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On September 16 2012 09:48 Hikari wrote:
Stupidity from patriotism knows no bounds.
I suspect the Chinese government may have an indirect hand over the organization of such protests. If say, the protest is over something done by the communist party, those who attempted to rally a crowd would have been arrested for disturbing the peace before anything big can happen.
I doubt that many countries in the world would be more than happy to admit to their own wrong doings in their textbooks. Just as Japan would not teach their students "our emperor fucked up and ordered an invasion of China and massacred a whole city of people", the Chinese government would not allow their students to learn about the dark periods of China's cultural revolution (which still goes on to a certain degree today).
All in the name of patriotism.
As silly as the protest may seem, there are still countless numbers of Americans who would openly criticize Japan for "Pearl Harbor" and would enjoy the sight of seeing misfortunes fall upon other countries.
On the other hand, the lack of patriotism opens the way for exploitation and abuse by peoples who are patriotic. Patriotism and nationalism did not develop in a vacuum. They developed because in the competition for resources, tribes became the standard unit of human organization, and those who did not follow suit were out competed.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 09:50 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:50 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:
[quote]
This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. Oops, sorry, it was long before the Tokugawa shogunate, my bad. It was while China was under the Yuan dynasty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan Mongol = Chinese? That seems akin to saying France invaded the USSR in WWII.
I got my history mixed up. =) But Japan was a vassal state of China way before that! Though that does not really matter at all.
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On September 16 2012 09:50 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit:[quote] I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly  This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. Oops, sorry, it was long before the Tokugawa shogunate, my bad. It was while China was under the Yuan dynasty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan
Don't confuse the Mongols with China please.
The Mongols committed atrocious genocide against the Chinese and labelled them as the lowest class citizens, basically slaves.
Although the know-how of the Chinese siege engineers and ship builders were definitely partly responsible for the Mongol conquests, you can't say that they are one and the same at all. That's like saying that India invaded Germany because there were Indian colonial soldiers on the British side.
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On September 16 2012 09:50 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:50 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:
[quote]
This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. Oops, sorry, it was long before the Tokugawa shogunate, my bad. It was while China was under the Yuan dynasty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan Mongol = Chinese? That seems akin to saying France invaded the USSR in WWII.
Mongolians invaded China and took over during the Yuan dynasty. Qing is also has their roots in Mongolia.
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On September 16 2012 09:56 Hikari wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:50 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:50 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:
[quote]
That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle.
The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. Oops, sorry, it was long before the Tokugawa shogunate, my bad. It was while China was under the Yuan dynasty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan Mongol = Chinese? That seems akin to saying France invaded the USSR in WWII. Mongolians invaded China and took over during the Yuan dynasty. Qing is also has their roots in Mongolia.
The Mongols also invaded Turkey. Would that make it fair to say that Turkey attacked Japan?
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If only Japan just acknowledges the truths and events of the past like the Germans. It really isnt asking much in my opinion.
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On September 16 2012 09:57 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:56 Hikari wrote:On September 16 2012 09:50 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:50 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:
[quote]
This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. Oops, sorry, it was long before the Tokugawa shogunate, my bad. It was while China was under the Yuan dynasty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan Mongol = Chinese? That seems akin to saying France invaded the USSR in WWII. Mongolians invaded China and took over during the Yuan dynasty. Qing is also has their roots in Mongolia. The Mongols also invaded Turkey. Would that make it fair to say that Turkey attacked Japan?
Well to be fair, the Mongols didn't set their capital in Turkey. 
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 09:56 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:50 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:
[quote]
This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. Oops, sorry, it was long before the Tokugawa shogunate, my bad. It was while China was under the Yuan dynasty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_Japan Don't confuse the Mongols with China please. The Mongols committed atrocious genocide against the Chinese and labelled them as the lowest class citizens, basically slaves. Although the know-how of the Chinese siege engineers and ship builders were definitely partly responsible for the Mongol conquests, you can't say that they are one and the same at all. That's like saying that India invaded Germany because there were Indian colonial soldiers on the British side.
Ignore what I said. History got jumbled up in my brain somehow. :d
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The textbooks issue as well as the visits to the shrine is still there though.
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On September 16 2012 09:51 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:48 Hikari wrote:
Stupidity from patriotism knows no bounds.
I suspect the Chinese government may have an indirect hand over the organization of such protests. If say, the protest is over something done by the communist party, those who attempted to rally a crowd would have been arrested for disturbing the peace before anything big can happen.
I doubt that many countries in the world would be more than happy to admit to their own wrong doings in their textbooks. Just as Japan would not teach their students "our emperor fucked up and ordered an invasion of China and massacred a whole city of people", the Chinese government would not allow their students to learn about the dark periods of China's cultural revolution (which still goes on to a certain degree today).
