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China = brainwashed
China= hates Japan for what they did in WW2.
Raised by Chinese parents.
They read me a news article about possibility of WW3 and how China was going to destroy Japan. I like peace but it's the education that tells children to hate Japan. Chinese culture takes ancestry and history very very seriously. I don't consider Chinese to be violent people but we certainly hold grudges for a very long time. See it as how a redneck think of Arabs.
"They are all terrorists!!!!" and China would be like "Japs killed and raped our ancestors in the most disgusting way possible, they invaded our territory and laughed at how we suffered. They glorified their soldiers with the blood of our people"
As a human being with dignity and conscience, would you be able to make friends with a race that tried to exterminate your own? I don't think North Americans could understand this feeling because it has been relatively peaceful throughout history, you sent troops in both WWs but sending troops is not the same as having it within your country. I don't blame NA but before passing judgement of how silly nationalism and anti-japan movements are, think about it from our perspective. :D
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On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly  This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be.
It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, they don't feel sorry, and they won't let it affect their national interests.
This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue.
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Japan did Alot of unpleasant things to China.
I argee that Japan government should come forward and admit and apolgize for the warcrimes... just like turkey and the armenians.
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On September 16 2012 08:51 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:49 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 08:40 Darpa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. I really dont think this is reasonable. Japan, on numerous occasions has acknowledged the crimes committed during the second world war. Furthermore, you talk about swallowing pride and accepting a past? How about Mao's mass starvation/killings of 50 million Chinese people. Or its brutal invasion and suppression of Tibet. Or how about muslim suppression in its north west. Lets not forget that the SAME PARTY who committed those crimes is still in power. Mao was one of the most brutal leaders in the history of mankind and yet he is still celebrated as a hero by the current party. Maybe China should take a long hard look at its own past before expecting others to do the same. Like you, I don't expect current Chinese people to feel responsible for past events, but suggesting Japan hasnt acknowledged what happened in world war 2 is completely false. Even if it were true, dont you think its pretty hypocritical to not hold the chinese to the same standards of "acknowledgement"? I'm not saying there isnt going to be some bitterness between the two over past events, and to an extent there should be. But making some sort of argument about how the blackness of Japans past deserves resentment but China's does not is pretty much ridiculous. Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right, but this guy is right. The CCP is dodging a lot of flak. You know what's ironic, that the Japanese invasion saved the communist party's ass. They were forced to the middle of nowhere while being pursued by the armies of the KMT all the way to Tibet during the Long March. Mao was probably praying for Japan to invade China, and they did. The instant that happened, KMT had to completely focus on the new threat, and forced to adapt a friendly cooperation with the CCP. During the war, the Red army (later the PLA) benefited massively from it and went from a paltry peasant army to a formidable force with solid base in Northern China. Plus, they avoided as much confrontation with the Japanese as possible in order to save their troops for the civil war. Then, they would smear the KMT for losing against the Japanese, and somehow take all the credit for defeating them. The CCP owns Imperial Japan everything. That's great, but the source of the hatred isn't the CCP. Had the KMT won the Chinese civil war, I don't think anything changes vis-a-vis Japan.
That's not true. Had the KMT won, the US would have a reason to support China. The US is partly to blame. In a typical high school class, you never hear the end of how many Jews died in WW2, but they never focus on any of the violence in China, the horrific human rights violations, wholesale slaughter beyond anything Hitler did. If the CCP had lost, the Americans would have rebuilt China from the ground up, like they did for Japan as a buffer against the Soviet Union. Since they won, the US saw no reason to help them at all, even in terms of history. Not many people realize how much the US actually has an influence on these things, whether passively or actively.
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WWII was a really long time ago, virtually none of the people at that protest were alive back then.
As for the disputes over the islands, that makes sense. It's certainly not enough for a war to break out over, but until the island disputes are resolved there will be increased diplomatic tensions.
