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On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion.
Interesting that all the koreans you've met hate Japan. I actually know a Japanese girl and Korean girl that just got married a few months back.
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On September 16 2012 10:17 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. Interesting that all the koreans you've met hate Japan. I actually know a Japanese girl and Korean girl that just got married a few months back.
Wait what? With each other?
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On September 16 2012 10:20 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:17 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. Interesting that all the koreans you've met hate Japan. I actually know a Japanese girl and Korean girl that just got married a few months back. Wait what? With each other?
Yes. Have you not heard of gay marriage before?
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On September 16 2012 10:17 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. Interesting that all the koreans you've met hate Japan. I actually know a Japanese girl and Korean girl that just got married a few months back.
My personal overwhelming experience is that the "hatred" only extends as far as hating Japan and it's government as opposed to individuals. I have KMT roots as my grandfather was an officer but my father an i both have Japanese friends that we get a long fine with.
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On September 16 2012 10:20 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:20 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 10:17 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. Interesting that all the koreans you've met hate Japan. I actually know a Japanese girl and Korean girl that just got married a few months back. Wait what? With each other? Yes. Have you not heard of gay marriage before?
Well she's clearly not the average korean then
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plus its not the hate for the people themselves, its not like the average chinese/korean holds a japanese person responsible for these crimes, but the fact that the government constantly back track on their apologies and the general apathy of the japanese public (what happened happened attitude), and the fact that they are just waiting for the last of the people that survived these atrocities to die (most are in their 80's 90's).
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As effeminate as the 'ideal' Kpop star is it baffles me how homophobic not only Koreans but i feel east asians in general are.
And in SEA it's lady boys galore.
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On September 16 2012 10:20 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:20 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 10:17 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. Interesting that all the koreans you've met hate Japan. I actually know a Japanese girl and Korean girl that just got married a few months back. Wait what? With each other? Yes. Have you not heard of gay marriage before?
Yes, but I was under the impression that there is a lot of homophobia in that part of the world so most gays keep it secret.
Regardless, it looks like you got some awesome acquaintances. 
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WWII was not long ago and the japanese atrocities actually extended to chinese populations in occupied territories during the war (e.g. sook ching operation). you really dont need a government to instigate hatred when an entire generation has grown up with grandparents suffering scars from the actions of japanese soldiers and current high ranking japanese officials making annual publicized trips to honor the former's "sacrifices".
but to return to the matter at hand, this isn't the only historical current, the historical view of china as a hegemony in the east-asian region is also relevant. to side track a bit, one of the controversial issues in korea-japan history is the idea of which country was subordinate to the other (one of the recent findings over the last decade was a publication of a japanese sword as a tribute gift to korea and a korean historian has argued on the basis this was proof that korea > japan).
however, after WWII, japan emerged to be the most economically / politically and culturally relevant country in the region. with china's recent economic reemergence and s.korea's "hallyu" / technology wave going on, it is only inevitable the three are gonna clash on even the most absurd historical issues (i have seen chinese and korean phds holders argue vehemently on whether LoL's ahri* should be a korean or chinese voice) not to mention the bigger lingering political issues at hand.
*its a debate on whether the nine tail fox legend was originally from korea or china (and i am sure a japanese dude would have something to say about it too)
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On September 16 2012 10:24 calderon wrote:
plus its not the hate for the people themselves, its not like the average chinese/korean holds a japanese person responsible for these crimes, but the fact that the government constantly back track on their apologies and the general apathy of the japanese public (what happened happened attitude), and the fact that they are just waiting for the last of the people that survived these atrocities to die (most are in their 80's 90's).
... I'm not so sure about that, the 'monkeys' slur is ridiculously common here
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On September 16 2012 10:26 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:20 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:20 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 10:17 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. Interesting that all the koreans you've met hate Japan. I actually know a Japanese girl and Korean girl that just got married a few months back. Wait what? With each other? Yes. Have you not heard of gay marriage before? Yes, but I was under the impression that there is a lot of homophobia in that part of the world so most gays keep it secret. Regardless, it looks like you got some awesome acquaintances.
Well, this happened in the US. They were both 100% Korean and Japanese, respectively, though.
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On September 16 2012 10:25 ShadeR wrote:
As effeminate as the 'ideal' Kpop star is it baffles me how homophobic not only Koreans but i feel east asians in general are.
And in SEA it's lady boys galore.
Kayo Police would like to have a word with you.
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On September 16 2012 10:28 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:26 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 10:20 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:20 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 10:17 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. Interesting that all the koreans you've met hate Japan. I actually know a Japanese girl and Korean girl that just got married a few months back. Wait what? With each other? Yes. Have you not heard of gay marriage before? Yes, but I was under the impression that there is a lot of homophobia in that part of the world so most gays keep it secret. Regardless, it looks like you got some awesome acquaintances. Well, this happened in the US. They were both 100% Korean and Japanese, respectively, though.
Ah I see, I guess they are second generation immigrants?
I see most parents of Asian immigrants as being vehemently homophobic. Seriously, my parents even said that Jun Lin (the Chinese guy who got brutally murdered in Canada by some psycho bisexual porn star) deserved what he got because homosexuality = evil etc.
