On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote: uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis?
It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly.
sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious.
The super abridged version?
Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite.
Check out this picture
Make sense?
holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades?
In short, Palestine and other Islamic Countries tried to take over Israel over many years, and Israel kept beating them. Thats why the land changed so much.
Israel kept beating them... With tons of awesome weapons sent by their friends in the USA.
So that's problem, that they fought unfairly with better weapons?
Nope. It's not a problem. Israel beat those sand people/terrorists with good tactics. They also develop their own weapon systems, too. Like the door busting attachment and the kitty corner shot and the Rafael system. But they do get funding from the US, too. Now if only they would expand into a Greater Israel. If only the US would just 'bring democracy' over to all of Arabia...
On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote: uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis?
It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly.
sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious.
The super abridged version?
Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite.
Check out this picture
Make sense?
holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades?
In short, Palestine and other Islamic Countries tried to take over Israel over many years, and Israel kept beating them. Thats why the land changed so much.
Israel kept beating them... With tons of awesome weapons sent by their friends in the USA.
So that's problem, that they fought unfairly with better weapons?
Nope. It's not a problem. Israel beat those sand people/terrorists with good tactics. They also develop their own weapon systems, too. Like the door busting attachment and the kitty corner shot and the Rafael system. But they do get funding from the US, too. Now if only they would expand into a Greater Israel. If only the US would just 'bring democracy' over to all of Arabia...
On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote: uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis?
The purpose of such a law is to say to the world 'look, we don't want to cut funding, but if you invite Palestine, that's what'll happen'. It's creating an automatic ultimatum to deter the organization from taking actions you don't want.
One of the basics of deterrence is to make people believe you'll follow through if they do what you don't want. Creating internal laws that bind policymakers is one of those ways.
On November 02 2011 01:17 B00ts wrote: I'd just like to point out... The fact that Israel is backed by the US is not the main reason they have won every war they have been a part of. They have the most highly trained armed forces in the world, the second "most deadliest" martial art in the world (second only to shaolin kung-fu), have mandatory military service(is this still true?.. Might not be anymore), and the terrain heavily favors defending it.
In fact that last time Israel was in a major conflict, the western powers had to figuratively beg them not to push into Egypt and Syria and take their capitols. (It actually might not have been the 'last' conflict... But one of the wars with egypt/syria.
In the first war, only miscommunication between the Arab forces prevented them from achieving victory. Later, the US provided cutting edge technology to Israel, which gave it a huge edge over it's enemies. One of the deciding advantages Israel possesses is its airforce, which alone allowed it to win many of its wars.
Technology wins wars. An unrivaled airforce is a huge deterrent. It's very demoralizing to fight against something that attacks out of the nowhere without a chance to retaliate.
On November 02 2011 01:17 B00ts wrote: I'd just like to point out... The fact that Israel is backed by the US is not the main reason they have won every war they have been a part of. They have the most highly trained armed forces in the world, the second "most deadliest" martial art in the world (second only to shaolin kung-fu), have mandatory military service(is this still true?.. Might not be anymore), and the terrain heavily favors defending it.
In fact that last time Israel was in a major conflict, the western powers had to figuratively beg them not to push into Egypt and Syria and take their capitols. (It actually might not have been the 'last' conflict... But one of the wars with egypt/syria.
Totally wrong. Egyptian and Syrian military was a joke at that time. ANYONE could have beaten them. The last time they tried something fishy, they had to retreat after realizing they were heading to a bloodbath.
Your logic astounds me good sir. Just because your enemy is terrible, does not mean you cannot be among the best trained armies in the world. Just because anyone could have beaten them, does not mean Israel does not have one of the best trained forces in the world.
Ask any knowledgeable person on Israel, or military history if you do not believe me... The Israeli army, while perhaps not too large, is a beast.
I used to date a girl that was on the IDF.
With your logic, I should be able to state that the Argentine Airforce is top tier because we sank a shitload of british ships during the falklands.
Srsly. Israel likes picking fights with the weak kids of the block. They retreated from lebanon after unacceptable losses. (around 700).
