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Canada2068 Posts
On September 24 2012 15:34 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:29 CountChocula wrote:On September 24 2012 15:25 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:55 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 14:51 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:49 robjapan wrote:ExceeD_DreaM is a moron and not worth responding to. BUT if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan–Korea_disputes#Japanese_compensation_to_Korea_for_colonial_ruleJapan and Korea reached an agreement on the amount of compensation and Korea agreed to NEVER ASK FOR MORE MONEY, that is part of the agreement they both signed. Stop being ignorant and spreading hate and lies around the world. The truth is readily available should you take 5mins to learn it. It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue. It's funny because Japan disagrees that the U.S. has apologized to Native Americans enough nor done enough to appease them. What does that even matter? lol. This is why I say you guys are paying way too much attention to this shit. These issues are obviously brought up to bring a surge of nationalism into the populace. Might want to open your eyes to the 'big picture.' On September 24 2012 15:17 robjapan wrote:The Japanese constitution clearly bans all forms of military maintenance, they are allowed to maintain a self defense force which is very strictly monitored. Let's take a look at Japan's military power. Aircraft Carriers - 0 Amphibious warfare ship - 6 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 27 of China) Cruisers - 0 Destroyers - 10 (compared to 12 from South Korea and 26 from China) Frigates - 36 (compared to 58 from China) Corvettes - 24 (compared to 28 from South Korea) Patrol Boat - 0 (compared to 83 from South Korea) Nuclear Subs - 0 (compared to 10 from China) Subs - 17 (compared to 18 from South Korea and 40 from China) Fighter Aircraft - 374 (compared to 458 from South Korea and 1500 from China) Attack Helicopters - 0 Nuclear Weapons - 0 (compared to 200 from China) Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipmentJapan spends 1% of its GDP on it's military, let's compare... USA 4.7%, South Korea 2.7% and China 2% source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expendituresit's not like they DON'T have an ability to defend themselves, but I personally don't think the Japanese navy is a threat to anyone and to be honest, island nations are always going to have a big navy right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyūga_class_helicopter_destroyerBecause those aren't carriers right? I have to admire their denial that those aren't lol. I don't want to join the debate, but you are really stretching it there. Those "helicopter carriers" can only carry 11 helicopters each. The power of an aircraft carrier (from reading Tom Clancy novels--embarrassing, I know) comes from being able to project sea power by covering areas hundreds of miles wide using close to 100 warplanes on board. I remember reading China bought some old Russian aircraft carriers. Comparing with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_class_aircraft_carrierYeah no, those are carriers except in name.
There's a big difference when only helicopters can take off from the former and aircraft (Harriers--a type of jet aircraft) can take off from the latter.
edit: You also missed my point about being able to project sea power, which even 18 Harriers can do quite a lot better than 11 anti-submarine/search-and-rescue helicopters.
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What's the likelyhood of China actually declaring war against Japan? Slim? (serious question)
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 24 2012 15:49 Grimmyman123 wrote:
What's the likelyhood of China actually declaring war against Japan? Slim? (serious question)
Very very absolutely positively unlikely.
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going to war over uninhabited islands?
you guys got to be kidding... negotiation should be and only be the correct action.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 24 2012 15:25 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 14:55 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 14:51 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:49 robjapan wrote:ExceeD_DreaM is a moron and not worth responding to. BUT if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan–Korea_disputes#Japanese_compensation_to_Korea_for_colonial_ruleJapan and Korea reached an agreement on the amount of compensation and Korea agreed to NEVER ASK FOR MORE MONEY, that is part of the agreement they both signed. Stop being ignorant and spreading hate and lies around the world. The truth is readily available should you take 5mins to learn it. It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue. It's funny because Japan disagrees that the U.S. has apologized to Native Americans enough nor done enough to appease them. What does that even matter? lol. This is why I say you guys are paying way too much attention to this shit. These issues are obviously brought up to bring a surge of nationalism into the populace. Might want to open your eyes to the 'big picture.' Okay well let's see. I'm a CBC(Canadian Born Chinese) and have spent quite a bit of time in China, have spent time in Japan and know enough of the language to get me around, and one of my closest friends is a Nisei. I think I've got a decent perspective on the issues as well as the big picture thanks. My meaning is that everyone is telling the Japanese government that it is in the wrong, and yet the Japanese power bureaucracy seems to be content burying it's head in the sand and ignoring reality. The blame for any consequences of this also must be shared with the apathetic Japanese public who keep voting those pieces of trash into power. Also the swastika is a symbol and yet it's banned in Germany. Maybe it's because they understand the psychology behind symbols, something the Japanese might want to read up on.
