The Palestinians say construction in that territory would kill any hope for establishing a viable state of Palestine. Successive U.S. governments have agreed, and under intense American pressure, Israel has avoided building settlements in the area. It has, however, developed roads and infrastructure and built a police station.
if they are correct (and they probably are) than the Palestinian Arabs might have just flushed their dreams of statehood down the toilet. I wonder if Israel will go through with it...
Wow.. how dramatic.
Honestly - settlements don't bother me. They are annoying, and I see them as completely unnecessary and Israel's way of sending a message, but at the end of the day Israel has shown it is more than willing to uproot settlements in exchange for peace. Anyone that believes the settlement issue is the barrier to peace is a little misguided. All this huff and puff about extra settlements and not enough commitment to real efforts at negotiation. Why dance around each other (Palestine at the UN, Israel with their settlements)?
I guess offering peace treaties in the past has never worked...
Yes, ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top shouldn't bother anyone - a minor annoyance at best, right? The entire conflict in Israel is the "settlement issue," stating otherwise makes you sound uninformed and you'd be wise to keep your totally inapt comments to yourself.
Whoa. Anyone else find it hilarious when you try call someone inept but get the spelling all wrong? Kind of ironic.
Please, please, please show me this whole, "ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top." The fact that you think the "entire conflict" in Israel is the settlement issue demonstrates how grossly uneducated you are. Do you know when the settlements came into existence? Do you know that there was a conflict before settlements existed and there will continue to be conflict afterwards? Do you know what happened in 2005? The settlements are a distraction that can be easily remedied when faced with REAL peace offerings. Israel has shown that they are willing to exchange land for peace, settlements or no settlements. That is the point I am trying to make. Everyone gets so pissed off over these settlements when all they are is an excuse to avoid negotiations. Do I think the settlements should be there? Absolutely not. Do I think this is a barrier to peace? Absolutely not.
I find it more ironic when someone calls you out for misspelling a word you weren't trying to use.
This post is pretty much an attack on me. Do I know this, do I know that? Do you know? You haven't offered a shred of substance with this defamatory post. Instead of me backing up my posts, as I have several times in this thread, for once I'm going to ask you to backup yours. Good luck though, as I think we both know, you're going to have a hard time.
Sorry about the first line; I misread your sentence
It's not an attack. I don't understand why people can't have a discussion about the issues without everyone believe their fundamental beliefs are being attacked. I'm sorry if it came across as aggressive, it was not intended to be that way, I just genuinely question how educated you are on the topic when you claim that the settlements are the entire issue in the conflict. I was trying to illustrate that the settlements have only been an issue since 1967. I am honestly curious if you understand that there was a deep conflict prior to the settlements, and there will continue to be a conflict even if the settlement issue is resolved. This was shown in a real life example in Gaza - no theorycrafting, no supposition, REAL LIFE. Israel DISMANTLED settlements unilaterally and gave back land - was the conflict resolved? No. Some may argue it got worse.
The settlements do not represent a barrier to peace, because I believe Israel would be MORE than willing to negotiate them away in a meaningful peace treaty. If Israeli immediately stopped building settlements, do you think there would be peace? If they dismantled them all even? I highly doubt it.
It is obvious that building settlements is not the only issue. But that doesn't remove it as one of the factors in the whole conflict. Israel also refuses to a recognize a Palestinian state as per the 1947 UN resolution 181. Israel asks to be recognized as a state but doesn't have the decency to recognize a Palestinian state.
Below are few snippets on a fairly balanced article from a generally right-of-center newspaper here in Canada.
The Palestinian leader went to great lengths in his speech Friday to assure people he is not seeking to challenge Israel’s legitimacy."
It also relies on 1947 UN Resolution 181 that called for the partition of Palestine into “independent Arab and Jewish states” (and the internationalization of Jerusalem). Israel cited the resolution when declaring its state in 1948. Now, the PA is taking up the proposal of being the Arab state – on considerably less land than the UN resolution had proposed.
Why does Israel object?
Israel has always wanted to ensure that a Palestinian state be carefully circumscribed – demilitarized, for example, with certain parts hosting Israeli or foreign military observers. Such limitations of sovereignty can be done through negotiations better than through a unilateral declaration of statehood. Israel also worries that a vote on Palestinian membership may increase Israel’s isolation, and result in the downgrading of relations with countries that vote for Palestine. It is concerned, too, that a successful bid may allow Palestine to use UN institutions, such as the International Criminal Court, to launch legal attacks on Israel. It fears the end of a process of negotiations and an acceleration of the international campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions to delegitimize Israel.
This is what irks me.
The Israeli PM keeps talking about security, but doesn't realize that stoking the flames of discontent is itself giving birth to Hamas supporters! Again, acting like a big, hypocritical jerk does tend to isolate you. Israel doesn't have to worry about the ICC with US support. Did any charges of worth against the US make it to the ICC?
Negotiations were going nowhere without a declaration of statehood. Just outright demanding recognition without giving recognition.
The Palestinians say construction in that territory would kill any hope for establishing a viable state of Palestine. Successive U.S. governments have agreed, and under intense American pressure, Israel has avoided building settlements in the area. It has, however, developed roads and infrastructure and built a police station.
if they are correct (and they probably are) than the Palestinian Arabs might have just flushed their dreams of statehood down the toilet. I wonder if Israel will go through with it...
Wow.. how dramatic.
Honestly - settlements don't bother me. They are annoying, and I see them as completely unnecessary and Israel's way of sending a message, but at the end of the day Israel has shown it is more than willing to uproot settlements in exchange for peace. Anyone that believes the settlement issue is the barrier to peace is a little misguided. All this huff and puff about extra settlements and not enough commitment to real efforts at negotiation. Why dance around each other (Palestine at the UN, Israel with their settlements)?
I guess offering peace treaties in the past has never worked...
Yes, ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top shouldn't bother anyone - a minor annoyance at best, right? The entire conflict in Israel is the "settlement issue," stating otherwise makes you sound uninformed and you'd be wise to keep your totally inapt comments to yourself.
Whoa. Anyone else find it hilarious when you try call someone inept but get the spelling all wrong? Kind of ironic.
Please, please, please show me this whole, "ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top." The fact that you think the "entire conflict" in Israel is the settlement issue demonstrates how grossly uneducated you are. Do you know when the settlements came into existence? Do you know that there was a conflict before settlements existed and there will continue to be conflict afterwards? Do you know what happened in 2005? The settlements are a distraction that can be easily remedied when faced with REAL peace offerings. Israel has shown that they are willing to exchange land for peace, settlements or no settlements. That is the point I am trying to make. Everyone gets so pissed off over these settlements when all they are is an excuse to avoid negotiations. Do I think the settlements should be there? Absolutely not. Do I think this is a barrier to peace? Absolutely not.
I find it more ironic when someone calls you out for misspelling a word you weren't trying to use.
This post is pretty much an attack on me. Do I know this, do I know that? Do you know? You haven't offered a shred of substance with this defamatory post. Instead of me backing up my posts, as I have several times in this thread, for once I'm going to ask you to backup yours. Good luck though, as I think we both know, you're going to have a hard time.
Sorry about the first line; I misread your sentence
It's not an attack. I don't understand why people can't have a discussion about the issues without everyone believe their fundamental beliefs are being attacked. I'm sorry if it came across as aggressive, it was not intended to be that way, I just genuinely question how educated you are on the topic when you claim that the settlements are the entire issue in the conflict. I was trying to illustrate that the settlements have only been an issue since 1967. I am honestly curious if you understand that there was a deep conflict prior to the settlements, and there will continue to be a conflict even if the settlement issue is resolved. This was shown in a real life example in Gaza - no theorycrafting, no supposition, REAL LIFE. Israel DISMANTLED settlements unilaterally and gave back land - was the conflict resolved? No. Some may argue it got worse.
The settlements do not represent a barrier to peace, because I believe Israel would be MORE than willing to negotiate them away in a meaningful peace treaty. If Israeli immediately stopped building settlements, do you think there would be peace? If they dismantled them all even? I highly doubt it.
When your post is merely to discredit character, rather than to genuinely educate, it is an attack.
Again, you come from a superior position, as if questioning my knowledge somehow proves that you have some? You haven't given me a smidgen of evidence towards anything you've stated, and I'm tired of debating character snipers.