On November 02 2011 01:06 Nash wrote: Yay another anti-semitic thread on TL. Let the jew-bashing proceed!
Dont be childish. No one is bashing Jews, people are just discussing what happened (Both in the last weeks and last century)
This.
Also, the US policies baffle me sometimes (a lot if I'm honest)
On November 02 2011 01:11 RageBot wrote: Now, I don't think that the governmant should keep most of the territory conquered, however, we just can't risk having terrorists getting even closer to our cities.
Catch-22 isn't it? Would the "terrorists" exist if they didn't perceive Israel to be stealing their land? Its a touchy and emotive subject. In South Africa years ago, the ANC were considered terrorists even though they were fighting for their rights as oppressed people. What makes what the Palestinians are doing different? One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I don't say this out of any disrespect to people who have had losses of those near and dear to them, merely to point out the other side of the story.
Yes, they will exist. Or do you think that every other terrorist attack in history was because of Israel? Or things like what happened in Denmark/France after that cartoonist drew Mohammad?
They are not Freedom Fighters, they run from the military and aim solely for citizen targets, they are the exact opposits of Freedom Fighters. Not to mention that most of the money that Hamas gets for it's citizens is spent on military weapons and ammunition.
Take a look from another perspective please. Support for Hamas does not come from thin air; they aren't a small group either. Seeing as there are people who support Hamas, therefore, people do see them as freedom fighters. It's not as black and white as you are claiming.
On November 02 2011 01:06 Nash wrote: Yay another anti-semitic thread on TL. Let the jew-bashing proceed!
Dont be childish. No one is bashing Jews, people are just discussing what happened (Both in the last weeks and last century)
This.
Also, the US policies baffle me sometimes (a lot if I'm honest)
On November 02 2011 01:11 RageBot wrote: Now, I don't think that the governmant should keep most of the territory conquered, however, we just can't risk having terrorists getting even closer to our cities.
Catch-22 isn't it? Would the "terrorists" exist if they didn't perceive Israel to be stealing their land? Its a touchy and emotive subject. In South Africa years ago, the ANC were considered terrorists even though they were fighting for their rights as oppressed people. What makes what the Palestinians are doing different? One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I don't say this out of any disrespect to people who have had losses of those near and dear to them, merely to point out the other side of the story.
Yes, they will exist. Or do you think that every other terrorist attack in history was because of Israel? Or things like what happened in Denmark/France after that cartoonist drew Mohammad?
They are not Freedom Fighters, they run from the military and aim solely for citizen targets, they are the exact opposits of Freedom Fighters. Not to mention that most of the money that Hamas gets for it's citizens is spent on military weapons and ammunition.
Tbh you are polarizing the conflict. As if those people live to harm others and that's their main point of living. Talking about the drawings would destroy the thread, but i assure you that it wasn't ''only'' because of the fact they drew what they drew.
On November 02 2011 01:17 B00ts wrote: I'd just like to point out... The fact that Israel is backed by the US is not the main reason they have won every war they have been a part of. They have the most highly trained armed forces in the world, the second "most deadliest" martial art in the world (second only to shaolin kung-fu), have mandatory military service(is this still true?.. Might not be anymore), and the terrain heavily favors defending it.
In fact that last time Israel was in a major conflict, the western powers had to figuratively beg them not to push into Egypt and Syria and take their capitols. (It actually might not have been the 'last' conflict... But one of the wars with egypt/syria.
And the fact that their entire military is backed by the US and all their funding is from the US and all their military development is funded by the US so yeah they only won because they're backed by the US. Nor do they have the most highly trained in the world by any measure, though this depends on what you mean.
On November 02 2011 01:06 Nash wrote: Yay another anti-semitic thread on TL. Let the jew-bashing proceed!
Dont be childish. No one is bashing Jews, people are just discussing what happened (Both in the last weeks and last century)
This.
Also, the US policies baffle me sometimes (a lot if I'm honest)
On November 02 2011 01:11 RageBot wrote: Now, I don't think that the governmant should keep most of the territory conquered, however, we just can't risk having terrorists getting even closer to our cities.
