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On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened.
Yes, they should apologise fully. The Australian government apologised to the aboriginals. We're taught about the atrocities our ancestors committed against them (using a head as a soccer ball, rape, massacres etc) in our schools. The japanese on the other hand downplay (the numbers put up by Japanese 'historians' are just laughable) or straight up deny the atrocities committed. Noone holds the current generation responsible but they should at least accept that this shit happened and maybe even show some empathy. It's the equivalent of Germany going, 'hey, the holocaust wasn't so bad and didn't really happen the way everyone says it did'.
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United States42772 Posts
On September 16 2012 07:54 Dagobert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. My, my, the pot's calling the kettle black, isn't he? Surely the term 'British Empire' doesn't ring any bells?
If you're attempting to draw comparisons with the empire which fought a hopeless war against the tyranny of Germany and Japan and bartered away it's very existence in order to preserve liberty around the world then feel free. There are a lot of shameful moments in British imperial history and we know about them and don't tend to glorify them. However our conduct in the second world war was not one of them, it would have been easy to remain isolationist like the United States or collaborate like your own nation did. The British did not and the brave young men from Australia and New Zealand who fought the Japanese for the liberty of countries they had no obligation to and were worked to death in appalling conditions by Japanese soldiers who denied them basic POW rights.
There are many things you can hold against the British. Our imperial conduct compared to that of Japan is not one of them. Never have two nations created empires for more entirely opposite purposes, maintained them in such different ways, treated the native populations so differently and lost them in such contrasting fashions. Your comparison fails on every level, the British empire can only be compared to the Japanese empire in so much as to show exactly how disgusting the Japanese conduct was.
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Man, if only Japanese people weren't so apathetic about politics. Then maybe they wouldn't have a government that enjoys constantly unloading both barrels in their feet.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:03 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened. Yes, they should apologise fully. The Australian government apologised to the aboriginals. We're taught about the atrocities our ancestors committed against them (using a head as a soccer ball, rape, massacres etc) in our schools. The japanese on the other hand downplay (the numbers put up by Japanese 'historians' are just laughable) or straight up deny the atrocities committed. Noone holds the current generation responsible but they should at least accept that this shit happened and maybe even show some empathy. It's the equivalent of Germany going, 'hey, the holocaust wasn't so bad and didn't really happen the way everyone says it did'.
Between this thread and the anti-American Islamic protests thread, one can see the hypocrisy shine as bright as day. I can understand why the Japanese government has not been as apologetic as they should be (though they have issued numerous apologies). You don't see America apologizing for all of its atrocities in the Middle East. Hell, this is a comment from our Vice President after we shot down a commercial Iranian airplane over Iranian territorial waters:
In August 1988 Newsweek quoted Vice President George H. W. Bush as saying "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever. I don't care what the facts are."
^And that sure as hell isn't taught in any history classes.
Japanese atrocities, however, were part of World War 2, a full-scale war. What more do you want from them when they've already apologized? For the record, Japanese atrocities ARE taught in the vast majority of history classes, though they have downplayed the role of 'Comfort Women' recently. The textbook that you are referring to, that downplays Japanese atrocities, was only used in 0.039% of Japanese middle schools (eight private schools and eight public schools), so you are beyond exaggerating (though I believe these schools are in the wrong).
The Japanese government has always been the victim of such hypocrisy. While I do not agree with how they antagonize China and South Korea, the West should also try practicing what they preach.
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On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion.
That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though).
Also China has a long way to go.
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On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go.
It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.'
I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice.
