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On September 16 2012 08:29 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:26 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:20 Caphe wrote:On September 16 2012 08:14 Brutaxilos wrote:
It always makes me feel bad when the Asian countries clash. Both sides (including Korea) have done wrong and I think they should really just move on.
An Asian Union would be a massive economic powerhouse and would surely benefit the world. Let's hope that in the near future something like that can happen. Nah, as someone from the East Asia culture sphere( China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam) I can assure you that Japan, Korea, Vietnam will never get along with China. It has been like that for a thousand years. Korea and Vietnam has been fighting the Chinese for much of their history, Japan surprisingly was a nation that has the most peaceful relationship with China untill the beginning of the 20th century. Korea actually hasn't fought China for over a thousand years. They were allies for the bulk of the last millennium. Things do change. The so-called allies between ancient China and ancient Korea is just because they both afraid of invasion from the North. They were always ready to go at each other throat though.
Actually that's a pretty huge oversimplification.
There were times in which the people Gorguryeo were allied with ended up conquering all of China; there were times in which Korea went to war with China; there were times in which China made Korea its vassal; there were times in which both countries were mutually independent; there were times in which China tried to help Korea gain independence from a brutal and venal Japanese occupation.
Sino-Korean relations have always been the most complex relations in E and SE Asia.
Unlike that is Sino-Vietnamese relations, which have been characterized by a near-1000 year struggle to maintain independence from brutal and venal Chinese dynasties. Even though I myself am Chinese, I sorely sympathize with what the Viets had to go through.
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On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications.
I really dont think this is reasonable.
Japan, on numerous occasions has acknowledged the crimes committed during the second world war. Furthermore, you talk about swallowing pride and accepting a past? How about Mao's mass starvation/killings of 50 million Chinese people. Or its brutal invasion and suppression of Tibet. Or how about muslim suppression in its north west. Lets not forget that the SAME PARTY who committed those crimes is still in power. Mao was one of the most brutal leaders in the history of mankind and yet he is still celebrated as a hero by the current party. Maybe China should take a long hard look at its own past before expecting others to do the same.
Like you, I don't expect current Chinese people to feel responsible for past events, but suggesting Japan hasnt acknowledged what happened in world war 2 is completely false. Even if it were true, dont you think its pretty hypocritical to not hold the chinese to the same standards of "acknowledgement"?
I'm not saying there isnt going to be some bitterness between the two over past events, and to an extent there should be. But making some sort of argument about how the blackness of Japans past deserves resentment but China's does not is pretty much ridiculous.
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On September 16 2012 08:34 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:29 Caphe wrote:On September 16 2012 08:26 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:20 Caphe wrote:On September 16 2012 08:14 Brutaxilos wrote:
It always makes me feel bad when the Asian countries clash. Both sides (including Korea) have done wrong and I think they should really just move on.
An Asian Union would be a massive economic powerhouse and would surely benefit the world. Let's hope that in the near future something like that can happen. Nah, as someone from the East Asia culture sphere( China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam) I can assure you that Japan, Korea, Vietnam will never get along with China. It has been like that for a thousand years. Korea and Vietnam has been fighting the Chinese for much of their history, Japan surprisingly was a nation that has the most peaceful relationship with China untill the beginning of the 20th century. Korea actually hasn't fought China for over a thousand years. They were allies for the bulk of the last millennium. Things do change. The so-called allies between ancient China and ancient Korea is just because they both afraid of invasion from the North. They were always ready to go at each other throat though. You know what they say - the enemy of your enemy is your friend. It certainly helped that they had mutual enemies. But beyond that, they were also both highly Confucian countries, and had a sort of ideological solidarity via that. But that's all in the past. Two centuries ago, China and Japan weren't enemies. Today, they are.
Yep, the only things that make East Asia difference from the Middle East is that all four countries are highly Confucian.