Catch-22 isn't it? Would the "terrorists" exist if they didn't perceive Israel to be stealing their land? Its a touchy and emotive subject. In South Africa years ago, the ANC were considered terrorists even though they were fighting for their rights as oppressed people. What makes what the Palestinians are doing different? One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I don't say this out of any disrespect to people who have had losses of those near and dear to them, merely to point out the other side of the story.
Yes, they will exist. Or do you think that every other terrorist attack in history was because of Israel? Or things like what happened in Denmark/France after that cartoonist drew Mohammad?
They are not Freedom Fighters, they run from the military and aim solely for citizen targets, they are the exact opposits of Freedom Fighters. Not to mention that most of the money that Hamas gets for it's citizens is spent on military weapons and ammunition.
Stop bending reality, Israel zionists were the first to use suicide bombers against the british when they ruled palestine. There is no "good" and "evil" side here.
That is prepostorous... The US does not back the entire Israeli army...
Yes they use a lot of the same equipment NOW.... But they still need to buy it, just like how the US buys it from companies like Lockheed martin.
And In the Arab vs Israel war in 1948, there was not technological advantage... Sheer training and determination for victory is what won them that war. They went from 28,000 troops to 108,000 troops in less than a year, with trainging... No "green" noobs here.
On November 02 2011 01:17 B00ts wrote: I'd just like to point out... The fact that Israel is backed by the US is not the main reason they have won every war they have been a part of. They have the most highly trained armed forces in the world, the second "most deadliest" martial art in the world (second only to shaolin kung-fu), have mandatory military service(is this still true?.. Might not be anymore), and the terrain heavily favors defending it.
In fact that last time Israel was in a major conflict, the western powers had to figuratively beg them not to push into Egypt and Syria and take their capitols. (It actually might not have been the 'last' conflict... But one of the wars with egypt/syria.
Totally wrong. Egyptian and Syrian military was a joke at that time. ANYONE could have beaten them. The last time they tried something fishy, they had to retreat after realizing they were heading to a bloodbath.
Your logic astounds me good sir. Just because your enemy is terrible, does not mean you cannot be among the best trained armies in the world. Just because anyone could have beaten them, does not mean Israel does not have one of the best trained forces in the world.
Ask any knowledgeable person on Israel, or military history if you do not believe me... The Israeli army, while perhaps not too large, is a beast.
I used to date a girl that was on the IDF.
With your logic, I should be able to state that the Argentine Airforce is top tier because we sank a shitload of british ships during the falklands.
Srsly. Israel likes picking fights with the weak kids of the block. They retreated from lebanon after unacceptable losses. (around 700).
You could just as well look at it from another perspective in which Hamas/Terrorists continually pick fights against Israel instead. They only respond in retaliation.
48 hours within the announcing of Israel's existence = instantly 6 Arab nations fought against the Frees people of Israel...
On November 02 2011 01:32 Krehlmar wrote: Stop bending reality, Israel zionists were the first to use suicide bombers against the british when they ruled palestine. There is no "good" and "evil" side here.
After the war, Bernadotte was unanimously chosen to be the United Nations Security Council mediator in the Arab-Israeli conflict of 1947-1948. He was assassinated in Jerusalem in 1948 by the militant Zionist group Lehi while pursuing his official duties. The decision to assassinate him was made by Natan Yellin-Mor, Yisrael Eldad and Yitzhak Shamir, who was later to become Prime Minister of Israel.
On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote: uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis?
It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly.
sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious.
The super abridged version?
Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite.
Strange how everyone linking that image somehow forget to link this one as well:
Even stranger, I don't see worldwide protests, propaganda or wars against Jordan, neither well-funded terrorist organizations with the express purpose of driving the Jordanians into the sea.
I can only guess at the undertones of such actions against Israel.
Besides, this thread isn't about Israel bashing, but the reasons Palestine wants to become a state, and the consequences of it. So I kindly ask you to take your alarmist, simplistic propaganda somewhere else.