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On September 16 2012 10:44 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:38 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly  You accuse people of simplifying, and then describe the Nanking Massacre as a 'massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians?' Comeon. It involved 'massacre contests' and the rape of infants, all sanctioned by the high command. The analogy between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is appealing to historians and the public beacause it's convincing. Both regimes had a strong belief in their racial superiority, and it was shown by the terrible things they did to the world. In fact, looking at the evidence, I would much rather be invaded by Nazis than the Japanese. Just 56 Chinese prisoners of war were released after the war - everyone else was killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimesFor anyone who hasn't read up on it before, that wikipedia page should be pause for reflection. But beyond that, any history of the time is profoundly disturbing. I still can't shake the story of the Japanese using Chinese prisoners and rats to experiment with bubonic plague, and once the trials had finished letting the rats out into the Chinese city, killing thousands upon thousands. The Japanese culture at this time was geniunely sickening, and the lack of a deep apology, or a cultural background of repentance forces me to side with China. Look at Germany - they have repentant monuments to the holocaust, a rich literary field of repentence, and nationwide soul searching. Japan have...some insincere apologies, and an attempt to rewrite history. A long way to go. To step away from history to more personal experiences, I've talked to a lot of Chinese about this debate, and they are fairly pragmatic. Everyone I've spoken to says that if Japan were to deeply apologise, and return the islands, they would be prepared to let bygones be bygones - after all, it is in the past. But by refusing to accept their crimes, they are keeping the wounds open, and well salted. Nazi Germany was basically millions of normal people fighting for their country plus the SS committing war crimes. Imperial Japan was millions of people thinking they are a superior race and a large % of them committing war crimes. The German army was very professional, in 1 week of American occupation the Americans raped more German women than the amount of French women their army raped in the whole 4 years.
That is only partially true. Wehrmacht was responsible for several war crimes. If you are interested in the topic you should read about the "commissioner order" which ordered soldiers of the Wehrmacht to shoot soviet political commisioners on sight (also after surrendering) and the "Kriegsgerichtsbarkeitserlass" (sorry I cannot find the english word), which tried to define the treatment of partisans (partisans, spouses of partisans, the village they live in).
The commissioner order was usually followed (warcrime), Kriegsgerichtbarkeitserlass was only partially followed, as many higher ranks on the actual front refused to burn down the villages of partisans, which angered Adolf and the leading heads of the OKW. In some units both orders were executed to the full extent, which clearly included various war crimes.
EDIT: all in all, Regarding the whole mess the war created, conduct of the Wehrmacht was pretty professional. There were warcrimes, but not on such a large scale like the ones committed from the SS or even other powers fighting in the war. Many scientists say that around 10% of Wehrmacht soldiers took an active part in warcrimes, which is somehow worth mentioning because crimes were ordered from the highest officials and not following orders could have severe consequences for the individual soldier.
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On September 16 2012 11:06 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:03 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened. Yes, they should apologise fully. The Australian government apologised to the aboriginals. We're taught about the atrocities our ancestors committed against them (using a head as a soccer ball, rape, massacres etc) in our schools. The japanese on the other hand downplay (the numbers put up by Japanese 'historians' are just laughable) or straight up deny the atrocities committed. Noone holds the current generation responsible but they should at least accept that this shit happened and maybe even show some empathy. It's the equivalent of Germany going, 'hey, the holocaust wasn't so bad and didn't really happen the way everyone says it did'. Between this thread and the anti-American Islamic protests thread, one can see the hypocrisy shine as bright as day. I can understand why the Japanese government has not been as apologetic as they should be (though they have issued numerous apologies). You don't see America apologizing for all of its atrocities in the Middle East. Hell, this is a comment from our Vice President after we shot down a commercial Iranian airplane over Iranian territorial waters: Show nested quote +In August 1988 Newsweek quoted Vice President George H. W. Bush as saying "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever. I don't care what the facts are." ^And that sure as hell isn't taught in any history classes. Japanese atrocities, however, were part of World War 2, a full-scale war. What more do you want from them when they've already apologized? For the record, Japanese atrocities ARE taught in the vast majority of history classes, though they have downplayed the role of 'Comfort Women' recently. The textbook that you are referring to, that downplays Japanese atrocities, was only used in 0.039% of Japanese middle schools (eight private schools and eight public schools), so you are beyond exaggerating (though I believe these schools are in the wrong). The Japanese government has always been the victim of such hypocrisy. While I do not agree with how they antagonize China and South Korea, the West should also try practicing what they preach.
Demands for an apology and compensation have been a recurring topic in Korean, Taiwanese, and Chinese politics. Many people, including high-ranking officials and scholars, criticized that those apologies, which are usually made followed by denial of war crimes by the Japanese lawmakers, as inadequate and insincere.
In August 15, 1995, Japanese prime minister Tomiichi Murayama made the first clear and official apology upon the war crimes, but Iris Chang, author of The Rape of Nanking, regarded Murayama's refusal to offer the written apology as equivocal and insincere.