Haha ok i tried twice now. Either you can't read or you have no idea what is going on because i pretty clearly stated evidence, facts - EVEN A DATE! Crazy I know.
More importantly though I asked you a series of questions, not because I want to appear superior, but because I want to hear your opinion on the issue beyond meaningless rhetoric? So I know you may not have an educated opinion on the issue, I understand that may be a consideration, but instead of avoiding the questions, why don't you try answer them?
Let's go back to the beginning: Why do you believe settlements are the "entire" conflict?
This entire post is bizarre to me. You've written quite a bit, but you've actually said nothing, let alone prove something.
The Palestinians say construction in that territory would kill any hope for establishing a viable state of Palestine. Successive U.S. governments have agreed, and under intense American pressure, Israel has avoided building settlements in the area. It has, however, developed roads and infrastructure and built a police station.
if they are correct (and they probably are) than the Palestinian Arabs might have just flushed their dreams of statehood down the toilet. I wonder if Israel will go through with it...
Wow.. how dramatic.
Honestly - settlements don't bother me. They are annoying, and I see them as completely unnecessary and Israel's way of sending a message, but at the end of the day Israel has shown it is more than willing to uproot settlements in exchange for peace. Anyone that believes the settlement issue is the barrier to peace is a little misguided. All this huff and puff about extra settlements and not enough commitment to real efforts at negotiation. Why dance around each other (Palestine at the UN, Israel with their settlements)?
I guess offering peace treaties in the past has never worked...
Yes, ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top shouldn't bother anyone - a minor annoyance at best, right? The entire conflict in Israel is the "settlement issue," stating otherwise makes you sound uninformed and you'd be wise to keep your totally inapt comments to yourself.
Whoa. Anyone else find it hilarious when you try call someone inept but get the spelling all wrong? Kind of ironic.
Please, please, please show me this whole, "ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top." The fact that you think the "entire conflict" in Israel is the settlement issue demonstrates how grossly uneducated you are. Do you know when the settlements came into existence? Do you know that there was a conflict before settlements existed and there will continue to be conflict afterwards? Do you know what happened in 2005? The settlements are a distraction that can be easily remedied when faced with REAL peace offerings. Israel has shown that they are willing to exchange land for peace, settlements or no settlements. That is the point I am trying to make. Everyone gets so pissed off over these settlements when all they are is an excuse to avoid negotiations. Do I think the settlements should be there? Absolutely not. Do I think this is a barrier to peace? Absolutely not.
I find it more ironic when someone calls you out for misspelling a word you weren't trying to use.
This post is pretty much an attack on me. Do I know this, do I know that? Do you know? You haven't offered a shred of substance with this defamatory post. Instead of me backing up my posts, as I have several times in this thread, for once I'm going to ask you to backup yours. Good luck though, as I think we both know, you're going to have a hard time.
Sorry about the first line; I misread your sentence
It's not an attack. I don't understand why people can't have a discussion about the issues without everyone believe their fundamental beliefs are being attacked. I'm sorry if it came across as aggressive, it was not intended to be that way, I just genuinely question how educated you are on the topic when you claim that the settlements are the entire issue in the conflict. I was trying to illustrate that the settlements have only been an issue since 1967. I am honestly curious if you understand that there was a deep conflict prior to the settlements, and there will continue to be a conflict even if the settlement issue is resolved. This was shown in a real life example in Gaza - no theorycrafting, no supposition, REAL LIFE. Israel DISMANTLED settlements unilaterally and gave back land - was the conflict resolved? No. Some may argue it got worse.
The settlements do not represent a barrier to peace, because I believe Israel would be MORE than willing to negotiate them away in a meaningful peace treaty. If Israeli immediately stopped building settlements, do you think there would be peace? If they dismantled them all even? I highly doubt it.
It is obvious that building settlements is not the only issue. But that doesn't remove it as one of the factors in the whole conflict. Israel also refuses to a recognize a Palestinian state as per the 1947 UN resolution 181. Israel asks to be recognized as a state but doesn't have the decency to recognize a Palestinian state.
Below are few snippets on a fairly balanced article from a generally right-of-center newspaper here in Canada.
It also relies on 1947 UN Resolution 181 that called for the partition of Palestine into “independent Arab and Jewish states” (and the internationalization of Jerusalem). Israel cited the resolution when declaring its state in 1948. Now, the PA is taking up the proposal of being the Arab state – on considerably less land than the UN resolution had proposed.
Israel has always wanted to ensure that a Palestinian state be carefully circumscribed – demilitarized, for example, with certain parts hosting Israeli or foreign military observers. Such limitations of sovereignty can be done through negotiations better than through a unilateral declaration of statehood. Israel also worries that a vote on Palestinian membership may increase Israel’s isolation, and result in the downgrading of relations with countries that vote for Palestine. It is concerned, too, that a successful bid may allow Palestine to use UN institutions, such as the International Criminal Court, to launch legal attacks on Israel. It fears the end of a process of negotiations and an acceleration of the international campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions to delegitimize Israel.
This is what irks me.
The Israeli PM keeps talking about security, but doesn't realize that stoking the flames of discontent is itself giving birth to Hamas supporters! Again, acting like a big, hypocritical jerk does tend to isolate you. Israel doesn't have to worry about the ICC with US support. Did any charges of worth against the US make it to the ICC?
Negotiations were going nowhere without a declaration of statehood. Just outright demanding recognition without giving recognition.
But the PLO declared statehood in 1987 and that did very little to change the course of events. It just sparked more tension. I think your pretty off mark when you state Israel refuses to recognise a Palestinian state. It's more like Israel refuses to recognise a unilaterally declared Palestinian state that isn't borne out of peaceful negotiations. The official position of Israel has always been a recognition of the 1947 agreement with some minor concessions for security. I look at the 2000 negotiations for example at Camp David and it boggles my mind how there was no peace agreement out of those talks. I've read a strong pro-Israeli perspective on what happened there but i'd love to hear if anyone knows what went on from a neutral/Palestinian perspective?
The Palestinians say construction in that territory would kill any hope for establishing a viable state of Palestine. Successive U.S. governments have agreed, and under intense American pressure, Israel has avoided building settlements in the area. It has, however, developed roads and infrastructure and built a police station.
if they are correct (and they probably are) than the Palestinian Arabs might have just flushed their dreams of statehood down the toilet. I wonder if Israel will go through with it...
Wow.. how dramatic.
Honestly - settlements don't bother me. They are annoying, and I see them as completely unnecessary and Israel's way of sending a message, but at the end of the day Israel has shown it is more than willing to uproot settlements in exchange for peace. Anyone that believes the settlement issue is the barrier to peace is a little misguided. All this huff and puff about extra settlements and not enough commitment to real efforts at negotiation. Why dance around each other (Palestine at the UN, Israel with their settlements)?
I guess offering peace treaties in the past has never worked...
Yes, ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top shouldn't bother anyone - a minor annoyance at best, right? The entire conflict in Israel is the "settlement issue," stating otherwise makes you sound uninformed and you'd be wise to keep your totally inapt comments to yourself.
Whoa. Anyone else find it hilarious when you try call someone inept but get the spelling all wrong? Kind of ironic.
Please, please, please show me this whole, "ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top." The fact that you think the "entire conflict" in Israel is the settlement issue demonstrates how grossly uneducated you are. Do you know when the settlements came into existence? Do you know that there was a conflict before settlements existed and there will continue to be conflict afterwards? Do you know what happened in 2005? The settlements are a distraction that can be easily remedied when faced with REAL peace offerings. Israel has shown that they are willing to exchange land for peace, settlements or no settlements. That is the point I am trying to make. Everyone gets so pissed off over these settlements when all they are is an excuse to avoid negotiations. Do I think the settlements should be there? Absolutely not. Do I think this is a barrier to peace? Absolutely not.
I find it more ironic when someone calls you out for misspelling a word you weren't trying to use.
This post is pretty much an attack on me. Do I know this, do I know that? Do you know? You haven't offered a shred of substance with this defamatory post. Instead of me backing up my posts, as I have several times in this thread, for once I'm going to ask you to backup yours. Good luck though, as I think we both know, you're going to have a hard time.