For some person with a decent perspective on the issue, you sure aren't making any good points.
And really, comparing the swastika symbol to the Japanese Imperial Throne? For your information, nazis are not banned in Germany. If you want to ban the flag of the Japanese Empire, which they have not, you can make that point, and I'd be almost inclined to agree although there are some serious freedom of speech breaches.
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On September 24 2012 15:59 masakenji wrote:
going to war over uninhabited islands?
you guys got to be kidding... negotiation should be and only be the correct action.
China wouldn't go to war--a direct military conflict plays to Japan's strengths (the alliance with the US) and China's weaknesses (tons of overseas shipping and investments to protect without a military to do it.)
China will exert economic pressure on Japanese investments and trade within China. China will also work through unofficial channels (likely Japanese corporations with investments in China) to convey their message, to weaken institutions China believes have been penetrated by the United States/Japanese right-wingers (namely, the Japanese Prime Minister's staff.)
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On September 24 2012 15:49 Grimmyman123 wrote:
What's the likelyhood of China actually declaring war against Japan? Slim? (serious question)
none
global economy & nukes have kept the influential first world countries from going to war against each other
no one wants to destabilize their economy & no one wants to start armageddon
they'll do plenty of posturing, politicizing, and supplying lesser countries to do their bidding though
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On September 24 2012 16:08 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:25 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:55 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 14:51 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:49 robjapan wrote:ExceeD_DreaM is a moron and not worth responding to. BUT if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan–Korea_disputes#Japanese_compensation_to_Korea_for_colonial_ruleJapan and Korea reached an agreement on the amount of compensation and Korea agreed to NEVER ASK FOR MORE MONEY, that is part of the agreement they both signed. Stop being ignorant and spreading hate and lies around the world. The truth is readily available should you take 5mins to learn it. It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue. It's funny because Japan disagrees that the U.S. has apologized to Native Americans enough nor done enough to appease them. What does that even matter? lol. This is why I say you guys are paying way too much attention to this shit. These issues are obviously brought up to bring a surge of nationalism into the populace. Might want to open your eyes to the 'big picture.' Okay well let's see. I'm a CBC(Canadian Born Chinese) and have spent quite a bit of time in China, have spent time in Japan and know enough of the language to get me around, and one of my closest friends is a Nisei. I think I've got a decent perspective on the issues as well as the big picture thanks. My meaning is that everyone is telling the Japanese government that it is in the wrong, and yet the Japanese power bureaucracy seems to be content burying it's head in the sand and ignoring reality. The blame for any consequences of this also must be shared with the apathetic Japanese public who keep voting those pieces of trash into power. Also the swastika is a symbol and yet it's banned in Germany. Maybe it's because they understand the psychology behind symbols, something the Japanese might want to read up on. For some person with a decent perspective on the issue, you sure aren't making any good points. And really, comparing the swastika symbol to the Japanese Imperial Throne? For your information, nazis are not banned in Germany. If you want to ban the flag of the Japanese Empire, which they have not, you can make that point, and I'd be almost inclined to agree although there are some serious freedom of speech breaches.