In October 2006, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made another apology but on the same day it was followed by a group of 80 Japanese lawmakers' visit to the Yasukuni Shrine which enshrined more than 1000 convicted war criminals.[3] Two years after the apology, Shinzo Abe also denied that the military had forced comfort women into sexual slavery during World War II .[4]
In 2010, one comfort woman from Taiwan stated, "It’s unacceptable that the Japanese government still refuses to apologize for what it did." President Ma Ying-jeou also declared, "It is the responsibility of the Japanese government to admit its mistakes and apologize... The battle is not over yet and it is regretful that the Japanese government still refuses to face its mistakes."[5]
As of 2010, 24% of South Koreans still feel that Japan has never apologized for its colonial rule, while another 58% believe Japan has not apologized sufficiently
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
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I think the Chinese Government is using this to engender public support for their territorial dispute with Japan. That's politics.
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United States42772 Posts
On September 16 2012 08:40 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. I really dont think this is reasonable. Japan, on numerous occasions has acknowledged the crimes committed during the second world war. Furthermore, you talk about swallowing pride and accepting a past? How about Mao's mass starvation/killings of 50 million Chinese people. Or its brutal invasion and suppression of Tibet. Or how about muslim suppression in its north west. Lets not forget that the SAME PARTY who committed those crimes is still in power. Mao was one of the most brutal leaders in the history of mankind and yet he is still celebrated as a hero by the current party. Maybe China should take a long hard look at its own past before expecting others to do the same. Like you, I don't expect current Chinese people to feel responsible for past events, but suggesting Japan hasnt acknowledged what happened in world war 2 is completely false. Even if it were true, dont you think its pretty hypocritical to not hold the chinese to the same standards of "acknowledgement"? I'm not saying there isnt going to be some bitterness between the two over past events, and to an extent there should be. But making some sort of argument about how the blackness of Japans past deserves resentment but China's does not is pretty much ridiculous.
Since when was the "they're doing it too" argument valid outside of the playground. That one is refuted when your mother teaches you about peer pressure at an early age. Also the "totalitarian China does it too" is not a valid excuse unless your aspirations as a nation are to be as bad as China. At no point did I present China as a model state, nor was my criticism of Japan in any way involving them being worse than China, I have no idea what point you think you're making but I can assure you that you've missed the mark by some distance.
As for acknowledging the past, they rewrite text books, honour war criminals, attempt to revise factual records of their crimes and still persist in the same frankly disturbing nationalism that caused the conflict in the first place. You don't get to be nationalistic for a few generations with a history like theirs.
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On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go.
The willingness/desire to go study in Japan in the first place plus just basic politeness means you're unlikely to encounter hate from students over there.
On September 16 2012 11:17 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:14 TriO wrote:On September 16 2012 11:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 11:03 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened. Yes, they should apologise fully. The Australian government apologised to the aboriginals. We're taught about the atrocities our ancestors committed against them (using a head as a soccer ball, rape, massacres etc) in our schools. The japanese on the other hand downplay (the numbers put up by Japanese 'historians' are just laughable) or straight up deny the atrocities committed. Noone holds the current generation responsible but they should at least accept that this shit happened and maybe even show some empathy. It's the equivalent of Germany going, 'hey, the holocaust wasn't so bad and didn't really happen the way everyone says it did'. Between this thread and the anti-American Islamic protests thread, one can see the hypocrisy shine as bright as day. I can understand why the Japanese government has not been as apologetic as they should be (though they have issued numerous apologies). You don't see America apologizing for all of its atrocities in the Middle East. Hell, this is a comment from our Vice President after we shot down a commercial Iranian airplane over Iranian territorial waters: In August 1988 Newsweek quoted Vice President George H. W. Bush as saying "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever. I don't care what the facts are." ^And that sure as hell isn't taught in any history classes. Japanese atrocities, however, were part of World War 2, a full-scale war. What more do you want from them when they've already apologized? For the record, Japanese atrocities ARE taught in the vast majority of history classes, though they have downplayed the role of 'Comfort Women' recently. The textbook that you are referring to, that downplays Japanese atrocities, was only used in 0.039% of Japanese middle schools (eight private schools and eight public schools), so you are beyond exaggerating (though I believe these schools are in the wrong). The Japanese government has always been the victim of such hypocrisy. While I do not agree with how they antagonize China and South Korea, the West should also try practicing what they preach. Demands for an apology and compensation have been a recurring topic in Korean, Taiwanese, and Chinese politics. Many people, including high-ranking officials and scholars, criticized that those apologies, which are usually made followed by denial of war crimes by the Japanese lawmakers, as inadequate and insincere.In August 15, 1995, Japanese prime minister Tomiichi Murayama made the first clear and official apology upon the war crimes, but Iris Chang, author of The Rape of Nanking, regarded Murayama's refusal to offer the written apology as equivocal and insincere. In October 2006, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made another apology but on the same day it was followed by a group of 80 Japanese lawmakers' visit to the Yasukuni Shrine which enshrined more than 1000 convicted war criminals.