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United States42772 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:33 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:32 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground. First acknowledge your own crimes (cultural revolution etc.) then we can talk bout being on a moral high horse. At what point did "no worse than what Mao did" become a way of legitimising anything?
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I'm not informed enough to say much, but destroying Japanese cars owned by Chinese people is laughably dumb.
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On September 16 2012 11:33 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:32 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground. First acknowledge your own crimes (cultural revolution etc.) then we can talk bout being on a moral high horse. And you wonder why the chinese and koreans are still pissed off with Japan. It's this dismissive attitude. If your great grandmother was raped to death by a people who still deny it even happened how is that blind hatred?
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On September 16 2012 11:31 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. The hatred isn't blind. It's informed by what happened and what is happening. Haven't you been reading this thread? Hating the Japanese government and politicians for their actions is one thing, hating Japanese people another.
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It's my land! That we aren't going to do anything with... I don't get it, it's just an island?
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On September 16 2012 11:33 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:32 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground. First acknowledge your own crimes (cultural revolution etc.) then we can talk bout being on a moral high horse.
huh? when did the chinese ever deny the atrocities Mao brought upon his own people?
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On September 16 2012 11:39 Ym1r wrote: It's my land! That we aren't going to do anything with... I don't get it, it's just an island?
apparently there are underwater oil deposits somewhat close to the island.
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On September 16 2012 11:33 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:32 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground. First acknowledge your own crimes (cultural revolution etc.) then we can talk bout being on a moral high horse.
That's a domestic issue which is widely acknowledged. The official line (which most people follow) is that Mao was 30% wrong in his policies. That's a staggering indictment, meaning 1 in 3 of his choices were bad ideas. The big one is the cultural revolution - which is seen as terrible thing. So they already acknowledged that crime.
Beyond that though, what happens within a country is very different from what happens when foreign invaders come. As the Chinese like to put it: "If your mother and father fight, you know it's bad, and you're aware of it. But if your neighbour comes and fights, you'll all band together, because it's much much worse".
Just because the French had the French Revolution doesn't mean they can't criticise Nazis for invading them.
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On September 16 2012 11:39 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:31 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. The hatred isn't blind. It's informed by what happened and what is happening. Haven't you been reading this thread? Hating the Japanese government and politicians for their actions is one thing, hating Japanese people another.
isn't the prupose of a government to be a general reflection and representative of its people?
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Notice how there are no shrines to himmler, mengele, or Nazi Germany in general in Germany, and how they are actually not allowed? Until Japan understands this and why it's like that, I don't think they'll ever be able to shake off the fact that everyone else in east asia dislikes them.
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On September 16 2012 11:36 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:33 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:32 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground. First acknowledge your own crimes (cultural revolution etc.) then we can talk bout being on a moral high horse. At what point did "no worse than what Mao did" become a way of legitimising anything?
It didn't. Was just commenting on the 'moral horse' bit.