Okay fine. I'll make the analogy more direct. Would you support making it a crime to display the Chrysanthemum?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 24 2012 16:58 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 16:08 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 15:25 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:55 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 14:51 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:49 robjapan wrote:ExceeD_DreaM is a moron and not worth responding to. BUT if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan–Korea_disputes#Japanese_compensation_to_Korea_for_colonial_ruleJapan and Korea reached an agreement on the amount of compensation and Korea agreed to NEVER ASK FOR MORE MONEY, that is part of the agreement they both signed. Stop being ignorant and spreading hate and lies around the world. The truth is readily available should you take 5mins to learn it. It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue. It's funny because Japan disagrees that the U.S. has apologized to Native Americans enough nor done enough to appease them. What does that even matter? lol. This is why I say you guys are paying way too much attention to this shit. These issues are obviously brought up to bring a surge of nationalism into the populace. Might want to open your eyes to the 'big picture.' Okay well let's see. I'm a CBC(Canadian Born Chinese) and have spent quite a bit of time in China, have spent time in Japan and know enough of the language to get me around, and one of my closest friends is a Nisei. I think I've got a decent perspective on the issues as well as the big picture thanks. My meaning is that everyone is telling the Japanese government that it is in the wrong, and yet the Japanese power bureaucracy seems to be content burying it's head in the sand and ignoring reality. The blame for any consequences of this also must be shared with the apathetic Japanese public who keep voting those pieces of trash into power. Also the swastika is a symbol and yet it's banned in Germany. Maybe it's because they understand the psychology behind symbols, something the Japanese might want to read up on. For some person with a decent perspective on the issue, you sure aren't making any good points. And really, comparing the swastika symbol to the Japanese Imperial Throne? For your information, nazis are not banned in Germany. If you want to ban the flag of the Japanese Empire, which they have not, you can make that point, and I'd be almost inclined to agree although there are some serious freedom of speech breaches. Okay fine. I'll make the analogy more direct. Would you support making it a crime to display the Chrysanthemum?
No, because the Chrysanthemum has been the symbol of the throne waaaay before WW2. I would, however, support banning the Rising Sun Flag which the JMSDF uses to this day, as that was the popular symbol of the Japanese Empire during the war.
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I'm pretty ignorant when it come to China-Japan's history and the current situation so correct me if I get anything wrong here:
+ The earliest record of the islands' ownership date way back to the China's Ming Dynasty in the 14th century.
+ The ownership was then shifted to Japan through the treaty of Shimonoseki as part of the defeat of China's Quing Dynasty in the First Sino-Japanese War during the 19th century.
+ The islands then came under the control of the US after Japan's defeat in WWII after the signing of the Treaty of San Fransisco (which states that Japan must relinquish control of all islands except a few islands which did not include Senkaku islands)(which creates another debate that the control should be shifted to China instead).
+ The islands then were given back to Japan in 1976(or something like that) by the US with the Okinawa Reversion Treaty.
+ So legally, the islands belong to Japan?
Talking from the ethical side, Japan did commit terrible war crimes during WWII, but didn't they compensate approximately $300 billion to the involved countries? I agree that the apologies they made didn't sound most sincere and the fact that they still pray for past war criminals (for some reason I don't know) doesn't help. But all these anti-Japan from the Chinese seems to be uncalled for because imo the current generation shouldn't have to pay for what their ancestor did. But then again, knowing how the chinese people react to dispute between countries (e.g. paracel islands with vietnam), I'm leaning toward that the fault are at the chinese goverment and their media for "inspiring"/"brainwashing" (poor choice of word, I know) their people with biased informations.
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On September 24 2012 18:06 brachester wrote:
I'm pretty ignorant when it come to China-Japan's history and the current situation so correct me if I get anything wrong here:
+ The earliest record of the islands' ownership date way back to the China's Ming Dynasty in the 14th century.
+ The ownership was then shifted to Japan through the treaty of Shimonoseki as part of the defeat of China's Quing Dynasty in the First Sino-Japanese War during the 19th century.
+ The islands then came under the control of the US after Japan's defeat in WWII after the signing of the Treaty of San Fransisco (which states that Japan must relinquish control of all islands except a few islands which did not include Senkaku islands)(which creates another debate that the control should be shifted to China instead).
+ The islands then were given back to Japan in 1976(or something like that) by the US with the Okinawa Reversion Treaty.
+ So legally, the islands belong to Japan?
Talking from the ethical side, Japan did commit terrible war crimes during WWII, but didn't they compensate approximately $300 billion to the involved countries? I agree that the apologies they made didn't sound most sincere and the fact that they still pray for past war criminals (for some reason I don't know) doesn't help. But all these anti-Japan from the Chinese seems to be uncalled for because imo the current generation shouldn't have to pay for what their ancestor did. But then again, knowing how the chinese people react to dispute between countries (e.g. paracel islands with vietnam), I'm leaning toward that the fault are at the chinese goverment and their media for "inspiring"/"brainwashing" (poor choice of word, I know) their people with biased informations.
