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Sigh we've gone over this already 9001 times. Those apologies mean nothing because they were just words muttered out of obligation, not to mention the mixed messaging from their leaders. Their actions haven't matched their words either, and at this point their credibility is so gone that they *will* have to bend over backwards to be taken sincerely.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 24 2012 14:46 Taku wrote:
Sigh we've gone over this already 9001 times. Those apologies mean nothing because they were just words muttered out of obligation, not to mention the mixed messaging from their leaders. Their actions haven't matched their words either, and at this point their credibility is so gone that they *will* have to bend over backwards to be taken sincerely.
"words muttered out of obligation" How do you even know that!? And anything at this point would be done "out of obligation." Once again, you guys blow the comfort women issue way out of the water, and it's a shower of hypocrisy.
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On September 24 2012 14:49 robjapan wrote:ExceeD_DreaM is a moron and not worth responding to. BUT if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan–Korea_disputes#Japanese_compensation_to_Korea_for_colonial_ruleJapan and Korea reached an agreement on the amount of compensation and Korea agreed to NEVER ASK FOR MORE MONEY, that is part of the agreement they both signed. Stop being ignorant and spreading hate and lies around the world. The truth is readily available should you take 5mins to learn it.
It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 24 2012 14:51 Taku wrote:It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue.
It's funny because Japan disagrees that the U.S. has apologized to Native Americans enough nor done enough to appease them. What does that even matter? lol. This is why I say you guys are paying way too much attention to this shit. These issues are obviously brought up to bring a surge of nationalism into the populace. Might want to open your eyes to the 'big picture.'
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and in the same article it clearly says many Japanese PMs have apologized including -
Koizumi said, "I once again express my feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology, and also express the feelings of mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, in the war."
It goes on to say -
While Koreans welcomed the apologies at the time, many Koreans now view the statements as insincere, because of continuous misunderstandings between the two nations
So the apologies are rubbish because they have land disputes???
COME ON.... this is obvious hate mongering by the Koreans on this issue, the apologies have been given, the compensation has been paid and yet when land disputes come up, we get all of this BS again.
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On September 24 2012 14:16 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 13:58 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:On September 24 2012 13:52 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 11:44 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:On September 24 2012 11:21 b0mBerMan wrote:On September 23 2012 14:26 robjapan wrote:
Long may it continue!!
All the vast majority of people in the world want is peace, it's a real shame that we have such ugliness among us, but that is where we need to be strong and to tell those people NO, violence and hatred are wrong.
I've been here almost 10 years now, and all I've seen is friendly, kind, peace loving people.
No to hate, No to violence and a BIG YES to peace and friendship.
This is what I and the vast majority of Japanese people believe. I agree and people should stop with all the Japan bashing or any country bashing in general. Japanese Prime minister stated in an interview with WSJ today that there will be no good will payments to sex slaves that suffered under Japanese Imperialism, stating that all payments are done (something like couple hundred dollars -_-). These old ladies who suffered at the age of 15 to 20s are almost all dead but some. When the last survivor passes away, they will never get an apology. They aren't even seeking legal payment, all they want is a heart felt apology. But no, of course Japanese gov't can't do that. A lot of seminars and concerts and information sessions regarding this issue is rejected in Japan. Germany created a foundation named 'Rememberance, Responsibility, and Future' for all that suffered in WW2. Does Japan know what these three words mean? I never blame Japanese citizens (other than some assholes that exist in every country anyway) for the bad image of their country. I blame their gov't and leaders. It is truly embarassing to deny what they did. I'm not sure the Comfort Women want just an apology at this point. They probably want more compensation and for the Japanese to bend over backwards. The Japanese government has given heart-felt apologies before to comfort women. January 1, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa. "[Concerning the comfort women,] I apologize from the bottom of my heart and feel remorse for those people who suffered indescribable hardships"
July 6, 1992. Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato. "The Government again would like to express its sincere apology and remorse to all those who have suffered indescribable hardship as so-called 'wartime comfort women,' irrespective of their nationality or place of birth. With profound remorse and determination that such a mistake must never be repeated, Japan will maintain its stance as a pacifist nation and will endeavor to build up new future-oriented relations with the Republic of Korea and with other countries and regions in Asia. As I listen to many people, I feel truly grieved for this issue. By listening to the opinions of people from various directions, I would like to consider sincerely in what way we can express our feelings to those who suffered such hardship"
