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On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion.
So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it?
I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened.
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above. just read the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
i know wiki ain't perfect but for neutrality's sake it does the job. 1945 was not that long ago, there are still survivors from the atrocities committed and is still fresh in the minds of pretty much all Asians
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On September 16 2012 10:38 Tal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly  You accuse people of simplifying, and then describe the Nanking Massacre as a 'massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians?' Comeon. It involved 'massacre contests' and the rape of infants, all sanctioned by the high command. The analogy between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is appealing to historians and the public beacause it's convincing. Both regimes had a strong belief in their racial superiority, and it was shown by the terrible things they did to the world. In fact, looking at the evidence, I would much rather be invaded by Nazis than the Japanese. Just 56 Chinese prisoners of war were released after the war - everyone else was killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimesFor anyone who hasn't read up on it before, that wikipedia page should be pause for reflection. But beyond that, any history of the time is profoundly disturbing. I still can't shake the story of the Japanese using Chinese prisoners and rats to experiment with bubonic plague, and once the trials had finished letting the rats out into the Chinese city, killing thousands upon thousands. The Japanese culture at this time was geniunely sickening, and the lack of a deep apology, or a cultural background of repentance forces me to side with China. Look at Germany - they have repentant monuments to the holocaust, a rich literary field of repentence, and nationwide soul searching. Japan have...some insincere apologies, and an attempt to rewrite history. A long way to go. To step away from history to more personal experiences, I've talked to a lot of Chinese about this debate, and they are fairly pragmatic. Everyone I've spoken to says that if Japan were to deeply apologise, and return the islands, they would be prepared to let bygones be bygones - after all, it is in the past. But by refusing to accept their crimes, they are keeping the wounds open, and well salted.
Nazi Germany was basically millions of normal people fighting for their country plus the SS committing war crimes. Imperial Japan was millions of people thinking they are a superior race and a large % of them committing war crimes. The German army was very professional, in 1 week of American occupation the Americans raped more German women than the amount of French women their army raped in the whole 4 years.
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On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened.
The Germans should denounce every apology they've made about the Holocaust so they can have a greater sense of national pride.
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On September 16 2012 10:09 ymir233 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:49 reDicE wrote:On September 16 2012 09:43 ymir233 wrote:
A poor and greedy move for Japan to try and take the Diaoyu Islands for themselves before Dokdo. Now they're gonna get it lololols. Japan isn't trying to "take" the islands. It's already theirs. Japan annexed the islands after the First Sino-Japanese war in 1895. They were taken by the US after WWII. The US gave them back the islands in the San Francisco peace treaty in 1971. China never even cared about the islands until it was found that there were oil and natural gas reserves near the island. There was a history of both nations claiming the island before the annexation, and China recorded its existence before Japan did. It's not like in 1895 the Japanese were suddenly like "oh shit our ships just bumped into an unknown island, better take it now"....
I'd go so far as to say that it's existence was recorded long before there was such a thing as a Chinese nation. Why don't those people get the islands?
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On September 16 2012 10:41 Angel_ wrote:
And I'm still missing what actually provoked the rioting, and why the chinese people are being "allowed" to riot in the first place.
It's about the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, Japan and China are battling over it. There's been, err, cultural bias for quite some time, it's just a good opportunity to riot, I guess. Personally, I think it's useless as it doesn't change anything.
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On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened.
Do you know that people apologize for mistreatment from previous generations.... like all the time? What about it is incredulous to you? Canada apologized to the aboriginals like what 3 years ago? You think Steven Harper was the one taking their land and putting them on reserves?
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From the look of things, all thats gonna happen are these protests. Neither of these nations will fight over these islands, because Japan doesn't have the firepower to deal with China. And China isn't anywhere near stupid enough to go to war with what is U.S protectoraite.
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On September 16 2012 10:45 Kvacksalvaren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:09 ymir233 wrote:On September 16 2012 09:49 reDicE wrote:On September 16 2012 09:43 ymir233 wrote:
A poor and greedy move for Japan to try and take the Diaoyu Islands for themselves before Dokdo. Now they're gonna get it lololols. Japan isn't trying to "take" the islands. It's already theirs. Japan annexed the islands after the First Sino-Japanese war in 1895. They were taken by the US after WWII. The US gave them back the islands in the San Francisco peace treaty in 1971. China never even cared about the islands until it was found that there were oil and natural gas reserves near the island. There was a history of both nations claiming the island before the annexation, and China recorded its existence before Japan did. It's not like in 1895 the Japanese were suddenly like "oh shit our ships just bumped into an unknown island, better take it now".... I'd go so far as to say that it's existence was recorded long before there was such a thing as a Chinese nation. Why don't those people get the islands?