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United States42772 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:35 Tal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:12 AngryMag wrote:On September 16 2012 10:44 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 10:38 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly  You accuse people of simplifying, and then describe the Nanking Massacre as a 'massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians?' Comeon. It involved 'massacre contests' and the rape of infants, all sanctioned by the high command. The analogy between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is appealing to historians and the public beacause it's convincing. Both regimes had a strong belief in their racial superiority, and it was shown by the terrible things they did to the world. In fact, looking at the evidence, I would much rather be invaded by Nazis than the Japanese. Just 56 Chinese prisoners of war were released after the war - everyone else was killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimesFor anyone who hasn't read up on it before, that wikipedia page should be pause for reflection. But beyond that, any history of the time is profoundly disturbing. I still can't shake the story of the Japanese using Chinese prisoners and rats to experiment with bubonic plague, and once the trials had finished letting the rats out into the Chinese city, killing thousands upon thousands. The Japanese culture at this time was geniunely sickening, and the lack of a deep apology, or a cultural background of repentance forces me to side with China. Look at Germany - they have repentant monuments to the holocaust, a rich literary field of repentence, and nationwide soul searching. Japan have...some insincere apologies, and an attempt to rewrite history. A long way to go. To step away from history to more personal experiences, I've talked to a lot of Chinese about this debate, and they are fairly pragmatic. Everyone I've spoken to says that if Japan were to deeply apologise, and return the islands, they would be prepared to let bygones be bygones - after all, it is in the past. But by refusing to accept their crimes, they are keeping the wounds open, and well salted. Nazi Germany was basically millions of normal people fighting for their country plus the SS committing war crimes. Imperial Japan was millions of people thinking they are a superior race and a large % of them committing war crimes. The German army was very professional, in 1 week of American occupation the Americans raped more German women than the amount of French women their army raped in the whole 4 years. That is only partially true. Wehrmacht was responsible for several war crimes. If you are interested in the topic you should read about the "commissioner order" which ordered soldiers of the Wehrmacht to shoot soviet political commisioners on sight (also after surrendering) and the "Kriegsgerichtsbarkeitserlass" (sorry I cannot find the english word), which tried to define the treatment of partisans (partisans, spouses of partisans, the village they live in). The commissioner order was usually followed (warcrime), Kriegsgerichtbarkeitserlass was only partially followed, as many higher ranks on the actual front refused to burn down the villages of partisans, which angered Adolf and the leading heads of the OKW. In some units both orders were executed to the full extent, which clearly included various war crimes. EDIT: all in all, Regarding the whole mess the war created, conduct of the Wehrmacht was pretty professional. There were warcrimes, but not on such a large scale like the ones committed from the SS or even other powers fighting in the war. Many scientists say that around 10% of Wehrmacht soldiers took an active part in warcrimes, which is somehow worth mentioning because crimes were ordered from the highest officials and not following orders could have severe consequences for the individual soldier. So actually it really would be much better to be invaded by Nazis rather than Japanese? When I originally wrote that I was being slightly flippant - but it's seeming increasingly convincing. Of course it would. The Japanese army rounded up civilian women and kept them as slaves to be routinely raped by their soldiers. Your average German soldier knew rape was wrong, despite Nazi ideology. Even the worst experiments on the Jews in death camps don't even begin to approach the terrors of the Japanese experiments on civilians. As Europeans we tend to focus largely on Germany, partly due to proximity and I think partly because the Germans are like us and we want to know how it was that a western civilised nation committed those crimes. Whereas there is still a residual "well, of course they did, they're Japanese, what did you expect" regarding Japan, the idea that they don't meet our standings for a civilised nation is less shocking and interesting.
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On September 16 2012 11:40 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:33 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:32 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground. First acknowledge your own crimes (cultural revolution etc.) then we can talk bout being on a moral high horse. huh? when did the chinese ever deny the atrocities Mao brought upon his own people?
The great famine wasn't even entirely mao's fault. It's really stupid when people attribute the whole thing to him. Most of the deaths were actually the faults of local leaders who exaggerated their agricultural outputs and then had to ship everything they actually had away.
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On September 16 2012 11:31 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:22 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 10:52 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote: [quote]
That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle.