On September 16 2012 09:18 Kamille wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:51 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:49 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 08:40 Darpa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. I really dont think this is reasonable. Japan, on numerous occasions has acknowledged the crimes committed during the second world war. Furthermore, you talk about swallowing pride and accepting a past? How about Mao's mass starvation/killings of 50 million Chinese people. Or its brutal invasion and suppression of Tibet. Or how about muslim suppression in its north west. Lets not forget that the SAME PARTY who committed those crimes is still in power. Mao was one of the most brutal leaders in the history of mankind and yet he is still celebrated as a hero by the current party. Maybe China should take a long hard look at its own past before expecting others to do the same. Like you, I don't expect current Chinese people to feel responsible for past events, but suggesting Japan hasnt acknowledged what happened in world war 2 is completely false. Even if it were true, dont you think its pretty hypocritical to not hold the chinese to the same standards of "acknowledgement"? I'm not saying there isnt going to be some bitterness between the two over past events, and to an extent there should be. But making some sort of argument about how the blackness of Japans past deserves resentment but China's does not is pretty much ridiculous. Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right, but this guy is right. The CCP is dodging a lot of flak. You know what's ironic, that the Japanese invasion saved the communist party's ass. They were forced to the middle of nowhere while being pursued by the armies of the KMT all the way to Tibet during the Long March. Mao was probably praying for Japan to invade China, and they did. The instant that happened, KMT had to completely focus on the new threat, and forced to adapt a friendly cooperation with the CCP. During the war, the Red army (later the PLA) benefited massively from it and went from a paltry peasant army to a formidable force with solid base in Northern China. Plus, they avoided as much confrontation with the Japanese as possible in order to save their troops for the civil war. Then, they would smear the KMT for losing against the Japanese, and somehow take all the credit for defeating them. The CCP owns Imperial Japan everything. That's great, but the source of the hatred isn't the CCP. Had the KMT won the Chinese civil war, I don't think anything changes vis-a-vis Japan. That's not true. Had the KMT won, the US would have a reason to support China. The US is partly to blame. In a typical high school class, you never hear the end of how many Jews died in WW2, but they never focus on any of the violence in China, the horrific human rights violations, wholesale slaughter beyond anything Hitler did. If the CCP had lost, the Americans would have rebuilt China from the ground up, like they did for Japan as a buffer against the Soviet Union. Since they won, the US saw no reason to help them at all, even in terms of history. Not many people realize how much the US actually has an influence on these things, whether passively or actively.
What you say about what you're taught in US high schools is so true... And to make matters even worse, my teachers went on and on about the 6 million Jews that died in the holocaust but literally never once mentioned the other 5 million people who were killed along with them (gays, gypsies, eastern Europeans, handicapped people, etc.) Also none of the war atrocities committed by the allies were even mentioned (tons of atrocities on both sides- it was a world war for christ's sake)
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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
There has been a lot of talk about apologies, atonement and the taking of resposibilities, but all of it seems very simplistic.
As it turns out, just about every single nation on earth has commited atrocities, and the apologies for these acts have never been more than symbolic gestures.
Countries are like people, because they are run by people, and the crimes commited by other people always come in stark contrast to the totally justifiable mistakes I might have made.
And on the main note, concerning the "grassroots" thing.
Yes, major civil unrest, not government condoned, but on the other hand, if there is a deeply dissatisfied group that feel violated by the Japanese, the government would conveniently prefer that to groups that remember the crimes, past and present, of your locally "elected" "civil servants".
On September 16 2012 07:22 Slow Motion wrote:
Britain should have just given the Chinese victims in WW2 some land in the Middle East. This method has been proven to resolve all the conflicts
I lol'd
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue.
Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests.
If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?
Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.'
By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so.
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On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so.
I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from?
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On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so.
Visiting the Yasukuni Shrine and revising textbooks, in the eyes of the Chinese and the Koreans, is rubbing salt onto an open wound. That the Japanese people are against rubbing salt onto an open wound doesn't say a lot about them except that they're not sadists.