August 4, 1993: Chief Cabinet Secretary Yōhei Kōno. "Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women. The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women"
August 31, 1994: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. "Japan's actions in a certain period of the past not only claimed numerous victims here in Japan but also left the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere with scars that are painful even today. I am thus taking this opportunity to state my belief, based on my profound remorse for these acts of aggression, colonial rule, and the like caused such unbearable suffering and sorrow for so many people, that Japan's future path should be one of making every effort to build world peace in line with my no-war commitment. It is imperative for us Japanese to look squarely to our history with the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere. Only with solid basis of mutual understanding and confidence that can be built through overcoming the pain on both sides, can we and the peoples of neighboring countries together clear up the future of Asia-Pacific.... On the issue of wartime 'comfort women,' which seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women, I would like to take this opportunity once again to express my profound and sincere remorse and apologies. With regard to this issue as well, I believe that one way of demonstrating such feelings of apologies and remorse is to work to further promote mutual understanding with the countries and areas concerned as well as to face squarely to the past and ensure that it is rightly conveyed to future generations. This initiative, in this sense, has been drawn up consistent with such belief"
July 1995: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. "The problem of the so-called wartime comfort women is one such scar, which, with the involvement of the Japanese military forces of the time, seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women. This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed" Again, Japan tries to end all issues regarding Comfort Women because of these apologies from ministers. Please read again what I wrote, and see who they need an apology from. Furthermore, Being consistent with apologies would be nice too. An apology and decision to compensate 99 yen (about 1 dollar) to each women doesn't match together very well. Certainly, Prime minister Noda thinks Japan has done everything regarding comfort women issues. To the above poster, these women who suffered, taken at teenager's age, raped, murdered, tortured.. Some of these women are alive. Yes, these Prime Ministers said such and such, but actions did not follow. They are all lip-service. Apology has to be made by the leader, which is the king, not a prime minister, which changes every couple years. These women, which most of them are over 80, are still protesting. Has any of these officials visited Korea and apologized in person to these women? No. All they've shown so far is disrespect. By the way, has Japan admitted to the atrocities by unit 731 and Maruta project? Wha'? The Emperor is NOT the leader of Japan, the Prime Minister is. The Emperor is merely a ceremonial role, and even then, he doesn't have nearly as much clout as Queen Elizabeth. The stature of the royal family in Japan has gotten to the point where a Princess attends a normal university and is not addressed as 'Princess' but merely as '-san'. Anyway, while I would LOVE if Japan's politicians shaped up and kept consistent to their apologies, as they rightfully should, the Comfort Women issue is blown way out of proportion. It's not an issue an entire country should hold a huge grudge against Japan for even though the Japanese have not done everything within their power to make things right. If every country held a grudge like that we'd never get anywhere in the international scene. At the very least, antagonizing Japan with all this hypocrisy is not going to make anything better in the long run. There's only one country in the world who has fully repented, ever, and that's Germany, and giving Japan special attention and trying to force them to swallow their pride generation after generation is going to do no one any good.
Agreed here. Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors (unless they themselves are enjoying some ill-gotten fruit as a result, which, given the devastation wrought on Japan by Allied bombs and starvation tactics, they most certainly did not).
That being said, institutions and a kokutai are immortal. Those things can and should be held to account. The institutions which drew Japan into warfare ought to be disbanded--the Japanese Imperial Seat foremost among them; the JMSDF (not the whole SDF or Japanese military, just the naval component) second. Put simply, Japan must permanently be barred from developing the means to wage offensive war, which its navy, even in its current restricted state, can do--Japan could completely shut down the shipping on which China imports food and energy, which is unacceptable.
These two actions are not meant as a humiliation of the Japanese people. The 123 million Japanese have so much to be proud of--a cultural heritage stretching back millenia; building their country from hermit state to great power in the span of four decades; rebuilding their capital city after it was flattened by an Earthquake; rebuilding their country after it was burnt to ashes by American firebombing; becoming one of the great economic powers of today and a linchpin of a peaceful global order (the purchase of the Diaoyu Islands notwithstanding). There is nothing within that heritage that requires them to retain the second-largest navy in Asia or an Imperial seat.