The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. I find it hard to believe China was invading anyone during that time period while it was getting raped by foreign powers. Actually it happened even way before that, back in the 13th century (Kamakura shogunate). China was then under the (Mongolian) Yuan dynasty which tried to take control of the Japanese islands. Twice they attempted and twice they failed, but it was mostly due to the 'bad weather' that destroyed their fleets (and this is where the term 'kamikaze' was born or 'wind that the gods sent to protect Japan'). (Sorry for being a little offtopic.) This was already discussed. Kublai Khan was not Chinese, and his intentions don't reflect that of the Chinese. I know there's a bit of brainwashing in the Chinese education system that somehow likes to claim the Yuan dynasty's Mongol conquests as "Chinese", but look at the fact that despite having the world's largest ships and a huge fleet until the 16th century, China never invaded Japan, neither did any real Chinese dynasty, not Tang, not Song and not even the Ming who was actually attacked by Japan. Only when they were slaves to Mongols did they went to war against Japan. Sorry I just forgot to refresh the page and didn't see the replies to this. Of course you may argue that Yuan wasn't Chinese (and I stated that it was a Mongolian - although later sinicized - dynasty) but then you need to specify what do you consider Chinese. Were Qing Chinese? Ming wasn't attacked by Japan but Toyotomi Hideyoshi (the de facto military ruler of Japan at the end of 16th century) of course had such plans (or rather delusions of grandeur near the end of his life). If it wasn't for the failure of Korean campaign (in which Chinese armies took part) China would be the next 'logical' step. Qing is definitely not Chinese. The Manchus did get reverse-conquered and totally sinicized though. That's what makes it different than early Yuan.
EDIT: Further clarification.
There has been different degrees of sinicization between the foreign rulers of Yuan and Qing China. The most obvious showcase is the fact that after Yuan, the new Ming China only contained the "proper" China (which was much smaller than today's PRC) while the rest of the empire broke up. However, the end of Qing had most Manchu conquests such as Tibet, Uyghyr territory, Manchuria and Mongolia all becoming a new China, for better or for worse. Though Mongolia was "lost" due to the Russians wanting a puppet state to weaken China.
Ming was attacked by Japanese pirates, which should gives them reason enough to retaliate though they didn't, (probably more out of lack of ambition/funds than benevolence though.)
Btw you really shouldn't base your arguments on "well you guys did it too" because that is not going anywhere productive.
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On September 16 2012 11:41 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:40 Doraemon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:33 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:32 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground. First acknowledge your own crimes (cultural revolution etc.) then we can talk bout being on a moral high horse. huh? when did the chinese ever deny the atrocities Mao brought upon his own people? The great famine wasn't even entirely mao's fault. It's really stupid when people attribute the whole thing to him. Most of the deaths were actually the faults of local leaders who exaggerated their agricultural outputs and then had to ship everything they actually had away.
i do agree with you, however the policies was enforced from the highest echolon of the parties and the buck stops at Mao. i remember the stories of local township having to melt their own pans to meet the metal production quotas..
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On September 16 2012 11:41 Doraemon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:39 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:31 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote: Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. The hatred isn't blind. It's informed by what happened and what is happening. Haven't you been reading this thread? Hating the Japanese government and politicians for their actions is one thing, hating Japanese people another. isn't the prupose of a government to be a general reflection and representative of its people?
Ideally yes (and apparently not in China). But you can't really say that just because someone was elected it means that everything this person does or says is the will of the people.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
How many times do the Japanese have to apologize? At the moment, the only thing left to apologize for is the treatment of Comfort Women and their denial of its happenings. The Japanese have apologized 55 times for their atrocities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
Read that laundry list. If the Japanese government steps up to apologize for the Comfort Women, will the rest of East Asia finally get off their backs?
I already said that the textbook revision is almost a non-factor (read previous posts). The visit to Yasukuni Shrine is something the Japanese public have condemned (this is why the Prime Minister has not visited the shrine in over a decade). The Japanese cannot control what a handful of rogue politicians do (as residents of democracies, we should all be able to empathize with that).