I can say for certain that the government has nothing to do with the anti-Japanese sentiment throughout China. People there just don't let go of the shit Japan did during WW2 (and lack of apology / rewriting their history books to exclude ww2 atrocities / big political figures honoring war criminals doesn't help). You don't need government propaganda to induce a Chinese-Japanese hatred.
And yes, in a sense "legally" the islands belong to Japan, but that is exactly what the Chinese are / have been disputing for the last 4 decades--that the US was wrong to hand control over to Japan.
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On September 24 2012 18:06 brachester wrote:
I'm pretty ignorant when it come to China-Japan's history and the current situation so correct me if I get anything wrong here:
+ The earliest record of the islands' ownership date way back to the China's Ming Dynasty in the 14th century.
+ The ownership was then shifted to Japan through the treaty of Shimonoseki as part of the defeat of China's Quing Dynasty in the First Sino-Japanese War during the 19th century.
+ The islands then came under the control of the US after Japan's defeat in WWII after the signing of the Treaty of San Fransisco (which states that Japan must relinquish control of all islands except a few islands which did not include Senkaku islands)(which creates another debate that the control should be shifted to China instead).
+ The islands then were given back to Japan in 1976(or something like that) by the US with the Okinawa Reversion Treaty.
+ So legally, the islands belong to Japan?
Talking from the ethical side, Japan did commit terrible war crimes during WWII, but didn't they compensate approximately $300 billion to the involved countries? I agree that the apologies they made didn't sound most sincere and the fact that they still pray for past war criminals (for some reason I don't know) doesn't help. But all these anti-Japan from the Chinese seems to be uncalled for because imo the current generation shouldn't have to pay for what their ancestor did. But then again, knowing how the chinese people react to dispute between countries (e.g. paracel islands with vietnam), I'm leaning toward that the fault are at the chinese goverment and their media for "inspiring"/"brainwashing" (poor choice of word, I know) their people with biased informations.
Most Chinese people do not see that treaty as legitimate, similar to how the Qing Dynasty also signed over Hong Kong and Macau, it's very difficult to argue for the legitimacy of an action when you are the aggressor and demand gains of territory and reparation when the other party (it can be argued) is defending itself against aggression. There are very few arguments against the actual legality of the treaty and how it was signed, but most people see it as legal but illegitimate.
Anti-Japan nationalist sentiment is mirrored by Anti-China nationalist sentiment in Japan, many could argue that the active ongoing actions of denial over atrocities is what sparks the Anti-Japan sentiment in the younger generations, ignoring the historical context if the Mayor of Beijing in the present day made crudely offensive remarks denying past Chinese atrocities there would be Anti-Chinese sentiments too. The faults should always pinned on the individuals who forgo personal responsibility if they can capable to understand the consequences of their actions.
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On September 24 2012 13:35 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 24 2012 12:39 robjapan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
*sigh*
These politicians get in power because they are good at their jobs, then at some point they say some stupid shit about the war, people go... woah.. you can't say shit like that, the guy apologizes and life moves on.
Then some forum wise ass finds a quote and says... OMG WHY IS HE IN POWER???
Someone said why does the US need a big army? because the US has signed agreements promising to protect various nations around the world, one of them being Japan.
This is their responsibility and they have to build and maintain an army to fulfill their agreements.
Ok go, why does China need a big army?
And the guy who said they gave a "few hundred dollars" where are these idiots pulling this shit from? right out their ass by the looks of it.
As an initial payment, it was around 350 million dollars, which mean around 3000 dollars each, the Japanese setup an additional fund in the 90s to further compensate these comfort women. They did this VOLUNTARILY.
I give up on this thread, people please, read about a situation before you comment about it,,,, :-/
Peace out guys, remember All you need is love!