Sorry about the first line; I misread your sentence
It's not an attack. I don't understand why people can't have a discussion about the issues without everyone believe their fundamental beliefs are being attacked. I'm sorry if it came across as aggressive, it was not intended to be that way, I just genuinely question how educated you are on the topic when you claim that the settlements are the entire issue in the conflict. I was trying to illustrate that the settlements have only been an issue since 1967. I am honestly curious if you understand that there was a deep conflict prior to the settlements, and there will continue to be a conflict even if the settlement issue is resolved. This was shown in a real life example in Gaza - no theorycrafting, no supposition, REAL LIFE. Israel DISMANTLED settlements unilaterally and gave back land - was the conflict resolved? No. Some may argue it got worse.
The settlements do not represent a barrier to peace, because I believe Israel would be MORE than willing to negotiate them away in a meaningful peace treaty. If Israeli immediately stopped building settlements, do you think there would be peace? If they dismantled them all even? I highly doubt it.
It is obvious that building settlements is not the only issue. But that doesn't remove it as one of the factors in the whole conflict. Israel also refuses to a recognize a Palestinian state as per the 1947 UN resolution 181. Israel asks to be recognized as a state but doesn't have the decency to recognize a Palestinian state.
Below are few snippets on a fairly balanced article from a generally right-of-center newspaper here in Canada.
The Palestinian leader went to great lengths in his speech Friday to assure people he is not seeking to challenge Israel’s legitimacy."
It also relies on 1947 UN Resolution 181 that called for the partition of Palestine into “independent Arab and Jewish states” (and the internationalization of Jerusalem). Israel cited the resolution when declaring its state in 1948. Now, the PA is taking up the proposal of being the Arab state – on considerably less land than the UN resolution had proposed.
Why does Israel object?
Israel has always wanted to ensure that a Palestinian state be carefully circumscribed – demilitarized, for example, with certain parts hosting Israeli or foreign military observers. Such limitations of sovereignty can be done through negotiations better than through a unilateral declaration of statehood. Israel also worries that a vote on Palestinian membership may increase Israel’s isolation, and result in the downgrading of relations with countries that vote for Palestine. It is concerned, too, that a successful bid may allow Palestine to use UN institutions, such as the International Criminal Court, to launch legal attacks on Israel. It fears the end of a process of negotiations and an acceleration of the international campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions to delegitimize Israel.
This is what irks me.
The Israeli PM keeps talking about security, but doesn't realize that stoking the flames of discontent is itself giving birth to Hamas supporters! Again, acting like a big, hypocritical jerk does tend to isolate you. Israel doesn't have to worry about the ICC with US support. Did any charges of worth against the US make it to the ICC?
Negotiations were going nowhere without a declaration of statehood. Just outright demanding recognition without giving recognition.
But the PLO declared statehood in 1987 and that did very little to change the course of events. It just sparked more tension. I think your pretty off mark when you state Israel refuses to recognise a Palestinian state. It's more like Israel refuses to recognise a unilaterally declared Palestinian state that isn't borne out of peaceful negotiations. The official position of Israel has always been a recognition of the 1947 agreement with some minor concessions for security. I look at the 2000 negotiations for example at Camp David and it boggles my mind how there was no peace agreement out of those talks. I've read a strong pro-Israeli perspective on what happened there but i'd love to hear if anyone knows what went on from a neutral/Palestinian perspective?
The fact that Israel did not recognize 1987 declaration doesn't mean that the declaration of statehood was the problem.
Israel refuses to budge on negotiations and then faults Palestine for seeking ways (peacefully, in the UN) of achieving legitimacy for itself. Really, announcing settlements when Palestine made a peaceful move in the UN is a dick move. Given the region's history on both sides for violence, the fact that the Abbas took a peaceful measure is to be applauded.
Ultimately, Israel and Palestine should declare simultaneous recognition of each other. Palestine is willing. As far as Abbas is concerned, he will not challenge Israel's legitimacy. Nettanyahu needs to do the same for Palestine.
The Palestinians say construction in that territory would kill any hope for establishing a viable state of Palestine. Successive U.S. governments have agreed, and under intense American pressure, Israel has avoided building settlements in the area. It has, however, developed roads and infrastructure and built a police station.
if they are correct (and they probably are) than the Palestinian Arabs might have just flushed their dreams of statehood down the toilet. I wonder if Israel will go through with it...
Wow.. how dramatic.
Honestly - settlements don't bother me. They are annoying, and I see them as completely unnecessary and Israel's way of sending a message, but at the end of the day Israel has shown it is more than willing to uproot settlements in exchange for peace. Anyone that believes the settlement issue is the barrier to peace is a little misguided. All this huff and puff about extra settlements and not enough commitment to real efforts at negotiation. Why dance around each other (Palestine at the UN, Israel with their settlements)?
I guess offering peace treaties in the past has never worked...
Yes, ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top shouldn't bother anyone - a minor annoyance at best, right? The entire conflict in Israel is the "settlement issue," stating otherwise makes you sound uninformed and you'd be wise to keep your totally inapt comments to yourself.
Whoa. Anyone else find it hilarious when you try call someone inept but get the spelling all wrong? Kind of ironic.
Please, please, please show me this whole, "ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top." The fact that you think the "entire conflict" in Israel is the settlement issue demonstrates how grossly uneducated you are. Do you know when the settlements came into existence? Do you know that there was a conflict before settlements existed and there will continue to be conflict afterwards? Do you know what happened in 2005? The settlements are a distraction that can be easily remedied when faced with REAL peace offerings. Israel has shown that they are willing to exchange land for peace, settlements or no settlements. That is the point I am trying to make. Everyone gets so pissed off over these settlements when all they are is an excuse to avoid negotiations. Do I think the settlements should be there? Absolutely not. Do I think this is a barrier to peace? Absolutely not.
I find it more ironic when someone calls you out for misspelling a word you weren't trying to use.
This post is pretty much an attack on me. Do I know this, do I know that? Do you know? You haven't offered a shred of substance with this defamatory post. Instead of me backing up my posts, as I have several times in this thread, for once I'm going to ask you to backup yours. Good luck though, as I think we both know, you're going to have a hard time.
Sorry about the first line; I misread your sentence
It's not an attack. I don't understand why people can't have a discussion about the issues without everyone believe their fundamental beliefs are being attacked. I'm sorry if it came across as aggressive, it was not intended to be that way, I just genuinely question how educated you are on the topic when you claim that the settlements are the entire issue in the conflict. I was trying to illustrate that the settlements have only been an issue since 1967. I am honestly curious if you understand that there was a deep conflict prior to the settlements, and there will continue to be a conflict even if the settlement issue is resolved. This was shown in a real life example in Gaza - no theorycrafting, no supposition, REAL LIFE. Israel DISMANTLED settlements unilaterally and gave back land - was the conflict resolved? No. Some may argue it got worse.
The settlements do not represent a barrier to peace, because I believe Israel would be MORE than willing to negotiate them away in a meaningful peace treaty. If Israeli immediately stopped building settlements, do you think there would be peace? If they dismantled them all even? I highly doubt it.
It is obvious that building settlements is not the only issue. But that doesn't remove it as one of the factors in the whole conflict. Israel also refuses to a recognize a Palestinian state as per the 1947 UN resolution 181. Israel asks to be recognized as a state but doesn't have the decency to recognize a Palestinian state.
Below are few snippets on a fairly balanced article from a generally right-of-center newspaper here in Canada.
The Palestinian leader went to great lengths in his speech Friday to assure people he is not seeking to challenge Israel’s legitimacy."
It also relies on 1947 UN Resolution 181 that called for the partition of Palestine into “independent Arab and Jewish states” (and the internationalization of Jerusalem). Israel cited the resolution when declaring its state in 1948. Now, the PA is taking up the proposal of being the Arab state – on considerably less land than the UN resolution had proposed.
Why does Israel object?
Israel has always wanted to ensure that a Palestinian state be carefully circumscribed – demilitarized, for example, with certain parts hosting Israeli or foreign military observers. Such limitations of sovereignty can be done through negotiations better than through a unilateral declaration of statehood. Israel also worries that a vote on Palestinian membership may increase Israel’s isolation, and result in the downgrading of relations with countries that vote for Palestine. It is concerned, too, that a successful bid may allow Palestine to use UN institutions, such as the International Criminal Court, to launch legal attacks on Israel. It fears the end of a process of negotiations and an acceleration of the international campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions to delegitimize Israel.