The choice is Japan's to make. Should Japan choose to keep those twin remnants of its historical sins, then Japan has no one to blame but itself when the citizens of South Korea, Taiwan, or China take to the streets in protest.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 14:16 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 13:58 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:On September 24 2012 13:52 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 11:44 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:On September 24 2012 11:21 b0mBerMan wrote:On September 23 2012 14:26 robjapan wrote:
Long may it continue!!
All the vast majority of people in the world want is peace, it's a real shame that we have such ugliness among us, but that is where we need to be strong and to tell those people NO, violence and hatred are wrong.
I've been here almost 10 years now, and all I've seen is friendly, kind, peace loving people.
No to hate, No to violence and a BIG YES to peace and friendship.
This is what I and the vast majority of Japanese people believe. I agree and people should stop with all the Japan bashing or any country bashing in general. Japanese Prime minister stated in an interview with WSJ today that there will be no good will payments to sex slaves that suffered under Japanese Imperialism, stating that all payments are done (something like couple hundred dollars -_-). These old ladies who suffered at the age of 15 to 20s are almost all dead but some. When the last survivor passes away, they will never get an apology. They aren't even seeking legal payment, all they want is a heart felt apology. But no, of course Japanese gov't can't do that. A lot of seminars and concerts and information sessions regarding this issue is rejected in Japan. Germany created a foundation named 'Rememberance, Responsibility, and Future' for all that suffered in WW2. Does Japan know what these three words mean? I never blame Japanese citizens (other than some assholes that exist in every country anyway) for the bad image of their country. I blame their gov't and leaders. It is truly embarassing to deny what they did. I'm not sure the Comfort Women want just an apology at this point. They probably want more compensation and for the Japanese to bend over backwards. The Japanese government has given heart-felt apologies before to comfort women. January 1, 1992: Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa. "[Concerning the comfort women,] I apologize from the bottom of my heart and feel remorse for those people who suffered indescribable hardships"
July 6, 1992. Chief Cabinet Secretary Koichi Kato. "The Government again would like to express its sincere apology and remorse to all those who have suffered indescribable hardship as so-called 'wartime comfort women,' irrespective of their nationality or place of birth. With profound remorse and determination that such a mistake must never be repeated, Japan will maintain its stance as a pacifist nation and will endeavor to build up new future-oriented relations with the Republic of Korea and with other countries and regions in Asia. As I listen to many people, I feel truly grieved for this issue. By listening to the opinions of people from various directions, I would like to consider sincerely in what way we can express our feelings to those who suffered such hardship"
August 4, 1993: Chief Cabinet Secretary Yōhei Kōno. "Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women. The Government of Japan would like to take this opportunity once again to extend its sincere apologies and remorse to all those, irrespective of place of origin, who suffered immeasurable pain and incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women"
August 31, 1994: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. "Japan's actions in a certain period of the past not only claimed numerous victims here in Japan but also left the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere with scars that are painful even today. I am thus taking this opportunity to state my belief, based on my profound remorse for these acts of aggression, colonial rule, and the like caused such unbearable suffering and sorrow for so many people, that Japan's future path should be one of making every effort to build world peace in line with my no-war commitment. It is imperative for us Japanese to look squarely to our history with the peoples of neighboring Asia and elsewhere. Only with solid basis of mutual understanding and confidence that can be built through overcoming the pain on both sides, can we and the peoples of neighboring countries together clear up the future of Asia-Pacific.... On the issue of wartime 'comfort women,' which seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women, I would like to take this opportunity once again to express my profound and sincere remorse and apologies. With regard to this issue as well, I believe that one way of demonstrating such feelings of apologies and remorse is to work to further promote mutual understanding with the countries and areas concerned as well as to face squarely to the past and ensure that it is rightly conveyed to future generations. This initiative, in this sense, has been drawn up consistent with such belief"
