burning entire cities, and still didn't end up getting what they wanted. Both wars were deplorable. China deserves restitution for both conflicts. The British gave restitution when they handed over Hong Kong. You don't see many Chinese running up and down the street screaming at the British embassy, do you? But Japan never really gave China any restitution. Japan handed over billions of dollars in soft loans, sure, but after excluding the amounts that China had to pay back, Japan has basically compensated China an average of $477 for every person they killed during the Sino-Japanese war. Dafuq? What's more is that Britain, today, has forever turned its back on imperialism. Sure, there are occasionally imperialist tendencies that come out of certain Anglo-Australian institutions: News Corp.; BHP Billiton; De Beers. But by and large, Britain does not threaten or seek to curb China's welfare and prosperity. By contrast, look at Japan. Japan has the second-largest navy in the world, outfitted with hundreds of long-range strike platforms that are capable of completely shutting down the naval lifelines upon which China's economy depends for survival and inflicting grievous damage on the coastal strip of China that is its commercial heartland. And what's more, unlike the US Navy which actually has global interests to uphold, there is literally no reason for Japan to maintain forces of that size. No one is going to invade Japan anytime soon since Japan is not a profitable country to invade. What does an occupying power gain from holding the Home Islands? Debt-laden golf courses? Old people? Sushi? The broadcast rights to Tokyo TV's upcoming fall season of anime? Sora Aoi? There are no natural resources to speak of, nothing that cannot be gained already via trade. And yet Japan still huffs and puffs like China's rise threatens its very existence, and constantly tries to form coalitions against China with other Asian nations. From the above, you can see how it would be a trivial matter for Chinese politicians to conflate the past sins of the Japanese Empire with the current antagonistic policies of the Japanese government and redirect healthy Chinese nationalism into vitriol against the nation of Japan.
You misunderstand Japanese intentions on a couple of aspects. The reason Japan believed in imperialism was because they wanted to create a "Greater East Asian Sphere" to remain independent from the West. With the West colonizing most of the known world, the Japanese did not want to get caught up in it (they were already forced to many unfair treaties along with China and Korea) and wanted to make sure the whole of Asia (well, more specifically Japan) did not lose their independence and right to self-realization to Western imperialists (read more on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datsu-A_Ron). This, of course, in no way excuses their atrocities, however. Just wanted to point it out.
And the reason the Japanese have such a huge navy is because of the U.S. The Japanese did NOT want to create such a huge self-defense force after World War 2 (remember, though, the Japanese have their military spendings capped at a mere 1% of GDP as per law). But with the onset of the Cold War, the U.S. was all but adamant in trying to get the Japanese to repeal Article 9. And then, during the Gulf War, they got huge international criticism for engaging in money politics - that is, instead of sacrificing their own troops on the international stage, they were merely donating billions of dollars to the UN.
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On September 16 2012 11:59 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:54 Womwomwom wrote:On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that). No, it won't until the Japanese politicians stop attempting to fuel nationalism in their own country (and as a byproduct, other countries). I still have no idea how people like Toru Hashimoto and Shintaro Ishihara get any form of political power. Political apathy probably? Anyway, as an Australian who is in contact with a few people working in Japan, its funny to hear what they have to say because its all completely insane and offensive to all involved. To be fair, its easy to see the problems in other countries. I don't think we've exactly repented for voting in Joh Bjelke-Petersen (Queenslanders should know this bloke). To be fair, countries have a right to vote in whatever politicians they want. But when those rabid politicians are handed the institutional channels to convert those extremist views into extremist policy, that's what scares people. Only a few people in China would care if Ishihara says something stupid while he is mayor of Tokyo. But when Ishihara says something stupid And then the Japanese government, lo and behold, buys the islands, that's when Chinese people start wondering Show nested quote +Why are Japan's institutions and power structures letting a hothead like Ishihara drive their foreign policy? And then their lingering annoyance at extremist Japanese politicians turns into fear and anger at an extremist Japan.
Ishihara is a fucktard who says many fucking stupid things.
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Oh, so this is what the protests were about outside my house. I couldn't sleep for a while lol (I live downtown)
I just don't understand why it is necessary to do such things 
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On September 16 2012 11:41 Taku wrote:
Notice how there are no shrines to himmler, mengele, or Nazi Germany in general in Germany, and how they are actually not allowed? Until Japan understands this and why it's like that, I don't think they'll ever be able to shake off the fact that everyone else in east asia dislikes them.
