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On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:49 Azarkon wrote:
It's always easier for the victimizer to move on than the victim. That's normal, that's standard. Japan has not moved on from the US nuking Japan - not at the ground level, where you still find Japanese who are extremely anti-American, I don't see why China is supposed to get over Japan invading them and slaughtering their people.
For those bringing up Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. - you think those countries are going to forgive China when / if they become independent? Of course not. You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you? But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year. Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk?
You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever?
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On September 16 2012 07:59 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:52 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage.  oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". Thank you. That's exactly what was bothering me about this thread. Chinese people, according to this thread, need to stop being ridiculous, "just move on", a reason to lose faith in humanity... Whyre those silly Chinese still so mad? Go and read that wiki snippet someone posted from the rape of Nanking and then tell me that latent anger over that is "ridiculous". A riot is never justified, They are in fact stupid, but the feeling behind this are far from being worthy of ridicule. God forbid anything like the Japanese occupation ever happen to the US because our eventual reactions would make these Chinese rioters look like saints. But there's a difference between remembering an atrocity and taking action as a result. The US DOES recall Pearl Harbor day every year. But we don't take the day to celebrate by breaking Japanese-made goods or attacking the embassy. Nobody is denying that the Japanese did terrible things. But they paid for it in blood and destruction and humiliation. How much shame is enough?
Again, what is so crazy about some hooligans getting mad over a massacre and smashing some shops that it's considered ridiculous when in the west hooligans smash shops over much smaller issues (like a hockey game... lol).
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On September 16 2012 07:59 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:52 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage. oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". Thank you. That's exactly what was bothering me about this thread. Chinese people, according to this thread, need to stop being ridiculous, "just move on", a reason to lose faith in humanity... Whyre those silly Chinese still so mad? Go and read that wiki snippet someone posted from the rape of Nanking and then tell me that latent anger over that is "ridiculous". A riot is never justified, They are in fact stupid, but the feeling behind this are far from being worthy of ridicule. God forbid anything like the Japanese occupation ever happen to the US because our eventual reactions would make these Chinese rioters look like saints. But there's a difference between remembering an atrocity and taking action as a result. The US DOES recall Pearl Harbor day every year. But we don't take the day to celebrate by breaking Japanese-made goods or attacking the embassy. Nobody is denying that the Japanese did terrible things. But they paid for it in blood and destruction and humiliation. How much shame is enough?
The reason why the thread has gone in this direction is because it needed to be explained that this rioting (which i think is retarded, seriously trashing your own countrymens vehicles and shops) is due to the island dispute rekindling rage.
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On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:49 Azarkon wrote:
It's always easier for the victimizer to move on than the victim. That's normal, that's standard. Japan has not moved on from the US nuking Japan - not at the ground level, where you still find Japanese who are extremely anti-American, I don't see why China is supposed to get over Japan invading them and slaughtering their people.
For those bringing up Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. - you think those countries are going to forgive China when / if they become independent? Of course not. You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you? But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year. Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk? You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever?
How does that even matter? The fact that the assassin suffered at the hands of others - and then bounced back from it - does not in any way lessen his victim's hatred of him.
Imagine for a moment that I killed your friends in cold blood. Then tomorrow I get hit by a car. Does that lessen your hatred of me?
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On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:49 Azarkon wrote:
It's always easier for the victimizer to move on than the victim. That's normal, that's standard. Japan has not moved on from the US nuking Japan - not at the ground level, where you still find Japanese who are extremely anti-American, I don't see why China is supposed to get over Japan invading them and slaughtering their people.
For those bringing up Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. - you think those countries are going to forgive China when / if they become independent? Of course not. You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you? But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year. Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk? You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever?
So if
1) I kill your mother
2) I lose an arm and all my money
3) I work hard, get a robot arm and live a good life
4) ???
5) We can be bros if we meet?