July 1995: Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama. "The problem of the so-called wartime comfort women is one such scar, which, with the involvement of the Japanese military forces of the time, seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women. This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed" Again, Japan tries to end all issues regarding Comfort Women because of these apologies from ministers. Please read again what I wrote, and see who they need an apology from. Furthermore, Being consistent with apologies would be nice too. An apology and decision to compensate 99 yen (about 1 dollar) to each women doesn't match together very well. Certainly, Prime minister Noda thinks Japan has done everything regarding comfort women issues. To the above poster, these women who suffered, taken at teenager's age, raped, murdered, tortured.. Some of these women are alive. Yes, these Prime Ministers said such and such, but actions did not follow. They are all lip-service. Apology has to be made by the leader, which is the king, not a prime minister, which changes every couple years. These women, which most of them are over 80, are still protesting. Has any of these officials visited Korea and apologized in person to these women? No. All they've shown so far is disrespect. By the way, has Japan admitted to the atrocities by unit 731 and Maruta project? Wha'? The Emperor is NOT the leader of Japan, the Prime Minister is. The Emperor is merely a ceremonial role, and even then, he doesn't have nearly as much clout as Queen Elizabeth. The stature of the royal family in Japan has gotten to the point where a Princess attends a normal university and is not addressed as 'Princess' but merely as '-san'. Anyway, while I would LOVE if Japan's politicians shaped up and kept consistent to their apologies, as they rightfully should, the Comfort Women issue is blown way out of proportion. It's not an issue an entire country should hold a huge grudge against Japan for even though the Japanese have not done everything within their power to make things right. If every country held a grudge like that we'd never get anywhere in the international scene. At the very least, antagonizing Japan with all this hypocrisy is not going to make anything better in the long run. There's only one country in the world who has fully repented, ever, and that's Germany, and giving Japan special attention and trying to force them to swallow their pride generation after generation is going to do no one any good. Agreed here. Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors (unless they themselves are enjoying some ill-gotten fruit as a result, which, given the devastation wrought on Japan by Allied bombs and starvation tactics, they most certainly did not). That being said, institutions and a kokutai are immortal. Those things can and should be held to account. The institutions which drew Japan into warfare ought to be disbanded--the Japanese Imperial Seat foremost among them; the JMSDF (not the whole SDF or Japanese military, just the naval component) second. Put simply, Japan must permanently be barred from developing the means to wage offensive war, which its navy, even in its current restricted state, can do--Japan could completely shut down the shipping on which China imports food and energy, which is unacceptable. These two actions are not meant as a humiliation of the Japanese people. The 123 million Japanese have so much to be proud of--a cultural heritage stretching back millenia; building their country from hermit state to great power in the span of four decades; rebuilding their capital city after it was flattened by an Earthquake; rebuilding their country after it was burnt to ashes by American firebombing; becoming one of the great economic powers of today and a linchpin of a peaceful global order (the purchase of the Diaoyu Islands notwithstanding). There is nothing within that heritage that requires them to retain the second-largest navy in Asia or an Imperial seat. The choice is Japan's to make. Should Japan choose to keep those twin remnants of its historical sins, then Japan has no one to blame but itself when the citizens of South Korea, Taiwan, or China take to the streets in protest.
Which kokutai are you referring to btw?
I don't think the imperial throne should be dismantled. Unlike Hitler's government, the imperial family has been around forever and is merely a symbol lasting since many centuries before World War 2 and has undergone many transitions, from the all-mighty sovereign, to a puppet, to a constitutional monarch, and now merely a symbol. The navy, though, I'm sure the Japanese would have agreed with you. It's too bad the U.S. forced them into the Cold War (and the many wars in the Middle East).
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On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors
Yet Germany is swallowing their pride by keeping open the concentration camps to the public as a reminder of what they did in WW2:
http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.html
along with the memorial to Jewish people that died during the holocaust:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_Europe
Japan is nowhere near Germany when it comes to taking responsibility for actions in WW2 - you still have Japanese politicians that are trying to whitewash Japanese WW2 atrocities and rewrite history to make Japan appear more innocent. To the Japanese who claim it can't be done - well, it can be done and you should follow Germany as an example. The relationship between Germany and its neighboring countries is much better while most of Japan's neighbors still hate Japan to this very day.
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The Japanese constitution clearly bans all forms of military maintenance, they are allowed to maintain a self defense force which is very strictly monitored.
Let's take a look at Japan's military power.