I can't quite understand the Palestinian motivation. What do they hope to gain with becoming a state? They would only lose all the advantages of playing underdog to Israel, like the lack of accountability or the massive humanitarian aid. Sooner or later, it would also mean the dismantling of the terrorist wings of Hamas, which they were quite unwilling to do so far. Has someone in the leadership realized the status quo leads to nowhere? I doubt it. I share Victoria Nuland's view that it was indeed premature, Palestine still has a lot things to fix.
On the other hand, if the US really pulls the plug, it can mean one less useless or outright dangerous UN agency. Should the Palestinians continue this way, it could mean a massive defunding of the UN, so at least there would be some use of this entire charade. (Again, take the argument to another thread or PMs if you disagree about my views on the UN)
On November 02 2011 01:17 B00ts wrote: I'd just like to point out... The fact that Israel is backed by the US is not the main reason they have won every war they have been a part of. They have the most highly trained armed forces in the world, the second "most deadliest" martial art in the world (second only to shaolin kung-fu), have mandatory military service(is this still true?.. Might not be anymore), and the terrain heavily favors defending it.
In fact that last time Israel was in a major conflict, the western powers had to figuratively beg them not to push into Egypt and Syria and take their capitols. (It actually might not have been the 'last' conflict... But one of the wars with egypt/syria.
Totally wrong. Egyptian and Syrian military was a joke at that time. ANYONE could have beaten them. The last time they tried something fishy, they had to retreat after realizing they were heading to a bloodbath.
Your logic astounds me good sir. Just because your enemy is terrible, does not mean you cannot be among the best trained armies in the world. Just because anyone could have beaten them, does not mean Israel does not have one of the best trained forces in the world.
Ask any knowledgeable person on Israel, or military history if you do not believe me... The Israeli army, while perhaps not too large, is a beast.
I used to date a girl that was on the IDF.
With your logic, I should be able to state that the Argentine Airforce is top tier because we sank a shitload of british ships during the falklands.
Srsly. Israel likes picking fights with the weak kids of the block. They retreated from lebanon after unacceptable losses. (around 700).
Israel has never started a conflict afaik... And no, that isn't how my logic, or logic in general works... That would be a straw-man.
Google highly trained armed forces, or best trained military, etc... Tell me what you find. And the argentina thing is one battle... seriously I'm referencing the entire existence of the IDF and Israel as a recognized state.... Comparing the two is just ridiculous.
EDIT: Oh and just FYI, my doctor was a Major during the second major war, as a doctor. When those guys were brutally injured, they didn't cry for their mothers, they cried because they could no longer serve. True story.
On November 02 2011 00:44 konadora wrote: uh, what kind of stupid law is that that forces a government to cut financial ties to a global organisation because of one country? on what basis?
It would be from their relation with Israel almost certainly.
sorry i'm not really into politics, but what was the relation between the US, israel and palestine? genuinely curious.
The super abridged version?
Israel and Palestine don't like eachother. Israel used to be small, Palestine used to be big. Now it's the opposite.
Check out this picture
Make sense?
holy... how on earth did that even happen and no one raised the issue over the course of decades?
Because... up until 1967, although the land was previously called Palestine (by the othmanians and the British), there were no real Palestinians, or a Palestinian state. The green territory that you see on the second from the left picture, is the territory that was given to the arabs by the UN, and the white to the jews, the jews were happy with what they got, however, the arabs did not, and a day after Israel declared independance, Egypt, Syria, Lebannon and Jordan attacked Israel. And lost. And so, Israel conquered territory from all of them and got to the second from right picture, now, up to this point, there was still no Palestinian pepole or a Palestinian state. In 1967, once again, the arab states planned to attack Israel, however, this time Israel launched a preemptive counterattack, and conquered territory from all of these countries (the lands now known as the gaza strip and the west bank were owned by Egypt and Jordan, respectively), not only that, but Israel also conquered the Sinai peninsula (a territory twice as big as today's Israel), only to give it back to Egypt for a peace agreement. It is pretty much at this point that the "Palestinians" were created as a distinct group, up until than they were just arabs who lived on the territory known as Palestine.