I give up on people like you. You are the one who needs to know about the situation before commenting at all. It is because of people like you that Japan cannot be forgiven even as of today. First of all, the fund in 90s, specifically 'Asian Women's Fund' in 1994 was funded by Japanese only in operation, but the fund money came from donators only. There is a problem here that the fund money did not come directly from the Japanese Government. At the time, this fund by Murayama was criticized heavily by Koreans. In 'Asian Women's Fund' report, it states that the charity tried to compensate approximately 2 million dollars to Korean and Filipino (which is an amount that can't even be considered a compensation for life time of pain). This was rejected in Korea for obvious reasons because this really wasn't an apology. In Korea, people were infuriated at Japan's posture regarding this matter because they tried to evade being responsible by making it a public charity instead of a government compensated fund. In 1997, this fund stopped its activity in Korea. Even after several years of fund being set up, only 9 women by the end of 1996 (All Filipino, out of 107 comfort women) took the compensation. Even these women stated that this fund compensation and apology from Japanese Gov't is a separate thing. Considering the number of known comfort women, the compensation made to them is pitiful and apology non-existent. As for your 350 million compensation, that was a WAR COMPENSATION TO KOREA as a WHOLE for the war damages. That 350 Million dollars INCLUDES compensation for comfort women. but if 350 million was for the war damages, imagine how much it was set aside for the comfort women. NONE. They received none, and your claim is bogus. There is a serious misunderstanding you are having right now. The apology made through fund and etc, regardless of the intention, is not enough. When one organization or a group commits a crime to another, the leader must express its apology. If the leader is dead, the successor must. At the time of the war, the leader was the king of Japan. Now that he is dead, the apology must be made by Akihiro, the current king, which never happened yet. The compensation must be through the government not a public charity. This action of trying to pull away from responsibility is absolutely horrendous. Do you know in 2008, Japanese supreme court ordered its corporations (such as Mitsubishi that participated in slavery) to pay the comfort women 99 Yen each? The women sued these companies in 1998 because they were never paid for the work they did, and asked for compensation of 'welfare pension' that they were in at the time. 99 yen is all they were paid after all they went through. The name 'comfort women' is technically wrong too. Hilary Clinton said it best recently. They were 'Sex Slaves'. They need to compensate these women before they all die (There aren't many left) and aside from the compensation, THEY NEED TO APOLOGIZE TRUTHFULLY. These old ladies STILL to this day protest every Wednesday in front of the Japanese Embassy in Korea for the past 20 years.
Financial aspect of the argument:
Agreement Between Japan and the Republic of Korea Concerning the Settlement of Problems in Regard to Property and Claims and Economic Cooperation
Article II
1 The High Contracting Parties confirm that the problems concerning property, rights, and interests of the two High Contracting Parties and their peoples (including juridical persons) and the claims between the High Contracting Parties and between their peoples, including those stipulated in Article IV(a) of the Peace Treaty with Japan signed at the city of San Francisco on September 8, 1951, have been settled completely and finally.
Not much else to say. If you think money was allocated into inappropriate fields, that's Korea's domestic problem. Sue Korean government then, not Japanese government.
99yen argument:
The compensation must be through the government not a public charity. This action of trying to pull away from responsibility is absolutely horrendous. Do you know in 2008, Japanese supreme court ordered its corporations (such as Mitsubishi that participated in slavery) to pay the comfort women 99 Yen each? The women sued these companies in 1998 because they were never paid for the work they did, and asked for compensation of 'welfare pension' that they were in at the time. 99 yen is all they were paid after all they went through.
First, it would be nice if you learn the difference between
comfort women( or whatever English translation of 위안부,慰安婦) and
women's volunteer corps( or whatever English translation of 여자근로정신대,女子挺身隊).
Also, there is no such Japanese supreme court order. If any, please source. I think you are mixing up with another "Korean" supreme court order. 99yen was paid as lump-sum refund at withdrawal from welfare pension by the judgement of Jepanese Ministry of Health, Labour, and Welfare. Comfort women, supreme court and compensation all have nothing to do with this particular issue.
Who needs to apologize argument:
Obviously Japanese Prime Minister who represent Japanese people as a whole. Since emperor didn't/doesn't have any political power/obligation, apology from him is optional. If any country truly want apology from emperor, then back off such claims. If it ever happens, emperor apologizing voluntarily is what matters the most. Pressure makes it harder to happen. Just stick to PM when blaming Japan.
Semantics argument:
Basically, paid prostitutes=comfort women=sex slaves in this context. Which word you want to use depends on your perspective. I don't think there exists a crystal-clear definition of each.
Apology argument:
THEY NEED TO APOLOGIZE TRUTHFULLY.