This is what irks me.
The Israeli PM keeps talking about security, but doesn't realize that stoking the flames of discontent is itself giving birth to Hamas supporters! Again, acting like a big, hypocritical jerk does tend to isolate you. Israel doesn't have to worry about the ICC with US support. Did any charges of worth against the US make it to the ICC?
Negotiations were going nowhere without a declaration of statehood. Just outright demanding recognition without giving recognition.
But the PLO declared statehood in 1987 and that did very little to change the course of events. It just sparked more tension. I think your pretty off mark when you state Israel refuses to recognise a Palestinian state. It's more like Israel refuses to recognise a unilaterally declared Palestinian state that isn't borne out of peaceful negotiations. The official position of Israel has always been a recognition of the 1947 agreement with some minor concessions for security. I look at the 2000 negotiations for example at Camp David and it boggles my mind how there was no peace agreement out of those talks. I've read a strong pro-Israeli perspective on what happened there but i'd love to hear if anyone knows what went on from a neutral/Palestinian perspective?
The fact that Israel did not recognize 1987 declaration doesn't mean that the declaration of statehood was the problem.
Israel refuses to budge on negotiations and then faults Palestine for seeking ways (peacefully, in the UN) of achieving legitimacy for itself. Really, announcing settlements when Palestine made a peaceful move in the UN is a dick move. Given the region's history on both sides for violence, the fact that the Abbas took a peaceful measure is to be applauded.
Ultimately, Israel and Palestine should declare simultaneous recognition of each other. Palestine is willing. As far as Abbas is concerned, he will not challenge Israel's legitimacy. Nettanyahu needs to do the same for Palestine.
Definitely agree with you on the peaceful route as opposed to other options; but doesn't it strike you as odd that we are "impressed" when the peaceful option is chosen. Pretty disturbing.
I'm still not exactly sure what you want Bibi to do - so let's assume he says "Ok fine you guys are a state" - then what? There is no way any concession of land is going to be made without guarantees of peace and security. And those guarantees are NEVER going to be taken seriously if Hamas is in control of anything. So i'm not sure on the way forward
edit: lol just noticed your username haha - is that genuinely PLO Gamer? Or a satirical spin on "progamer"
if they are correct (and they probably are) than the Palestinian Arabs might have just flushed their dreams of statehood down the toilet. I wonder if Israel will go through with it...
Wow.. how dramatic.
Honestly - settlements don't bother me. They are annoying, and I see them as completely unnecessary and Israel's way of sending a message, but at the end of the day Israel has shown it is more than willing to uproot settlements in exchange for peace. Anyone that believes the settlement issue is the barrier to peace is a little misguided. All this huff and puff about extra settlements and not enough commitment to real efforts at negotiation. Why dance around each other (Palestine at the UN, Israel with their settlements)?
I guess offering peace treaties in the past has never worked...
Yes, ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top shouldn't bother anyone - a minor annoyance at best, right? The entire conflict in Israel is the "settlement issue," stating otherwise makes you sound uninformed and you'd be wise to keep your totally inapt comments to yourself.
Whoa. Anyone else find it hilarious when you try call someone inept but get the spelling all wrong? Kind of ironic.
Please, please, please show me this whole, "ripping down peoples homes and building your own on top." The fact that you think the "entire conflict" in Israel is the settlement issue demonstrates how grossly uneducated you are. Do you know when the settlements came into existence? Do you know that there was a conflict before settlements existed and there will continue to be conflict afterwards? Do you know what happened in 2005? The settlements are a distraction that can be easily remedied when faced with REAL peace offerings. Israel has shown that they are willing to exchange land for peace, settlements or no settlements. That is the point I am trying to make. Everyone gets so pissed off over these settlements when all they are is an excuse to avoid negotiations. Do I think the settlements should be there? Absolutely not. Do I think this is a barrier to peace? Absolutely not.
I find it more ironic when someone calls you out for misspelling a word you weren't trying to use.
This post is pretty much an attack on me. Do I know this, do I know that? Do you know? You haven't offered a shred of substance with this defamatory post. Instead of me backing up my posts, as I have several times in this thread, for once I'm going to ask you to backup yours. Good luck though, as I think we both know, you're going to have a hard time.
Sorry about the first line; I misread your sentence
It's not an attack. I don't understand why people can't have a discussion about the issues without everyone believe their fundamental beliefs are being attacked. I'm sorry if it came across as aggressive, it was not intended to be that way, I just genuinely question how educated you are on the topic when you claim that the settlements are the entire issue in the conflict. I was trying to illustrate that the settlements have only been an issue since 1967. I am honestly curious if you understand that there was a deep conflict prior to the settlements, and there will continue to be a conflict even if the settlement issue is resolved. This was shown in a real life example in Gaza - no theorycrafting, no supposition, REAL LIFE. Israel DISMANTLED settlements unilaterally and gave back land - was the conflict resolved? No. Some may argue it got worse.
The settlements do not represent a barrier to peace, because I believe Israel would be MORE than willing to negotiate them away in a meaningful peace treaty. If Israeli immediately stopped building settlements, do you think there would be peace? If they dismantled them all even? I highly doubt it.
It is obvious that building settlements is not the only issue. But that doesn't remove it as one of the factors in the whole conflict. Israel also refuses to a recognize a Palestinian state as per the 1947 UN resolution 181. Israel asks to be recognized as a state but doesn't have the decency to recognize a Palestinian state.
Below are few snippets on a fairly balanced article from a generally right-of-center newspaper here in Canada.
The Palestinian leader went to great lengths in his speech Friday to assure people he is not seeking to challenge Israel’s legitimacy."
It also relies on 1947 UN Resolution 181 that called for the partition of Palestine into “independent Arab and Jewish states” (and the internationalization of Jerusalem). Israel cited the resolution when declaring its state in 1948. Now, the PA is taking up the proposal of being the Arab state – on considerably less land than the UN resolution had proposed.
Why does Israel object?
Israel has always wanted to ensure that a Palestinian state be carefully circumscribed – demilitarized, for example, with certain parts hosting Israeli or foreign military observers. Such limitations of sovereignty can be done through negotiations better than through a unilateral declaration of statehood. Israel also worries that a vote on Palestinian membership may increase Israel’s isolation, and result in the downgrading of relations with countries that vote for Palestine. It is concerned, too, that a successful bid may allow Palestine to use UN institutions, such as the International Criminal Court, to launch legal attacks on Israel. It fears the end of a process of negotiations and an acceleration of the international campaign of boycotts, divestment and sanctions to delegitimize Israel.
This is what irks me.
The Israeli PM keeps talking about security, but doesn't realize that stoking the flames of discontent is itself giving birth to Hamas supporters! Again, acting like a big, hypocritical jerk does tend to isolate you. Israel doesn't have to worry about the ICC with US support. Did any charges of worth against the US make it to the ICC?
Negotiations were going nowhere without a declaration of statehood. Just outright demanding recognition without giving recognition.
But the PLO declared statehood in 1987 and that did very little to change the course of events. It just sparked more tension. I think your pretty off mark when you state Israel refuses to recognise a Palestinian state. It's more like Israel refuses to recognise a unilaterally declared Palestinian state that isn't borne out of peaceful negotiations. The official position of Israel has always been a recognition of the 1947 agreement with some minor concessions for security. I look at the 2000 negotiations for example at Camp David and it boggles my mind how there was no peace agreement out of those talks. I've read a strong pro-Israeli perspective on what happened there but i'd love to hear if anyone knows what went on from a neutral/Palestinian perspective?
The fact that Israel did not recognize 1987 declaration doesn't mean that the declaration of statehood was the problem.
Israel refuses to budge on negotiations and then faults Palestine for seeking ways (peacefully, in the UN) of achieving legitimacy for itself. Really, announcing settlements when Palestine made a peaceful move in the UN is a dick move. Given the region's history on both sides for violence, the fact that the Abbas took a peaceful measure is to be applauded.
Ultimately, Israel and Palestine should declare simultaneous recognition of each other. Palestine is willing. As far as Abbas is concerned, he will not challenge Israel's legitimacy. Nettanyahu needs to do the same for Palestine.