[3] Two years after the apology, Shinzo Abe also denied that the military had forced comfort women into sexual slavery during World War II .[4]In 2010, one comfort woman from Taiwan stated, "It’s unacceptable that the Japanese government still refuses to apologize for what it did." President Ma Ying-jeou also declared, "It is the responsibility of the Japanese government to admit its mistakes and apologize... The battle is not over yet and it is regretful that the Japanese government still refuses to face its mistakes."[5]As of 2010, 24% of South Koreans still feel that Japan has never apologized for its colonial rule, while another 58% believe Japan has not apologized sufficiently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan I don't know why you posted that. I already said they were downplaying the 'Comfort Women' issue.
You can't see the difference between denying and downplaying?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 16 2012 11:14 TriO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 11:03 Scarecrow wrote:On September 16 2012 10:43 killa_robot wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. So, you want them to apologize for something their ancesters did, of which they had no control over. Not only that, but you also want them to teach this in schools, so that way future generations of Japanese can grow up with a hatred of their military and government for the things they did in the past? All of this, so the Chinese and Koreans can....what? Feel better knowing those that did heinous crimes, feel bad for it? I get it's a sensetive issue, but apologizing at this point is meanlingless. Do you honestly think that if the Japanese issued a formal apology, and taught this in schools, that the chinese or koreans would care? Nope, because everything the Japanese did to them, still happened. Yes, they should apologise fully. The Australian government apologised to the aboriginals. We're taught about the atrocities our ancestors committed against them (using a head as a soccer ball, rape, massacres etc) in our schools. The japanese on the other hand downplay (the numbers put up by Japanese 'historians' are just laughable) or straight up deny the atrocities committed. Noone holds the current generation responsible but they should at least accept that this shit happened and maybe even show some empathy. It's the equivalent of Germany going, 'hey, the holocaust wasn't so bad and didn't really happen the way everyone says it did'. Between this thread and the anti-American Islamic protests thread, one can see the hypocrisy shine as bright as day. I can understand why the Japanese government has not been as apologetic as they should be (though they have issued numerous apologies). You don't see America apologizing for all of its atrocities in the Middle East. Hell, this is a comment from our Vice President after we shot down a commercial Iranian airplane over Iranian territorial waters: In August 1988 Newsweek quoted Vice President George H. W. Bush as saying "I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever. I don't care what the facts are." ^And that sure as hell isn't taught in any history classes. Japanese atrocities, however, were part of World War 2, a full-scale war. What more do you want from them when they've already apologized? For the record, Japanese atrocities ARE taught in the vast majority of history classes, though they have downplayed the role of 'Comfort Women' recently. The textbook that you are referring to, that downplays Japanese atrocities, was only used in 0.039% of Japanese middle schools (eight private schools and eight public schools), so you are beyond exaggerating (though I believe these schools are in the wrong). The Japanese government has always been the victim of such hypocrisy. While I do not agree with how they antagonize China and South Korea, the West should also try practicing what they preach. Demands for an apology and compensation have been a recurring topic in Korean, Taiwanese, and Chinese politics. Many people, including high-ranking officials and scholars, criticized that those apologies, which are usually made followed by denial of war crimes by the Japanese lawmakers, as inadequate and insincere.In August 15, 1995, Japanese prime minister Tomiichi Murayama made the first clear and official apology upon the war crimes, but Iris Chang, author of The Rape of Nanking, regarded Murayama's refusal to offer the written apology as equivocal and insincere. In October 2006, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe made another apology but on the same day it was followed by a group of 80 Japanese lawmakers' visit to the Yasukuni Shrine which enshrined more than 1000 convicted war criminals.[3] Two years after the apology, Shinzo Abe also denied that the military had forced comfort women into sexual slavery during World War II .[4]In 2010, one comfort woman from Taiwan stated, "It’s unacceptable that the Japanese government still refuses to apologize for what it did." President Ma Ying-jeou also declared, "It is the responsibility of the Japanese government to admit its mistakes and apologize... The battle is not over yet and it is regretful that the Japanese government still refuses to face its mistakes."[5]As of 2010, 24% of South Koreans still feel that Japan has never apologized for its colonial rule, while another 58% believe Japan has not apologized sufficiently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan
I don't know why you posted that. I already said they were downplaying the 'Comfort Women' issue.