This, I agree. Although Japanese government has apologized multiple times, they have been doing pisspoor jobs at delivering. They are overly defensive about EVERYTHING. In my opinion, what Japan needs to do is plan/host a big apology statament/event so that remorse can't be any clearer for the acts that even Japanese side admits. At the same time, Japan doesn't have to admit everything victim side says. Apologizing sincerely in a remourseful mannter in one field doesn't prevent Japan from rebutting/counterarguing in another field. Lack of clear message hurts Japan's credibility even for some relatively legitimate Japanese claims.
oops, derailing again. I guess in the context of Japanese compensation, this is relevant enough.
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On September 24 2012 16:08 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:25 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:55 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 14:51 Taku wrote:On September 24 2012 14:49 robjapan wrote:ExceeD_DreaM is a moron and not worth responding to. BUT if you really want to know http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan–Korea_disputes#Japanese_compensation_to_Korea_for_colonial_ruleJapan and Korea reached an agreement on the amount of compensation and Korea agreed to NEVER ASK FOR MORE MONEY, that is part of the agreement they both signed. Stop being ignorant and spreading hate and lies around the world. The truth is readily available should you take 5mins to learn it. It's funny because according to your link, both the US House of Representatives and European Parliament disagree that Japan has apologized and atoned for the comfort women issue. It's funny because Japan disagrees that the U.S. has apologized to Native Americans enough nor done enough to appease them. What does that even matter? lol. This is why I say you guys are paying way too much attention to this shit. These issues are obviously brought up to bring a surge of nationalism into the populace. Might want to open your eyes to the 'big picture.' Okay well let's see. I'm a CBC(Canadian Born Chinese) and have spent quite a bit of time in China, have spent time in Japan and know enough of the language to get me around, and one of my closest friends is a Nisei. I think I've got a decent perspective on the issues as well as the big picture thanks. My meaning is that everyone is telling the Japanese government that it is in the wrong, and yet the Japanese power bureaucracy seems to be content burying it's head in the sand and ignoring reality. The blame for any consequences of this also must be shared with the apathetic Japanese public who keep voting those pieces of trash into power. Also the swastika is a symbol and yet it's banned in Germany. Maybe it's because they understand the psychology behind symbols, something the Japanese might want to read up on. For some person with a decent perspective on the issue, you sure aren't making any good points. And really, comparing the swastika symbol to the Japanese Imperial Throne? For your information, nazis are not banned in Germany. If you want to ban the flag of the Japanese Empire, which they have not, you can make that point, and I'd be almost inclined to agree although there are some serious freedom of speech breaches.
Please don't talk about stuff you don't know about. Germany is and has been banning so called "Kameradschaften" (neo-nazi organisations) whenever they could. But being a democracy and stuff, we can't just ban left an right like a dictatorship (for example the NPD, political group - we tried to ban them once, and failed - but there's another try in the making [source], also this).
Everything regarding WW2/Hitler/Swastika/Nazis is considered an act against our constitution, and will get banned as soon as possible. But its not easy to ban something that may obviously be neo-nazism, but does not make the mistake to openly talk about WW2, Hitler, Holocaust etc. Thats why its hard to prove that the NPD is an enemy of our constitution. And as long as it is not 100% proven and clear, they are "innocent". Its called laws, my friend.
Its not like we dont ban Nazis (which is a retarded statement), we just can't ban them sometimes (rare cases). But that does not stop us from trying (over and over again if needed). Of course we could just plain ban them (without backing of laws and stuff), but then we actually would act like the germany of 60 years ago. Kinda idiotic to want that.
Edit: sources are german sadly, here is an english one. Read and learn.
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On September 24 2012 15:26 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 15:18 Souma wrote:On September 24 2012 15:16 xelnaga_empire wrote:On September 24 2012 14:59 Shady Sands wrote:
Forcing the Japanese people to swallow pride in their own country generation after generation is an unfair punishment, as people should bear no responsibility for the actions of their ancestors Yet Germany is swallowing their pride by keeping open the concentration camps to the public as a reminder of what they did in WW2: http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.htmlalong with the memorial to Jewish people that died during the holocaust: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_EuropeJapan is nowhere near Germany when it comes to taking responsibility for actions in WW2. To the Japanese who claim it can't be done - well, it can be done and you should follow Germany as an example. The relationship between Germany and its neighboring countries is much better while most of Japan's neighbors still hate Japan to this very day. Germany is the only country IN THE WORLD to repent as much as they have. To pay special attention to Japan is hypocrisy at its best and is nothing but a scapegoat. Of course Japan gets the same attention, lol. Japan was the only other Axis power in WW2 that killed a comparable number of innocent civilians as Germany. Don't forget about the human experimentation and unit 731, in addition to the mass killings. So you're saying it's okay for Japan not to repent like Germany? Typical response from a brainwashed Japanese.