Definitely agree with you on the peaceful route as opposed to other options; but doesn't it strike you as odd that we are "impressed" when the peaceful option is chosen. Pretty disturbing.
I'm still not exactly sure what you want Bibi to do - so let's assume he says "Ok fine you guys are a state" - then what? There is no way any concession of land is going to be made without guarantees of peace and security. And those guarantees are NEVER going to be taken seriously if Hamas is in control of anything. So i'm not sure on the way forward
edit: lol just noticed your username haha - is that genuinely PLO Gamer? Or a satirical spin on "progamer"
It's a spin >.>;
And yes, I want Nettanyahu to acknowledge Palestine in order to promote peace and security! Israel can still strike tactically and assassinate terrorists if they recognize Palestine as a state. Yes, it would be violating sovereignty, but it would be acceptable then.
Israel needs to take a dual pronged approach of stick and carrot. Continue to strike terrorists while declawing the terrorists by taking away any legitimacy that terrorists can use to recruit members and support. That can happen by acting benevolently towards Palestine as a superior power in the region. Nettanyahu is as stubborn as a child when it comes to taking a varied measure in diplomacy.
israel can start by increasing the amount of work permits issued to palestinians up to previous levels. this is about 20% of the palestinian economy before the severe contractions produced by the blockade, so it's about 30-40% now. the land issue is a chimera to the real economic problems faced by palestine. their problems are not going to be solved by any amount of land concessions, because agriculture isn't the way out for millions of people with non-arable land. palestine's own use of the lands is very unproductive, they are better off letting israel use the land and collecting some rent for it.
use that funding for education and training, so palestinian laborers are more competitive as migrant workers in other parts of the world, and in israel itself.
i also have a feeling that the on the ground execution of policies such as cargo and personnel inspections at border crossings is too much on the strict side. when americans have problems with TSA agents, palestinians are going to have problem with the israeli blockade regardless of what a PR guy says about the policy.
for a situation like this, the more each side are isolated, the more radical they become and the stronger the extreme wings on each side. israel is not evil or whatever in taking a rigidly retaliatory stance per se, but it's also far far from what they should be doing. for starters, it does not help themselves with either palestinians or intl observers. it's not contributing to the situation in any way. they need to do a lot of outreach and image change.
On December 02 2012 06:44 ContrailNZ wrote: An ideal solution is for Palestine to merge with Egypt, and give a decent amount of land from Israel to Egypt at the border.
There will never be peace as long as it is in Iran's benefit to provide weapons through Egypt to Palestine.
The stalemate will just carry on and on until Iran runs out of oil money. Then the middle east goes to hell, with maybe Israel surviving.
That's a terrible solution. The best solution would be along the '67 borders. The majority supports it excluding Israel.
Because its unidentifiable and Israel won it in the war. Not to mention this still wont solve the Refugee issue.
You like to boast about Israel winning the war. You know, by talking to you and other Israeli posters here and in other threads, i got the impression that all of you think the only solution is a military one. Netanyahu thinks too as do 70% of your population (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162449#.ULqAJ4ey54M) I'd appreciate you to be honest and say it in full light.
Netanyahu is a warmonger, there is no denying, and when you have a warmonger leading a country with nuclear weapons, things don't tend to end well. With '67 borders the majority of the problems would be solved and it would be a great step toward more stability. Even Hamas accepts 67 borders. Obama too. Guess who doesn't. That sole fact explains how Netanyahu doesn't want peace.
The reason most people think that way is because of the second intifada, the situation in the west bank was the best it had ever been and relation were decent but there was discontent growing among the palestinians about corruption in the PA. It was a massive wave of violence that cost many lives, the Palestinian police that Israel armed and tried turn their guns on us. Not only that, we see what the Palestinian education system teach the children, the shows it broadcasts to it people its full of venom and religious zeal to kill Jews. These are some of the reason the majority dont ever see peace as possible, as the past has given us no reason to be optimistic.
You are demonizing entire people and you seem to silently consent what I said in the beginning. There are even shows and Jews talking about Muslims as if they were the worst of creation. But I am not using that as a reference to make my judgement of the whole nation. Your answers so far have been ''But, they did this'' only, how old are you?
for example:
24, but this isnt endorsed by the government or on national television.
Still it proves that there are extreme elements in your society too and that I do not make prejudices. You should too adopt the same attitude towards palestinians, because as long as you think that you are superior to them, peace will not happen and even if Israel crushes any of their opponents, tyranny can go only so far. It is in the longterm interest of both Israel and Palestine to reach peace as soon as possible.
The "funny" thing about that video is that it doesn't seem any different than my understanding of Radical Islamic people quoting scriptures from the Koran (Quran?) calling for the death of Infidels. Its so crazy to me that, in my assumption, the radical extremes of both groups are more alike than they'd probably care to admit.
This is the message that needs to take root in the hearts of Israel and Palestine, and the world in general.
Peace be upon you, I'm a real muslim and I've been reading this thread, but the straw for me to interfere into the discussion is when you said "Radical Islamic People" let me enlighten you that there is no such thing my dear friend. Radical Muslims is a nickname that is given to ex-Muslims, they're really ex-Muslims because they committ such gruesome acts that they apostatize from Islam and are nowhere near identifiable with the typical Muslim or the real Muslims.
Let me explain a little about Islam, because God does love those who research and not those who follow their religion blindly.
“And make not your own hands contribute to your destruction; but do good; for Allah loves those who do good.” (Quran, 2:195)
“Nor kill or destroy yourselves: for verily Allah has been to you Most Merciful!” (Quran, 4:29)
This is proof right here that Suicide is forbidden for us muslims, as God has given us a gift and it would be disrespectful to Him to kill yourself.
This is also the Qur'Anic verse I use to proove that Shia (A sect within Islam) who harm themselves and damage their own bodies in remembrance of a person who was violently murdered are disobeying the Qur'An. Note : Shia is majority in Iran, therefore I doubt you can call Iran an Islamic republic, because such an Islamic republic would be where everybody is equal, and you don't judge people, you don't violate people, atheists aswell as muslims have rights and everybody is a human, however I digress.
May I also inform you that Qur'Anic verses taken out of context sound weird or downright brutal? Well duh, they're taken out of context, give me a children's book and I can make it look like a porno or a murderer's book.
When the peace is established and Palestine is officially a country once again, alongside Israel or not. Then Islam will matter in the country. Because real Islamic rule is a beautiful thing and once existed in Jerusalem. Remember the three crusades? In which Frederick Barbarossa, Richard Lionheart and King Philip participated in?
Everytime the muslims captured Jerusalem, Jews, Christians and Muslims were free to enter and exit Jerusalem as they pleased. Need I remind you that everytime the Christian crusades captured Jerusalem the ground was painted red with muslim blood. That doesn't justify opinions like "All Christians are Muslim murderers" When you have empathy with your fellow man, that is when you've found your humanity.
There is a lesson to learn in this and that is never to generalise, God has taught us, you never know what is hidden in the hearts of some people, and all people are equal.
No matter how you twist and turn on it Israel is wrong in this issue and they should agree upon the 1967 borders. I can understand why Hamas are so angry, but that gives them no right to attack civilians, even Muhammad (SAW) told us before going to battle never harm innocents, women, children or elderly. And if Hamas do this, it doesn't represent Islam in any way, because they should know this if they are muslims.
Remember people Islam is perfect, Muslims are not. The only real representative of Islam is Muhammad (SAW) and if you want to gain a better understanding of Islam you can do so through reading his quotes. http://www.famousquotes.com/author/prophet-muhammad/7
And remember people, muslims don't hate Jews at all, real Jews are actually among the finest of people. Jews and Christians are named many times in the Qur'An and every real muslim knows that every real Jew/Christian is his brother.
"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve ." [Quran 2:62]
Those who say that a Muslim is allowed to kill someone just because they do not believe in Allah is gravely mistaken and infact spreading propaganda.
Qur'An 109:6 "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion."
Those who are misinformed about Islam, don't need to spread their false facts about it, you can ask a real muslim, he is obligated by his religion to inform you, and he has no right to judge you. Because God is love, and he is the most merciful, most forgiving.