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On September 16 2012 08:31 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:26 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:22 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:10 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:49 Azarkon wrote:
It's always easier for the victimizer to move on than the victim. That's normal, that's standard. Japan has not moved on from the US nuking Japan - not at the ground level, where you still find Japanese who are extremely anti-American, I don't see why China is supposed to get over Japan invading them and slaughtering their people.
For those bringing up Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. - you think those countries are going to forgive China when / if they become independent? Of course not. You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you? But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year. Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk? You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever? So if 1) I kill your mother 2) I lose an arm and all my money 3) I work hard, get a robot arm and live a good life 4) ??? 5) We can be bros if we meet? 6) Cool Be careful with that analogy. Even Chinese officials are careful to make the distinction that they're angry with the Japanese government, not the Japanese people. What you're talking about is closer to a rageful attitude toward the group. Like if a Japanese person killed your mother, you think it's right 20 years later to beat up a Japanese person who might be completely unrelated to the other person or the crime but you're angry at them anyways just because they're Japanese. Except the islands in dispute were taken during the war, so my analogy is far better than yours. Try this, if China grows strong and takes Hawaii for 100 years and settle it. 100 years later America is stronger again, do you just let China keep it because taking the Islands back would be taking out the grudge on people unrelated to what happened 100 years ago? The islands were taken long before World War II ever started, if you want to get historical. You don't want to go the legal route because Japan will win. The islands are theirs if you follow the paper trail. China has no real evidence that they ever owned or cared about those islands before someone said there might be oil in that area. What legal rout? There is no paper trail, islands have always gone to whoever can flex the biggest muscle at the time. If China invaded and took Japan, you think Japan can bring in a "paper trail" to prove the island belongs to them? Oh c'mon, surely you see the ice you're skating on is getting thinner and thinner. The irony is that if you're going the "biggest muscle" route, you should really be angry at the US, not Japan. The US gave the islands to Japan so it's theirs, by your own logic. Japan didn't "take" anything, the US did.
I'm not mad at anyone.
And by my logic Japan took it in the war, so it's their fault(honestly not sure how this was not obvious to you), logically it is also partially the U.S.A.'s fault for giving it to Japan (which is completely logical for political reasons since at the time China was no threat and the U.S.A. wanted Japan on their side of the cold war).
Are you purposely misinterpreting because your ice has already cracked and you're trying to showel some snow to cover it? Because you don't seem like someone that can't comprehend simple concepts.
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On September 16 2012 08:17 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:14 WirelessWaffle wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage.  oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". On September 16 2012 08:03 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:59 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage. oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". Thank you. That's exactly what was bothering me about this thread. Chinese people, according to this thread, need to stop being ridiculous, "just move on", a reason to lose faith in humanity... Whyre those silly Chinese still so mad? Go and read that wiki snippet someone posted from the rape of Nanking and then tell me that latent anger over that is "ridiculous". A riot is never justified, They are in fact stupid, but the feeling behind this are far from being worthy of ridicule. God forbid anything like the Japanese occupation ever happen to the US because our eventual reactions would make these Chinese rioters look like saints. But there's a difference between remembering an atrocity and taking action as a result. The US DOES recall Pearl Harbor day every year. But we don't take the day to celebrate by breaking Japanese-made goods or attacking the embassy. Nobody is denying that the Japanese did terrible things. But they paid for it in blood and destruction and humiliation. How much shame is enough? Again, what is so crazy about some hooligans getting mad over a massacre and smashing some shops that it's considered ridiculous when in the west hooligans smash shops over much smaller issues (like a hockey game... lol). You're saying it like everyone accepted it and the people (who had to wear masks and were obviously there to vandalize instead of watching a hockey game) who did the vandalizing got off with no punishment, and that everyone was fine with it. Last I checked there were videos of citizens starting fights with the vandals, protecting property, and after all the BS they helped clean things up and repair places that were destroyed. Stop using this analogy it's awful. lol what do you not understand about the fact that if riots happen over something like a hockey game there's nothing surprising about riots happening over a long term hatred. Sorry my simple analogy is over your head, if I think of an even simpler one I'll remember to pm. P.S. arguing against a stance that wasn't even taken doesn't look very intelligent  Maybe this analogy will help. If you say an apple is red Me saying apples are not blue doesn't refute you
You said riots happened in canada over a hockey and no one batted an eyelash. If you read my last post i stated that this was false.