In no way are these sufficient for demonstrating remorse, and you basically agree with me that the Japanese people do not feel remorseful over what happened - which is what I've been saying all along. Had they felt genuine remorse, they would be able to sacrifice their national interests to achieve forgiveness. But they don't and they won't.
I'm not blaming them. I'm just saying it's human nature.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from?
It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago.
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A poor and greedy move for Japan to try and take the Diaoyu Islands for themselves before Dokdo. Now they're gonna get it lololols.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 09:38 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. Visiting the Yasukuni Shrine and revising textbooks, in the eyes of the Chinese and the Koreans, is rubbing salt onto an open wound. That the Japanese people are against rubbing salt onto an open wound doesn't say a lot about them except that they're not sadists. In no way are these sufficient for demonstrating remorse, and you basically agree with me that the Japanese people do not feel remorseful over what happened - which is what I've been saying all along. Had they felt genuine remorse, they would be able to sacrifice their national interests to achieve forgiveness. But they don't and they won't. I'm not blaming them. I'm just saying it's human nature.
So... what exactly are you saying? :| That the Japanese should hand over the islands and show some genuine remorse? Or that it's okay that they don't because it's human nature? If it's the latter then, yeah, okay, I agree.
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On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago.
Can you link anything for me pls. I find it hard to believe China was invading anyone during that time period while it was getting raped by foreign powers.
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Stupidity from patriotism knows no bounds.
I suspect the Chinese government may have an indirect hand over the organization of such protests. If say, the protest is over something done by the communist party, those who attempted to rally a crowd would have been arrested for disturbing the peace before anything big can happen.
I doubt that many countries in the world would be more than happy to admit to their own wrong doings in their textbooks. Just as Japan would not teach their students "our emperor fucked up and ordered an invasion of China and massacred a whole city of people", the Chinese government would not allow their students to learn about the dark periods of China's cultural revolution (which still goes on to a certain degree today).
All in the name of patriotism.
As silly as the protest may seem, there are still countless numbers of Americans who would openly criticize Japan for "Pearl Harbor" and would enjoy the sight of seeing misfortunes fall upon other countries.
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On September 16 2012 09:43 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:38 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. Visiting the Yasukuni Shrine and revising textbooks, in the eyes of the Chinese and the Koreans, is rubbing salt onto an open wound. That the Japanese people are against rubbing salt onto an open wound doesn't say a lot about them except that they're not sadists. In no way are these sufficient for demonstrating remorse, and you basically agree with me that the Japanese people do not feel remorseful over what happened - which is what I've been saying all along. Had they felt genuine remorse, they would be able to sacrifice their national interests to achieve forgiveness. But they don't and they won't. I'm not blaming them. I'm just saying it's human nature. So... what exactly are you saying? :| That the Japanese should hand over the islands and show some genuine remorse? Or that it's okay that they don't because it's human nature? If it's the latter then, yeah, okay, I agree.
Whether it's okay depends on whether you are satisfied with human nature. I'm not making a judgment call beyond saying that the Japanese and the Chinese are both acting in line with human nature.
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On September 16 2012 09:43 ymir233 wrote:
A poor and greedy move for Japan to try and take the Diaoyu Islands for themselves before Dokdo. Now they're gonna get it lololols.
Japan isn't trying to "take" the islands. It's already theirs. Japan annexed the islands after the First Sino-Japanese war in 1895. They were taken by the US after WWII. The US gave them back the islands in the San Francisco peace treaty in 1971. China never even cared about the islands until it was found that there were oil and natural gas reserves near the island.
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On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. I find it hard to believe China was invading anyone during that time period while it was getting raped by foreign powers.
This is all I could find
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan
and that's the Mongols, not the Chinese.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls.
Oops, sorry, it was long before the Tokugawa shogunate, my bad. It was while China was under the Yuan dynasty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan
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On September 16 2012 09:50 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit:[quote] I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. Oops, sorry, it was long before the Tokugawa shogunate, my bad. It was while China was under the Yuan dynasty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan
Mongol = Chinese? That seems akin to saying France invaded the USSR in WWII.
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EPT