Now, I don't think that the governmant should keep most of the territory conquered, however, we just can't risk having terrorists getting even closer to our cities.
I like how you completely leave out the civil war that preceded the 1948 war. How hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs were driven from their homes etc. I guess as long as you leave out some parts of history and only look at the other parts in an Israeli light then it is possible to have a favorable view of Israeli foreign policy.
On November 02 2011 01:35 andycz wrote: lol antisemitists. you guys are cute, especially the fact that you don't know shit about the situation.
Actually I friends living in Israel who then moved out because the right wing fundamentalists are turning way to racist for any moderate westerner. And I've written over 200 pages of research on the subject so yes I got quite a nice "shit" about the situation.
Putting your head in the sand and shouting "ANTISEMIT RACISTS!" to anyone who doesn't agree with you is a great way of making the world dislike you. There is a reason less and less people (Except the corrupt and failing american system) care anymore.
On November 02 2011 01:17 B00ts wrote: I'd just like to point out... The fact that Israel is backed by the US is not the main reason they have won every war they have been a part of. They have the most highly trained armed forces in the world, the second "most deadliest" martial art in the world (second only to shaolin kung-fu), have mandatory military service(is this still true?.. Might not be anymore), and the terrain heavily favors defending it.
In fact that last time Israel was in a major conflict, the western powers had to figuratively beg them not to push into Egypt and Syria and take their capitols. (It actually might not have been the 'last' conflict... But one of the wars with egypt/syria.
And the fact that their entire military is backed by the US and all their funding is from the US and all their military development is funded by the US so yeah they only won because they're backed by the US. Nor do they have the most highly trained in the world by any measure, though this depends on what you mean.
On November 02 2011 01:06 Nash wrote: Yay another anti-semitic thread on TL. Let the jew-bashing proceed!
Dont be childish. No one is bashing Jews, people are just discussing what happened (Both in the last weeks and last century)
This.
Also, the US policies baffle me sometimes (a lot if I'm honest)
On November 02 2011 01:11 RageBot wrote: Now, I don't think that the governmant should keep most of the territory conquered, however, we just can't risk having terrorists getting even closer to our cities.
Catch-22 isn't it? Would the "terrorists" exist if they didn't perceive Israel to be stealing their land? Its a touchy and emotive subject. In South Africa years ago, the ANC were considered terrorists even though they were fighting for their rights as oppressed people. What makes what the Palestinians are doing different? One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I don't say this out of any disrespect to people who have had losses of those near and dear to them, merely to point out the other side of the story.
Yes, they will exist. Or do you think that every other terrorist attack in history was because of Israel? Or things like what happened in Denmark/France after that cartoonist drew Mohammad?
They are not Freedom Fighters, they run from the military and aim solely for citizen targets, they are the exact opposits of Freedom Fighters. Not to mention that most of the money that Hamas gets for it's citizens is spent on military weapons and ammunition.
Stop bending reality, Israel zionists were the first to use suicide bombers against the british when they ruled palestine. There is no "good" and "evil" side here.
No, it wasn't "Israel Zionists", it was "The Irgun", and they weren't "suicide bombers", they were just "terrorists", and, unlike terrorists among the Palestinians, they were hunted by the majority of the Jewish forces before Israel existed, and were outlawed and dismantled by the IDF. Now, the way Hamas and the Palestinians treat their Terrorists is completely different, did you see the parties thay had after Israel released their captives? Terrorists who killed old men, women and little children? Men who only fight for Allah to be Shahids, and don't care about their pepole? TV shows in which they teach children to kill Jews?
Are you aware that one of the reasons there are so many Palestinian casualties during war is because Hamas uses them as meat shields?
EPT![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pEfVJ93Cwa8/TDjQIyH5mGI/AAAAAAAAGmk/EA9TbmokMRE/s1600/israel-palestine-map.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.wryandginger.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/sand-people-tuskenraider.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WM9YT.png)