Therefore using riots over a smaller incident that were condemned by pretty much everyone (including canadian police and fellow canadian citizens) to say a larger scale riot is fine because they are about war crimes that happened a long long time ago is just...
Last reply in this thread it's just not worth it.
The hatred may be valid but the vandalism is dumb. And it's not a select few (who's sole goal is vandalism) who planned this followed by a bunch of sheep, people aren't trying to hide their identities in any of the photos.
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On September 16 2012 08:42 WirelessWaffle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:17 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:14 WirelessWaffle wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage. oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". On September 16 2012 08:03 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:59 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage. oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". Thank you. That's exactly what was bothering me about this thread. Chinese people, according to this thread, need to stop being ridiculous, "just move on", a reason to lose faith in humanity... Whyre those silly Chinese still so mad? Go and read that wiki snippet someone posted from the rape of Nanking and then tell me that latent anger over that is "ridiculous". A riot is never justified, They are in fact stupid, but the feeling behind this are far from being worthy of ridicule. God forbid anything like the Japanese occupation ever happen to the US because our eventual reactions would make these Chinese rioters look like saints. But there's a difference between remembering an atrocity and taking action as a result. The US DOES recall Pearl Harbor day every year. But we don't take the day to celebrate by breaking Japanese-made goods or attacking the embassy. Nobody is denying that the Japanese did terrible things. But they paid for it in blood and destruction and humiliation. How much shame is enough? Again, what is so crazy about some hooligans getting mad over a massacre and smashing some shops that it's considered ridiculous when in the west hooligans smash shops over much smaller issues (like a hockey game... lol). You're saying it like everyone accepted it and the people (who had to wear masks and were obviously there to vandalize instead of watching a hockey game) who did the vandalizing got off with no punishment, and that everyone was fine with it. Last I checked there were videos of citizens starting fights with the vandals, protecting property, and after all the BS they helped clean things up and repair places that were destroyed. Stop using this analogy it's awful. lol what do you not understand about the fact that if riots happen over something like a hockey game there's nothing surprising about riots happening over a long term hatred. Sorry my simple analogy is over your head, if I think of an even simpler one I'll remember to pm. P.S. arguing against a stance that wasn't even taken doesn't look very intelligent Maybe this analogy will help. If you say an apple is red Me saying apples are not blue doesn't refute you You said riots happened in canada over a hockey and no one batted an eyelash. If you read my last post i stated that this was false. Therefore using riots over a smaller incident that were condemned by pretty much everyone (including canadian police and fellow canadian citizens) to say a larger scale riot is fine because they are about war crimes that happened a long long time ago is just... Last reply in this thread it's just not worth it. The hatred may be valid but the vandalism is dumb. And it's not a select few (who's sole goal is vandalism) who planned this followed by a bunch of sheep, people aren't trying to hide their identities in any of the photos.
Apples are not blue.  Do I get a medal for winning this argument?
P.S. I never said no one batted an eye at the Riots in Vancouver, all I said was people made a smaller deal out of that than the riots over the islands when the later issue was obvious a more reasonable issue to riot over (not that I agree with it).
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On September 16 2012 08:41 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:31 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:26 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:22 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:10 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:
[quote]
You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you?
But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year.
Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk? You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever? So if 1) I kill your mother 2) I lose an arm and all my money 3) I work hard, get a robot arm and live a good life 4) ??? 5) We can be bros if we meet? 6) Cool Be careful with that analogy. Even Chinese officials are careful to make the distinction that they're angry with the Japanese government, not the Japanese people. What you're talking about is closer to a rageful attitude toward the group. Like if a Japanese person killed your mother, you think it's right 20 years later to beat up a Japanese person who might be completely unrelated to the other person or the crime but you're angry at them anyways just because they're Japanese. Except the islands in dispute were taken during the war, so my analogy is far better than yours. Try this, if China grows strong and takes Hawaii for 100 years and settle it. 100 years later America is stronger again, do you just let China keep it because taking the Islands back would be taking out the grudge on people unrelated to what happened 100 years ago? The islands were taken long before World War II ever started, if you want to get historical. You don't want to go the legal route because Japan will win. The islands are theirs if you follow the paper trail. China has no real evidence that they ever owned or cared about those islands before someone said there might be oil in that area. What legal rout? There is no paper trail, islands have always gone to whoever can flex the biggest muscle at the time. If China invaded and took Japan, you think Japan can bring in a "paper trail" to prove the island belongs to them? Oh c'mon, surely you see the ice you're skating on is getting thinner and thinner. The irony is that if you're going the "biggest muscle" route, you should really be angry at the US, not Japan. The US gave the islands to Japan so it's theirs, by your own logic. Japan didn't "take" anything, the US did. I'm not mad at anyone. And by my logic Japan took it in the war, so it's their fault(honestly not sure how this was not obvious to you), logically it is also partially the U.S.A.'s fault for giving it to Japan (which is completely logical for political reasons since at the time China was no threat and the U.S.A. wanted Japan on their side of the cold war). Are you purposely misinterpreting because your ice has already cracked and you're trying to showel some snow to cover it? Because you don't seem like someone that can't comprehend simple concepts.
"The Japanese central government formally annexed the islands on 14 January 1895."
That was before WWI and WWII, mate.
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On September 16 2012 08:40 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. I really dont think this is reasonable. Japan, on numerous occasions has acknowledged the crimes committed during the second world war. Furthermore, you talk about swallowing pride and accepting a past? How about Mao's mass starvation/killings of 50 million Chinese people. Or its brutal invasion and suppression of Tibet. Or how about muslim suppression in its north west. Lets not forget that the SAME PARTY who committed those crimes is still in power. Mao was one of the most brutal leaders in the history of mankind and yet he is still celebrated as a hero by the current party. Maybe China should take a long hard look at its own past before expecting others to do the same. Like you, I don't expect current Chinese people to feel responsible for past events, but suggesting Japan hasnt acknowledged what happened in world war 2 is completely false. Even if it were true, dont you think its pretty hypocritical to not hold the chinese to the same standards of "acknowledgement"? I'm not saying there isnt going to be some bitterness between the two over past events, and to an extent there should be. But making some sort of argument about how the blackness of Japans past deserves resentment but China's does not is pretty much ridiculous.
Nobody is guiltless, but that has never stopped people from hating each other over past wrongs. Saying that the Chinese are not supposed to feel deep resentment towards Japan because they've committed evils themselves is again not understanding human nature.
When two gangs war, it doesn't matter whether both of them are criminals. They still hate each other's guts.
The only thing you're able to say is that nationalism / collectivism is a bit retarded because we ought to hate the leaders who caused the suffering and not the people who suffered on both sides. However, it turns out that humans have a very "us" vs. "them" mentality and are highly collectivist, having developed in a tribal environment for hundreds of thousands of years. They are thus not able to achieve solidarity with "them" against "us." That too is human nature.