6) Cool
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On September 16 2012 08:00 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:59 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage. oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". Thank you. That's exactly what was bothering me about this thread. Chinese people, according to this thread, need to stop being ridiculous, "just move on", a reason to lose faith in humanity... Whyre those silly Chinese still so mad? Go and read that wiki snippet someone posted from the rape of Nanking and then tell me that latent anger over that is "ridiculous". A riot is never justified, They are in fact stupid, but the feeling behind this are far from being worthy of ridicule. God forbid anything like the Japanese occupation ever happen to the US because our eventual reactions would make these Chinese rioters look like saints. But there's a difference between remembering an atrocity and taking action as a result. The US DOES recall Pearl Harbor day every year. But we don't take the day to celebrate by breaking Japanese-made goods or attacking the embassy. Nobody is denying that the Japanese did terrible things. But they paid for it in blood and destruction and humiliation. How much shame is enough? Again, human nature. The US took revenge for Pearl Harbor. The Chinese never took revenge for anything.
That you know about. Surely the Chinese also captured Japanese POWs and I'm sure they did truly awful things to them. Especially given that survival rates for American POWs in Chinese prison camps during the Korean War were worse than it was under the Nazis.
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The one time in my life I've seen china 'united' in protest, it's for some sort of collective pathological resentment against the Japanese. Yeah, difficult for me to understand. The supposed reasons for this are so far behind in the past, I don't understand why young people would ever engage in this.
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On September 16 2012 08:06 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:00 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 07:59 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage. oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". Thank you. That's exactly what was bothering me about this thread. Chinese people, according to this thread, need to stop being ridiculous, "just move on", a reason to lose faith in humanity... Whyre those silly Chinese still so mad? Go and read that wiki snippet someone posted from the rape of Nanking and then tell me that latent anger over that is "ridiculous". A riot is never justified, They are in fact stupid, but the feeling behind this are far from being worthy of ridicule. God forbid anything like the Japanese occupation ever happen to the US because our eventual reactions would make these Chinese rioters look like saints. But there's a difference between remembering an atrocity and taking action as a result. The US DOES recall Pearl Harbor day every year. But we don't take the day to celebrate by breaking Japanese-made goods or attacking the embassy. Nobody is denying that the Japanese did terrible things. But they paid for it in blood and destruction and humiliation. How much shame is enough? Again, human nature. The US took revenge for Pearl Harbor. The Chinese never took revenge for anything. That you know about. Surely the Chinese also captured Japanese POWs and I'm sure they did truly awful things to them. Especially given that survival rates for American POWs in Chinese prison camps during the Korean War were worse than it was under the Nazis.
So if I assault you and paralyze you for life but in the process you break my pinky we can call it even?
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As someone that has been living in China for the last 10 years, I'd like to voice my opinions. The hate between China and Japan a intense esp for Chinese people and there are a few reason behind it:
1. As most people had known already, its WW2 Japanese occupation of China.
2. Japanese gorvenment's textbook edit, Japanese is not teaching their newer generation of what they've done(China and Korea are on the same side on this matter). I have to side with the Chinese people on this, I mean, why Japan just can't act like Germany, accept your past, teach the newer generation about it and move the fuk on?
3. Japan's successfull became a economy powerhouse compare to China. China has become more and more wealthy but still not even close to what the Japanese has archived. Chinese people envy Japanese thus leading to more hate.
Still, the attitude of Chinese people toward Japanese are on some way very contradict themselves. Chinese hate Japan for what they've done in WW2 but on some level Chinese admire the Japanese for what Japan has archive. That adds the bitterness to all the WW2 violation on China soil.
If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
This kind of riots toward Japan has happen before(like 5-6 years ago). Chinese people are easy to follow a trend and love to follow the mass. I am sure that nothing will come out of this and things will go back to the way they were in a very short time.
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People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians.
I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it.
Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings.
I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him.
In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it.
Sorry for the long post.
Edit:If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly 
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Damn, all the comments in the thread are debating weather their protests are legitimate or not.
I'm way more interested in the present and what this can represent for the future. I'm sure the chinese authorities will manage to keep this under control and not let it get out of hand... that could be nasty.
I don't believe China will give up those islands. And by the looks of it, and i must thank you for a lot of informative posts containing historical facts that i did not know, Japan should do a nice gesture and give up the islands and renew their relations with China.
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On September 16 2012 08:04 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:49 Azarkon wrote:
It's always easier for the victimizer to move on than the victim. That's normal, that's standard. Japan has not moved on from the US nuking Japan - not at the ground level, where you still find Japanese who are extremely anti-American, I don't see why China is supposed to get over Japan invading them and slaughtering their people.