A good point on the difference between Germany and Japan.
I think on one hand Germany has gone way above and beyond what is required of a country for repentance (I am not saying that the crimes committed are insignificant in any way or that repentance of a country atones for war crimes). It is so extensive of a repentance that I almost feel sometimes that there is a lot of "self-hate" going on in common German thought. I see that as a bit excessive. I think there is a middle ground where one can acknowledge that his country has made some mistakes in the past, but he is still thankful for many things that are in his country (...How I feel about the US).
However, Japan has done the bare minimum required. It really seems like they could care less. They committed gross atrocities that were unparalleled. Plenty of countries have had relatively isolated instances of war crimes committed, but those committed by Japan really deserve a meaningful apology. Although, I just don't see it happening because although Japan may not "officially" think they are a superior race, I feel like this lack of meaningful apologies is rooted somewhere in that ideal.
Despite all of Japan's lack of remorse, China is still playing this up to get those islands...
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On September 16 2012 12:02 EchoZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:59 Shady Sands wrote:On September 16 2012 11:54 Womwomwom wrote:On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that). No, it won't until the Japanese politicians stop attempting to fuel nationalism in their own country (and as a byproduct, other countries). I still have no idea how people like Toru Hashimoto and Shintaro Ishihara get any form of political power. Political apathy probably? Anyway, as an Australian who is in contact with a few people working in Japan, its funny to hear what they have to say because its all completely insane and offensive to all involved. To be fair, its easy to see the problems in other countries. I don't think we've exactly repented for voting in Joh Bjelke-Petersen (Queenslanders should know this bloke). To be fair, countries have a right to vote in whatever politicians they want. But when those rabid politicians are handed the institutional channels to convert those extremist views into extremist policy, that's what scares people. Only a few people in China would care if Ishihara says something stupid while he is mayor of Tokyo. But when Ishihara says something stupid Let's buy the Diaoyu Islands! And then the Japanese government, lo and behold, buys the islands, that's when Chinese people start wondering Why are Japan's institutions and power structures letting a hothead like Ishihara drive their foreign policy? And then their lingering annoyance at extremist Japanese politicians turns into fear and anger at an extremist Japan. Ishihara is a fucktard who says many fucking stupid things.
Ishihara is a fucktard in a position of power and influence who has been repeatedly elected who says many fucking stupid things.
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On September 16 2012 11:58 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:52 Shady Sands wrote:On September 16 2012 11:46 Souma wrote:How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_JapanRead that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs? I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that). Souma, the main issue here isn't the apologies. Japan could apologize a thousand times, but the fact is Japan never dismantled the political institutions by which Japan decided to go to war. When Germany was conquered and split, the country went through an extensive period of de-Nazification where the entire governing apparatus was dismantled and rebuilt. Japan never had its Kokutai similarly rearranged--MacArthur's attempt to do that got rudely interrupted by the Korean War and never continued afterwards. That's what galls Chinese people. Nobody from China holds the Japanese people at fault--they hold the institutions at fault, and so long as certain Japanese institutions (most notably the Imperial family) are still allowed to hold their exalted status within Japanese society, they will always think that Japanese contrition is insincere. Denazification of the political apparatus in post war germany is basically a myth. The first political elites in the federal republic were formed by former second tier nazis. The link I will post will show active members of political parties in the first years of the federal republic of Germany who were former nazi party members or part of other nazi organisations like the SS. The link is only in german but it will show you that the list is pretty long. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_ehemaliger_NSDAP-Mitglieder,_die_nach_Mai_1945_politisch_tätig_waren
Right--it wasn't the fact that former Nazis were disallowed from holding office, but the all-pervading influence of a single political party was removed from Germany politics. You did not see Gauleiters running provinces after 1945, for example, or a nationwide paramilitary organization anymore.
Japan never dismantled its highest warmaking institution: the Japanese Imperial Family. The very fact that Japan still has a Chrysanthemum Throne in Tokyo is, to many people in China, as deeply offensive as a German NSDAP fuhrer still sitting in Berlin would be to a Jewish person, even if said fuhrer was purely ceremonial.
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5930 Posts
They do have the right but how/why do they get voted in? Their foreign policy is not good to say the least but their comments regarding their own constituency would be suicidal in most other countries.
One thing I should mention is that Japanese parties don't really have young parties to speak of, apparently. Making sure everyone is some stereotypical old fucker doesn't really do much to change party direction I imagine. But surely there must be alternative options on the voting ballot.
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EPT