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we are such a cursed race
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On September 16 2012 08:40 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. I really dont think this is reasonable. Japan, on numerous occasions has acknowledged the crimes committed during the second world war. Furthermore, you talk about swallowing pride and accepting a past? How about Mao's mass starvation/killings of 50 million Chinese people. Or its brutal invasion and suppression of Tibet. Or how about muslim suppression in its north west. Lets not forget that the SAME PARTY who committed those crimes is still in power. Mao was one of the most brutal leaders in the history of mankind and yet he is still celebrated as a hero by the current party. Maybe China should take a long hard look at its own past before expecting others to do the same. Like you, I don't expect current Chinese people to feel responsible for past events, but suggesting Japan hasnt acknowledged what happened in world war 2 is completely false. Even if it were true, dont you think its pretty hypocritical to not hold the chinese to the same standards of "acknowledgement"? I'm not saying there isnt going to be some bitterness between the two over past events, and to an extent there should be. But making some sort of argument about how the blackness of Japans past deserves resentment but China's does not is pretty much ridiculous.
Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right, but this guy is right. The CCP is dodging a lot of flak.
You know what's ironic, that the Japanese invasion saved the communist party's ass. They were forced to the middle of nowhere while being pursued by the armies of the KMT all the way to Tibet during the Long March. Mao was probably praying for Japan to invade China, and they did. The instant that happened, KMT had to completely focus on the new threat, and forced to adapt a friendly cooperation with the CCP.
During the war, the Red army (later the PLA) benefited massively from it and went from a paltry peasant army to a formidable force with solid base in Northern China. Plus, they avoided as much confrontation with the Japanese as possible in order to save their troops for the civil war. Then, they would smear the KMT for losing against the Japanese, and somehow take all the credit for defeating them.
The CCP owns Imperial Japan everything.
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On September 16 2012 08:41 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:31 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:26 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:22 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:10 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:
[quote]
You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you?
But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year.
Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk? You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever? So if 1) I kill your mother 2) I lose an arm and all my money 3) I work hard, get a robot arm and live a good life 4) ??? 5) We can be bros if we meet? 6) Cool Be careful with that analogy. Even Chinese officials are careful to make the distinction that they're angry with the Japanese government, not the Japanese people. What you're talking about is closer to a rageful attitude toward the group. Like if a Japanese person killed your mother, you think it's right 20 years later to beat up a Japanese person who might be completely unrelated to the other person or the crime but you're angry at them anyways just because they're Japanese. Except the islands in dispute were taken during the war, so my analogy is far better than yours. Try this, if China grows strong and takes Hawaii for 100 years and settle it. 100 years later America is stronger again, do you just let China keep it because taking the Islands back would be taking out the grudge on people unrelated to what happened 100 years ago? The islands were taken long before World War II ever started, if you want to get historical. You don't want to go the legal route because Japan will win. The islands are theirs if you follow the paper trail. China has no real evidence that they ever owned or cared about those islands before someone said there might be oil in that area. What legal rout? There is no paper trail, islands have always gone to whoever can flex the biggest muscle at the time. If China invaded and took Japan, you think Japan can bring in a "paper trail" to prove the island belongs to them? Oh c'mon, surely you see the ice you're skating on is getting thinner and thinner. The irony is that if you're going the "biggest muscle" route, you should really be angry at the US, not Japan. The US gave the islands to Japan so it's theirs, by your own logic. Japan didn't "take" anything, the US did. I'm not mad at anyone. And by my logic Japan took it in the war, so it's their fault(honestly not sure how this was not obvious to you), logically it is also partially the U.S.A.'s fault for giving it to Japan (which is completely logical for political reasons since at the time China was no threat and the U.S.A. wanted Japan on their side of the cold war). Are you purposely misinterpreting because your ice has already cracked and you're trying to showel some snow to cover it? Because you don't seem like someone that can't comprehend simple concepts.
Japan annexed the Senkaku islands in 1895. The US took it as part of the Japanese empire after World War II. The US transferred it to Japanese control in 1972. I don't see how China (or Taiwan) has any case at all that it's theirs.
China might as well claim Northern Ireland from the UK.
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so whats the chance of this leading to an actual war?