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On September 16 2012 11:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:54 Dagobert wrote:On September 16 2012 06:21 KwarK wrote:To be honest learning about Japanese conduct in world war two and the lack of a national self examining in the wake of the second world war kind of justifies anti-Japanese feelings. Imperial Japan was a diseased nation, akin to 1930s Germany, the difference is that Germany has swallowed its pride and learned to accept and learn from its past whereas Japan preferred self pity and denial. I don't require the Japanese descendants of the war criminals to atone any more than I would ask the German descendants of Nazis to atone. However accepting their shameful history and showing an awareness of the suffering their ancestors caused would help ease the tensions. Only a month ago two Japanese ministers visited a shrine honouring fourteen Class A war criminals. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-15/shrine/4200304Violent protests are always wrong but anti-Japanese sentiment is not without its justifications. My, my, the pot's calling the kettle black, isn't he? Surely the term 'British Empire' doesn't ring any bells? If you're attempting to draw comparisons with the empire which fought a hopeless war against the tyranny of Germany and Japan and bartered away it's very existence in order to preserve liberty around the world then feel free. There are a lot of shameful moments in British imperial history and we know about them and don't tend to glorify them. However our conduct in the second world war was not one of them, it would have been easy to remain isolationist like the United States or collaborate like your own nation did. The British did not and the brave young men from Australia and New Zealand who fought the Japanese for the liberty of countries they had no obligation to and were worked to death in appalling conditions by Japanese soldiers who denied them basic POW rights. There are many things you can hold against the British. Our imperial conduct compared to that of Japan is not one of them. Never have two nations created empires for more entirely opposite purposes, maintained them in such different ways, treated the native populations so differently and lost them in such contrasting fashions. Your comparison fails on every level, the British empire can only be compared to the Japanese empire in so much as to show exactly how disgusting the Japanese conduct was.
What a great post. Honestly. I have to agree with KwarK here wholeheartedly.
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On September 16 2012 10:52 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit:[quote] I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. I find it hard to believe China was invading anyone during that time period while it was getting raped by foreign powers. Actually it happened even way before that, back in the 13th century (Kamakura shogunate). China was then under the (Mongolian) Yuan dynasty which tried to take control of the Japanese islands. Twice they attempted and twice they failed, but it was mostly due to the 'bad weather' that destroyed their fleets (and this is where the term 'kamikaze' was born or 'wind that the gods sent to protect Japan'). (Sorry for being a little offtopic.)
This was already discussed.
Kublai Khan was not Chinese, and his intentions don't reflect that of the Chinese.
I know there's a bit of brainwashing in the Chinese education system that somehow likes to claim the Yuan dynasty's Mongol conquests as "Chinese", but look at the fact that despite having the world's largest ships and a huge fleet until the 16th century, China never invaded Japan, neither did any real Chinese dynasty, not Tang, not Song and not even the Ming who was actually attacked by Japan.
Only when they were slaves to Mongols did they went to war against Japan.
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On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice.
I understand why they think (or in some cases not think  ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese.
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On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese.
The hatred isn't blind. It's informed by what happened and what is happening. Haven't you been reading this thread?