So you agree that the country will the biggest muscles to flex controls the land. (as has always been the case) So you should see nothing wrong with China trying to take it back now.
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On September 16 2012 10:47 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened. Do you know that people apologize for mistreatment from previous generations.... like all the time? What about it is incredulous to you? Canada apologized to the aboriginals like what 3 years ago? You think Steven Harper was the one taking their land and putting them on reserves?
And how sincere do you think he was?
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On September 16 2012 10:48 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:47 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened. Do you know that people apologize for mistreatment from previous generations.... like all the time? What about it is incredulous to you? Canada apologized to the aboriginals like what 3 years ago? You think Steven Harper was the one taking their land and putting them on reserves? And how sincere do you think he was?
Irrelevant
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On September 16 2012 10:48 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:45 Kvacksalvaren wrote:On September 16 2012 10:09 ymir233 wrote:On September 16 2012 09:49 reDicE wrote:On September 16 2012 09:43 ymir233 wrote:
A poor and greedy move for Japan to try and take the Diaoyu Islands for themselves before Dokdo. Now they're gonna get it lololols. Japan isn't trying to "take" the islands. It's already theirs. Japan annexed the islands after the First Sino-Japanese war in 1895. They were taken by the US after WWII. The US gave them back the islands in the San Francisco peace treaty in 1971. China never even cared about the islands until it was found that there were oil and natural gas reserves near the island. There was a history of both nations claiming the island before the annexation, and China recorded its existence before Japan did. It's not like in 1895 the Japanese were suddenly like "oh shit our ships just bumped into an unknown island, better take it now".... I'd go so far as to say that it's existence was recorded long before there was such a thing as a Chinese nation. Why don't those people get the islands? So you agree that the country will the biggest muscles to flex controls the land. (as has always been the case) So you should see nothing wrong with China trying to take it back now.
I think you may have missed the point of his post.
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On September 16 2012 10:48 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:47 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened. Do you know that people apologize for mistreatment from previous generations.... like all the time? What about it is incredulous to you? Canada apologized to the aboriginals like what 3 years ago? You think Steven Harper was the one taking their land and putting them on reserves? And how sincere do you think he was?
Does not matter, he still gave a voice to the victims of this discrimination, who were laughed at before. The denial makes it hard for the victims to cope with what happened. That's a part of the reason many german oldtimers still don't like Americans. Not because of what happened as it was long time ago, but because of the denial.
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On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. I find it hard to believe China was invading anyone during that time period while it was getting raped by foreign powers.
Actually it happened even way before that, back in the 13th century (Kamakura shogunate). China was then under the (Mongolian) Yuan dynasty which tried to take control of the Japanese islands. Twice they attempted and twice they failed, but it was mostly due to the 'bad weather' that destroyed their fleets (and this is where the term 'kamikaze' was born or 'wind that the gods sent to protect Japan').
(Sorry for being a little offtopic.)
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On September 16 2012 10:46 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:41 Angel_ wrote:
And I'm still missing what actually provoked the rioting, and why the chinese people are being "allowed" to riot in the first place. It's about the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, Japan and China are battling over it. There's been, err, cultural bias for quite some time, it's just a good opportunity to riot, I guess. Personally, I think it's useless as it doesn't change anything.
I'm probably not alone in thinking this, but it also appears that the American government has been helping to spark this continued rivalry between the two countries, and that the Chinese government is clearly the major sponsor of aggressive anti-Japanese sentiment. You're not allowed to protest the regime, so whine about the Japanese like a good party member.
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On September 16 2012 10:51 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:48 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 10:45 Kvacksalvaren wrote:On September 16 2012 10:09 ymir233 wrote:On September 16 2012 09:49 reDicE wrote:On September 16 2012 09:43 ymir233 wrote:
A poor and greedy move for Japan to try and take the Diaoyu Islands for themselves before Dokdo. Now they're gonna get it lololols. Japan isn't trying to "take" the islands. It's already theirs. Japan annexed the islands after the First Sino-Japanese war in 1895. They were taken by the US after WWII. The US gave them back the islands in the San Francisco peace treaty in 1971. China never even cared about the islands until it was found that there were oil and natural gas reserves near the island. There was a history of both nations claiming the island before the annexation, and China recorded its existence before Japan did. It's not like in 1895 the Japanese were suddenly like "oh shit our ships just bumped into an unknown island, better take it now".... I'd go so far as to say that it's existence was recorded long before there was such a thing as a Chinese nation. Why don't those people get the islands? So you agree that the country will the biggest muscles to flex controls the land. (as has always been the case) So you should see nothing wrong with China trying to take it back now. I think you may have missed the point of his post.