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On September 16 2012 08:49 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:40 Darpa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. I really dont think this is reasonable. Japan, on numerous occasions has acknowledged the crimes committed during the second world war. Furthermore, you talk about swallowing pride and accepting a past? How about Mao's mass starvation/killings of 50 million Chinese people. Or its brutal invasion and suppression of Tibet. Or how about muslim suppression in its north west. Lets not forget that the SAME PARTY who committed those crimes is still in power. Mao was one of the most brutal leaders in the history of mankind and yet he is still celebrated as a hero by the current party. Maybe China should take a long hard look at its own past before expecting others to do the same. Like you, I don't expect current Chinese people to feel responsible for past events, but suggesting Japan hasnt acknowledged what happened in world war 2 is completely false. Even if it were true, dont you think its pretty hypocritical to not hold the chinese to the same standards of "acknowledgement"? I'm not saying there isnt going to be some bitterness between the two over past events, and to an extent there should be. But making some sort of argument about how the blackness of Japans past deserves resentment but China's does not is pretty much ridiculous. Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right, but this guy is right. The CCP is dodging a lot of flak. You know what's ironic, that the Japanese invasion saved the communist party's ass. They were forced to the middle of nowhere while being pursued by the armies of the KMT all the way to Tibet during the Long March. Mao was probably praying for Japan to invade China, and they did. The instant that happened, KMT had to completely focus on the new threat, and forced to adapt a friendly cooperation with the CCP. During the war, the Red army (later the PLA) benefited massively from it and went from a paltry peasant army to a formidable force with solid base in Northern China. Plus, they avoided as much confrontation with the Japanese as possible in order to save their troops for the civil war. Then, they would smear the KMT for losing against the Japanese, and somehow take all the credit for defeating them. The CCP owns Imperial Japan everything.
That's great, but the source of the hatred isn't the CCP. Had the KMT won the Chinese civil war, I don't think anything changes vis-a-vis Japan.
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On September 16 2012 08:49 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:41 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:31 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:26 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:22 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:15 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:10 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk?
You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever? So if 1) I kill your mother 2) I lose an arm and all my money 3) I work hard, get a robot arm and live a good life 4) ??? 5) We can be bros if we meet? 6) Cool Be careful with that analogy. Even Chinese officials are careful to make the distinction that they're angry with the Japanese government, not the Japanese people. What you're talking about is closer to a rageful attitude toward the group. Like if a Japanese person killed your mother, you think it's right 20 years later to beat up a Japanese person who might be completely unrelated to the other person or the crime but you're angry at them anyways just because they're Japanese. Except the islands in dispute were taken during the war, so my analogy is far better than yours. Try this, if China grows strong and takes Hawaii for 100 years and settle it. 100 years later America is stronger again, do you just let China keep it because taking the Islands back would be taking out the grudge on people unrelated to what happened 100 years ago? The islands were taken long before World War II ever started, if you want to get historical. You don't want to go the legal route because Japan will win. The islands are theirs if you follow the paper trail. China has no real evidence that they ever owned or cared about those islands before someone said there might be oil in that area. What legal rout? There is no paper trail, islands have always gone to whoever can flex the biggest muscle at the time. If China invaded and took Japan, you think Japan can bring in a "paper trail" to prove the island belongs to them? Oh c'mon, surely you see the ice you're skating on is getting thinner and thinner. The irony is that if you're going the "biggest muscle" route, you should really be angry at the US, not Japan. The US gave the islands to Japan so it's theirs, by your own logic. Japan didn't "take" anything, the US did. I'm not mad at anyone. And by my logic Japan took it in the war, so it's their fault(honestly not sure how this was not obvious to you), logically it is also partially the U.S.A.'s fault for giving it to Japan (which is completely logical for political reasons since at the time China was no threat and the U.S.A. wanted Japan on their side of the cold war). Are you purposely misinterpreting because your ice has already cracked and you're trying to showel some snow to cover it? Because you don't seem like someone that can't comprehend simple concepts. Japan annexed the Senkaku islands in 1895. The US took it as part of the Japanese empire after World War II. The US transferred it to Japanese control in 1972. I don't see how China (or Taiwan) has any case at all that it's theirs.