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On September 16 2012 10:27 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:24 calderon wrote:
plus its not the hate for the people themselves, its not like the average chinese/korean holds a japanese person responsible for these crimes, but the fact that the government constantly back track on their apologies and the general apathy of the japanese public (what happened happened attitude), and the fact that they are just waiting for the last of the people that survived these atrocities to die (most are in their 80's 90's). ... I'm not so sure about that, the 'monkeys' slur is ridiculously common here
Yea, well its election time in Korea so I'm sure the politicians are going for nationalistic rhetoric..
and I hear in China the government is going through a transitional phase (bit unsettled) so they can't go against general public sentiment and quell the riots/protests atm. which I think they want due to trade with Japan still being important, although as Japan's main supplier of rare earth minerals (super important to the Japanese industry) they've been threatening to reduce supply and have maybe already cut supply
and the Japanese government is also transitioning with a new party in power. so they'll make sure to not appear weak to the public aka more pushing and shoving
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On September 16 2012 10:33 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:28 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:26 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 10:20 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:20 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 10:17 Voltaire wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. Interesting that all the koreans you've met hate Japan. I actually know a Japanese girl and Korean girl that just got married a few months back. Wait what? With each other? Yes. Have you not heard of gay marriage before? Yes, but I was under the impression that there is a lot of homophobia in that part of the world so most gays keep it secret. Regardless, it looks like you got some awesome acquaintances. Well, this happened in the US. They were both 100% Korean and Japanese, respectively, though. Ah I see, I guess they are second generation immigrants? I see most parents of Asian immigrants as being vehemently homophobic. Seriously, my parents even said that Jun Lin (the Chinese guy who got brutally murdered in Canada by some psycho bisexual porn star) deserved what he got because homosexuality = evil etc.
Wow, that's a really messed up thing to say. And yeah, they are 2nd generation immigrants. From what I've been told (from the cousin of the korean girl), their parents ended up getting over their qualms and are okay with it.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion.
Between this thread and the anti-American Islamic protests thread, one can see the hypocrisy shine as bright as day. I can understand why the Japanese government has not been as apologetic as they should be (though they have issued numerous apologies). You don't see America apologizing for all of its atrocities in the Middle East. Hell, this is a comment from our Vice President after we shot down a commercial Iranian airplane over Iranian territorial waters:
In August 1988 Newsweek quoted Vice President George H. W. Bush as saying "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever. I don't care what the facts are."
^And that sure as hell isn't taught in any history classes.
Japanese atrocities, however, were part of World War 2, a full-scale war. What more do you want from them when they've already apologized? For the record, Japanese atrocities ARE taught in the vast majority of history classes, though they have downplayed the role of 'Comfort Women' recently. The textbook that you are referring to, that downplays Japanese atrocities, was only used in 0.039% of Japanese middle schools (eight private schools and eight public schools), so you are beyond exaggerating (though I believe these schools are in the wrong).
The Japanese government has always been the victim of such hypocrisy. While I do not agree with how they antagonize China and South Korea, the West should also try practicing what they preach.
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On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: Show nested quote +If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly 
You accuse people of simplifying, and then describe the Nanking Massacre as a 'massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians?' Comeon. It involved 'massacre contests' and the rape of infants, all sanctioned by the high command.
The analogy between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is appealing to historians and the public beacause it's convincing. Both regimes had a strong belief in their racial superiority, and it was shown by the terrible things they did to the world. In fact, looking at the evidence, I would much rather be invaded by Nazis than the Japanese. Just 56 Chinese prisoners of war were released after the war - everyone else was killed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
For anyone who hasn't read up on it before, that wikipedia page should be pause for reflection. But beyond that, any history of the time is profoundly disturbing. I still can't shake the story of the Japanese using Chinese prisoners and rats to experiment with bubonic plague, and once the trials had finished letting the rats out into the Chinese city, killing thousands upon thousands.
The Japanese culture at this time was geniunely sickening, and the lack of a deep apology, or a cultural background of repentance forces me to side with China. Look at Germany - they have repentant monuments to the holocaust, a rich literary field of repentence, and nationwide soul searching. Japan have...some insincere apologies, and an attempt to rewrite history. A long way to go.
To step away from history to more personal experiences, I've talked to a lot of Chinese about this debate, and they are fairly pragmatic. Everyone I've spoken to says that if Japan were to deeply apologise, and return the islands, they would be prepared to let bygones be bygones - after all, it is in the past. But by refusing to accept their crimes, they are keeping the wounds open, and well salted.
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I am relatively ignorant when it comes to most aspects of chinese and japanese history and culture in general, but, have Japan and China ever been buddy-buddy?
Beyond that, saying, "oh you know it would go a long way if japan would at least acknowledge..." but why would you expect them to? And why today over any other day? If China had been the "big power" historically, rather than Japan, would anything about their culture and government suggest that to this day they would have apologized either? I'm not saying it's right for japan to have not apologized, but it seems to be a rather easy way for someone to pick on the big guy.
And I'm still missing what actually provoked the rioting, and why the chinese people are being "allowed" to riot in the first place.
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EPT