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On September 16 2012 11:22 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:52 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 09:46 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:40 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:38 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 09:27 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:14 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 09:06 Souma wrote:On September 16 2012 09:03 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 08:55 Souma wrote:
[quote]
This is a great post. Things would be much better, however, if the Japanese government did not keep trying to revise their history books or visit Yasukuni Shrine on the eve of the end of WW2. It is not the fault of the Japanese populace in general as the Japanese citizens and historians by and far are against such revisions and visits, but the government by any standard is inept. Japan is in dire need of a government overhaul. That's an overstatement. The Japanese government won't repent because of the people, not just in spite of them. Very few people in Japan feel that they ought to try for Chinese / Korean forgiveness, and so the government reflects the will of the people and does not try for it. The average Japanese doesn't feel remorse for what Imperial Japan did, and his government doesn't show remorse because to do so violates his will / pride. It's a self reinforcing cycle of nationalist indifference, which in turn causes hatred and resentment on the other side, leading to another self reinforcing cycle. The bottom line is - time alone is going to have to suffice for healing this 'wound.' This is total bullshit. Japanese public opinion is above 50% in opposition to Yasukuni Shrine visits by government officials. Likewise, Japanese citizens and historians have time and time again protested against the textbook revisions (and have won). While they do not believe they should give away the Senkaku Islands, they are not the complicit nationalists you think them to be. It costs nothing for the average Japanese to bitch about their government antagonizing China and Korea intentionally, which is what your examples come down to. But whether they oppose the Yasukuni Shrine visits, and whether they protest the textbook revisions, the average Japanese does not feel remorse for what Japan did in WW 2. I've talked to enough Japanese to know that there is no genuine feeling of guilt over what happened, and so no burning desire to redress them. The fact that they won't even support giving away an island they annexed in 1895 from China shows that deep down, national interests trump everything else. This is why this mutual hatred is going to continue. Excuse me, the islands are a whole different matter. I don't know how you can bring them up in a discussion about "remorse." Just because the Japanese committed atrocities in WW2 does not mean they have to relinquish their entire national agenda to appease Chinese interests. If you want to talk about genuine remorse, I don't think you can expect anyone to feel genuine remorse for events that occurred over half a century ago (especially from those who were born generations after). You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in America feeling genuine remorse for the carpet bombing of Tokyo. Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice? Anyway, the point of the matter is, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to find people in Japan that did not agree with the actions of their government (whether it be for domestic or foreign policy), and the Japanese citizens are by no means trying to run from their past and insult the Chinese. The Senkaku Islands, however, are an entirely different story, and can not be simplified by merely stating, 'Japanese don't feel remorse.' By the way, you should be amazed that the Japanese even protest against textbook revisions, considering how jaded they are with their government. Most Japanese people do not believe in protesting, and the main reason is because they do not believe it would have any effect. Considering what has happened in the past, they are not off target in believing so. I was gonna say something about how since taking the island was part of their invasion giving it back would be a show of genuine remorse but then I read "Should the Chinese feel genuine remorse for trying to invade Japan twice?", where are you getting your history from? It happened during the Tokugawa shogunate. It was a long, long time ago. Can you link anything for me pls. I find it hard to believe China was invading anyone during that time period while it was getting raped by foreign powers. Actually it happened even way before that, back in the 13th century (Kamakura shogunate). China was then under the (Mongolian) Yuan dynasty which tried to take control of the Japanese islands. Twice they attempted and twice they failed, but it was mostly due to the 'bad weather' that destroyed their fleets (and this is where the term 'kamikaze' was born or 'wind that the gods sent to protect Japan'). (Sorry for being a little offtopic.) This was already discussed. Kublai Khan was not Chinese, and his intentions don't reflect that of the Chinese. I know there's a bit of brainwashing in the Chinese education system that somehow likes to claim the Yuan dynasty's Mongol conquests as "Chinese", but look at the fact that despite having the world's largest ships and a huge fleet until the 16th century, China never invaded Japan, neither did any real Chinese dynasty, not Tang, not Song and not even the Ming who was actually attacked by Japan. Only when they were slaves to Mongols did they went to war against Japan.
Sorry I just forgot to refresh the page and didn't see the replies to this.
Of course you may argue that Yuan wasn't Chinese (and I stated that it was a Mongolian - although later sinicized - dynasty) but then you need to specify what do you consider Chinese. Were Qing Chinese?
Ming wasn't attacked by Japan but Toyotomi Hideyoshi (the de facto military ruler of Japan at the end of 16th century) of course had such plans (or rather delusions of grandeur near the end of his life). If it wasn't for the failure of Korean campaign (in which Chinese armies took part) China would be the next 'logical' step.
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On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese.
It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground.