Aircraft Carriers - 0
Amphibious warfare ship - 6 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 27 of China)
Cruisers - 0
Destroyers - 10 (compared to 12 from South Korea and 26 from China)
Frigates - 36 (compared to 58 from China)
Corvettes - 24 (compared to 28 from South Korea)
Patrol Boat - 0 (compared to 83 from South Korea)
Nuclear Subs - 0 (compared to 10 from China)
Subs - 17 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 40 from China)
Fighter Aircraft - 374 (compared to 458 from South Korea and 1500 from China)
Attack Helicopters - 0
Nuclear Weapons - 0 (compared to 200 from China)
Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipment
Japan spends 1% of its GDP on it's military, let's compare...
USA 4.7%, South Korea 2.7% and China 2%
source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
it's not like they DON'T have an ability to defend themselves, but I personally don't think the Japanese navy is a threat to anyone and to be honest, island nations are always going to have a big navy right?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 24 2012 15:16 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors Yet Germany is swallowing their pride by keeping open the concentration camps to the public as a reminder of what they did in WW2: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.htmlalong with the memorial to Jewish people that died during the holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_EuropeJapan is nowhere near Germany when it comes to taking responsibility for actions in WW2. To the Japanese who claim it can't be done - well, it can be done and you should follow Germany as an example. The relationship between Germany and its neighboring countries is much better while most of Japan's neighbors still hate Japan to this very day.
Germany is the only country IN THE WORLD to repent as much as they have. To pay special attention to Japan is hypocrisy at its best and is nothing but a scapegoat.
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On September 24 2012 15:18 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:16 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors Yet Germany is swallowing their pride by keeping open the concentration camps to the public as a reminder of what they did in WW2: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.htmlalong with the memorial to Jewish people that died during the holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_EuropeJapan is nowhere near Germany when it comes to taking responsibility for actions in WW2. To the Japanese who claim it can't be done - well, it can be done and you should follow Germany as an example. The relationship between Germany and its neighboring countries is much better while most of Japan's neighbors still hate Japan to this very day. Germany is the only country IN THE WORLD to repent as much as they have. To pay special attention to Japan is hypocrisy at its best and is nothing but a scapegoat.
But certainly you know why the comparison is made? The empire of Japan and Nazi Germany being the Axis powers in WWII.
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On September 24 2012 14:55 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 14:51 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:49 robjapan wrote:ExceeD_DreaM is a moron and not worth responding to. BUT if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan–Korea_disputes#Japanese_compensation_to_Korea_for_colonial_ruleJapan and Korea reached an agreement on the amount of compensation and Korea agreed to NEVER ASK FOR MORE MONEY, that is part of the agreement they both signed. Stop being ignorant and spreading hate and lies around the world. The truth is readily available should you take 5mins to learn it. It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue. It's funny because Japan disagrees that the U.S. has apologized to Native Americans enough nor done enough to appease them. What does that even matter? lol. This is why I say you guys are paying way too much attention to this shit. These issues are obviously brought up to bring a surge of nationalism into the populace. Might want to open your eyes to the 'big picture.'
Okay well let's see. I'm a CBC(Canadian Born Chinese) and have spent quite a bit of time in China, have spent time in Japan and know enough of the language to get me around, and one of my closest friends is a Nisei. I think I've got a decent perspective on the issues as well as the big picture thanks.
My meaning is that everyone is telling the Japanese government that it is in the wrong, and yet the Japanese power bureaucracy seems to be content burying it's head in the sand and ignoring reality. The blame for any consequences of this also must be shared with the apathetic Japanese public who keep voting those pieces of trash into power.
Also the swastika is a symbol and yet it's banned in Germany. Maybe it's because they understand the psychology behind symbols, something the Japanese might want to read up on.
On September 24 2012 15:17 robjapan wrote:The Japanese constitution clearly bans all forms of military maintenance, they are allowed to maintain a self defense force which is very strictly monitored. Let's take a look at Japan's military power. Aircraft Carriers - 0 Amphibious warfare ship - 6 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 27 of China) Cruisers - 0 Destroyers - 10 (compared to 12 from South Korea and 26 from China) Frigates - 36 (compared to 58 from China) Corvettes - 24 (compared to 28 from South Korea) Patrol Boat - 0 (compared to 83 from South Korea) Nuclear Subs - 0 (compared to 10 from China) Subs - 17 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 40 from China) Fighter Aircraft - 374 (compared to 458 from South Korea and 1500 from China) Attack Helicopters - 0 Nuclear Weapons - 0 (compared to 200 from China) Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipmentJapan spends 1% of its GDP on it's military, let's compare... USA 4.7%, South Korea 2.7% and China 2% source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresit's not like they DON'T have an ability to defend themselves, but I personally don't think the Japanese navy is a threat to anyone and to be honest, island nations are always going to have a big navy right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyūga_class_helicopter_destroyer
Because those aren't carriers right? I have to admire their denial that those aren't lol.