It's okay for Japan not to repent like Sovjet etc. All respect to Germany, but it's one country out of a hundred which have tons of shit to apologize for, and the only one to actually do so.
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On September 24 2012 18:06 brachester wrote:
I'm pretty ignorant when it come to China-Japan's history and the current situation so correct me if I get anything wrong here:
+ The earliest record of the islands' ownership date way back to the China's Ming Dynasty in the 14th century.
+ The ownership was then shifted to Japan through the treaty of Shimonoseki as part of the defeat of China's Quing Dynasty in the First Sino-Japanese War during the 19th century.
+ The islands then came under the control of the US after Japan's defeat in WWII after the signing of the Treaty of San Fransisco (which states that Japan must relinquish control of all islands except a few islands which did not include Senkaku islands)(which creates another debate that the control should be shifted to China instead).
+ The islands then were given back to Japan in 1976(or something like that) by the US with the Okinawa Reversion Treaty.
+ So legally, the islands belong to Japan?
Talking from the ethical side, Japan did commit terrible war crimes during WWII, but didn't they compensate approximately $300 billion to the involved countries? I agree that the apologies they made didn't sound most sincere and the fact that they still pray for past war criminals (for some reason I don't know) doesn't help. But all these anti-Japan from the Chinese seems to be uncalled for because imo the current generation shouldn't have to pay for what their ancestor did. But then again, knowing how the chinese people react to dispute between countries (e.g. paracel islands with vietnam), I'm leaning toward that the fault are at the chinese goverment and their media for "inspiring"/"brainwashing" (poor choice of word, I know) their people with biased informations.
+ The ownership was then shifted to Japan through the treaty of Shimonoseki as part of the defeat of China's Quing Dynasty in the First Sino-Japanese War during the 19th century.
according to China.
According to Japan, the islands, which they considered terra nullius(no man's land) at the time, had been incorporated into Japanese territory before Treaty of Shimonoseki. Hence, it was not a part of Taiwan that was ceded by the treaty, they say.
+ The islands then came under the control of the US after Japan's defeat in WWII after the signing of the Treaty of San Fransisco (which states that Japan must relinquish control of all islands except a few islands which did not include Senkaku islands)(which creates another debate that the control should be shifted to China instead).
First problem is that the word "Senkaku" never appeared in the treaty. The only relevant part is "Taiwan." Whether Taiwan includes Diaoyu/Senkaku isalnds is one of the things that's disputed.
Second problem is that neither PRC nor ROC were part of San Francisco Treaty. They were not invited due to civil war and legitimacy issue.
+ So legally, the islands belong to Japan?
I'd say legally, it is disputed. It's just that Japan is the side that currently controls the islands. I personally think bringing the issue to ICJ(international court of justice) is appropriate.
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On September 24 2012 18:06 brachester wrote:
I'm pretty ignorant when it come to China-Japan's history and the current situation so correct me if I get anything wrong here:
+ The earliest record of the islands' ownership date way back to the China's Ming Dynasty in the 14th century.
+ The ownership was then shifted to Japan through the treaty of Shimonoseki as part of the defeat of China's Quing Dynasty in the First Sino-Japanese War during the 19th century.
+ The islands then came under the control of the US after Japan's defeat in WWII after the signing of the Treaty of San Fransisco (which states that Japan must relinquish control of all islands except a few islands which did not include Senkaku islands)(which creates another debate that the control should be shifted to China instead).
+ The islands then were given back to Japan in 1976(or something like that) by the US with the Okinawa Reversion Treaty.
+ So legally, the islands belong to Japan?