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On September 16 2012 11:32 Tal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:25 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 11:08 Azarkon wrote:On September 16 2012 11:07 revoN wrote:On September 16 2012 10:16 Scarecrow wrote:
Kwark is 100% on the money. Violent protests are the wrong way to go about it but Japan's horrendous war crimes in WW2 (just google 'rape of nanking') are a really sensitive issue in this part of the world. Japan's refusal to accept that this sort of thing even happened (unapologetic plus it's not taught in history classes) engenders a lot of hate in both China and Korea. Literally every single korean I've talked to/taught hates the Japanese with a passion. That would explain why there are hordes of Koreans (and Chinese too) studying in Japan... every Korean (and Chinese) I met so far actually liked Japan. But people that go to study abroad are usually more open-minded in contrast with people whose only knowledge bout the world comes from what their government feeds them (talking mostly bout Chinese here though). Also China has a long way to go. It is close minded to fail to understand why others think the way they do, too. You're not riding a moral high horse here. The people who go to study in Japan obviously don't feel the same way as those who don't go. But that's not just because they're 'not ignorant.' I've had the opportunity to talk to people from China about what they learn in school about Japan's conduct in WW 2, and it's not all that exaggerated. Obviously they put a greater emphasis on the evils Japan committed, but that's standard practice. I understand why they think (or in some cases not think ) the way they do but I just do not approve of blind hatred. Also noone's on a moral high horse here. Not the Japanese, not the Koreans and definitely not the Chinese. It's not blind hatred. As has been shown many times in this thread, they have a legitimate grievance which Japan has failed to address - Japan's awful war crimes. I think that gives them the moral high ground.
First acknowledge your own crimes (cultural revolution etc.) then we can talk bout being on a moral high horse.
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On September 16 2012 11:12 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 10:44 Feartheguru wrote:On September 16 2012 10:38 Tal wrote:On September 16 2012 08:08 glzElectromaster wrote:People need to stop using analogies god damn it. Analogies are used to simplify situations, not accurately depict it. The holocaust was ethnic cleansing, while crimes such as Nanking Massacre was more of a massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians. I'm a Japanese national. I was born in Japan, and my passion has always been Japanese history. That is, both the light and dark sides of it. Japan committed multiple war crimes throughout the 20s till the mid 40s. That's a fact. Nothing to deny, nothing to make excuses for. At the same time, it's war. What kind of war is an honorable war? To me I don't understand why it's totally unacceptable when a leader of a loser country killed millions of people in a WAR (in a war, I'm pretty sure you kill people...), while a leader of the winning country can cruelly kill millions with carpet bombing and atomic bombs, and get praised world wide for "ending the war". History is all created by the victors. I'm not going to deny Tojo and couple other generals down the south pacific did some gross stuff. But Far East Tribunal was a court of victors calling out the losers for "ethical wrongdoings". Imagine if the United States lost. We would remember Harry Truman as the most evil person that ever existed in the world, dropping atomic bombs, and Douglas McArthur for killing hundreds of POW in the South Pacific. Going back to the case of Nanking Massacre. Sources claim from 60,000 to 200,000 were killed in the battle. But wait, how many civilians died in the carpet bombings of Tokyo? Over 150,000. What's the difference. I'm not saying that both of them can be justified. It's just the same thing -killing thousands of people, and only the loser gets called out for ethical wrongdoings. I can understand the antagonistic feelings towards Japan from practically every country in East Asia. Basically, their entire lift was messed up because a far away island nation, and probably their colonial master country got in a war. But honestly, I don't understand why they need to protest so vigorously over the Senkaku Islands (sorry, I'm not familiar with the Chinese name for it). Both nations want it desperately for the EEZ and the prospected underwater resources. China has its rule of "Patriotism is not a crime" policy were patriotic acts are not punished no matter the circumstance. For example, couple weeks ago the Japanese Ambassador to China got assaulted while traveling in a car. Although China claims to have caught the culprits, no announcements have been made regarding their situation. It's an atmosphere that the Chinese government have long cultured throughout the years, to get the public voice to their favor, but now it's even getting out of their own control. Sure, the Japanese government (and that stupid governor of Tokyo) have been surprisingly aggressive with this, but I don't see where the craziness comes from. I've been in central Tokyo where right wing vocalists have protests about foreigners being horrible and explicitly say that "the Chinese and Koreans are lower class beings". No one looks at them and decides to join. Instead, people just walk by it as if they didn't see anything. Honestly, they are the scariest people. Some guy nearby bumped into one of the protestors, and didn't notice it. The guy got mad and immediately took off for him. In the end, wrongdoings were done to the Chinese people during the wars. Japan hit the country and its civilians very heavily, and the Chinese government in response also engaged in fights involving civilians (such as the deliberate destruction of the levee on one of the 3 major rivers, causing a massive flood aimed to wipe out the Japanese army, which ironically ended up killed millions of farmers). They are people with strong pride, and they are fighting for it. I understand that. But what's wrong is that this current day political issue got mixed up with the feelings of the past, and current day people on both sides are suffering from it. I'm not a genius, so I can't make a very smart and insightful solution to this, but sometime in the future, there has to be a point where both sides acknowledge what actually happened, and come to terms with it. Sorry for the long post. Edit: If you ask any Chinese people, how they feel about Japan, they will answer they hate Japan but deep down there is an admiration for Japan. 20 years ago, Chinese people will leave for Japan if they had a chance(many did), nowadays Chinese tourists are contribute alot to Japanese tourism(biggest number and spender).