One of the reasons I hate Israel is because they are bullies, offenders and hypocritical (Claiming to want peace, but doing nothing concrete to support that claim)
Regarding the past quote from someone who said that Israel pays back land they took. This looks completly fair doesnt it? Wrong, some land can be worth more than other land, and when it's Israel we're talking about they must certainly have some hidden agenda, probably something about being more valuable/strategical/tatical ground.
Note -------------------- We Muslims don't hate the Israeli civilians because we know they have no part in this, and they are people who want peace just like us, except the Israeli government who doesn't even have the word peace in their 2013 version of the dictionary. Need I remind you people that Moses, David amongst other Holy men are prophets in Islam too?
May God guide you all to his path of love, where if someone is struck, you feel their pain, that's the kind of empathy we want to see in the world, everybody loving each other despite their differences. That is what the prophet Muhammad (SAW) said to us, no man has superiority over another man, a black has no superiority over a white nor vice versa, nor does an arab have any superiority over a non-arab.
May God bless this earth so that it will be as peaceful as it can be, and then you will see the mercy of god, the most benevolent the most high.
Peace be upon you brethren, Muslim and non-Muslim. And remember the bad guys always try to make the good guys look bad, in movies and in reality. If you hate muslims, ponder a little, think about who wants you to think like that about muslims.
Also last note, Allah is not the name of our God. We don't worship another God than what you worship Jews and Christians, because we all know there's only one God, and Allah is just the only existant word for God in arabic, however that doesn't mean it's forbidden to say God.
Peace be upon you all sons & daughters of Adam, hopefully one day we will oversee our differences and realise that we're all brothers and sisters.
On December 02 2012 06:44 ContrailNZ wrote: An ideal solution is for Palestine to merge with Egypt, and give a decent amount of land from Israel to Egypt at the border.
There will never be peace as long as it is in Iran's benefit to provide weapons through Egypt to Palestine.
The stalemate will just carry on and on until Iran runs out of oil money. Then the middle east goes to hell, with maybe Israel surviving.
That's a terrible solution. The best solution would be along the '67 borders. The majority supports it excluding Israel.
Because its unidentifiable and Israel won it in the war. Not to mention this still wont solve the Refugee issue.
You like to boast about Israel winning the war. You know, by talking to you and other Israeli posters here and in other threads, i got the impression that all of you think the only solution is a military one. Netanyahu thinks too as do 70% of your population (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162449#.ULqAJ4ey54M) I'd appreciate you to be honest and say it in full light.
Netanyahu is a warmonger, there is no denying, and when you have a warmonger leading a country with nuclear weapons, things don't tend to end well. With '67 borders the majority of the problems would be solved and it would be a great step toward more stability. Even Hamas accepts 67 borders. Obama too. Guess who doesn't. That sole fact explains how Netanyahu doesn't want peace.
The reason most people think that way is because of the second intifada, the situation in the west bank was the best it had ever been and relation were decent but there was discontent growing among the palestinians about corruption in the PA. It was a massive wave of violence that cost many lives, the Palestinian police that Israel armed and tried turn their guns on us. Not only that, we see what the Palestinian education system teach the children, the shows it broadcasts to it people its full of venom and religious zeal to kill Jews. These are some of the reason the majority dont ever see peace as possible, as the past has given us no reason to be optimistic.
You are demonizing entire people and you seem to silently consent what I said in the beginning. There are even shows and Jews talking about Muslims as if they were the worst of creation. But I am not using that as a reference to make my judgement of the whole nation. Your answers so far have been ''But, they did this'' only, how old are you?
24, but this isnt endorsed by the government or on national television.
Still it proves that there are extreme elements in your society too and that I do not make prejudices. You should too adopt the same attitude towards palestinians, because as long as you think that you are superior to them, peace will not happen and even if Israel crushes any of their opponents, tyranny can go only so far. It is in the longterm interest of both Israel and Palestine to reach peace as soon as possible.
The "funny" thing about that video is that it doesn't seem any different than my understanding of Radical Islamic people quoting scriptures from the Koran (Quran?) calling for the death of Infidels. Its so crazy to me that, in my assumption, the radical extremes of both groups are more alike than they'd probably care to admit.
This is the message that needs to take root in the hearts of Israel and Palestine, and the world in general.
Peace be upon you, I'm a real muslim and I've been reading this thread, but the straw for me to interfere into the discussion is when you said "Radical Islamic People" let me enlighten you that there is no such thing my dear friend. Radical Muslims is a nickname that is given to ex-Muslims, they're really ex-Muslims because they committ such gruesome acts that they apostatize from Islam and are nowhere near identifiable with the typical Muslim or the real Muslims.
Let me explain a little about Islam, because God does love those who research and not those who follow their religion blindly.
“And make not your own hands contribute to your destruction; but do good; for Allah loves those who do good.” (Quran, 2:195)
“Nor kill or destroy yourselves: for verily Allah has been to you Most Merciful!” (Quran, 4:29)
This is proof right here that Suicide is forbidden for us muslims, as God has given us a gift and it would be disrespectful to Him to kill yourself.
This is also the Qur'Anic verse I use to proove that Shia (A sect within Islam) who harm themselves and damage their own bodies in remembrance of a person who was violently murdered are disobeying the Qur'An. Note : Shia is majority in Iran, therefore I doubt you can call Iran an Islamic republic, because such an Islamic republic would be where everybody is equal, and you don't judge people, you don't violate people, atheists aswell as muslims have rights and everybody is a human, however I digress.
May I also inform you that Qur'Anic verses taken out of context sound weird or downright brutal? Well duh, they're taken out of context, give me a children's book and I can make it look like a porno or a murderer's book.
When the peace is established and Palestine is officially a country once again, alongside Israel or not. Then Islam will matter in the country. Because real Islamic rule is a beautiful thing and once existed in Jerusalem. Remember the three crusades? In which Frederick Barbarossa, Richard Lionheart and King Philip participated in?
Everytime the muslims captured Jerusalem, Jews, Christians and Muslims were free to enter and exit Jerusalem as they pleased. Need I remind you that everytime the Christian crusades captured Jerusalem the ground was painted red with muslim blood. That doesn't justify opinions like "All Christians are Muslim murderers" When you have empathy with your fellow man, that is when you've found your humanity.
There is a lesson to learn in this and that is never to generalise, God has taught us, you never know what is hidden in the hearts of some people, and all people are equal.
No matter how you twist and turn on it Israel is wrong in this issue and they should agree upon the 1967 borders. I can understand why Hamas are so angry, but that gives them no right to attack civilians, even Muhammad (SAW) told us before going to battle never harm innocents, women, children or elderly. And if Hamas do this, it doesn't represent Islam in any way, because they should know this if they are muslims.
Remember people Islam is perfect, Muslims are not. The only real representative of Islam is Muhammad (SAW) and if you want to gain a better understanding of Islam you can do so through reading his quotes. http://www.famousquotes.com/author/prophet-muhammad/7
And remember people, muslims don't hate Jews at all, real Jews are actually among the finest of people. Jews and Christians are named many times in the Qur'An and every real muslim knows that every real Jew/Christian is his brother.
"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve ." [Quran 2:62]
Those who say that a Muslim is allowed to kill someone just because they do not believe in Allah is gravely mistaken and infact spreading propaganda.
Qur'An 109:6 "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion."
Those who are misinformed about Islam, don't need to spread their false facts about it, you can ask a real muslim, he is obligated by his religion to inform you, and he has no right to judge you. Because God is love, and he is the most merciful, most forgiving.
One of the reasons I hate Israel is because they are bullies, offenders and hypocritical (Claiming to want peace, but doing nothing concrete to support that claim)
Regarding the past quote from someone who said that Israel pays back land they took. This looks completly fair doesnt it? Wrong, some land can be worth more than other land, and when it's Israel we're talking about they must certainly have some hidden agenda, probably something about being more valuable/strategical/tatical ground.
Note -------------------- We Muslims don't hate the Israeli civilians because we know they have no part in this, and they are people who want peace just like us, except the Israeli government who doesn't even have the word peace in their 2013 version of the dictionary. Need I remind you people that Moses, David amongst other Holy men are prophets in Islam too?