For those bringing up Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. - you think those countries are going to forgive China when / if they become independent? Of course not. You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you? But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year. Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk? You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever? How does that even matter? The fact that the assassin suffered at the hands of others - and then bounced back from it - does not in any way lessen his victim's hatred of him. Imagine for a moment that I killed your friends in cold blood. Then tomorrow I get hit by a car. Does that lessen your hatred of me?
I'm not even going to go future with this stupid analogy. All I have to say no matter what acting mindless and having a mob mentality about old grudges is never going to benefit anyone.
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On September 16 2012 08:06 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:00 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 07:59 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage. oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". Thank you. That's exactly what was bothering me about this thread. Chinese people, according to this thread, need to stop being ridiculous, "just move on", a reason to lose faith in humanity... Whyre those silly Chinese still so mad? Go and read that wiki snippet someone posted from the rape of Nanking and then tell me that latent anger over that is "ridiculous". A riot is never justified, They are in fact stupid, but the feeling behind this are far from being worthy of ridicule. God forbid anything like the Japanese occupation ever happen to the US because our eventual reactions would make these Chinese rioters look like saints. But there's a difference between remembering an atrocity and taking action as a result. The US DOES recall Pearl Harbor day every year. But we don't take the day to celebrate by breaking Japanese-made goods or attacking the embassy. Nobody is denying that the Japanese did terrible things. But they paid for it in blood and destruction and humiliation. How much shame is enough? Again, human nature. The US took revenge for Pearl Harbor. The Chinese never took revenge for anything. That you know about. Surely the Chinese also captured Japanese POWs and I'm sure they did truly awful things to them. Especially given that survival rates for American POWs in Chinese prison camps during the Korean War were worse than it was under the Nazis.
"fun" fact the survival rate of american POW's captured by the nazis was significantly better than vice versa.. not to derail the thread though, as I already pointed out instead of showing the finger to the japanese, people should do some self reflection as pretty much no nation is without a long record of really awful war crimes. Most of these nations are in denial though
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On September 16 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:49 Azarkon wrote:
It's always easier for the victimizer to move on than the victim. That's normal, that's standard. Japan has not moved on from the US nuking Japan - not at the ground level, where you still find Japanese who are extremely anti-American, I don't see why China is supposed to get over Japan invading them and slaughtering their people.
For those bringing up Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. - you think those countries are going to forgive China when / if they become independent? Of course not. You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you? But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year. Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk? You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever? So if 1) I kill your mother 2) I lose an arm and all my money 3) I work hard, get a robot arm and live a good life 4) ??? 5) We can be bros if we meet? 6) Cool
Be careful with that analogy. Even Chinese officials are careful to make the distinction that they're angry with the Japanese government, not the Japanese people.
What you're talking about is closer to a rageful attitude toward the group. Like if a Japanese person killed your mother, you think it's right 20 years later to beat up a Japanese person who might be completely unrelated to the other person or the crime but you're angry at them anyways just because they're Japanese.
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On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:49 Azarkon wrote:
It's always easier for the victimizer to move on than the victim. That's normal, that's standard. Japan has not moved on from the US nuking Japan - not at the ground level, where you still find Japanese who are extremely anti-American, I don't see why China is supposed to get over Japan invading them and slaughtering their people.
For those bringing up Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. - you think those countries are going to forgive China when / if they become independent? Of course not. You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you? But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year. Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk? You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever?
don't get into the stupid and usually always shitty slope of metaphors, they are almost always wrong in portraying things. In this case time and relation, face it people now it is two generations removed not 1 along with the affiliation who and what occurred. It's also double weird as during WWII is pre peoples republic of china, this is two nations that no longer exist.
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On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:
People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians.
I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it.
Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings.
I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him.
In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it.
Sorry for the long post.
Awesome post and the voice of reason!
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On September 16 2012 08:10 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:01 Danzo wrote:On September 16 2012 07:55 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 sharkie wrote:On September 16 2012 07:49 Azarkon wrote:
It's always easier for the victimizer to move on than the victim. That's normal, that's standard. Japan has not moved on from the US nuking Japan - not at the ground level, where you still find Japanese who are extremely anti-American, I don't see why China is supposed to get over Japan invading them and slaughtering their people.