And as I said, they shouldn't have done that. Instead, it should have been given to Taiwan (which was also acquired by Japan in 1895 during for the same treaty).
That was a definite mistake IMO.
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On September 16 2012 08:40 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. I really dont think this is reasonable. Japan, on numerous occasions has acknowledged the crimes committed during the second world war. Furthermore, you talk about swallowing pride and accepting a past? How about Mao's mass starvation/killings of 50 million Chinese people. Or its brutal invasion and suppression of Tibet. Or how about muslim suppression in its north west. Lets not forget that the SAME PARTY who committed those crimes is still in power. Mao was one of the most brutal leaders in the history of mankind and yet he is still celebrated as a hero by the current party. Maybe China should take a long hard look at its own past before expecting others to do the same. Like you, I don't expect current Chinese people to feel responsible for past events, but suggesting Japan hasnt acknowledged what happened in world war 2 is completely false. Even if it were true, dont you think its pretty hypocritical to not hold the chinese to the same standards of "acknowledgement"? I'm not saying there isnt going to be some bitterness between the two over past events, and to an extent there should be. But making some sort of argument about how the blackness of Japans past deserves resentment but China's does not is pretty much ridiculous.
You won't find anyone in China who thinks the cultural revolution was anything but a horrible fuck up. Reverence for Mao is simply an acknowledgment of the modern Chinas bloody beginnings. Let's not extrapolate where China would be now without the CCP.
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On September 16 2012 08:51 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:49 RavenLoud wrote:On September 16 2012 08:40 Darpa wrote:On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. I really dont think this is reasonable. Japan, on numerous occasions has acknowledged the crimes committed during the second world war. Furthermore, you talk about swallowing pride and accepting a past? How about Mao's mass starvation/killings of 50 million Chinese people. Or its brutal invasion and suppression of Tibet. Or how about muslim suppression in its north west. Lets not forget that the SAME PARTY who committed those crimes is still in power. Mao was one of the most brutal leaders in the history of mankind and yet he is still celebrated as a hero by the current party. Maybe China should take a long hard look at its own past before expecting others to do the same. Like you, I don't expect current Chinese people to feel responsible for past events, but suggesting Japan hasnt acknowledged what happened in world war 2 is completely false. Even if it were true, dont you think its pretty hypocritical to not hold the chinese to the same standards of "acknowledgement"? I'm not saying there isnt going to be some bitterness between the two over past events, and to an extent there should be. But making some sort of argument about how the blackness of Japans past deserves resentment but China's does not is pretty much ridiculous. Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right, but this guy is right. The CCP is dodging a lot of flak. You know what's ironic, that the Japanese invasion saved the communist party's ass. They were forced to the middle of nowhere while being pursued by the armies of the KMT all the way to Tibet during the Long March. Mao was probably praying for Japan to invade China, and they did. The instant that happened, KMT had to completely focus on the new threat, and forced to adapt a friendly cooperation with the CCP. During the war, the Red army (later the PLA) benefited massively from it and went from a paltry peasant army to a formidable force with solid base in Northern China. Plus, they avoided as much confrontation with the Japanese as possible in order to save their troops for the civil war. Then, they would smear the KMT for losing against the Japanese, and somehow take all the credit for defeating them. The CCP owns Imperial Japan everything. That's great, but the source of the hatred isn't the CCP. Had the KMT won the Chinese civil war, I don't think anything changes vis-a-vis Japan.
Yep, never claimed otherwise. If anything they should hate Japan more for unleashing the CCP on China.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: Show nested quote +If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly
This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not continuously revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul.
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On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul.
That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates the average Japanese's will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle.
The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.'
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.'
This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be.
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EPT