No, the island do not legally belong to Japan - this is in dispute. From China's side, the islands belong to Taiwan. After WW2, the island should have been returned to China along with Taiwan but US ended up with control of the islands. Unfortunately, the Cold War started and by the 1970s, the US decided to return the islands to its ally Japan, rather than its communist enemy at the time, China. The issue has been further complicated by what the US did in the 1970s when they returned the islands to Japan (there was no way the US would screw an ally over a communist enemy during the Cold War).
But all these anti-Japan from the Chinese seems to be uncalled for because imo the current generation shouldn't have to pay for what their ancestor did.
The problem is the current generation of Japan. There are high level government officials in Japan today who are trying to whitewash the atrocities they committed in WW2 by rewriting the textbooks for Japanese students. In effect, there is the history of WW2 as agreed upon by every country outside of Japan, and then there is Japan's version of WW2 history.
Since you are Australian, here is an Australian source about the Japanese revisionism of WW2 history to make Japan look alot more innocent than it really was during wW2:
http://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarCrimes/Denying_truth2.html
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On September 24 2012 19:53 Tobberoth wrote:
It's okay for Japan not to repent like Sovjet etc. All respect to Germany, but it's one country out of a hundred which have tons of shit to apologize for, and the only one to actually do so.
As you wrote it yourself, the keyword here is "respect." This is why many of Japan's neighbors don't respect Japan and the hatred for Japan still exists today.
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On September 24 2012 18:18 synapse wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 24 2012 18:06 brachester wrote:
I'm pretty ignorant when it come to China-Japan's history and the current situation so correct me if I get anything wrong here:
+ The earliest record of the islands' ownership date way back to the China's Ming Dynasty in the 14th century.
+ The ownership was then shifted to Japan through the treaty of Shimonoseki as part of the defeat of China's Quing Dynasty in the First Sino-Japanese War during the 19th century.
+ The islands then came under the control of the US after Japan's defeat in WWII after the signing of the Treaty of San Fransisco (which states that Japan must relinquish control of all islands except a few islands which did not include Senkaku islands)(which creates another debate that the control should be shifted to China instead).
+ The islands then were given back to Japan in 1976(or something like that) by the US with the Okinawa Reversion Treaty.
+ So legally, the islands belong to Japan?
Talking from the ethical side, Japan did commit terrible war crimes during WWII, but didn't they compensate approximately $300 billion to the involved countries? I agree that the apologies they made didn't sound most sincere and the fact that they still pray for past war criminals (for some reason I don't know) doesn't help. But all these anti-Japan from the Chinese seems to be uncalled for because imo the current generation shouldn't have to pay for what their ancestor did. But then again, knowing how the chinese people react to dispute between countries (e.g. paracel islands with vietnam), I'm leaning toward that the fault are at the chinese goverment and their media for "inspiring"/"brainwashing" (poor choice of word, I know) their people with biased informations. I can say for certain that the government has nothing to do with the anti-Japanese sentiment throughout China. People there just don't let go of the shit Japan did during WW2 (and lack of apology / rewriting their history books to exclude ww2 atrocities / big political figures honoring war criminals doesn't help). You don't need government propaganda to induce a Chinese-Japanese hatred. And yes, in a sense "legally" the islands belong to Japan, but that is exactly what the Chinese are / have been disputing for the last 4 decades--that the US was wrong to hand control over to Japan.
The previous owners (the US) decided to cede their rights to the island over to Japan. now Japan is the owner.
There's not much more to be said on the subject if your starting-point is "the US was wrong to hand control over to Japan".
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On September 24 2012 20:28 LunaSea wrote:
The previous owners (the US) decided to cede their rights to the island over to Japan. now Japan is the owner.
There's not much more to be said on the subject if your starting-point is "the US was wrong to hand control over to Japan".
Read a few replies up on what Orek posted:
On September 24 2012 19:55 Orek wrote:
PRC nor ROC were part of San Francisco Treaty. They were not invited due to civil war and legitimacy issue.
China was too busy fighting a civil war during the San Francisco Treaty. During the discussion of the San Francisco Treaty, neither governments from China were "recognized" so China was not invited to the San Francisco Treaty. Thus, the islands by default fell to US ownership right after WW2. By the 1970s, the US was too busy fighting communism in the Cold War and because the communists won in China, there was no way the US would give the islands to to a communist enemy over their ally in Japan.
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EPT