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On September 16 2012 11:35 Tal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:12 AngryMag wrote:On September 16 2012 10:44 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 10:38 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly  You accuse people of simplifying, and then describe the Nanking Massacre as a 'massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians?' Comeon. It involved 'massacre contests' and the rape of infants, all sanctioned by the high command. The analogy between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is appealing to historians and the public beacause it's convincing. Both regimes had a strong belief in their racial superiority, and it was shown by the terrible things they did to the world. In fact, looking at the evidence, I would much rather be invaded by Nazis than the Japanese. Just 56 Chinese prisoners of war were released after the war - everyone else was killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimesFor anyone who hasn't read up on it before, that wikipedia page should be pause for reflection. But beyond that, any history of the time is profoundly disturbing. I still can't shake the story of the Japanese using Chinese prisoners and rats to experiment with bubonic plague, and once the trials had finished letting the rats out into the Chinese city, killing thousands upon thousands. The Japanese culture at this time was geniunely sickening, and the lack of a deep apology, or a cultural background of repentance forces me to side with China. Look at Germany - they have repentant monuments to the holocaust, a rich literary field of repentence, and nationwide soul searching. Japan have...some insincere apologies, and an attempt to rewrite history. A long way to go. To step away from history to more personal experiences, I've talked to a lot of Chinese about this debate, and they are fairly pragmatic. Everyone I've spoken to says that if Japan were to deeply apologise, and return the islands, they would be prepared to let bygones be bygones - after all, it is in the past. But by refusing to accept their crimes, they are keeping the wounds open, and well salted. Nazi Germany was basically millions of normal people fighting for their country plus the SS committing war crimes. Imperial Japan was millions of people thinking they are a superior race and a large % of them committing war crimes. The German army was very professional, in 1 week of American occupation the Americans raped more German women than the amount of French women their army raped in the whole 4 years. That is only partially true. Wehrmacht was responsible for several war crimes. If you are interested in the topic you should read about the "commissioner order" which ordered soldiers of the Wehrmacht to shoot soviet political commisioners on sight (also after surrendering) and the "Kriegsgerichtsbarkeitserlass" (sorry I cannot find the english word), which tried to define the treatment of partisans (partisans, spouses of partisans, the village they live in). The commissioner order was usually followed (warcrime), Kriegsgerichtbarkeitserlass was only partially followed, as many higher ranks on the actual front refused to burn down the villages of partisans, which angered Adolf and the leading heads of the OKW. In some units both orders were executed to the full extent, which clearly included various war crimes. EDIT: all in all, Regarding the whole mess the war created, conduct of the Wehrmacht was pretty professional. There were warcrimes, but not on such a large scale like the ones committed from the SS or even other powers fighting in the war. Many scientists say that around 10% of Wehrmacht soldiers took an active part in warcrimes, which is somehow worth mentioning because crimes were ordered from the highest officials and not following orders could have severe consequences for the individual soldier. So actually it really would be much better to be invaded by Nazis rather than Japanese? When I originally wrote that I was being slightly flippant - but it's seeming increasingly convincing.
Depending on your nationality, if you were british,french or american it would have been better to be invaded by Nazi germany. POW's from these nations had a high survival rate in german captivity. After the war german POW's were fucked by these nations bigtime with many soldiers sold, starved or simply shot btw.
Also the civil population in France was basically left alone, apart from the partisan order I mentioned before, which in reality was sometimes followed sometimes not. If you are eastern European you probably would have been fucked either way as the SS organized large scale war crimes against jews and the "normal civil population.
Oh and you still have a statue of Arthur Harris in London
EDIT: there were also SS operations in France, for example the massacre in Oradour sur glane (which was also tied to the mentioned partisan order), but compared to Eastern Europe such events didn't happen regularly. Japanese large scale crimes back in these days were rather the rule than the exception after invasions. So I guess in the case of western nations the point still stands.
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On September 16 2012 11:04 KwarK wrote: Never have two nations created empires for more entirely opposite purposes, maintained them in such different ways, treated the native populations so differently and lost them in such contrasting fashions. ^^This.
This isn't to say one Empire was better than the other, however. The very act of imperialism is an abrogation of the sovereignty of subject peoples; a mass deprivation of agency. This is what makes it deplorable; an original sin no amount of benevolent paternalism can ameliorate.