May God guide you all to his path of love, where if someone is struck, you feel their pain, that's the kind of empathy we want to see in the world, everybody loving each other despite their differences. That is what the prophet Muhammad (SAW) said to us, no man has superiority over another man, a black has no superiority over a white nor vice versa, nor does an arab have any superiority over a non-arab.
May God bless this earth so that it will be as peaceful as it can be, and then you will see the mercy of god, the most benevolent the most high.
Peace be upon you brethren, Muslim and non-Muslim. And remember the bad guys always try to make the good guys look bad, in movies and in reality. If you hate muslims, ponder a little, think about who wants you to think like that about muslims.
Also last note, Allah is not the name of our God. We don't worship another God than what you worship Jews and Christians, because we all know there's only one God, and Allah is just the only existant word for God in arabic, however that doesn't mean it's forbidden to say God.
Peace be upon you all sons & daughters of Adam, hopefully one day we will oversee our differences and realise that we're all brothers and sisters.
You're right about the land value, Israel will not surrender land that will put it's cities within the range of hamas rockets. Whether that's fair or not is another issue altogether.
"Palestine is officially a country once again" Need I remind you that Palestine was never a country. It would be amazing, however, to see the population from gazaa, the west bank, and refugees in places like Syria manage to get together and form a legitimate government.
I'm Jewish, personally, from Morocco, and I've never seen Muslims as enemies, rather as the other primary descendancy of Abraham. Contrarily, I've typically thought of Christians as pretty horrible people throughout the crusades, countless pogroms, the more or less christian nazi party, and church rulings preventing jews from buying land. I mean, I live in canada and in Quebec jews couldn't buy land until the early 20th century. Look the "Ile des juifs" or "Island of the jews" in quebec.
There is one part of Islam that really bothers me though, that it's a fundamental part of your belief that every person in the world is born Muslim, and must be taught the right path through their lifetime.
That's a terrible solution. The best solution would be along the '67 borders. The majority supports it excluding Israel.
Because its unidentifiable and Israel won it in the war. Not to mention this still wont solve the Refugee issue.
You like to boast about Israel winning the war. You know, by talking to you and other Israeli posters here and in other threads, i got the impression that all of you think the only solution is a military one. Netanyahu thinks too as do 70% of your population (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162449#.ULqAJ4ey54M) I'd appreciate you to be honest and say it in full light.
Netanyahu is a warmonger, there is no denying, and when you have a warmonger leading a country with nuclear weapons, things don't tend to end well. With '67 borders the majority of the problems would be solved and it would be a great step toward more stability. Even Hamas accepts 67 borders. Obama too. Guess who doesn't. That sole fact explains how Netanyahu doesn't want peace.
The reason most people think that way is because of the second intifada, the situation in the west bank was the best it had ever been and relation were decent but there was discontent growing among the palestinians about corruption in the PA. It was a massive wave of violence that cost many lives, the Palestinian police that Israel armed and tried turn their guns on us. Not only that, we see what the Palestinian education system teach the children, the shows it broadcasts to it people its full of venom and religious zeal to kill Jews. These are some of the reason the majority dont ever see peace as possible, as the past has given us no reason to be optimistic.
You are demonizing entire people and you seem to silently consent what I said in the beginning. There are even shows and Jews talking about Muslims as if they were the worst of creation. But I am not using that as a reference to make my judgement of the whole nation. Your answers so far have been ''But, they did this'' only, how old are you?
24, but this isnt endorsed by the government or on national television.
Still it proves that there are extreme elements in your society too and that I do not make prejudices. You should too adopt the same attitude towards palestinians, because as long as you think that you are superior to them, peace will not happen and even if Israel crushes any of their opponents, tyranny can go only so far. It is in the longterm interest of both Israel and Palestine to reach peace as soon as possible.
The "funny" thing about that video is that it doesn't seem any different than my understanding of Radical Islamic people quoting scriptures from the Koran (Quran?) calling for the death of Infidels. Its so crazy to me that, in my assumption, the radical extremes of both groups are more alike than they'd probably care to admit.
This is the message that needs to take root in the hearts of Israel and Palestine, and the world in general.
Peace be upon you, I'm a real muslim and I've been reading this thread, but the straw for me to interfere into the discussion is when you said "Radical Islamic People" let me enlighten you that there is no such thing my dear friend. Radical Muslims is a nickname that is given to ex-Muslims, they're really ex-Muslims because they committ such gruesome acts that they apostatize from Islam and are nowhere near identifiable with the typical Muslim or the real Muslims.
Let me explain a little about Islam, because God does love those who research and not those who follow their religion blindly.
“And make not your own hands contribute to your destruction; but do good; for Allah loves those who do good.” (Quran, 2:195)
“Nor kill or destroy yourselves: for verily Allah has been to you Most Merciful!” (Quran, 4:29)
This is proof right here that Suicide is forbidden for us muslims, as God has given us a gift and it would be disrespectful to Him to kill yourself.
This is also the Qur'Anic verse I use to proove that Shia (A sect within Islam) who harm themselves and damage their own bodies in remembrance of a person who was violently murdered are disobeying the Qur'An. Note : Shia is majority in Iran, therefore I doubt you can call Iran an Islamic republic, because such an Islamic republic would be where everybody is equal, and you don't judge people, you don't violate people, atheists aswell as muslims have rights and everybody is a human, however I digress.
May I also inform you that Qur'Anic verses taken out of context sound weird or downright brutal? Well duh, they're taken out of context, give me a children's book and I can make it look like a porno or a murderer's book.
When the peace is established and Palestine is officially a country once again, alongside Israel or not. Then Islam will matter in the country. Because real Islamic rule is a beautiful thing and once existed in Jerusalem. Remember the three crusades? In which Frederick Barbarossa, Richard Lionheart and King Philip participated in?
Everytime the muslims captured Jerusalem, Jews, Christians and Muslims were free to enter and exit Jerusalem as they pleased. Need I remind you that everytime the Christian crusades captured Jerusalem the ground was painted red with muslim blood. That doesn't justify opinions like "All Christians are Muslim murderers" When you have empathy with your fellow man, that is when you've found your humanity.
There is a lesson to learn in this and that is never to generalise, God has taught us, you never know what is hidden in the hearts of some people, and all people are equal.
No matter how you twist and turn on it Israel is wrong in this issue and they should agree upon the 1967 borders. I can understand why Hamas are so angry, but that gives them no right to attack civilians, even Muhammad (SAW) told us before going to battle never harm innocents, women, children or elderly. And if Hamas do this, it doesn't represent Islam in any way, because they should know this if they are muslims.
Remember people Islam is perfect, Muslims are not. The only real representative of Islam is Muhammad (SAW) and if you want to gain a better understanding of Islam you can do so through reading his quotes. http://www.famousquotes.com/author/prophet-muhammad/7
And remember people, muslims don't hate Jews at all, real Jews are actually among the finest of people. Jews and Christians are named many times in the Qur'An and every real muslim knows that every real Jew/Christian is his brother.
"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve ." [Quran 2:62]
Those who say that a Muslim is allowed to kill someone just because they do not believe in Allah is gravely mistaken and infact spreading propaganda.
Qur'An 109:6 "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion."
Those who are misinformed about Islam, don't need to spread their false facts about it, you can ask a real muslim, he is obligated by his religion to inform you, and he has no right to judge you. Because God is love, and he is the most merciful, most forgiving.
One of the reasons I hate Israel is because they are bullies, offenders and hypocritical (Claiming to want peace, but doing nothing concrete to support that claim)
Regarding the past quote from someone who said that Israel pays back land they took. This looks completly fair doesnt it? Wrong, some land can be worth more than other land, and when it's Israel we're talking about they must certainly have some hidden agenda, probably something about being more valuable/strategical/tatical ground.
Note -------------------- We Muslims don't hate the Israeli civilians because we know they have no part in this, and they are people who want peace just like us, except the Israeli government who doesn't even have the word peace in their 2013 version of the dictionary. Need I remind you people that Moses, David amongst other Holy men are prophets in Islam too?
May God guide you all to his path of love, where if someone is struck, you feel their pain, that's the kind of empathy we want to see in the world, everybody loving each other despite their differences. That is what the prophet Muhammad (SAW) said to us, no man has superiority over another man, a black has no superiority over a white nor vice versa, nor does an arab have any superiority over a non-arab.