All in the name of patriotism.
As silly as the protest may seem, there are still countless numbers of Americans who would openly criticize Japan for "Pearl Harbor" and would enjoy the sight of seeing misfortunes fall upon other countries. On the other hand, the lack of patriotism opens the way for exploitation and abuse by peoples who are patriotic. Patriotism and nationalism did not develop in a vacuum. They developed because in the competition for resources, tribes became the standard unit of human organization, and those who did not follow suit were out competed.
Nationalism in the modern sense, AFAIK, didn't really develop until around the Napoleonic era, right? Before that it was allegiance to your king, before that your emperor, before that your chief. I guess you can call those last ones patriotism, depending on your definition of patriot, but I think loyalty is a much better word and concept here. Calling tribes patriotic seems frivolous to me, as they likely include your family and the very few people you've met for your entire life. Nations do this too, but not necessarily like in a tribal/clan system.
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I think this is somewhat relevant (NSFW - language) (South Park) (on a lighter side of things)
+ Show Spoiler +
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This sentiment is the exact same thing Americans went through (might be still going through) when 9/11 happened. Muslims and Islamic followers got so much heat from the public, although maybe not to the extreme China is going through right now.
I'm still curious as to what sparked the recent surges of anti-Japanese protests. Some of them seem pretty violent and rowdy...
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On September 16 2012 09:49 reDicE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:43 ymir233 wrote:
A poor and greedy move for Japan to try and take the Diaoyu Islands for themselves before Dokdo. Now they're gonna get it lololols. Japan isn't trying to "take" the islands. It's already theirs. Japan annexed the islands after the First Sino-Japanese war in 1895. They were taken by the US after WWII. The US gave them back the islands in the San Francisco peace treaty in 1971. China never even cared about the islands until it was found that there were oil and natural gas reserves near the island.
There was a history of both nations claiming the island before the annexation, and China recorded its existence before Japan did. It's not like in 1895 the Japanese were suddenly like "oh shit our ships just bumped into an unknown island, better take it now"....
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On September 16 2012 09:51 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:48 Hikari wrote:
Stupidity from patriotism knows no bounds.
I suspect the Chinese government may have an indirect hand over the organization of such protests. If say, the protest is over something done by the communist party, those who attempted to rally a crowd would have been arrested for disturbing the peace before anything big can happen.
I doubt that many countries in the world would be more than happy to admit to their own wrong doings in their textbooks. Just as Japan would not teach their students "our emperor fucked up and ordered an invasion of China and massacred a whole city of people", the Chinese government would not allow their students to learn about the dark periods of China's cultural revolution (which still goes on to a certain degree today).
All in the name of patriotism.
As silly as the protest may seem, there are still countless numbers of Americans who would openly criticize Japan for "Pearl Harbor" and would enjoy the sight of seeing misfortunes fall upon other countries. On the other hand, the lack of patriotism opens the way for exploitation and abuse by peoples who are patriotic. Patriotism and nationalism did not develop in a vacuum. They developed because in the competition for resources, tribes became the standard unit of human organization, and those who did not follow suit were out competed.
Not being a patriot is not the same as being a pushover.
And while it's true that tribal life was an exclusive and hostile environment, nationalism is an about 300-years young concept, built around the idea that people of similar cultural background would do better to cooperate.
And also of course to obey thier aristocratic overlords =)
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On September 16 2012 10:08 imBLIND wrote:
This sentiment is the exact same thing Americans went through (might be still going through) when 9/11 happened. Muslims and Islamic followers got so much heat from the public, although maybe not to the extreme China is going through right now.
I'm still curious as to what sparked the recent surges of anti-Japanese protests. Some of them seem pretty violent and rowdy...
Read the OP, it says that Japanese is trying to take over an Island that the Chinese argued that it belongs to them.
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A good amount of Chinese people also do not really care about the Chinese<>Japanese history. For a long time Japanese goods are valued for their quality. Counterfeiters in China often disguise their products using Japanese names such as "Sany", "Somy", "Hitachl", "Panosonic", etc. I remember staying over at a high quality hotel in China around 12 years ago where every single piece of electronic would be Japanese made.
One can easily stir up a riot as long as the police turn half a blind eye.
There will always be trouble markers at work in the background that pass on their torch of hatred to the next generation.
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Yeah I could see some of those signs in Shanghai, although they're not omnipresent.
Chinese are not stupid, but by education, they have a lack of critical thinking and tend to jump on the bandwagon super easily.
I'm dying to know what's the government's stance on this boycott. It's really bad for the economy and relations with Japan, but at the same time, it's rare that the government allows huge protests like those.
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Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion.
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EPT