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There really are no point in arguing over which side is right and wrong. But as a chinese who knows a bit about the history about this country, I would say that the majority of the blames should go towards China.
What happened in China, whether it was in before or happening right now is really a tragedy, but for different reasons.
In fact, yes Japan did invade China, Comfort Women and the slaughter in the city of Nanjing did happen, these are all facts and Japan at that time was to be blamed. But these are in the past, Japan's government did apology, tho some of it regarding what happened in Nanjing may not be completely true and satisfying, what happened happened, no one can change history, at least at this stage.
But right now, when people look at this nation(China) and its people, all these hatred towards Japan are mainly the results of years of brain washing with Nationalism/ Patriotism or whatever you wanna call it, at people's young ages, result in people being easily manipulatable in that regard.
The concept of a "nation" itself was very loosely defined in the first place. For all those people who participated in the riots throughout China recently, if we are to see this "nation" as one, as in, individual, bare these facts:
Over the past century, one tenth, that's 1/10 of this nation's territory including this Diaoyu island was given out, by ourselves. I don't want to go into detail with these examples but feel free to look it up. We gave a region near the "crown" of the chicken(because..that's what it looks like, or so I've been told) to Russia. We gave some near XiZang to India AFTER we WON the war regarding the conflict of ownership of that region with...well India, which was total bs btw. Hell, we even gave some to burma as I recall.
One might say these are different issues, well, ok, we still gave up that island, onwership to Japan but administration to the USA as I recall from my history class. Over the past decades, no one in this country even bothered to mention this island(slightly exagerating but you get what I mean). Now that the island was moved from Japan's arm to its crouch and people start doing what they do best, to kill themselves. Which is also an interesting fact, as we chinese, killed more chinese, than the conflict with other nations did over the past century.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is to get it over with. Honestly none of these idiots' life would be affected by the outcome of this conflict. And people would say the important thing is that they're fighting for a cause, for what cause exactly? If it is true that we, and by we I mean our government own that island, then get it on ICJ. Don't kill each other( as in chinese) for it, and don't talk shiz like "go to war" or "kill every last one of japanese" or similar stupid shiz. We advance, we move forward in history, so that we can put primitive methods and believes behind, if war is the method we solve things then maybe it's time we consider starting over.
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On September 24 2012 15:18 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:16 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors Yet Germany is swallowing their pride by keeping open the concentration camps to the public as a reminder of what they did in WW2: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.htmlalong with the memorial to Jewish people that died during the holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_EuropeJapan is nowhere near Germany when it comes to taking responsibility for actions in WW2. To the Japanese who claim it can't be done - well, it can be done and you should follow Germany as an example. The relationship between Germany and its neighboring countries is much better while most of Japan's neighbors still hate Japan to this very day. Germany is the only country IN THE WORLD to repent as much as they have. To pay special attention to Japan is hypocrisy at its best and is nothing but a scapegoat.
Of course Japan gets the same attention, lol. Japan was the only other Axis power in WW2 that killed a comparable number of innocent civilians as Germany. Don't forget about the human experimentation and unit 731, in addition to the mass killings.
So you're saying it's okay for Japan not to repent like Germany? Typical response from a brainwashed Japanese.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 24 2012 15:23 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:18 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 15:16 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors Yet Germany is swallowing their pride by keeping open the concentration camps to the public as a reminder of what they did in WW2: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.htmlalong with the memorial to Jewish people that died during the holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_EuropeJapan is nowhere near Germany when it comes to taking responsibility for actions in WW2. To the Japanese who claim it can't be done - well, it can be done and you should follow Germany as an example. The relationship between Germany and its neighboring countries is much better while most of Japan's neighbors still hate Japan to this very day. Germany is the only country IN THE WORLD to repent as much as they have. To pay special attention to Japan is hypocrisy at its best and is nothing but a scapegoat. But certainly you know why the comparison is made? The empire of Japan and Nazi Germany being the Axis powers in WWII.