I really have to agree with you. I know quite of bit of Chinese and Korean people, and they do seem really ambivalent about the Japanese. They do like Japanese things, but at the same time hate the Japanese. I don't blame them for it, and nothing is actually wrong about it, but I do hope sometime in the future it's all friendly You accuse people of simplifying, and then describe the Nanking Massacre as a 'massive fight unfortunately involving thousands of civilians?' Comeon. It involved 'massacre contests' and the rape of infants, all sanctioned by the high command. The analogy between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan is appealing to historians and the public beacause it's convincing. Both regimes had a strong belief in their racial superiority, and it was shown by the terrible things they did to the world. In fact, looking at the evidence, I would much rather be invaded by Nazis than the Japanese. Just 56 Chinese prisoners of war were released after the war - everyone else was killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimesFor anyone who hasn't read up on it before, that wikipedia page should be pause for reflection. But beyond that, any history of the time is profoundly disturbing. I still can't shake the story of the Japanese using Chinese prisoners and rats to experiment with bubonic plague, and once the trials had finished letting the rats out into the Chinese city, killing thousands upon thousands. The Japanese culture at this time was geniunely sickening, and the lack of a deep apology, or a cultural background of repentance forces me to side with China. Look at Germany - they have repentant monuments to the holocaust, a rich literary field of repentence, and nationwide soul searching. Japan have...some insincere apologies, and an attempt to rewrite history. A long way to go. To step away from history to more personal experiences, I've talked to a lot of Chinese about this debate, and they are fairly pragmatic. Everyone I've spoken to says that if Japan were to deeply apologise, and return the islands, they would be prepared to let bygones be bygones - after all, it is in the past. But by refusing to accept their crimes, they are keeping the wounds open, and well salted. Nazi Germany was basically millions of normal people fighting for their country plus the SS committing war crimes. Imperial Japan was millions of people thinking they are a superior race and a large % of them committing war crimes. The German army was very professional, in 1 week of American occupation the Americans raped more German women than the amount of French women their army raped in the whole 4 years. That is only partially true. Wehrmacht was responsible for several war crimes. If you are interested in the topic you should read about the "commissioner order" which ordered soldiers of the Wehrmacht to shoot soviet political commisioners on sight (also after surrendering) and the "Kriegsgerichtsbarkeitserlass" (sorry I cannot find the english word), which tried to define the treatment of partisans (partisans, spouses of partisans, the village they live in). The commissioner order was usually followed (warcrime), Kriegsgerichtbarkeitserlass was only partially followed, as many higher ranks on the actual front refused to burn down the villages of partisans, which angered Adolf and the leading heads of the OKW. In some units both orders were executed to the full extent, which clearly included various war crimes. EDIT: all in all, Regarding the whole mess the war created, conduct of the Wehrmacht was pretty professional. There were warcrimes, but not on such a large scale like the ones committed from the SS or even other powers fighting in the war. Many scientists say that around 10% of Wehrmacht soldiers took an active part in warcrimes, which is somehow worth mentioning because crimes were ordered from the highest officials and not following orders could have severe consequences for the individual soldier.
So actually it really would be much better to be invaded by Nazis rather than Japanese? When I originally wrote that I was being slightly flippant - but it's seeming increasingly convincing.
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