May God bless this earth so that it will be as peaceful as it can be, and then you will see the mercy of god, the most benevolent the most high.
Peace be upon you brethren, Muslim and non-Muslim. And remember the bad guys always try to make the good guys look bad, in movies and in reality. If you hate muslims, ponder a little, think about who wants you to think like that about muslims.
Also last note, Allah is not the name of our God. We don't worship another God than what you worship Jews and Christians, because we all know there's only one God, and Allah is just the only existant word for God in arabic, however that doesn't mean it's forbidden to say God.
Peace be upon you all sons & daughters of Adam, hopefully one day we will oversee our differences and realise that we're all brothers and sisters.
You're right about the land value, Israel will not surrender land that will put it's cities within the range of hamas rockets. Whether that's fair or not is another issue altogether.
"Palestine is officially a country once again" Need I remind you that Palestine was never a country. It would be amazing, however, to see the population from gazaa, the west bank, and refugees in places like Syria manage to get together and form a legitimate government.
I'm Jewish, personally, from Morocco, and I've never seen Muslims as enemies, rather as the other primary descendancy of Abraham. Contrarily, I've typically thought of Christians as pretty horrible people throughout the crusades, countless pogroms, the more or less christian nazi party, and church rulings preventing jews from buying land. I mean, I live in canada and in Quebec jews couldn't buy land until the early 20th century. Look the "Ile des juifs" or "Island of the jews" in quebec.
There is one part of Islam that really bothers me though, that it's a fundamental part of your belief that every person in the world is born Muslim, and must be taught the right path through their lifetime.
Peace be upon you my Jewish brother, descendant of Isaac.
Some land is more valuable than others, Israel will undoubtly want all the valuable land, and even land that will become valuable in the future, Israel is already scouting for this.
Wether or not Palestine was ever a country is debatable, wether or not Israel is, also is debatable.
The Roman empire named the place Phillistine long before Palestine was a british mandate.
You shouldn't see Muslims as your enemies, because then they're not Muslims, all Muslims who have researched into their religion far enough than to call themselves Muslims know that real Jews and real Christian's are our brothers. We are a peace-loving people and always have to be righteous and just, therefore after a lot of research I take my stand that Palestine is in the right in this conflict. There's Jews and Christian's from Palestine, but Israel never really adresses those minorities, they make it seem like there's only Muslims in Palestine. To be honest, Palestinian Jews are more deservant of the land that you call "Israel" when you've built settlements all over Palestine, and there's no longer anything to negotiate over, what will happen to the Palestinian Jews, who are Jewish in faith, but in nationality still Palestinian's? I have no doubt that if all of "Israel" was Palestine and it was under Islamic rule, Jews would be free to enter and exit whenever they wanted, that option doesn't exist for people today. If you try to supply the Palestinians with basic commodities and materials you are boarded by the Israeli Mossad, if you want to travel to Palestine to see the country you have to go through Israel, what justifies this isolation of the Palestinian people? Who decided suddendly that Israel can play a daddy with people's lives and arrest them on administrative detention without charge's or evidence, or isolate a complete people and refusing outer assistance, that's purely inhumane and that in itself justifies everything the Palestinian people is trying to do to break free from it, except murder civilians and innocents or suicide bomb yourself. We must never lower our level to that of the Israeli government.
Frankly I'm trying very hard not to generalise the soldiers of Israel, but I can tell you I've seen a few videos here and there where Mossad are chasing helpless young boys 10-14 years old, arresting them (Crazy I know) and beating them on public streets.
Everyday is a struggle for the Palestinian people, and think about this, if they are willing to damage themselves to that extent physically, think about how much Israel has damaged them mentally. Poor Palestinians.
It doesn't matter what a few Christian's did, forgiveness is a thing from God, I forgive them and may God forgive them. And I know that most Christian's are kindhearted loving people, so that's why you can't generalise.
Yes we muslims believe that every human should be adviced to start loving God and what-not, but that's just because of our love for our fellow man. Hellfire is excruciating and punishing, It's so painful we don't even wish it upon our enemies, therefore we try to save some people from it, like if they've never heard about Islam and stuff, give them a chance to read, Maybe they'll become an even bigger believer than a guy who has been a muslim for 10 years for example. However we are not allowed to force people into Islam, and you're not allowed to become a Muslim for somebody's reason either, your choice must be entirely voluntary, same with the veil in Islam that the women wear, it's completly voluntary and a man is not allowed to force one upon his wife.
One thing that disturbs me a great deal is Israel always try to victimize itself, but not agreeing at all to peace talks and negotiations, because they feel that they don't need to compromise at all, however no matter if you're David or Goliath, you have to compromise, and not compromising is Pride, and Pride is of the Devil.
Comparing the living conditions of Israel and Palestine is enough argument in itself why these two shouldn't negotiate alone, Israel doesn't need anything from Palestine, they've already showed they don't give 2 cents about what the rest of the world thinks is right and not right. What we need is some big superpower country like the U.S. to put pressure on Israel saying, we're tired of bailing you out, if you want to keep causing trouble in a geographically uncomfortable zone, deal with the repercussions. Who decides that the Israeli people are worth helping but not the Palestinians?
All humans are equal, have that as a base. Then think, would anybody accept this if it happened to my country? Just because they aren't a "First World Population", doesn't mean they're not worth helping.
Peace be upon you my Jewish brother, may God enlighten you.
Who decides that the Israeli people are worth helping but not the Palestinians?
Ideologically, the Israeli's believe in Democracy/Capitalism, whereas many Palestinians are more apt to follow a theocratic rule. Also, my enemy's enemy is my friend kind of thing.
Who decides that the Israeli people are worth helping but not the Palestinians?
Ideologically, the Israeli's believe in Democracy/Capitalism, whereas many Palestinians are more apt to follow a theocratic rule. Also, my enemy's enemy is my friend kind of thing.
Back in the cold war Israel was our friend and the other arab states picked the soviets as their ally?
Who decides that the Israeli people are worth helping but not the Palestinians?
Ideologically, the Israeli's believe in Democracy/Capitalism, whereas many Palestinians are more apt to follow a theocratic rule. Also, my enemy's enemy is my friend kind of thing.
Are all Palestinian civilians your enemies? There's dictators who are loved by their people, a dictator isn't always bad. I can tell you that extremist Israelis (Zionists) are just as dangerous as extremist Palestinians if not worse due to their weapon accessibility, one might argue that Netanyahu is a dictator.
I hope you will reform your thoughts and ideas about the Palestinians, it's truly evil to generalise like you do. Did you do a field research and ask every single one of all the Palestinians if they like Democracy or Theocratic rule? Let me remind you that Capitalism has killed more people than Dictatorships, this is proven.
Can you please link that poll or whatever you base that "Palestinians are more apt to follow a theocratic rule"
Peace be upon you. May God help you see how the evil people are trying to split us humans up, and May God help you understand that nationality is just a folder we put people in to separate them from each other. Ideally the whole world should be one country where all people love each other, but since this won't happen, I'm going to support Palestine for now.
Who decides that the Israeli people are worth helping but not the Palestinians?
Ideologically, the Israeli's believe in Democracy/Capitalism, whereas many Palestinians are more apt to follow a theocratic rule. Also, my enemy's enemy is my friend kind of thing.
/facepalm
How do you know that? Did you met them? Or do you just watch tv news considering is the one and only objective truth?
You obviously never met any ultra orthodox jew neither any normal muslim to be so much manichean.
Sadly, and for you information, there are theocratic fans in both sides (remember who killed Itzaac Rabin, nobel price) and MOST of people are exactly like you, they want to live in peace, feed and grow their children under a roof.
While all these people will have greedy leaders (elected) who feed their anger against the other side, nothing gonna change.
US is just throwing oil in the fire. As usual in this case.
I just unveiled a new horrible video by the zionists residing in Israel (Note ; Not all people who live in Israel are zionists, and not all Jews are zionists. Real Jews = Good People, Zionists = Disgusting people)
Like the zionists weren't fighting enough battles at once, now they've started with anti-african propaganda. Do you see these kinds of stuff from the Palestinians?
May God give me patience, and help me bear the anger I feel when I see this kind of behavior against your creation O great Lord, help us against this inhumane tyranny we are forced to bear everyday, help our brothers and sisters :'(
EPT