I do know why it's made and that's why I call it hypocritical and is nothing more than a tool to foster incessant nationalist sentiment against Japan. Good for Germany for being a role model to the entire world. Bad on Japan for not doing everything in their power to appease East Asia. But let's look at the 'big picture' and stop being some fake knights of justice.
On September 24 2012 15:26 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:18 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 15:16 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors Yet Germany is swallowing their pride by keeping open the concentration camps to the public as a reminder of what they did in WW2: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.htmlalong with the memorial to Jewish people that died during the holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_EuropeJapan is nowhere near Germany when it comes to taking responsibility for actions in WW2. To the Japanese who claim it can't be done - well, it can be done and you should follow Germany as an example. The relationship between Germany and its neighboring countries is much better while most of Japan's neighbors still hate Japan to this very day. Germany is the only country IN THE WORLD to repent as much as they have. To pay special attention to Japan is hypocrisy at its best and is nothing but a scapegoat. Of course Japan gets the same attention, lol. Japan was the only other Axis power in WW2 that killed a comparable number of innocent civilians as Germany. Don't forget about the human experimentation and unit 731, in addition to the mass killings. So you're saying it's okay for Japan not to repent like Germany? Typical response from a brainwashed Japanese.
I'm not Japanese you dolt. If you want Japan to apologize to China, let's see China apologize to every country in SEA they have abused, let's see them apologize to Korea, let's see the United States apologize to the Middle East, to Native Americans, and compensate descendants of slaves. Let's see the Dutch dismantle their royal family, and the Portugese bow down to all the colonies they wreaked havoc over. I don't give a damn if these atrocities occurred during WW2. Let's have everyone apologize for every single atrocity they've ever committed. That would be the right thing to do. Let's not single out the Japanese and practice what we preach. Until then take your hypocrisy somewhere else and realize that all of this is blown out of the water to incite nationalist sentiment in these countries.
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On September 24 2012 15:23 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:18 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 15:16 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors Yet Germany is swallowing their pride by keeping open the concentration camps to the public as a reminder of what they did in WW2: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.htmlalong with the memorial to Jewish people that died during the holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_EuropeJapan is nowhere near Germany when it comes to taking responsibility for actions in WW2. To the Japanese who claim it can't be done - well, it can be done and you should follow Germany as an example. The relationship between Germany and its neighboring countries is much better while most of Japan's neighbors still hate Japan to this very day. Germany is the only country IN THE WORLD to repent as much as they have. To pay special attention to Japan is hypocrisy at its best and is nothing but a scapegoat. But certainly you know why the comparison is made? The empire of Japan and Nazi Germany being the Axis powers in WWII.
He's been brainwashed by the Japanese government and education system. According to his world, only Germany committed serious atrocities in WW2 but Japan didn't.
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Canada2068 Posts
On September 24 2012 15:25 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 14:55 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 14:51 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:49 robjapan wrote:ExceeD_DreaM is a moron and not worth responding to. BUT if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan–Korea_disputes#Japanese_compensation_to_Korea_for_colonial_ruleJapan and Korea reached an agreement on the amount of compensation and Korea agreed to NEVER ASK FOR MORE MONEY, that is part of the agreement they both signed. Stop being ignorant and spreading hate and lies around the world. The truth is readily available should you take 5mins to learn it. It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue. It's funny because Japan disagrees that the U.S. has apologized to Native Americans enough nor done enough to appease them. What does that even matter? lol. This is why I say you guys are paying way too much attention to this shit. These issues are obviously brought up to bring a surge of nationalism into the populace. Might want to open your eyes to the 'big picture.' Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:17 robjapan wrote:The Japanese constitution clearly bans all forms of military maintenance, they are allowed to maintain a self defense force which is very strictly monitored. Let's take a look at Japan's military power. Aircraft Carriers - 0 Amphibious warfare ship - 6 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 27 of China) Cruisers - 0 Destroyers - 10 (compared to 12 from South Korea and 26 from China) Frigates - 36 (compared to 58 from China) Corvettes - 24 (compared to 28 from South Korea) Patrol Boat - 0 (compared to 83 from South Korea) Nuclear Subs - 0 (compared to 10 from China) Subs - 17 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 40 from China) Fighter Aircraft - 374 (compared to 458 from South Korea and 1500 from China) Attack Helicopters - 0 Nuclear Weapons - 0 (compared to 200 from China) Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipmentJapan spends 1% of its GDP on it's military, let's compare... USA 4.7%, South Korea 2.7% and China 2% source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresit's not like they DON'T have an ability to defend themselves, but I personally don't think the Japanese navy is a threat to anyone and to be honest, island nations are always going to have a big navy right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyūga_class_helicopter_destroyerBecause those aren't carriers right? I have to admire their denial that those aren't lol.