Well considering it likely was not recorded before the Chinese nation. I failed to see a point in the first place. (Unless he has some information about sailors 5000 years ago that I do not. But his point could only be that it doesn't matter that China was there first, which leads to my assumption. Logic!
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On September 16 2012 10:52 ANoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:46 zdfgucker wrote:On September 16 2012 10:41 Angel_ wrote:
And I'm still missing what actually provoked the rioting, and why the chinese people are being "allowed" to riot in the first place. It's about the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands, Japan and China are battling over it. There's been, err, cultural bias for quite some time, it's just a good opportunity to riot, I guess. Personally, I think it's useless as it doesn't change anything. I'm probably not alone in thinking this, but it also appears that the American government has been helping to spark this continued rivalry between the two countries, and that the Chinese government is clearly the major sponsor of aggressive anti-Japanese sentiment. You're not allowed to protest the regime, so whine about the Japanese like a good party member.
The Chinese government are definitely not sponsoring this behaviour, this is the general sentiment among the people. But they are doing nothing to stop it as the Chinese government is in a very fragile state at the moment
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This thread is again veering into an argument over whether Japan needs to apologize and I just don't think that's relevant.
Words are cheap, and actions speak louder than words.
What's happening in that area of the world is that countries are competing over limited resources, and that in this competition, old wounds that have never healed have been re-opened, and the Chinese, in this case, are finding that those wounds still hurt.
They have chosen to express their anger and indignation through riots, and the Chinese government is not suppressing it because it's one way for the public to let off steam during a fragile time in Chinese politics, during which the government wants to stay low.
I don't think there's anything out of the normal range of human behavior about this.
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On September 16 2012 10:48 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:45 Kvacksalvaren wrote:On September 16 2012 10:09 ymir233 wrote:On September 16 2012 09:49 reDicE wrote:On September 16 2012 09:43 ymir233 wrote:
A poor and greedy move for Japan to try and take the Diaoyu Islands for themselves before Dokdo. Now they're gonna get it lololols. Japan isn't trying to "take" the islands. It's already theirs. Japan annexed the islands after the First Sino-Japanese war in 1895. They were taken by the US after WWII. The US gave them back the islands in the San Francisco peace treaty in 1971. China never even cared about the islands until it was found that there were oil and natural gas reserves near the island. There was a history of both nations claiming the island before the annexation, and China recorded its existence before Japan did. It's not like in 1895 the Japanese were suddenly like "oh shit our ships just bumped into an unknown island, better take it now".... I'd go so far as to say that it's existence was recorded long before there was such a thing as a Chinese nation. Why don't those people get the islands? So you agree that the country will the biggest muscles to flex controls the land. (as has always been the case) So you should see nothing wrong with China trying to take it back now.
What I'm saying is that this is the inherent flaw in all territorial conflict, there is no relevance to any country's claim on any piece of land, anywhere.
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On September 16 2012 10:44 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:38 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly You accuse people of simplifying, and then describe the Nanking Massacre as a 'massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians?' Comeon. It involved 'massacre contests' and the rape of infants, all sanctioned by the high command. The analogy between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is appealing to historians and the public beacause it's convincing. Both regimes had a strong belief in their racial superiority, and it was shown by the terrible things they did to the world. In fact, looking at the evidence, I would much rather be invaded by Nazis than the Japanese. Just 56 Chinese prisoners of war were released after the war - everyone else was killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimesFor anyone who hasn't read up on it before, that wikipedia page should be pause for reflection. But beyond that, any history of the time is profoundly disturbing. I still can't shake the story of the Japanese using Chinese prisoners and rats to experiment with bubonic plague, and once the trials had finished letting the rats out into the Chinese city, killing thousands upon thousands. The Japanese culture at this time was geniunely sickening, and the lack of a deep apology, or a cultural background of repentance forces me to side with China. Look at Germany - they have repentant monuments to the holocaust, a rich literary field of repentence, and nationwide soul searching. Japan have...some insincere apologies, and an attempt to rewrite history. A long way to go. To step away from history to more personal experiences, I've talked to a lot of Chinese about this debate, and they are fairly pragmatic. Everyone I've spoken to says that if Japan were to deeply apologise, and return the islands, they would be prepared to let bygones be bygones - after all, it is in the past. But by refusing to accept their crimes, they are keeping the wounds open, and well salted. Nazi Germany was basically millions of normal people fighting for their country plus the SS committing war crimes. Imperial Japan was millions of people thinking they are a superior race and a large % of them committing war crimes. The German army was very professional, in 1 week of American occupation the Americans raped more German women than the amount of French women their army raped in the whole 4 years.
You should use that as basis for a thesis.
Study on American versus German Professionalism: A Comparison of Rape Statistics.
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EPT