The British Empire was created over hundreds of years through an extended fit of absent-mindedness, to paraphrase historian Sir John Seeley. Mercantile interests lay at its heart, and every new fit of expansion was usually driven first by commercial factors and then by military factors.
By contrast, the Japanese Empire was created over a few short decades with an expressed purpose of ensuring that Japan would forever be the "leading crane in the formation of Asian nations". The point was not only to create an "Asia for the Asians" but also make sure that no Asian nation could ever develop the industrial base to challenge Japanese supremacy in her home region.
A good case can be seen in why both nations went to war against China, and how both nations prosecuted said wars.
The British went to war to protect the right of their traders to sell opium.
The Japanese went to war because Chiang Kai-shek's industrialization plans meant China would surpass Japan economically, and also turn Manchuria into a resource area for the Chinese coastal strip rather than the Japanese home islands.
The British wanted to get free trade and extraterritoriality rights out of the war.
The Japanese wanted to get all of China as a colony.
The British invaded with 20,000 men, got their political fait accompli, and then left with the exception of gaining a barren island with an excellent deep-water harbor. (But they didn't turn HK into the booming trade entrepot it is today--that distinction goes to the Chinese Communist Party, whose closing of Shanghai forced the China trade to go through HK for 50 years.)
The Japanese invaded with 1,500,000 men, did not get a fait accompli, tried and failed to install a puppet government, slaughtered 20 million Chinese through starvation, cold blooded massacres of noncombatants, biological warfare, and burning entire cities, and still didn't end up getting what they wanted.
Both wars were deplorable. China deserves restitution for both conflicts. The British gave restitution when they handed over Hong Kong. You don't see many Chinese running up and down the street screaming at the British embassy, do you?
But Japan never really gave China any restitution. Japan handed over billions of dollars in soft loans, sure, but after excluding the amounts that China had to pay back, Japan has basically compensated China an average of $477 for every person they killed during the Sino-Japanese war.
Dafuq?
What's more is that Britain, today, has forever turned its back on imperialism. Sure, there are occasionally imperialist tendencies that come out of certain Anglo-Australian institutions: News Corp.; BHP Billiton; De Beers. But by and large, Britain does not threaten or seek to curb China's welfare and prosperity.
By contrast, look at Japan. Japan has the second-largest navy in the world, outfitted with hundreds of long-range strike platforms that are capable of completely shutting down the naval lifelines upon which China's economy depends for survival and inflicting grievous damage on the coastal strip of China that is its commercial heartland.
And what's more, unlike the US Navy which actually has global interests to uphold, there is literally no reason for Japan to maintain forces of that size. No one is going to invade Japan anytime soon since Japan is not a profitable country to invade. What does an occupying power gain from holding the Home Islands? Debt-laden golf courses? Old people? Sushi? The broadcast rights to Tokyo TV's upcoming fall season of anime? Sora Aoi? There are no natural resources to speak of, nothing that cannot be gained already via trade. And yet Japan still huffs and puffs like China's rise threatens its very existence, and constantly tries to form coalitions against China with other Asian nations.
From the above, you can see how it would be a trivial matter for Chinese politicians to conflate the past sins of the Japanese Empire with the current antagonistic policies of the Japanese government and redirect healthy Chinese nationalism into vitriol against the nation of Japan.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:41 Taku wrote: Notice how there are no shrines to himmler, mengele, or Nazi Germany in general in Germany, and how they are actually not allowed? Until Japan understands this and why it's like that, I don't think they'll ever be able to shake off the fact that everyone else in east asia dislikes them.
This is people not understanding the history of Yasukuni Shrine. The shrine was not created for the purpose of honoring the war criminals. It existed well before, and at first the government did not want the war criminals enshrined, but some right-wing nuts with a lot of money got the monks there to do it anyway. Once the souls were enshrined, in the spirit of Shinto, they cannot be removed.
It sucks that because some fanatics were able to get some souls enshrined, Japanese politicians cannot pay homage to the other millions of souls.
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