I don't want to join the debate, but you are really stretching it there. Those "helicopter carriers" can only carry 11 helicopters each. The power of an aircraft carrier (from reading Tom Clancy novels--embarrassing, I know) comes from being able to project sea power by covering areas hundreds of miles wide using close to 100 warplanes on board.
I remember reading China bought some old Russian aircraft carriers.
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On September 24 2012 15:29 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:25 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:55 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 14:51 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:49 robjapan wrote:ExceeD_DreaM is a moron and not worth responding to. BUT if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan–Korea_disputes#Japanese_compensation_to_Korea_for_colonial_ruleJapan and Korea reached an agreement on the amount of compensation and Korea agreed to NEVER ASK FOR MORE MONEY, that is part of the agreement they both signed. Stop being ignorant and spreading hate and lies around the world. The truth is readily available should you take 5mins to learn it. It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue. It's funny because Japan disagrees that the U.S. has apologized to Native Americans enough nor done enough to appease them. What does that even matter? lol. This is why I say you guys are paying way too much attention to this shit. These issues are obviously brought up to bring a surge of nationalism into the populace. Might want to open your eyes to the 'big picture.' On September 24 2012 15:17 robjapan wrote:The Japanese constitution clearly bans all forms of military maintenance, they are allowed to maintain a self defense force which is very strictly monitored. Let's take a look at Japan's military power. Aircraft Carriers - 0 Amphibious warfare ship - 6 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 27 of China) Cruisers - 0 Destroyers - 10 (compared to 12 from South Korea and 26 from China) Frigates - 36 (compared to 58 from China) Corvettes - 24 (compared to 28 from South Korea) Patrol Boat - 0 (compared to 83 from South Korea) Nuclear Subs - 0 (compared to 10 from China) Subs - 17 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 40 from China) Fighter Aircraft - 374 (compared to 458 from South Korea and 1500 from China) Attack Helicopters - 0 Nuclear Weapons - 0 (compared to 200 from China) Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipmentJapan spends 1% of its GDP on it's military, let's compare... USA 4.7%, South Korea 2.7% and China 2% source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresit's not like they DON'T have an ability to defend themselves, but I personally don't think the Japanese navy is a threat to anyone and to be honest, island nations are always going to have a big navy right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyūga_class_helicopter_destroyerBecause those aren't carriers right? I have to admire their denial that those aren't lol. I don't want to join the debate, but you are really stretching it there. Those "helicopter carriers" can only carry 11 helicopters each. The power of an aircraft carrier (from reading Tom Clancy novels--embarrassing, I know) comes from being able to project sea power by covering areas hundreds of miles wide using close to 100 warplanes on board. I remember reading China bought some old Russian aircraft carriers.
Comparing with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_class_aircraft_carrier
Yeah no, those are carriers except in name.
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On September 24 2012 15:16 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors Yet Germany is swallowing their pride by keeping open the concentration camps to the public as a reminder of what they did in WW2: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.htmlalong with the memorial to Jewish people that died during the holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_EuropeJapan is nowhere near Germany when it comes to taking responsibility for actions in WW2 - you still have Japanese politicians that are trying to whitewash Japanese WW2 atrocities and rewrite history to make Japan appear more innocent. To the Japanese who claim it can't be done - well, it can be done and you should follow Germany as an example. The relationship between Germany and its neighboring countries is much better while most of Japan's neighbors still hate Japan to this very day.
What about the rest of the Holocaust victims? Only 6 million of the 11 million were Jews. Why are the rest ignored?
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EPT