For those bringing up Tibet, Xinjiang, etc. - you think those countries are going to forgive China when / if they become independent? Of course not. You havent seen Japanese celebrate 9/11 did you? But I have seen several Americans celebrating the Earthquake last year. Oh wait, those were like 0.5% (aka the minority). So should we judge countries by their minorities or MOVE ON? So if I send and assassin to kill your mother, 20 years later if we meet on the street we go clubbing together kk? You mean 20 years later after that assassin pretty much lost everything by having two cities being blown to hell and collapse the entire morality of an entire nation only to dig itself back up and prosper strong than ever? don't get into the stupid and usually always shitty slope of metaphors, they are almost always wrong in portraying things. In this case time and relation, face it people now it is two generations removed not 1 along with the affiliation who and what occurred. It's also double weird as during WWII is pre peoples republic of china, this is two nations that no longer exist.
2 generations is still living memory... "countries" do not exist but memories do
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On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage. oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid".
On September 16 2012 08:03 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:59 coverpunch wrote:On September 16 2012 07:52 Zahir wrote:On September 16 2012 07:20 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 07:17 CeriseCherries wrote:On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:As someone who's studied Japanese history, both by itself and related to other topics, I can say that most of what people are saying in this thread as "what happened" is absolutely garbage. oh shit. japan never invaded and occupied china. the cake is a lie. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Yes, the Japanese inflicted war crimes against the Chinese, but there are so many important circumstances left out that it makes no sense. No, it was not a holocaust denied. The denial of those crimes are not widespread but instead belong to a vocal minority. The problem in Japan is that the topic itself, while well understood, is taboo and thus out of the public consciousness.
Ah, how could i forget the important context that goes into raping children as young as 7 and as old as 70. Silly actually. Taboo + out of public consciousness = denial. No one wants to be sorry about it and no one is regretful. Its like saying I shot your grandpa (which literally happened to many chinese) but I never actually even apologized and the only atonement for the crime is that the big guy i also socked in the face beat me up. instead 70 years later i ignore the fact that your grandpa is dead instead of apologizing. On September 16 2012 07:09 magicmUnky wrote:
Regardless, not surprised to see mindless violence from the Chinese... destroying Chinese owned but Japanese made cars... maybe they should first get over their schizophrenic relationship with "the west" before they decide to rip themselves apart. this sounds kind of racist, im not going to lie. thats the equivalent of saying im not surprised that blacks are violent... you realize that even canada riots... This is something I can't figure out either. People are not surprised that in Canada they smashed their own shops because of a hockey game... but when Chinese smash some of their own stuff because of a decades long hatred, it's "ridiculous" and "stupid". Thank you. That's exactly what was bothering me about this thread. Chinese people, according to this thread, need to stop being ridiculous, "just move on", a reason to lose faith in humanity... Whyre those silly Chinese still so mad? Go and read that wiki snippet someone posted from the rape of Nanking and then tell me that latent anger over that is "ridiculous". A riot is never justified, They are in fact stupid, but the feeling behind this are far from being worthy of ridicule. God forbid anything like the Japanese occupation ever happen to the US because our eventual reactions would make these Chinese rioters look like saints. But there's a difference between remembering an atrocity and taking action as a result. The US DOES recall Pearl Harbor day every year. But we don't take the day to celebrate by breaking Japanese-made goods or attacking the embassy. Nobody is denying that the Japanese did terrible things. But they paid for it in blood and destruction and humiliation. How much shame is enough? Again, what is so crazy about some hooligans getting mad over a massacre and smashing some shops that it's considered ridiculous when in the west hooligans smash shops over much smaller issues (like a hockey game... lol).
You're saying it like everyone accepted it and the vandals (who had to wear masks and were obviously there to vandalize instead of watching a hockey game) got off with no punishment, and that everyone was fine with it. Last I checked there were videos of citizens starting fights with the vandals, protecting property, and after all the BS they helped clean things up and repair places that were destroyed.
Stop using this analogy it's awful.
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It always makes me feel bad when the Asian countries clash. Both sides (including Korea) have done wrong and I think they should really just move on.
An Asian Union would be a massive economic powerhouse and would surely benefit the world. Let's hope that in the near future something like that can happen.
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EPT
